RE: Polly Ester’s practice log 13 - Discussion
I noticed that before hearing the pointer. Noticing it was what made me look into Dzogchen where I first heard the pointer. I thought there must be some dharma that adresses this, so I was searching for it, and then found the pointers to what I had experienced. I'm empirically driven. 
And I do practice noticing the silence in the midst of everything (I kind of include distractions in everything ). The reminder was because I need to let go of a habitual pattern of believing that I'm bored and need to engage with distractions when that's actually not true. I'm not looking to be a renounciate, just find a better balance. Due to living with this wiring in this society, I have developed so many coping strategies. Many of them are pretty good, but some really aren't. If you knew my bad habits, in one of those phases, I think you'd see what I mean. But thanks for believing that I'm as sane as you. 
And I do practice noticing the silence in the midst of everything (I kind of include distractions in everything
). The reminder was because I need to let go of a habitual pattern of believing that I'm bored and need to engage with distractions when that's actually not true. I'm not looking to be a renounciate, just find a better balance. Due to living with this wiring in this society, I have developed so many coping strategies. Many of them are pretty good, but some really aren't. If you knew my bad habits, in one of those phases, I think you'd see what I mean. But thanks for believing that I'm as sane as you.
Hey Shargrol, I appreciate it a lot that you are reading my log, but please watch out so that you don't accidently put it in the recycle bin.
Now I know why it was so difficult to follow attention ... well above my paygrade . Just my 0,002 cents: (1) when the sight/awareness is expanded to the sides (180º degrees), the attention doesn't jump that much; (2) changes in attention sometimes feel as subtle tension and other times as subtle relief
. Just my 0,002 cents: (1) when the sight/awareness is expanded to the sides (180º degrees), the attention doesn't jump that much; (2) changes in attention sometimes feel as subtle tension and other times as subtle relief
Ah. Yes, that's scary indeed. This interface is not very userfriendly.
Interesting. That makes sense. Thanks for putting it into words!
So now here is another idea for you: can you treat attention itself as another bandwidth of experience? So, in other words, in most experiences there will be part of reality which will be the center of attention and there will be the rest of reality which seems less important and is "around" the center of attention.
Yes, but not as well as I hope, because I don’t always notice when I get caught up in being narrow, especially in daily life. I suppose my ADHD plays in here too. But I practice it a lot, and it gradually gets better.
This is true for vision obviously, but it is also true of thought, for example. The mind is exuding thoughts and embryo-thoughts all the time, that's just what it does. It's like the skin which is always giving off moisture, it's just what skin does but it's not obvious until you put your hand in a plastic bag, for example
Yes, I have noticed that, but it’s often something that I realize only after it has been going on for a while. I tried to describe the subjective experience of that above. It’s interesting! I’ll certainly explore it more.
During a sitting practice, see if you can notice how the mind --- on it's own --- puts attention on a series of mind objects. Notice how no effort is needed as the mind switches from one object to another. The goal here is to hold the mind and attention loosesly enough that you allow it to do what it wants.
This is one of my absolute favorite practices.
(Yes, this will feel "wrong" for a while because of a series of unconscious beliefs like "a meditator needs to control their attention" or "to be a smart person I need to direct my attention" or "if I'm not in control, I'll go insane" or "this isn't mediation, I'm not going to learn anything from this". Those are all thoughts and beliefs with an emotional reaction... no big deal. Don't try to ignore or fix it, just allow those experiences to happen and notice how attention is drawn to those thoughts. But again, hold the mind loosely enought that rather than being sucked into discursive thinking, you are mostly paying attention to how the attention moves. Yes, that previous sentence is paradoxical, but it is sort of like learning to balance: you learn to balance by paying attention to what it feels like to balance. At first it's short little moments, but over time it becomes more frequently and possible to do more easily...)
It doesn’t feel wrong at all. I love it. Depending on what people mean by sanity, I find that it’s often overrated anyway. For me, meditation started out as the haven where I wouldn’t need to be in control, so I have done much more of this loose kind of practice than controlled ones. The dog training approach always seemed to me like a recipe for developing shadow sides.
What this practice does is ultimately show you that attention isn't exactly the same as "you" but it is something that appears within experience and has always been assumed to be "me". "I'm aware" "I'm distracted" "I'm paying attention" "I'm noticing" We say those things all the time, but it begs the question: what knows awareness, distraction, attention, and noticing? All of those things are distinquishable as experiences _within_ the mind, so they cannot be what mind _is_.
