How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Brandon Michael Rohe, modified 2 Years ago at 8/7/21 10:49 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 8/7/21 10:49 AM

How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Posts: 17 Join Date: 6/1/21 Recent Posts
I had a really strange event where I had at least four cessations within a roughly 30-45 minute period. Is this normal for some people? The cessations were rather short in duration. 
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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Years ago at 8/7/21 11:33 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 8/7/21 11:30 AM

RE: How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Posts: 368 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
I wrote this about an experience I had:

I experienced this phenomena where it was as if I was having flashes of experiencing myself outside of my body as another me for a split second before reconverging into one me. It was like my sense of self was being split in two. It seemed like I had visual flashes of my body that gave this strong sense.  I was experiencing those flashes every few seconds or so, and I had a period of about 5-10 minutes where the flashes of two me/one me were happening so rapidly that that seemed to take up my whole field of experience and I was investigating what it felt like and just being swept into it. Cessations would happen rapidly, one after another, and at the crescendo of this thing I had this this sense of being obliterated or annihalated by the cessations and it seemed like there was more cessation than non-cessation they were so rapid and it was distinctly creepy and scary but was also pretty blissful.

I chalk this up to tuning the mind to conformity knowledge and wiggling between the no-self door and frution. So I guess your answer is "instantaneously/as long as conformity knowledge lasts" YMMV.
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Brandon Michael Rohe, modified 2 Years ago at 8/7/21 11:46 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 8/7/21 11:46 AM

RE: How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Posts: 17 Join Date: 6/1/21 Recent Posts
I've had a similar experience to what you described. Thanks for sharing 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 8/7/21 4:42 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 8/7/21 4:42 PM

RE: How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Yes, there was a phase when I lost count because they were so many. 
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Eudoxos , modified 2 Years ago at 8/10/21 2:56 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 8/10/21 2:47 PM

RE: How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Posts: 136 Join Date: 4/6/14 Recent Posts
I had a really strange event where I had at least four cessations within a roughly 30-45 minute period. Is this normal for some people? The cessations were rather short in duration. 
This is in fact one of the common "determination" (aditthana) exercises in the Thai-Mahasi lineage, after reaching equanimity. For some reason they call it "phenomenon of arising and ceasing" (which has nothing to do with A&P), momentary unconsciousness or (as I understand it) "short" fruition or almost-fruition (if that makes sense; most resources imply that conformity necessarily falls into fruition the next moment). If someone knows the origin of the "arising and ceasing" wording, I will be glad to hear that.

In "Path to Nibbana" (pg. 31-32) by Ajahn Jodok of Wat Mahathat (ven. Phra Dhamma Theerarach Mahamuni, also known as Nanasiddhi / Yanasiti etc; main teacher of Ajahn Tong Sirimangalo of Chom Tong):
Exercise 14
  1. Perform the mindful walking first, then proceed as follows:
    • (a) Make a wish that in a period of one hour, the phenomena of arising and ceasing shall appear at least five times.
    • (b) If within this hous the phenomena of arising and ceasing appear distinctly, at least five times and possibly as many as sixty-five times, reduce the period of the exercise to 30 minutes and make the wish that within these thirty minutes the phenomena of arising and ceasing shall appear to you several times.
    • (c) Make a wish in the same manner and reduce the period of the exercise down to 20-15-10-5 minutes. Within 5 minutes the phenomenon should appear at least twice, but it may appear as many as six times.
  2. Alternate walking and sitting exercises for twenty-four hours.
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A Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Years ago at 8/11/21 1:52 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 8/11/21 1:49 PM

RE: How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Posts: 881 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Exercise 14
  1. Perform the mindful walking first, then proceed as follows:
    • (a) Make a wish that in a period of one hour, the phenomena of arising and ceasing shall appear at least five times.
    • (b) If within this hous the phenomena of arising and ceasing appear distinctly, at least five times and possibly as many as sixty-five times, reduce the period of the exercise to 30 minutes and make the wish that within these thirty minutes the phenomena of arising and ceasing shall appear to you several times.
    • (c) Make a wish in the same manner and reduce the period of the exercise down to 20-15-10-5 minutes. Within 5 minutes the phenomenon should appear at least twice, but it may appear as many as six times.
  2. .Alternate walking and sitting exercises for twenty-four hours.
Does this happen during 1st path review, 2nd path review, or 3rd path review. What are the instructions?
I did something rather similar to this and it ended well
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Eudoxos , modified 2 Years ago at 8/12/21 2:20 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 8/12/21 2:20 AM

RE: How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Posts: 136 Join Date: 4/6/14 Recent Posts
Not only in review, but also in the first course. There are 12 exercises (as I see it the, ex 1 is for access concentration, then 1 per ñana, up to ex 12 for equanimity), then 3 determination exercises (13, 14, 15). Exercise 13 is a wish of clearer 3 characteristics ("May I be clearly aware of the coming-into-being and passing-away of all mental and physical phenomena appearing to the mind during twenty-four hours") , 14 is the one above.

Exercise 15 is for phala-samapati (extended fruition), wishing to attain "steady concentration" for 5 minutes, increasing the wish to 10, 15, ..., 1 hour, 2, 3, ... 24 hours (!) if it happens. "The number of minutes and hours is to be reckoned from the point of steady concentration with nonconsciousness onwards. In such a condition, we do not experience any feeling. The period wished for being fulfilled, consciousness will return of its own accord as in waking, but this is not waking."

See  this thread about some details how this is done in Chom Tong (which is similar). As far as I know, there is no discrimination about paths; similar to Mahasi, where you just do noting and let it take care of the paths.
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A Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Years ago at 8/12/21 9:42 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 8/12/21 9:40 AM

RE: How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Posts: 881 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Is there one for re-observation?

I once hit equanimity after/during 2nd path and rather than investigate, I got a job at a local retailer. Well, re-observation/desire for deliverance came into focus again, so I quit my job and drove down to a local Thai monastery. I started doing walking meditation in the parking lot. I interacted some with the monks, but mostly just trying to accept water, food as they were offered to me. I stayed out in the parking lot all night and eventuallly hit reobservation again due to physical fatigue. That was after getting rained on in the parking lot. These exercises that you mention sound a lot like what I was doing (the arising and ceasing of equanimity). It worked but I eventually dropped down into the lower ~nanas and stayed there for a long time. Now I am 3rd path going strong with periodic glimpses into 4th. I don't know if I will ever hit solid 4th path, because it is too hard to diagnose.

Edit. I might have also been seen as the recipient of a medicine buddha practice on the part of the monks, as I was accepting food and nourishment from them (not what you typically see?)
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Eudoxos , modified 2 Years ago at 8/13/21 2:07 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 8/13/21 2:07 AM

RE: How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Posts: 136 Join Date: 4/6/14 Recent Posts
The exercise for re-observation is just to make a wish for patisankha, forget about the wish and continue with the practice emoticon

The insight stages in this particular lineage are technically related to the way of walking/sitting (such as how many sub-steps one does, in a more fine-grained way than for Mahasi, for instance), but that is just a teaching tool, as I understand it.
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A Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Years ago at 8/11/21 4:45 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 8/11/21 4:45 PM

RE: How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Posts: 881 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Also, is this something you plan ahead for, such as a retreat?
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Ben Sulsky, modified 2 Years ago at 8/12/21 7:38 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 8/12/21 7:38 AM

RE: How quickly can you go from fruition to the next fruition?

Posts: 170 Join Date: 11/5/19 Recent Posts
Lots of repeated fruitions definitely a thing.

For me, fruitions are always very quick, <1 second, but they do vary.
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