RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

thumbnail
Jonas Emil Eriksson, modified 21 Days ago.

Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 28 Join Date: 2/28/15 Recent Posts
I applied for a retreat recently and I got rejected for the second time. They said Im mentally instabile and that "people with difficult dissabilities sometimes have unreasonable expectations of attainment".

So Im diagnosed ADHD. So is it even possible to practice? I feel verry disencouraged to continue practicing, not only because of this responce, but just, fuck, I reached my limits, havent I? Is there any point? Now suicide seems like a good deal, why arrent we all doing that? Is it immoral? I mean it feels a little hard to say it, but also it is hard to continue life. Also I dont getting depressed by saying it, its just like, what is right acctually? Im sorry if I harming someone, but Im a bit confused, or just uncertain.

I say this even though I been experiencing; when I felt completely convinced that there is no separation between me and the environment, or between life and "death". I done lots of retreats, like more then 10, and long retreats like 3 months. I been using most psychedelics all the way to the most sophisticated/latest/advanced/strongest.
Emil Jensen, modified 21 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 287 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
Bruva!

I recognize this despair and I feel for you. It's not too long since I had a trip down that alley myself. Who knows, maybe I'll be back soon.

Maybe you know already, and maybe you just need someone to remind you that feeling depsair like this is pretty much a part of it all. And what to do about it? Well, can one do anything but to march on? The way out...is through. If you ask me...

So you got rejected for a certain type of retreat that you wanted to do. Twice. That sucks!
May I suggest you do another retreat?
How about one more of the 10+ you did?
How about getting in contact with an experienced teacher?

The ways you can go about your path are practically infinite. Remove the option for a certain retreat, and you still have infinite things to do about it.

And about the experiences you've had - you know you shouldn't cling on to them.
Perhaps this frustration is trying to tell you that you may be holding on to something which is gone or going away. Could that be?
I guess that would make sense in the whole 'attachment is suffering' scheme of things.


With strength and goodwill to you. May you power through!
thumbnail
David Matte, modified 21 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 89 Join Date: 8/3/19 Recent Posts
I would say it makes it a bit harder but still very possible. Check out a meditation teacher Jeff Warren who has ADHD.  Also sorry to hear about that disencourgaging feedback you received from the center. Best not to take it to heart though like all the things that blow in life. Remember the path and fruit of the path is  non attachment. I hope that you keep trying and apply at another retreat center, perhaps at the center where you were previously accepted.

​​​​​​​Wishing you ​​​​​​​peace
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 20 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
you should become vegetarian. maybe for a day or two.
thumbnail
Stefan R, modified 20 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 168 Join Date: 3/28/21 Recent Posts
Without knowing anything more than what you've said here:
They said I'm mentally unstable and that "people with difficult disabilities sometimes have unreasonable expectations of attainment".


That is pure bullshit and toxic. It's horrendously irresponsible of them to say what they did in the way they did it.  ADD is not a severe psychological disorder at all and is very treatable and manageable. People with ADD are some of the fiercest concentrators I know. The biggest issue with ADD is switching gears, not being in the gears themselves.  I would hazard a guess based on my clinical psychology experience that the only barriers to reaching high attainments would be clinical narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, and perhaps severe cases of schizophrenia and/or dissociative disorders. I think everything else is fair game, so long as there's a baseline of reasonable intelligence (IQ >70).

​​​​​​​Ignore these clowns. 
thumbnail
Jonas Emil Eriksson, modified 20 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 28 Join Date: 2/28/15 Recent Posts
Thank you for your response. Well Emil Jensen, death is perhaps a way out instead of marching on. I think you miss my question, the only way out is through. Thats the thing, is it possible to get through? It feels like everyone is lying to me, like a grand conspiracy, trying to convince me that it is possible to get completely free. I have only managed to attain something seemingly freedom momentarily, I have managed to leave a lot of shit behind, but still, Im not clean. So, is the final goal; death? And I cant understand why that would be wrong at this point of my life, I think I went through the whole field of morality and concentration, wisdom, that is possible with this body. Just being here at the verge.

