curious about this mapping

steven brent cundiff, modified 9 Years ago.

curious about this mapping

Posts: 40 Join Date: 10/11/11 Recent Posts
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End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven brent cundiff:
Where would you map this....


As your terminology is radically different from ours, you will likely have to provide more specific information in terms that we are familiar with.

Have you read MCTB? If so, where do you think all this maps to? Something in MCTB? Beyond it? Perpendicular to it?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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The first step would be to read MCTB so as to understand our terminology, and then (given your understanding of MCTB and our terminology) hazard a guess.

Briefly, to try to place you on the MCTB enlightenment / AF continuum...are you free of all experiences of fear, misery, unhappiness, existential angst, or emotional suffering of any kind? If not, to what extent to do you have these experiences? Do you have them but feel untouched by them (as if they pass over you without affecting you)?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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Is every moment of your experience absolute perfection?

If so, describe it specifically.

If someone broke into your home, intending to kill you, how would you react / feel?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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Can you visualize such a situation?

In any case, predict what might happen and let us know. Surely you are able to make predictions about ways that events might unfold.

EDIT: For clarity, you may take the situation to be that someone breaks into your house and is in the process of bludgeoning you to death. What kind of reaction might you have? What would you think, do, or feel?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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What else do you think is left for you to do in terms of practice? Why have you asked us to map your experiences to what we are familiar with?
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josh r s, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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what practices did you use to get to perfection? I'm always interested in what people have used to end suffering so that i can use it or at least learn from their perspective.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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As you appear to claim to be completely liberated, it is not my place to judge your attainment. Perhaps you can find someone else on the DhO who will.

If your descriptions are accurate, it may well be that you are completely liberated.

We would surely be interested in specific, concrete practice advice if you have any to share. How do you think you could have made the path go more quickly for you, if you were able to advise yourself in the past?
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Meggo mu, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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What you said about mind is making me think about turiya/ Nirvikalpa sahaja samadhi?
Do you recognize your experience in this talk?
http://www.well.com/user/jct/Talk.htm

just curious emoticon
Meggo
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
I would have told myself that liberation is not something you find or aquire...its something you uncover....liberation comes in surrender, not searching...searching and great effort is needed to get you to the gate, but it will never get you through...."you" cannot pass through this gate...only by letting go of you can you enter without entering.

through right practice once you have found the essential stillness that is you and let this stillness go in complete surrender you are enlightened....there is nothing more than this....I spent close to 13 years searching for something more than this after I found it, 19 years in total...I would spend a part of everyday nonbeing, surrendered away into nonbeingness...and then I would come back and continue searching for something more than this...finally I gave up the search Becuase I could not continue...I had no more left in me, I had utterly lost hope and gave up...I thought to myself that I will surrender into nonbeing this last time and "be" and search no more...and so i did....in that moment the whole universe opened up before me as if my awareness was rolling out across all existance...I could see everything...including the fact that there was nothing more to find or uncover than what I had already uncovered or surrendered into...I saw that for many years now the only thing that kept me enslaved was my own searching, I was the searching, the observing and there was nothing else, so i let it go, and with that came liberation.

Great effort and great searching is needed, but these things will never set you free....effort is needed but effort is not enough....effort will get the fruit ripe, but will not make it drop from the tree.

The only way you can know for certain that it is time to give up effort is that you cannot go on...at the time where effort becomes hopelessness and you absolutely cannot continue, then it is time to let effort go.

This is what i would have told myself....


Do you think that you literally could have attained your current state at any point beginning 13 years ago by allowing your mind to incline in a certain direction? Was all your progress between then and now merely "psychological", eventually allowing you simply to surrender when you ran out of things to aim at? I (being skeptical of this claim) assume there must have been some fundamental developmental progress going on...in fact, I assume an enormous amount of such progress.

If you assert that this is true, how would you have explained to yourself what it was that you would have needed to do or not-do? (In other words: how to do or not-do it?)

Have you ever experienced something similar or identical to your current state in the past, even if momentarily?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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The question I was interesting in hearing your thoughts on was how you could have made the process go more quickly (if you could have), and what you would have told yourself in order to make that happen. Is your claim that you could not have made it go faster in any way you know of?