Yeah. It’s all just aware. It’s aware before the echo of making it ”mine”, when that mode is on.
As you notice how attention moves itself from mind object to mind object, you'll also pick up on the very subtle but hugely significant "urges" that seem to _cause_ attention to move. These urges are a subtle holding of something, a subtle avoiding of something, a subtle interest/emphasizing of something, a subtle distraction by a busy switching between objects, and a blanking out by holding but unfocusing from an object. Many times we _identify_ with these urges as self, but actually all of those things are distinquishable as experiences _within_ the mind, so they cannot be what mind _is_.
Yes. This is where my edge is. Michael calls this ”dropping the ball”. I still have subtle clinging to movement, to embracing the flow, rather than just let it all go. I notice now how I’m more prone to use first person language here, not just to simplify communication, but because I identify with that subtle urge.
These practices aren't done with a lot of effort, but rather through many "glimpses" over time. Don't push hard, don't try too long, just slowly get used to noticing how attention moves itself.
I’m on it.
This is good. This is where the practice is already heading. Experience is pointing the same way as a number of teacher gestalts that I trust. I like the way you are framing this, Shargrol. Thanks!
Shargrol
Since you are able to notice the silence in the midst of sounds, it means that you are able to go to the hearing sense and understand it as a bandwidth of experience. It also means that your ability let experience simply be without manipulation, clinging, etc. is pretty good.
Since you are able to notice the silence in the midst of sounds, it means that you are able to go to the hearing sense and understand it as a bandwidth of experience. It also means that your ability let experience simply be without manipulation, clinging, etc. is pretty good.
Interesting. That makes sense. Thanks for putting it into words!
So now here is another idea for you: can you treat attention itself as another bandwidth of experience? So, in other words, in most experiences there will be part of reality which will be the center of attention and there will be the rest of reality which seems less important and is "around" the center of attention.
Yes, but not as well as I hope, because I don’t always notice when I get caught up in being narrow, especially in daily life. I suppose my ADHD plays in here too. But I practice it a lot, and it gradually gets better.
This is true for vision obviously, but it is also true of thought, for example. The mind is exuding thoughts and embryo-thoughts all the time, that's just what it does. It's like the skin which is always giving off moisture, it's just what skin does but it's not obvious until you put your hand in a plastic bag, for example
Yes, I have noticed that, but it’s often something that I realize only after it has been going on for a while. I tried to describe the subjective experience of that above. It’s interesting! I’ll certainly explore it more.
During a sitting practice, see if you can notice how the mind --- on it's own --- puts attention on a series of mind objects. Notice how no effort is needed as the mind switches from one object to another. The goal here is to hold the mind and attention loosesly enough that you allow it to do what it wants.
This is one of my absolute favorite practices.
(Yes, this will feel "wrong" for a while because of a series of unconscious beliefs like "a meditator needs to control their attention" or "to be a smart person I need to direct my attention" or "if I'm not in control, I'll go insane" or "this isn't mediation, I'm not going to learn anything from this". Those are all thoughts and beliefs with an emotional reaction... no big deal. Don't try to ignore or fix it, just allow those experiences to happen and notice how attention is drawn to those thoughts. But again, hold the mind loosely enought that rather than being sucked into discursive thinking, you are mostly paying attention to how the attention moves. Yes, that previous sentence is paradoxical, but it is sort of like learning to balance: you learn to balance by paying attention to what it feels like to balance. At first it's short little moments, but over time it becomes more frequently and possible to do more easily...)
It doesn’t feel wrong at all. I love it. Depending on what people mean by sanity, I find that it’s often overrated anyway. For me, meditation started out as the haven where I wouldn’t need to be in control, so I have done much more of this loose kind of practice than controlled ones. The dog training approach always seemed to me like a recipe for developing shadow sides.
What this practice does is ultimately show you that attention isn't exactly the same as "you" but it is something that appears within experience and has always been assumed to be "me". "I'm aware" "I'm distracted" "I'm paying attention" "I'm noticing" We say those things all the time, but it begs the question: what knows awareness, distraction, attention, and noticing? All of those things are distinquishable as experiences _within_ the mind, so they cannot be what mind _is_.