Buddha said according to the Pali canon, that; Parinibbana is attained at death. He also said; that after the break up of the body, remaining sankharas will bring rebirth in hell, ghost realm, animal realm, human realm, deva realm or brahma realm. Or is it a mistake in translation, so that "break up of the body" acctually means what one experience in the human body when sankharas are dissolved. Whatever this matter to me? For me, it is only theory, I cant just believe something. I have to come to insight my self or just forget about it. And I have done both coming to insight and forgotten about it, if there is any difference in the end? So...

Thank you Stefan R for your encouragement.
Another retreat, perhaps, I will see. The 10+ was the one I was rejected from. I thought to gather some people to make an own retreat after christmas here in Sweden, but its just... difficult to make it happen... Also, my doubts... So? I have no idea, I met so many teachers. This is a dark night process I guess, but still, life goes like that and its painful... I think I just sit and meditate now and  then what?...+02()&%&0?

Become vegetarian? Why do you say so? However I use to act vegan, except when Im in situations that makes me uncertain/confused/compassionate of other concerns or just, rarely, careless...

If you chose life, open your heart, do all it takes to make it happen!
Dan Latner, modified 20 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 19 Join Date: 3/17/21 Recent Posts
I think Shinzen has said that he probably would have been diagnosed with ADD these days. 

I'll echo David in suggesting Jeff Warren.
Also, this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixxMyjejn38&t=68s


I strongly recommend "Scattered Minds" by Gabor Mate, and anything else to get yourself "trauma-informed".  Reading that book triggered what I assume was an A+P event for me. Self knowledge via ADD!

I reckon in the right contexts that ADD has a lot of overlaps with being 'mystical'. 
Oh and don't suicide please! Reach out if you wanna chat.
Soh Wei Yu, modified 19 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 38 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Jonas Emil Eriksson I applied for a retreat recently and I got rejected for the second time. They said Im mentally instabile and that "people with difficult dissabilities sometimes have unreasonable expectations of attainment". So Im diagnosed ADHD. So is it even possible to practice? I feel verry disencouraged to continue practicing, not only because of this responce, but just, fuck, I reached my limits, havent I? Is there any point? Now suicide seems like a good deal, why arrent we all doing that? Is it immoral? I mean it feels a little hard to say it, but also it is hard to continue life. Also I dont getting depressed by saying it, its just like, what is right acctually? Im sorry if I harming someone, but Im a bit confused, or just uncertain. I say this even though I been experiencing; when I felt completely convinced that there is no separation between me and the environment, or between life and "death". I done lots of retreats, like more then 10, and long retreats like 3 months. I been using most psychedelics all the way to the most sophisticated/latest/advanced/strongest.
I attained equivalent of MCTB 4th path, 10+ years ago. Have ADHD-PI. I know at least one other person with this condition and had the similar attainment as me, he is also a co-moderator of my Awakening to Reality group and admin of the Dzogchen subreddit group (he also recently added me to their moderator team).
thumbnail
Jonas Emil Eriksson, modified 17 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 28 Join Date: 2/28/15 Recent Posts
I think I have ADHD-C which is similar or same (?) as ADD I think.

I still have a bit difficult to identify these paths and mapping in general. I got no idea where I am. I can only recon, mind body, cause effect, 3 characteristics, A&P, Dark night, Equanimity. And a little bit of the samadhi jhanas, even though my samadhi varries in character and I cant identify the various levels.

Now Im really messed up with my samadhi, being passionate with dreaming or something. It varies a lot, when I been sitting recently I got into acces concentration or maybe a weak first jhana, I dont know. Its like Im getting into the brahma viharas  or just a bit more calm. Sometimes it getts like darkish calm/barren but still samadhi and sometimes light lofty. But it rarely happened to me that consciousness completely shift, flipps over to a complete different spacious experience of body and mind, which I have come to identify as jhanas from my own experience. Hence, one time Jhana 1, another time Jhana 2, another time Jhana 3 or 4 or 5 dont know. But it feels like it just happens by chance, with practice I just get a more stabile samadhi but no skills in attaining higher/deeper jhanas.