Also, I am still interested in your answer to my other question:

Have you ever experienced something similar or identical to your current state in the past, even if momentarily?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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I would like to respond to this in more depth, but (as I do not have time now) I merely want to highlight your claim that there is no difference between the deepest samadhi, and the state of perfection you claim now.

Are you familiar with the terminology of the Pali suttas? Can you describe this using terminology related to jhana? Is the deepest samadhi 'awareness-release'?

I have claimed that the practice of jhana does not have to be about producing "becoming" (= deluded self-experience), and speculated that in the deepest form of it, there would be no "becoming" (thus, a foretaste of full liberation). Others appear not to agree. It appears you may be able to confirm this in your own experience, which is interesting with respect to showing the value of jhana.

Can you still enter samadhi? If so, how is it the same or different?
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
At the eighth jhana there is choiceless still awareness without form or identity that is the unwitnessing witness...in the ninth jhana there is no jhana...there is the cessation of still formless awareness...one could say this is entered without entering by awareness release, or surrender of the Brahma, it is like a death really...you enter without entering Becuase the enterer is let go...


1) Can you still experience the jhanas now?
2) Can you describe the 9th jhana in more detail? How does one enter/not-enter? Is there still awareness left? Anything perceived? Consciousness?
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Daniel Johnson, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
The eigth and ninth jhanas cannot be discussed or described....the eighth can be pointed to...but not accurately described...it is beyond mind, what is beyond mind cannot be accurately discribed or understood by mind....but the 8th jhana can be pointed too. The ninth cannot even be pointed to...it is a death really...a void beyond the idea of void....it cannot be even pointed to with any clarity...there is no awareness there....it cannot be entered Becuase when you pass there you are no more...not even god union is there...it is beyond infinate formless eternal presence....there is no entering...Becuase to enter you have to go where the eternally still unwitnessong witness is no more.


Anyone else see the irony in the fact that you spent a whole paragraph discussing and describing things which you claim can't be discussed or described?

emoticon
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
The eigth and ninth jhanas cannot be discussed or described....the eighth can be pointed to...but not accurately described...it is beyond mind, what is beyond mind cannot be accurately discribed or understood by mind....but the 8th jhana can be pointed too. The ninth cannot even be pointed to...it is a death really...a void beyond the idea of void....it cannot be even pointed to with any clarity...there is no awareness there....it cannot be entered Becuase when you pass there you are no more...not even god union is there...it is beyond infinate formless eternal presence....there is no entering...Becuase to enter you have to go where the eternally still unwitnessong witness is no more.


Any practice advice on how to go about precipitating the 9th one?

In this 9th one, is there some kind of experience? Or is there no experience whatsoever? Say there is a clock in front of you. Then you enter the 9th jhana. When the eyes open, the clock hand has moved to show 30 minutes have gone by. It is like passing out + waking up an instant later? No experience whatsoever, simple unconsciousness, as if you blinked an eye and when it opened 30 minutes passed? Or is there something in between?

steven cundiff:
it cannot be entered Becuase when you pass there you are no more...

Since you are already no more, what is the experience like entering it, now?

steven cundiff:
Best for you to gnosis this for yourself though....comming from me its really just a bunch of spiritual gobbledee goop lol....these words matter little...you directly finding out matters a lot...

That is my plan.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
There is no practice that will get you to the 9th...the 9th is not a place you get to...this is the problem with discussing...you can't even really discuss how to enter...you can only point at the way of entering Becuase it is not an entering....closest thing to say is that you need to be ready to die...to accpet death...Becuase it is a surrender...but not the kind of surrender where you still exist in some capacity and just surrender yourself to whatever happens...it is the kind of surrender where you let all beingness go...it is a kind of passive suicide really....but not really lol...you can only point the finger lol...here is the difficulty...the 8th jhana has no gulf to cross...nothing to penetrate deeper into...nothing to go beyond...so when you are there how can describe how to go beyond where there is no-thing to go beyond lol.


can you attempt to describe it with the thought exercise i outlined? or try it now.

Say there is a clock in front of you. Then - 9th jhana. Then - no 9th jhana. The clock hand has moved to show 30 minutes have gone by.