Yeah. It’s all just aware. It’s aware before the echo of making it ”mine”, when that mode is on.
As you notice how attention moves itself from mind object to mind object, you'll also pick up on the very subtle but hugely significant "urges" that seem to _cause_ attention to move. These urges are a subtle holding of something, a subtle avoiding of something, a subtle interest/emphasizing of something, a subtle distraction by a busy switching between objects, and a blanking out by holding but unfocusing from an object. Many times we _identify_ with these urges as self, but actually all of those things are distinquishable as experiences _within_ the mind, so they cannot be what mind _is_.
Yes. This is where my edge is. Michael calls this ”dropping the ball”. I still have subtle clinging to movement, to embracing the flow, rather than just let it all go. I notice now how I’m more prone to use first person language here, not just to simplify communication, but because I identify with that subtle urge.
These practices aren't done with a lot of effort, but rather through many "glimpses" over time. Don't push hard, don't try too long, just slowly get used to noticing how attention moves itself.
I’m on it.
This is good. This is where the practice is already heading. Experience is pointing the same way as a number of teacher gestalts that I trust. I like the way you are framing this, Shargrol. Thanks!
Im not sure if what Im about to say could help but in case you have some physical activity where you need really to be very still and very concentarted , like threding the needle hole, you could have that relaxed intent to do so and in that there can be collapsing of that duality. Maybe or not
or not
This might be the least cryptical pointer you have ever given me. Thankyou! It opens up to a lightness that I tend to neglect more often when it comes to emotions.
Thankyou! It opens up to a lightness that I tend to neglect more often when it comes to emotions.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
This might be the least cryptical pointer you have ever given me. Thankyou! It opens up to a lightness that I tend to neglect more often when it comes to emotions.
This might be the least cryptical pointer you have ever given me.
Thankyou! It opens up to a lightness that I tend to neglect more often when it comes to emotions. 
Or a thicket of abstractions?
To be fair, I think Linda is on the right path, but we all benefit from a certain Chris-ian devotion to uncovering subtle clinging in the higher levels of the dharma.
<Waiting for a bite ... >
To be fair, I think Linda is on the right path, but we all benefit from a certain Chris-ian devotion to uncovering subtle clinging in the higher levels of the dharma.
<Waiting for a bite ... >
"higher levels of the dharma."
Hm ... ? So there is a higher and a lower level of dharma? Hm ... ?
Or is it "deeper" and "shallower" level of the dharma?
Hm ... ? So there is a higher and a lower level of dharma? Hm ... ?
Or is it "deeper" and "shallower" level of the dharma?
Well, your response has nothing to do with how I use the words. I'm not going to defend a position that was never mine to begin with. That would just be silly.
My brain is certainly prone to thickets of abstraction. This isn't one, though, unless I try to verbalize it. It is a very simple experience. Much simpler than communication.
Yes, it's always good to watch out for subtle clinging. I intend to do that for the rest of my life.
Bites are only okay on a strictly consensual basis.
I know that I'm on the right path (for me). I also know that I have plenty of stuff to work on, and for now I know how to.
No Papa Che, I'm really not saying anything about higher and lower levels of dharma, and not about shallow and deep levels either. I was merely talking about how theoretical framings are organized in relation to each other, for those who slice and dice their thinking similarly to how I tend to do it. All such organizations are constructions anyway, so debating them would be pointless.
I really just prefer to continue with the practice. All the best wishes to you all.
Yes, it's always good to watch out for subtle clinging. I intend to do that for the rest of my life.
Bites are only okay on a strictly consensual basis.
I know that I'm on the right path (for me). I also know that I have plenty of stuff to work on, and for now I know how to.
No Papa Che, I'm really not saying anything about higher and lower levels of dharma, and not about shallow and deep levels either. I was merely talking about how theoretical framings are organized in relation to each other, for those who slice and dice their thinking similarly to how I tend to do it. All such organizations are constructions anyway, so debating them would be pointless.
I really just prefer to continue with the practice. All the best wishes to you all.
Something that I appreciate is that the rabbitholing is consistent. Jim doesn't go around telling people to quit the search, because of course there was never anyone searching in the first place. It's just nothing (or the aliveness) appearing as searching, and that's just what is, which is liberation too. If you go down the rabbithole, you better go all the way instead of chasing your own tail. That resonates.