This year I have more frequently droped into "the present moment", contentment, the now. Sometimes a slight buzzing pain, sometimes more lighter sensations. Whatever that is in mapping? emoticon :/ emoticon I dont know! I think 1,2 or 3 (or 59th) path? Hmm... damn it. At least I know consciousness is shifting a lot in character emoticon Which is good news. But it doesnt keep me away from longing to die, coming home, no body, no mind.
George S, modified 17 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 2020 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Awakening can be likened to a kind of death but it’s not the suicide kind, the death of the body (which let’s face it is going to happen soon enough anyway). It’s more like the death of a certain deep-seated idea of self, a dream maybe or an idea about how life or the world should be. It’s not something to be afraid of, because it’s the death of something which never really lived (hence it’s also called awakening to the unborn). But it’s also not something to be desired, because it’s seeing things they way they already are (without a self). It is a coming home, but still with a body and mind, coming home to the way we always were but had become too lost or confused or cynical to see. You could even call it making friends with death. 

I was feeling very depressed and suicidal a few years ago, convinced I was a failure and my life was over. But I still had some residual interest in the mind and awakening, even although I thought it was probably no more than self-serving bullshit by that point. Still, I reasoned, if I was willing to go through the painful and messy business of killing my body (and putting others through that), why not truly let go first and see what it is like to die before dying, even if just out of a morbid sense of curiosity? The great thing about hitting rock bottom is there is nowhere else to go, you can now look the great matter of life and death squarely in the eye without flinching. After all, if you’re willing to contemplate killing yourself, what else do you have to lose?   
Soh Wei Yu, modified 17 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 38 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Speaking of death, was reminded of a writing by the dharma friend/admin of Dzogchen subreddit I spoke of above, an e-mail sent from him to another dharma friend back in 2012 describing his awakening:

"That experience was fairly spontaneous, if I was to try to pin point what brought it on exactly I'm not sure if I could. But for about a year on and off prior to that I'd been practicing samatha or shine meditation which pretty much consists of just sitting quietly, eyes open looking at an object or space and not doing anything at all. If a thought arose I'd just let it pass and self liberate immediately without following it. From doing that my clarity and presence increased a lot. I had two smaller non-self experiences before the big one during the time I was meditating regularly everyday. I also was doing a lot of self inquiry. The day that happened though I was doing some inquiry into thought related to the present moment which was actually very forced so I'm not sure how it brought that anatta experience about. I just focused strongly on the present moment and took the attitude that there was only right here, and right now, that only what was being immediately experienced existed and it was all that ever had and ever would (which is true but felt opposite of how I usually had functioned). So I focused on that every thought that arose was the only thought there is, none before, none after. And there could only be one thought in that moment. Since there was only that one it wasn't like there was a thought waiting to arise and/or one that had left, there was no coming or going, just was was here now. And for some reason the present thought just became noise that didn't mean anything, like gibberish and it was all of a sudden apparent beyond a shadow of a doubt that there had never ever ever been anyone here at all. Thought stopped and seeing was happening but no one seeing, hearing happening but no one hearing etc.. There was only experiencing and my absence felt like I had died, or it was just seen that I had never existed which was crushing and upsetting in a way but at the same time it was beautiful.

So it was weird because I had been forcing an inquiry but the experience came on spontaneously. I'd actually deviated from dzogchen a little time before that because until this point I hadn't had any substantial experiences to validate the teaching at all. Right around that time I had been reading a lot of this guy nisargadatta who isn't even a Buddhist teacher but speaks really well about the non reality of the self... But after that experience I got more into dzogchen then I had been before and that's because it wasn't just a theory or idea anymore I saw that it was real. And I saw that it wasn't just that experience but that's how reality manifests at all times.

As far as trying to create that experience that's the trouble, which it seems you already see... That any effort to "get there" is effort by the self and therefore spoils it from being seen. This is why dzogchen speaks of "doing nothing" or "effortlessness", so that meditation you're doing where you rest in awareness is good... and adding the insight of "in the seeing just the seen" etc.. Is good too. Adding the timelessness aspect to that is also key, (which is also effortless because it's always only now, but that isn't always apparent). The feeling that there's an individual that spans time is a big part of it. What helps is understanding that it's only thought that says "I".. The "me" is just a thought, the thought isn't commenting on a "me" which is actually present apart from the thought. It's just a thought. So unless a thought is arising to claim authorship, it's already just seeing, just hearing. And the seeing, hearing etc.. Isn't inside or outside, it's just present. Just 'right here'.. immediate. Experience is just that. Seeing doesn't see objects, the objects are the seeing. Hearing doesn't hear sounds, the sound is the hearing... no separation.