Is it as if you blinked your eye, and when the eye opened, 30 minutes had passed? Or is there some difference?
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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I am indeed doing everything I can to get there.

steven cundiff:
In the deepest samadhi it is as you described...in deepest sleep it is the same...the only differance between deepest sleep and deepest samadhi is that in samadhi you enter conciously and you retain a formless identityless lessened, but even that can be let go....in the ninth jhana it is differant...try to imagine you are in deepest sleep, but deeper than sleep...Becuase you are not existing...but at the same time you are also completely aware and awake and concentrated in this one single moment but not concentrated or attached to anything inside or out...can you imagine such a thing? Can you imagine existing and not existing at the same moment?


i can certainly not imagine it, but i think i experienced it once, though only for a very brief period of time. it was just about the most relaxing thing possibly imaginable, to not exist for a short period. i have not experienced it since, though i want to in order to get a better look at it (and to use it to disappear for good).

you say that you are in this state of nonbeing being already, that you experience it continuously. how does the 9th jhana differ from your default state of nonbeing being?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
basically I was asked to speak within a specific thought paradigm so he could try to prove his point either to himself or others whom he had been debating with lol...so I spoke the best analogy available in that thought paradigm....though I am not sure whether I gave him a victory or a defeat lol.


There is a backstory here (regarding whether one free from suffering is able to attain jhanas, but also going much deeper than that) which you are not yet privy to.

EDIT: To the extent that you would like to be privy to the backstory, I or others will be happy to give you a summary of it. To the extent that your claims about yourself are credible, you may be able to provide evidence on a number of issues for which doubt seems to stand in the way of practice for many practitioners or would-be practitioners.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
End in Sight:
steven cundiff:
basically I was asked to speak within a specific thought paradigm so he could try to prove his point either to himself or others whom he had been debating with lol...so I spoke the best analogy available in that thought paradigm....though I am not sure whether I gave him a victory or a defeat lol.


There is a backstory here (regarding whether one free from suffering is able to attain jhanas, but also going much deeper than that) which you are not yet privy to.

EDIT: To the extent that you would like to be privy to the backstory, I or others will be happy to give you a summary of it. To the extent that your claims about yourself are credible, you may be able to provide evidence on a number of issues for which doubt seems to stand in the way of practice for many practitioners or would-be practitioners.


How can I help with this?...what is standing in the way of practice?


Perhaps I shouldn't have volunteered to summarize it, as it is a LONG story.

If you read MCTB (which is the guiding light of the DhO) you will find that the DhO did not recognize the end of suffering as a possible goal. This changed in the last few years, slowly.

The basic problem is that there is a fellow named Richard (whose writing you read here: http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/aprecisofactualfreedom.htm) who has claimed to have reached the end of suffering, but claimed that it has nothing to do with any other spiritual tradition, and has come from his own newly-discovered method.

This is a source of difficulty for many people here in a variety of ways (depending on the individual).

If you would like to be of assistance, it will help you to read through that website, so as to understand the social dynamics involved. We can talk more after that.

You will also need to validate your claims about your own experience in a more explicit way than what we've asked you on this thread.

...as for me, the main thing you can do to help is to give me any advice you might have on remaining in the 9th jhana for a longer period.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
Tell me about this...how did it happen...what were the circumstances?


Here is the description I wrote shortly after (from my practice thread):

the approach: sitting with open-eyes. i was wondering how exactly 'i' investigate things... it seems like thoughts are a constant part of my contemplations, so i wondered if it was actually useful.. then i wondered if it was actually not the volitional thinking that was doing anything, but rather, that thoughts arose when in a skillful absorption (perhaps as a side-effect and not the main event), and that i mistook cause + effect and started fostering thoughts whenever i meditate, perhaps to trigger the skillful absorption. maybe that's why i always have trouble quieting the monkey mind - cause of attachment to thoughts.

anyway i started wondering if i entered a kind of thinking-jhana.. this led to contemplation on the 7 factors of enlightenment, more below. but anyway i was sitting with that in mind, and i suppose i started getting into arupa jhanas.