Ok Linda I guess the hormon and medicine related stuff needs a different approach, cant help you with that. You can check out if this resonates with you for the other things
Just talked to a friend btw, I told him that morning are good for working on your substrate "fog", he said Gampopa said you should recognize rigpa at the moment you wake up for this very reason. So thats one thing, in the morning this foggyness is very there in your face since you are immersed in it during sleep (at least most of us are), and its a very good time to investigate it right in the morning.
Then, my teachers favourite practice is dynamic consentration. If you shout hung phet say half a mala or full mala, then relax effortlessly for some minuts. And repeat this a couple of times, the shouts will pierce through the substrate quite quckly. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-B0JMYOgvM
What I like to do is this: I see that my fog is very related to sleepiness and also this hungry ghost-like slow, self-indulging mindstate. What I do is see myself in the realm of hungry ghosts, filled with addicts, cravers, slowpaste sleepwalkers. Have them all around me and then think they are all my parents, my own mother and fathers, that they love their lives and deeply want to be happy but experience immense suffering and pain. Fell compassion for them, and then do tonglen, taking in all their suffering and showering them with all that is good, healing and liberating, however you have learned tonglen practice. This will make the radiance of awarness appear as the nature of compassion in the mids of this sleep state, and the clear knowing quality of rigpa. Also antidote for self-immersion which is very typical for this thing, opening up. In this way you can easier investigate. Recognize rigpa, and then let whatever happen happen.
There are other ways to to go at this substrate, but I cant share the teachings I have recieved on this I am afraid, but these other things works as a sharm as well. Might ask some teacher about this, there should be teachings on how to work with substrate mind, often mentioned in dzogchen.
More about substrate, in my experience it happens due to the blockages in the small nadis outside the body, usually gives rise to some kind of apathy, dullness, depression etc.. Essentially though it appears due to ignorance (se quote bellow). So you can investigate this if you like, then aim your practice at these places. I think its really good that you have these categories. The "healing" type is currious, you think its some absorbtion maybe, or different thing? Anyway, when you "see" it, it becomes easier to work with it
Best of luck!
Oskar
From Dudjom Lingpas Buddhahood without meditation::
""Due to the obscuration of the ground by ignorance, the actual substrate, which is space-like and immaterial, devoid of thoughts and appearances, is like deep sleep and fainting. Immersion in this state is of the essential nature of delusion, a vast field of ignorance"
I guess the hormon and medicine related stuff needs a different approach, cant help you with that. You can check out if this resonates with you for the other things Just talked to a friend btw, I told him that morning are good for working on your substrate "fog", he said Gampopa said you should recognize rigpa at the moment you wake up for this very reason. So thats one thing, in the morning this foggyness is very there in your face since you are immersed in it during sleep (at least most of us are), and its a very good time to investigate it right in the morning.
Then, my teachers favourite practice is dynamic consentration. If you shout hung phet say half a mala or full mala, then relax effortlessly for some minuts. And repeat this a couple of times, the shouts will pierce through the substrate quite quckly. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-B0JMYOgvM
What I like to do is this: I see that my fog is very related to sleepiness and also this hungry ghost-like slow, self-indulging mindstate. What I do is see myself in the realm of hungry ghosts, filled with addicts, cravers, slowpaste sleepwalkers. Have them all around me and then think they are all my parents, my own mother and fathers, that they love their lives and deeply want to be happy but experience immense suffering and pain. Fell compassion for them, and then do tonglen, taking in all their suffering and showering them with all that is good, healing and liberating, however you have learned tonglen practice. This will make the radiance of awarness appear as the nature of compassion in the mids of this sleep state, and the clear knowing quality of rigpa. Also antidote for self-immersion which is very typical for this thing, opening up. In this way you can easier investigate. Recognize rigpa, and then let whatever happen happen.
There are other ways to to go at this substrate, but I cant share the teachings I have recieved on this I am afraid, but these other things works as a sharm as well. Might ask some teacher about this, there should be teachings on how to work with substrate mind, often mentioned in dzogchen.
More about substrate, in my experience it happens due to the blockages in the small nadis outside the body, usually gives rise to some kind of apathy, dullness, depression etc.. Essentially though it appears due to ignorance (se quote bellow). So you can investigate this if you like, then aim your practice at these places. I think its really good that you have these categories. The "healing" type is currious, you think its some absorbtion maybe, or different thing? Anyway, when you "see" it, it becomes easier to work with it
Best of luck!