But in trying to understand it like that, it's still the same old problem of the self trying to get it. Any effort made is blocking it from being made apparent when set up as 'you' trying to 'get there' in time. And this aspect of the teaching is where (for example) Jax was right (although he took it to an extreme and I ultimately didn't agree with his view).

Understand that 'you' are just a thought. The self is merely thoughts commenting on each other but thought A is never there at the same time as B so there is no consecutive chain of thoughts.

So luckily being that the 'self' is only a thought(idea, concept), when thoughts aren't being reified as belonging to a self they are just merely thoughts.. Just noise.. No one is thinking them, they just appear and vanish in the same moment. And for this reason merely resting in "awareness" or your "wakefulness" is actually allowing these faculties to arise in their suchness. If you rest in that unfabricated and uncontrived natural wakefulness and allow everything that arises to self liberate, the goal is to see that there is only this flow of arisings. The second part of your meditation where that element of pre-conceived forcing of the no-self view is taking place can actually go either way. It is conceptual and can be a potential trap but it all depends on how it's related to; if as the meditation is going on and the "no-self view" is being forced the seemingness of the forcing comes across as "you" doing the forcing, then it becomes a trap.. because only "you" could force the view of "no-you"... it's a trick of the self and actually keeps the illusion of self solidified and alive through that forcing. On the other hand, if while the forcing is going on, a recognition that in the forcing the forcing itself is simply spontaneously appearing itself and is spontaneously self-liberated then that is maintaining the view. The relaxed aspect of dzogchen is very key and is meant to reveal that the sum of these "aggregates" don't create a self as an entity, but that the self IS simply these aggregates. I saw a talk the other day where someone put it like this; in a water molecule there is 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen. The atoms don't bond to form this 'thing' called a water molecule.. the water molecule IS these constituent atoms. I don't really do the analogy justice but here is a link to the mans talk http://www.ted.com/talks/julian_baggini_is_there_a_real_you

Another thing that I noticed in your message above is where you're saying that the 5 senses produce their respective objects without a self to be found. This statement is actually stacking too much on top of the natural state as it is... if you can notice in immediate experience; the 5 senses as faculties are not present... the '5 senses' designation is merely a convention, which is useful for communication but lacks existence apart from it's conventionality... likewise objects are designations implemented merely for conventional purposes(not to be denied, but seen for what they are as merely conventions). You're already stepping toward trying to see the absence of the self in experience, but it would be helpful to see the senses and objects as empty as well. So what this means is that in your immediate experience there is no evidence of the self and there is no evidence of the senses and their respective objects. In immediate experience it is "just this" no self, no senses, no objects, just the natural state which is beyond designation. If you try to hard to "see it", this is again the self trying to "see it", it needs to be understood that it is already always the case. The senses don't apprehend objects... the objects ARE the senses, the senses ARE the objects, and they are not two... but even this is saying too much.... it's just BOOM right there, happening now. In the seeing just the seen, doesn't imply that there are "things" which are seen... it just implies that it all contracts into a zero dimensional suchness... there's no objective happening... it's full union.

Now as for the "awareness"... the awareness aspect can be solidified as a substantiated 'thing-ness' as well... which was my beef with Jax's insight again to use an example. The problem with the awareness is that due to certain kinesthetic sensations approximate to what we take as our body, we feel that awareness is seated 'here' experiencing surrounding phenomena. So awareness is considered to be stationed or localized 'here' instead of 'there'. But this feeling of 'hereness' is just this kinesthetic sensation coupled with the illusion of time. In truth the feeling of looking out from the vantage point of 'here' is just a non-local "presence", there is no here or there... here and there are merely thoughts. When the feeling of presence is felt, it doesn't claim to be here or there or anywhere... if this can be intuitively understood then it can be seen that what appears, appears to itself and no distance from itself.