at some point something started happening that has before - the visual field got a bit weird. perception diminished, but not entirely - visual field was blurry-ish, not really well-perceived. perhaps 8th jhana. then certain aspects of the visual field started patterning themselves - this happened before, too - in this case, the pattern of the wooden hardwood floor started appearing everywhere. however, this time, some conditions were different, and the process was able to keep happening. it soon came that the entire visual field, which i could see crisply + clearly - as in not faded or dimmed or wobbly - was just a repeating pattern of piece-of-hardwood-floor. quite surreal indeed. then (and this might be out-of-order): a bit of a weird slip where all 6 senses integrated - might have been 'being' leaving - the disappearance of all vedana, along with coarse-rough ever-present touch sensations in my head, and then even that visual perception, along with any auditory or tactile perception, stopped happening. it was really clear, incredibly incredibly relaxing - and if being was indeed absent, then this state is a true refuge, so that makes sense.

i dont know how long the lack of being part lasted, though i somehow got the impression it wasn't long.

interesting thing was that, firsrt the state was entered, then there was a 'pang' of becoming in the 'middle' of it (but not really 'middle'). normally it would be associated with the center of my head, but that wasn't being felt, so it was really just somewhere out of space. then the pang faded. a very similar pattern occurs all the time - i associate it with releasing some clinging, though not sure if that's true. then the pang was totally gone, back into the pure absorption, then that, too, faded.


upon exiting it, slowly sound started coming back, as if from pure white noise, granulating into static, then the static disappearing into the quiet of my room.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
It seems that wherever I go I am beset by folks trying to get me to communicate what its like lol....


Well, in this case you came here and presented yourself for questioning.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
There is no practice that will get you to the 9th...the 9th is not a place you get to...this is the problem with discussing...you can't even really discuss how to enter...you can only point at the way of entering Becuase it is not an entering....closest thing to say is that you need to be ready to die...to accpet death...Becuase it is a surrender...but not the kind of surrender where you still exist in some capacity and just surrender yourself to whatever happens...it is the kind of surrender where you let all beingness go...it is a kind of passive suicide really....but not really lol...you can only point the finger lol...here is the difficulty...the 8th jhana has no gulf to cross...nothing to penetrate deeper into...nothing to go beyond...so when you are there how can describe how to go beyond where there is no-thing to go beyond lol.


So, I can attain the 9th jhana at will, but only for a split-second. Your description matches my experience. There is no method of entering and no preparation. One just gives up, and absolutely everything that comprises normal experience disappears. Insofar as I can see, there is consciousness without any distinguishing characteristics, and nothing else. (Not even a feeling or sense of consciousness, just some kind of residual awareness that has no discernible object.)

What I would like to know is how to enter the 9th jhana for longer, given that I can already enter it at will for very short periods of time.

I tried meditating up through the other jhanas, but surprisingly, this didn't work in the way I expected.

I also tried entering the 9th jhana split-second after split-second, just doing it for like 30 minutes with no other goal, and it seemed in some way that it would elongate (the apparent gaps in experience between moments of not being in 9th jhana appeared to get longer), but it did not seem to be the best approach. On the other hand, these longer moments of being in 9th jhana really did seem to melt my defilements away in a powerful and palpable way...hence the interest.

Much of my practice right now outside of formal meditation is constantly entering the 9th jhana, split-second after split-second. I'm surprised how powerful just a little touch of this jhana is. Perhaps it's because it's all-or-nothing (no "light" experiences of it).

Suggestions?
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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End in Sight:
So, I can attain the 9th jhana at will, but only for a split-second. Your description matches my experience. There is no method of entering and no preparation. One just gives up, and absolutely everything that comprises normal experience disappears. Insofar as I can see, there is consciousness without any distinguishing characteristics, and nothing else. (Not even a feeling or sense of consciousness, just some kind of residual awareness that has no discernible object.)


What is it a consciousness of? (I'm not sure whether one can have consciousness without objects.)

Could either of you describe how this differs from a very hard 8th jhana?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
End in Sight:
So, I can attain the 9th jhana at will, but only for a split-second. Your description matches my experience. There is no method of entering and no preparation. One just gives up, and absolutely everything that comprises normal experience disappears. Insofar as I can see, there is consciousness without any distinguishing characteristics, and nothing else. (Not even a feeling or sense of consciousness, just some kind of residual awareness that has no discernible object.)


What is it a consciousness of? (I'm not sure whether one can have consciousness without objects.)


Perhaps think of it as the object being "consciousness without object" if that helps.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Could either of you describe how this differs from a very hard 8th jhana?