Oskar
From Dudjom Lingpas Buddhahood without meditation::
""Due to the obscuration of the ground by ignorance, the actual substrate, which is space-like and immaterial, devoid of thoughts and appearances, is like deep sleep and fainting. Immersion in this state is of the essential nature of delusion, a vast field of ignorance"
Cool Linda, will answer you tomorrow need to go to bed now. Also need to read more of your log, just seen some point here and there. Sleep tight
Sleep well!
When you answer, if you can I would be very interested in hearing more about how you experience the blockages of the nadis outside the body and how you go about working with them.
I need to read more of your log as well!
When you answer, if you can I would be very interested in hearing more about how you experience the blockages of the nadis outside the body and how you go about working with them.
I need to read more of your log as well!
I guess that if I do a full mala, it might increase the chanses of right focus for at least one of the shouts.
- yeah, just relax and do some shouting, with a guided video might be helpful. Easy and relaxed, but sharp and just see what happens after a mala or three (remember some breaks inbetween each set).
I think I'll try your personal practice first.
- Go for it never met anyone trying it, but I do it alot myself actually everyday the last days. One point in my experience when practicing with substrate, is that compassion gets hard, like this fog is so flat and neutral, and sometimes you almost wont notice its there (while obvisouly other times you do notice when its more gross). But this fog in my experience is the very thing that makes compassion stagnate, not recognizing awarness is to not recognize love and compassion for others that are equal to you, so you might notice some challenge there. I have written alot about my struggle with substrate in my log, as it seems to be the main obsticle at where I am now in my practice and less of other things.
Wait a minute, I think that's what I'm doing when immersed in the healing version, which I don't personally regard as brain fog because it doesn't feel foggy when that occurs. In that state, it's like there are energy threads all around me and they are disentangling.
- Yes, I have this too sometimes. It can be channels outside the body that loosens up and purify, this will give this foggy blizz for a while followed by freshness. Another thing that has happen to me a few times, is that the blessings of one guru comes spontaneously which can give similar experience, f.ex from reading a text, pretty similar if you have recieved empowerments and felt the blessings, it hits the karmic body and can give this intoxication for a while since its so strong. So if you do prayers or mantras, or have some deitie practice that might be related.
How I work with outside the body?
You know that I am a student of Kim Katami right?(actually I prefer calling him Rinpoche), so we use the bhumi model as the ground for all other practice. I think since last spring I have spent alot of time investigating it, looking into each bhumi center, channels related to it, and energybody in general before and after purification of channels happens the energybody looks veeeery different, there is a reason in thangkas there is a aura with straight or wavy lines, that is not how a normal persons aura look like, due to ignorance its all fucked up and wierd. So when working with stuff outside the body three things comes to mind: first is that there is parrallell happenings in the mind, meaning clinging to the notion of time is a conceptual thing, but its energetical counterpart can be found mostly outside the body. This is always the case, which is why guys like Tsognkhapa or nagarjuna can reach enlightenment just by "thinking". Also when in my practice has fully purified one of these outer layers, there is a corresponding event happening in the mind, so not two seperate things is what I am trying to say, though practice differs externally they yeild same result. Just a heads up that this link is there. The second point, from mahayana point of view you should generate compassion as much as possible, at later stage from the point of the bhumis, there is simply no way you will reach the stuff far far into the "aura" without generating compassion, no way, meaning you cannot progress on mahayana path without compassion. I know this sounds a bit orthodox and rigid but its my experience, and I dont think you will find a single mahayana teacher saying otherwise. The "view, at this point, will at times include love and compassion to a completely different degree (I say at times because its by no means that way all the time, at least not in my case, but you start glimpsing that awarness is full of love and care). So compassion practice, caring for everyone everywhere is the main thing for your mind to cover all the entanglements in the outer energy system and nadis. I could and should write more about this point, its really interesting, but maybe another time. Third is you can use mantras, vizualisations, when you get a sense of the aura and the bhumis this just makes way more sense. Also Rinpoche use coming, which as with shouting, I have been very sceptinc about but it just works like a charm when you start percieving what your outer energy layers look like, I do it every day You can find videos about it on youtube, both coaming, and boddhicitta in reference to energy body. But investigating is really important, I could not tell you these things if I had not spent alot of time investigating and it can take some time. Profit is you get a kind of confidence when its not from books you know these things, but own experience.