Coming back to the stabilization of "thought-flow" and clarity in samatha or shine meditation... this stabilization reduces the projection of designations by thought so experience can be rested in nakedly without too much distraction and for this reason it is very helpful. From there, resting in this "presence" you see that the "presence" IS the "appearances" and vice versa. Also, mere mindfulness will help stabilize this, even if it's contrived or forced.... just remain present at all times... ChNN says to do it like you're driving a car... just remain aware and focused at what's happening around you, just be here. Even if it feels like there's a "you" attempting to "be here" just let it be. In time this will also dawn true insight and the point is to have that innate and true insight apart from all of this intellectual crap i'm talking about... in just remaining present the meditation will start to work for itself and true insight will dawn on it's own accord... so try not to be distracted, and practice that non-distraction like you're doing it to save your life... like if you become distracted you'll be killed, make it of utmost importance... maintaining that flow. Now when ChNN and dzogchen talk about remaining undistracted they don't mean merely remaining present, they're talking about not separating from the non-dual natural state once that becomes apparent. But luckily since the self and the senses and objects are mere imputed conventions, in the act of remaining present, the natural state is already implied... and the contrived mindful presence will just strengthen the connection with the natural state... it's also almost like a process of reconfiguring, removing habits and tendencies to reify dualities which make a subject-object experience seem real. In time with being present, it will just happen... the feeling of being a subjective entity will just go. The "all-ground" or feeling of substantiated awareness happening here will melt into the natural state. Don't be too contrived in your mindfulness, just be present, be relaxed, allow appearances to self-arise and self-liberate and remove the notion of time and space, know that this is indeed it right here, right now, but "feel" that... don't convince yourself intellectually, be in the flow, be the flow.

"...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. but I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.."" 
thumbnail
SushiK, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 143 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
Thanks for sharing this, it's really really nice.
Was it stream entry or 4th path?
Soh Wei Yu, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 38 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
SushiK
Thanks for sharing this, it's really really nice.
Was it stream entry or 4th path?


Stream entry in the sutta sense. (explanation: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20 , http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/08/insight-buddhism-reconsideration-of.html )

4th Path (Arahat) in terms of MCTB definition.
thumbnail
Ni Nurta, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 763 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Stream entry in the sutta sense.
4th Path (Arahat) in terms of MCTB definition.

FYI Daniel 4th path is attainment of Theravada developed mind tech, not merely development of something good enough not to have worry about improving it. There are many ways to accomplish the same goal, doesn't have to be this one. Knowing goal might be goal by itself but this is least often picked goal. Most 'insight' is just bunch of experiences being interpreted the wrong way. Experiences which are numerous. People have different descriptions of their path because their paths while resolve around things they try (and imho fail in funny ways emoticon) and then put in to the same words are based on different experiences reflecting their own mind more than anything else. Experiences anyone with the right skillset could copy off them and master with fraction of effort needed to develop them, despite these experiences were bred in environment they fit the most. Exactly because they fit elsewhere they are easier to master. What I am hinting at here?

1st path is defined as 3 fetters removed. Here are fetters with my comment.
- identity view - too much obsession about self and what you and if you are imho
- doubt in buddha/dharma - is there right understanding of buddha/dharma in the first place? If not then obviously it is because there is doubt in it
- attachment to ascetic/ritualistic practices - this one I won't touch on this site...
The comment apply to almost everyone here.
thumbnail
Ni Nurta, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: Enlightenment possible with ADHD?

Posts: 763 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Maybe the practice should not be to get Enlightenment but cure yourself from ADHD?
And while at it first necessary step is to observe it and understand it.
You know, baby steps. It is also something that can teach you problem solving skills.

I know it is all portrayed as "sit long enough without attention wandering, there will be blip-blip-bleep and some realizations. This happens but this is just a nervous system effect, insights and realizations are as stupid as idea that there is solid self. Do you see any self in your experience? I think not. If whatever you feel is experience of tension in body because you learned to gauge your state by tensing yourself. People learn about meditation and think "maybe this will helps me get relaxed and not tense so much?" and after all the dogma they end with some silly idea that self doesn't exist which is as wrong as taking these body experiences as self, which is exactly the same idea.

Anyway, just learn to relax and be concentrated at the same time and be critical of all the nonsense you read and hear and you might have a shot at true realizations.

Breadcrumb