There is an (imprecise) sense in which one could say that the 9th jhana isn't even an experience. There isn't anything there. But, something remains to distinguish it from an absolute lack of all experience.

Didn't you say that you attained it? Perhaps it's hard to recollect? I myself can't think about it in any way, as there is nothing to think about...I enter it constantly during the day but no amount of entering it gives me any understanding of it (as there is nothing to understand). There may be a reason that it was named by saying what it lacks (perception and feeling).
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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End in Sight:
Didn't you say that you attained it? Perhaps it's hard to recollect? I myself can't think about it in any way, as there is nothing to think about...I enter it constantly during the day but no amount of entering it gives me any understanding of it (as there is nothing to understand). There may be a reason that it was named by saying what it lacks (perception and feeling).


I did. But someone brought up how I would distinguish it from a hard 8th jhana, and I was unable to answer. To me, the distinction was that there was no 'being' - it was like a PCE in that sense, total complete absence of being - yet maybe that could happen from a hard enough 8th?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
End in Sight:
Didn't you say that you attained it? Perhaps it's hard to recollect? I myself can't think about it in any way, as there is nothing to think about...I enter it constantly during the day but no amount of entering it gives me any understanding of it (as there is nothing to understand). There may be a reason that it was named by saying what it lacks (perception and feeling).


I did. But someone brought up how I would distinguish it from a hard 8th jhana, and I was unable to answer. To me, the distinction was that there was no 'being' - it was like a PCE in that sense, total complete absence of being - yet maybe that could happen from a hard enough 8th?


Well, Steven (brilliantly supporting my claims and winning me brownie-points emoticon ) has stated that the deepest samadhi is similar or identical to his experience now, so if it were a hard enough 8th jhana...complete absence of 'being', why not?

8th jhana has a way of manifesting in extremely hard ways, in my experience...not that it does this at all times, but it has a tendency to (more than other jhanas).
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
Forget jhanas....you opening for brief moments into your essential "I amness" that is the source of your individuation....it is the unmoving being that your mind and identity flow from...your mind/body/thoughts are the smoke comming from the incense....this i amness it the still giving off the smoke in silent stillness.

Surrender the residual awareness...this residual awareness is your essential I amness before your I amness moves into identity....it is your essential formless unmoving self....surrender this too.


As I cannot do that in the 9th jhana (as the experience is just a "shell" with nothing inside, so there is no opportunity for any mental activity to exist), how would you like me to do this?

EDIT: To be clear, I can only say it is a "shell" in retrospect, or that there is consciousness in retrospect. In the experience there is nothing I can describe because there is...nothing.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
Sorry, my battery died before I could finish that last post....

The problem is that you are not staying still long enough that you can understand the nature of this residual awareness in the emptyness...your getting flashes of interupted minding, and as a result it feels like emptyness....but its not emptyness....

Try this....observe the observer....

Observe and object.....then close your eyes and observe what is inside you that is doing the observing....then observe what is doing that observing....keep trying to peel back the layers by observing what is observing the observing....keep going deeper into it....eventually you will come to a dead end where there is only empty formless stillness with no identity that is observing, or witnessing without seeming to be engaged in witnessing...you uncover your true nature as the still silent witness before it moves into a you....just stay there witnessing, not moving...by and by you will be able to stay there longer and longer....observe the observer until you get to the root of observing....you can change the words too "be aware of the awareness" and produce the same result....whichever words fit you best....do this for now...the rest becomes easy from here.


It would be more helpful for me if (not knowing about my practice thus far) you simply assumed that I was describing things accurately, and gave me advice on that basis.

As for what is doing the observing...the result of my practice to this point is that I find nothing whatsoever doing any observing (but a "residue" of a debunked still observer that remains, which does not appear as an observer, but as some kind of residual mind-movement).

So...9th jhana...
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
From what you have written here you have not gnosised the 9th....you have only briefly touched the 8th...and you have only had a glimpse of your true nature and haven't even recognized it.


I will keep your opinion in mind.

steven cundiff:
There is a bit of a language gap here....what you define as the silent still observer is just your individuation being still....


This conversation will not be productive unless you know about my practice thus far. So, how much do you know about my practice thus far?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

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steven cundiff:
End in Sight:
steven cundiff:
From what you have written here you have not gnosised the 9th....you have only briefly touched the 8th...and you have only had a glimpse of your true nature and haven't even recognized it.