Hope this is helpfull
Oskar
- yeah, just relax and do some shouting, with a guided video might be helpful. Easy and relaxed, but sharp and just see what happens after a mala or three (remember some breaks inbetween each set).
I think I'll try your personal practice first.
- Go for it
never met anyone trying it, but I do it alot myself actually everyday the last days. One point in my experience when practicing with substrate, is that compassion gets hard, like this fog is so flat and neutral, and sometimes you almost wont notice its there (while obvisouly other times you do notice when its more gross). But this fog in my experience is the very thing that makes compassion stagnate, not recognizing awarness is to not recognize love and compassion for others that are equal to you, so you might notice some challenge there. I have written alot about my struggle with substrate in my log, as it seems to be the main obsticle at where I am now in my practice and less of other things. Wait a minute, I think that's what I'm doing when immersed in the healing version, which I don't personally regard as brain fog because it doesn't feel foggy when that occurs. In that state, it's like there are energy threads all around me and they are disentangling.
- Yes, I have this too sometimes. It can be channels outside the body that loosens up and purify, this will give this foggy blizz for a while followed by freshness. Another thing that has happen to me a few times, is that the blessings of one guru comes spontaneously which can give similar experience, f.ex from reading a text, pretty similar if you have recieved empowerments and felt the blessings, it hits the karmic body and can give this intoxication for a while since its so strong. So if you do prayers or mantras, or have some deitie practice that might be related.
How I work with outside the body?
You know that I am a student of Kim Katami right?(actually I prefer calling him Rinpoche), so we use the bhumi model as the ground for all other practice. I think since last spring I have spent alot of time investigating it, looking into each bhumi center, channels related to it, and energybody in general before and after purification of channels happens the energybody looks veeeery different, there is a reason in thangkas there is a aura with straight or wavy lines, that is not how a normal persons aura look like, due to ignorance its all fucked up and wierd. So when working with stuff outside the body three things comes to mind: first is that there is parrallell happenings in the mind, meaning clinging to the notion of time is a conceptual thing, but its energetical counterpart can be found mostly outside the body. This is always the case, which is why guys like Tsognkhapa or nagarjuna can reach enlightenment just by "thinking". Also when in my practice has fully purified one of these outer layers, there is a corresponding event happening in the mind, so not two seperate things is what I am trying to say, though practice differs externally they yeild same result. Just a heads up that this link is there
. The second point, from mahayana point of view you should generate compassion as much as possible, at later stage from the point of the bhumis, there is simply no way you will reach the stuff far far into the "aura" without generating compassion, no way, meaning you cannot progress on mahayana path without compassion. I know this sounds a bit orthodox and rigid but its my experience, and I dont think you will find a single mahayana teacher saying otherwise. The "view, at this point, will at times include love and compassion to a completely different degree (I say at times because its by no means that way all the time, at least not in my case, but you start glimpsing that awarness is full of love and care). So compassion practice, caring for everyone everywhere is the main thing for your mind to cover all the entanglements in the outer energy system and nadis. I could and should write more about this point, its really interesting, but maybe another time. Third is you can use mantras, vizualisations, when you get a sense of the aura and the bhumis this just makes way more sense. Also Rinpoche use coming, which as with shouting, I have been very sceptinc about but it just works like a charm when you start percieving what your outer energy layers look like, I do it every day You can find videos about it on youtube, both coaming, and boddhicitta in reference to energy body. But investigating is really important, I could not tell you these things if I had not spent alot of time investigating and it can take some time. Profit is you get a kind of confidence when its not from books you know these things, but own experience.Hope this is helpfull
Oskar
Ok. About hell realms, I asked what my friend did. And she told me to ask the gurus Honestly, if you have trust in you recognition and gurus, you can ask you gurus to take you there, and I guess most other things as well, its only a matter of being willing and sincere. So I meditated, and asked guru rinpoche and yeshe tsogyal to take me there. My body didnt move or anything, it was like a vision but very real, like more real than a dream. So in a sense I cant say if it was an actually hell being I saw, but it didnt feel different from seeing any other person really, though obviously it could be my own imagination, I dont think so. And even if it was theres no doubt anymore for me that this sort of pain happens 
I have dared to do it again, the pain is unimaginable. Though you could just go to a hospital or old peoples home, alot of hells on this planet among any person or animal.