I will keep your opinion in mind.

steven cundiff:
There is a bit of a language gap here....what you define as the silent still observer is just your individuation being still....


This conversation will not be productive unless you know about my practice thus far. So, how much do you know about my practice thus far?


You haven't told me much about your practice,


And this is why I am surprised that you have the inclination to tell me about my own practice, and to tell me about the correspondence between the words I use and the words you use. (Indeed, this is how the thread began...noticing the lack of any easy correspondence between your vocabulary and ours.)

steven cundiff:
Please tell me about your practice thus far...start at the beggining a go through to where you are now...and give me the milestones of gnosis you have come to along the way.


Instead (as I am not asking you to be my teacher, but to give me straightforward advice about the 9th jhana), I will describe my experience of jhanas 5-9 for you.

5: A perception of boundless space, in which there is no perception of a body or of form, nor any "fake" perception of space that is internal to one, nor any "fake" perception of space that is somehow a quality of attention.

6: A perception of boundless awareness underlying space (without the perception of space, with the same qualifications as before).

7: A perception of an object called "nothing" underlying boundless awareness (without the perception of awareness, with the same qualifications as before).

8: A perception that is not of an object called "nothing" and is not of any sense-object either. (without the perception of "nothing", with the same qualifications as before)

9: An experience that has nothing whatsoever to describe it in a helpful way, aside from what it lacks...perception and feeling.

If you are interested in stating whether you think these descriptions are or aren't accurate (and, if not, why not), that would be interesting to me; otherwise, let me know your thoughts on the 9th jhana.

If you are not interested in addressing either of those issues, I suspect we have approached our respective practices too differently for this conversation to be especially helpful to me, and will not waste your time by asking you to spend further time discussing the subject of my own practice with me.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
steven cundiff:
I am curious though...why is it important to you to try and be in the 9th jhana for longer...what is your purpose or desire in this?....what is the outcome you are looking for?


Liberation.

As I said, 9th jhana appears to melt defilements. (As the suttas suggest.)

steven cundiff:
Also, why is it important to you to have these states so clearly defined?

How do you percieve that having these things clearly defined will help you?


Well, you seemed to want to talk about what is or isn't which jhana instead of offering me practical advice, so I hoped you would offer me practical advice if I described my experiences.

As for why I expect that practical advice regarding the 9th jhana will be helpful, see above.

In any case, thanks for the conversation.
C C C, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Hi steven, I'm enjoying this thread. Can you tell me about your earliest spiritual experience, how old you were, whether you attended retreats, whether you work a paid job, what type of work you do now and previously, whether you have a relationship/family, and if so, how well that functions. Thanks.

One other thing: did you get any depression or 'dark night of the soul' symptoms?
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Jacob Henry St. Onge Casavant, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 698 Join Date: 5/22/10 Recent Posts
Hi Steven,
fascinating story! I wonder, do you have a good recommendation for an online source for the VBT? I found a few through googling but I'm not sure of the quality, and would prefer to ask someone who's gotten somewhere with those practices. So any good sites or downloads you'd recommend?
--Jake
C C C, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
I like Osho's approach. It has a gentle and natural quality to it. Even when he attacks certain other methods of spiritual inquiry (eg. yoga), you can sense he doesn't move out of peacefulness to do it.... unlike myself. emoticon
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
[Affectively tinged opinion alert - Seasoning required due to excessive subjectivity]

Hey Steven,

Going by the words you use, the way you describe this and, what is admittedly a subjective impression based on a handful of forum posts on a screen, I think you're either the "real deal" or an extraordinarily good liar which, as you know, would be a complete waste anyway. You're giving some good practical advice, as far as I can see, and your use of the Sufi quote pricked up my ears straight away.

I like the way you mention the process as one of doing and undoing, this sits well with my current practice and experience so far. Good to hear your take on the thing, hopefully you'll stick around and be able to help others along the way.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
If there is nothing you want, and you judge yourself to be experiencing constant perfection, I am curious why you haven't assumed that you are completely liberated, and asked us what "completely liberated" means to us, rather than asking us to map your attainment in words that might be assumed to be quite imprecise to us.

Just curious, is all.

In any case, I am still looking forward to hearing a precise description of your experience. What is this moment for you like right now? In what way can it be said to be perfect?