Slightly related to this is that you come to see at one point that your own rigpa doesnt discriminate between realms, like its not this realm here, and then one eaon away there is this one, and some more eons there is another one, this is dualistic mind dividing things. I think Yuthok Yonten Gonpo the younger write somewhere that "in an instant I visit hundreds of buddhafields", and thats exactly it, same with Longchenpa writing something similar, that all buddhafield arise from the same magical display or something. To make an oppose statement, I think to remember that an "arhat" called Frank Yang from youtube, said he would see all realms or something in meditation, like if he actually saw loads at the same time, like this is either very shallow recognition/or samadhi state of some kind, and not the same as what Yuthok from my perspective and if I remember correctly. Hard to explain really, but its a matter of maturing in recognition that gives confidence to this.
Hehe, yeah maps get you into trouble, but you saw the last post we had about pragmativ varjayana. I opened my computer and had 16 messages from one guy, spraying things all over the place. Alot of good discussiont too, and very greatful to you and malcolm, but beings somewhat new to internett dharma, it felt like sharks are waiting for you when you talk about Pemako and bhumis thats why I said that But yes no maps are perfect, I have recently looked more into dependent originaiton, as I like to compare things and felt grounding with perspective. Though in general I am a huge fan of maps, like Ingram or Daniel Brown are crystal clear on how-to and what should happen, and that makes really big difference for people performing those practices.
No need to vizualise the nadis, they are already there so persieve with consetration or feeling.
Yeah, some things are best to let be, i dont know Happy to share about it, and happy you ask, its interesting stuff and I have had the oppurtunity to look into it alot with other tools than most people.
Honestly, if you have trust in you recognition and gurus, you can ask you gurus to take you there, and I guess most other things as well, its only a matter of being willing and sincere. So I meditated, and asked guru rinpoche and yeshe tsogyal to take me there. My body didnt move or anything, it was like a vision but very real, like more real than a dream. So in a sense I cant say if it was an actually hell being I saw, but it didnt feel different from seeing any other person really, though obviously it could be my own imagination, I dont think so. And even if it was theres no doubt anymore for me that this sort of pain happens I have dared to do it again, the pain is unimaginable. Though you could just go to a hospital or old peoples home, alot of hells on this planet among any person or animal. Slightly related to this is that you come to see at one point that your own rigpa doesnt discriminate between realms, like its not this realm here, and then one eaon away there is this one, and some more eons there is another one, this is dualistic mind dividing things. I think Yuthok Yonten Gonpo the younger write somewhere that "in an instant I visit hundreds of buddhafields", and thats exactly it, same with Longchenpa writing something similar, that all buddhafield arise from the same magical display or something. To make an oppose statement, I think to remember that an "arhat" called Frank Yang from youtube, said he would see all realms or something in meditation, like if he actually saw loads at the same time, like this is either very shallow recognition/or samadhi state of some kind, and not the same as what Yuthok from my perspective and if I remember correctly. Hard to explain really, but its a matter of maturing in recognition that gives confidence to this.
Hehe, yeah maps get you into trouble, but you saw the last post we had about pragmativ varjayana. I opened my computer and had 16 messages from one guy, spraying things all over the place. Alot of good discussiont too, and very greatful to you and malcolm, but beings somewhat new to internett dharma, it felt like sharks are waiting for you when you talk about Pemako and bhumis thats why I said that
But yes no maps are perfect, I have recently looked more into dependent originaiton, as I like to compare things and felt grounding with perspective. Though in general I am a huge fan of maps, like Ingram or Daniel Brown are crystal clear on how-to and what should happen, and that makes really big difference for people performing those practices. No need to vizualise the nadis, they are already there so persieve with consetration or feeling.
Yeah, some things are best to let be, i dont know
Happy to share about it, and happy you ask, its interesting stuff and I have had the oppurtunity to look into it alot with other tools than most people.
And just to comfort the self-absorbed patterns some other time, if I read this: the force is still with me.
I woke up this morning (uhm, noon to be honest, as my circadian rhythm is messed up) in mild absorption. There were images reminding of sacred geometry, not the chrystal clear visions but the grainy ones. The energetics varied between vibrating, bubbling, bright light, roaring nada sound, roaring absolute silence bursting out from the nada sound like from a popped bubble, and the sense of immediate presence.