Can you visualize things?

If you read MCTB concerning "vibrations", what is your experience of this phenomenon like?

Share some phenomenological details with us. Go beyond what I've asked and tell us about your experience.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Welcome, steven,

A few questions for you:

1) Why did you do all of that, that you described? What made you find the "still unmoving center" in the first place?

2) How do you define suffering?

3) Is there any suffering in your experience?

4) How has the experience of suffering changed over the course of the past 13 years?

5) Read a precis of actual freedom - what do you think of the words there?
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Hi Steven,

Welcome to the DhO.

Do you have, gross or subtle, any mentally felt sense of: self / self-obsessing chatter / being / location in the world / subject to objects / duality / inner world / me-ness / instinctual passions / any affectively felt mind state / moods / being of any kind / being the absolute / being one with everything / being one with anything / being connected to everything / being space / being infinite consciousness / being no-thing-ness / being the void / being anything / imagination / the flow of time / existing / craving of any subtle and gross kinds?

Nick
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
steven cundiff:
Nikolai .:
Hi Steven,

Welcome to the DhO.

Do you have, gross or subtle, any mentally felt sense of: self / self-obsessing chatter / being / location in the world / subject to objects / duality / inner world / me-ness / instinctual passions / any affectively felt mind state / moods / being of any kind / being the absolute / being one with everything / being one with anything / being connected to everything / being space / being infinite consciousness / being no-thing-ness / being the void / being anything / imagination / the flow of time / existing / craving of any subtle and gross kinds?

Nick


There was a time when this body/mind became still, and then beingness in oneness was observed....but in the last act of surrender of the self this oneness and still silent beingness was let go...now there is the unbeing being....beyond oneness...the unwitnessing witness....unwitnessing Becuase there is no witnessing or witnesser.

Neither being nor nonbeing....nor not being or not nonbeing.


Hi steven,

Thanks for the reply. Is that last line of neither being nor nonbeing etc an experience or is it an attempt at describing something indescribable for you? Is there any affect to that experience? Does it feel like there is 'presence' to that non-being nor being? Do you experience any emotions whatsoever subtle or gross?

Thanks.

Nick
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Daniel Johnson, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Do you have, gross or subtle, any mentally felt sense of: self / self-obsessing chatter / being / location in the world / subject to objects / duality / inner world / me-ness / instinctual passions / any affectively felt mind state / moods / being of any kind / being the absolute / being one with everything / being one with anything / being connected to everything / being space / being infinite consciousness / being no-thing-ness / being the void / being anything / imagination / the flow of time / existing / craving of any subtle and gross kinds?

Nick


I think Steven answered this question in his first post:

"Now I am am openess of death/unbeing/void that flows through openly in a continuous whole"
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Daniel Johnson:
Nikolai .:
Do you have, gross or subtle, any mentally felt sense of: self / self-obsessing chatter / being / location in the world / subject to objects / duality / inner world / me-ness / instinctual passions / any affectively felt mind state / moods / being of any kind / being the absolute / being one with everything / being one with anything / being connected to everything / being space / being infinite consciousness / being no-thing-ness / being the void / being anything / imagination / the flow of time / existing / craving of any subtle and gross kinds?

Nick


I think Steven answered this question in his first post:

"Now I am am openess of death/unbeing/void that flows through openly in a continuous whole"


Are they mentally felt?
steven cundiff, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: curious about this mapping

Posts: 40 Join Date: 10/11/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Daniel Johnson:
Nikolai .:
Do you have, gross or subtle, any mentally felt sense of: self / self-obsessing chatter / being / location in the world / subject to objects / duality / inner world / me-ness / instinctual passions / any affectively felt mind state / moods / being of any kind / being the absolute / being one with everything / being one with anything / being connected to everything / being space / being infinite consciousness / being no-thing-ness / being the void / being anything / imagination / the flow of time / existing / craving of any subtle and gross kinds?

Nick


I think Steven answered this question in his first post:

"Now I am am openess of death/unbeing/void that flows through openly in a continuous whole"


Are they mentally felt?


I'm sorry but that question is an abstract.....the mind is not a thing that feels....the mind is a movement happening...part of the movement is feeling...but its all just a movement....either there is movement of not....sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't.

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