I woke up this morning (uhm, noon to be honest, as my circadian rhythm is messed up) in mild absorption. There were images reminding of sacred geometry, not the chrystal clear visions but the grainy ones. The energetics varied between vibrating, bubbling, bright light, roaring nada sound, roaring absolute silence bursting out from the nada sound like from a popped bubble, and the sense of immediate presence.
Im recognizing this in my patterns, so easy to fall into my little self world. I do it all the time with my partner, at work, in traffic ... However, remembering that what we already "know" is really vast in comparison to most beings stumbling around.
I find Tonglen to remedy this in my case and be open to give it away and taking on all the negative to myself. Give all my gain to others and take all the loss to myself. It hurts to do so but that is exactly we are trying to see.
I know you know all this but felt like sharing. I felt there was not enough ones and zeros on the www today 110001001111000101110001
I find Tonglen to remedy this in my case and be open to give it away and taking on all the negative to myself. Give all my gain to others and take all the loss to myself. It hurts to do so but that is exactly we are trying to see.
I know you know all this but felt like sharing. I felt there was not enough ones and zeros on the www today
110001001111000101110001
There is also this recent thread about Leigh Brasington's take on DO, including a link to his free book on the subject, and some additional discussion and ressources.
Ha! I'm in the same boat for a while now, as in not missing good offers and buying stuff guitar related!!! I was skypeing with Shargrol the other day and he suggested I use that part for Hungry Ghost Realm meditation, to induce the feelings and all, by really visualizing all that's happening while Im browsing the gear I so hunger for, etc ... (there are detailed ways to get into this practice)
The truth is I don't really need all that stuff! I have enough gear! However, this reactive pattern does get triggered daily and I end up browsing the net for guitar effects and amps etc ... I do sell stuff first and then maybe add a bit more and buy new stuff so I never hoard things.
As Trungpa say "Transcending Madness" indeed! So many reactive patterns, not a moment of peace!
Cleansing the Karma is the one job that will never get old I feel! Until my last breath
May we all ... dandy, happy and all!
I'm in the same boat for a while now, as in not missing good offers and buying stuff guitar related!!! I was skypeing with Shargrol the other day and he suggested I use that part for Hungry Ghost Realm meditation, to induce the feelings and all, by really visualizing all that's happening while Im browsing the gear I so hunger for, etc ... (there are detailed ways to get into this practice)The truth is I don't really need all that stuff! I have enough gear! However, this reactive pattern does get triggered daily and I end up browsing the net for guitar effects and amps etc ... I do sell stuff first and then maybe add a bit more and buy new stuff so I never hoard things.
As Trungpa say "Transcending Madness"
indeed! So many reactive patterns, not a moment of peace!Cleansing the Karma is the one job that will never get old I feel! Until my last breath
May we all ... dandy, happy and all!
Hi Linda hope you are well!
Here is one bullet proof method! Give it a try or just have a good laugh!
https://youtu.be/92i5m3tV5XY
hope you are well! Here is one bullet proof method! Give it a try or just have a good laugh!
https://youtu.be/92i5m3tV5XY
Inducing pain, experiencing relief... same old same old I see ^_^
Methods I use are not compatible with relief. Can easily do all jhanas with them because any hindrance of any kind can be simply shut down, be it pesky neurons who behaves like brain was their oyster, tired neurons or pretty much whatever thing you can imagine and this is because if I tried to experience relief it would cause the effect of method to be broken by retriggering disabled parts of brain and this breaks the effect of the method.
That said I wish I was myself so completely skillful as to not indulge in some forms of relief. The point I try to make is that when recognized it is never worth pursuing. There are better experiences which can be had and experience of relief is a hindrance in developing these experiences and developing methods to skillfully help mind remain in good shape. Whether any kind of maintenance has to be done on any part of the mind it is the what type of maintenance and where which need to be there, not experience of improvement. Once part of brain is sealed for maintenance new parts of brain take its place (or not if really whatever was sealed was not really needed functionally speaking) and no matter how I look at it neither triggering sealed parts of brain is needed to check if they feel better nor doing anything to make old and new parts of brain to arise together. Should information transfer be needed it would be best to do it before any sealing, not after. These parts of mind which were sealed are off limits and part of the sealing operation should be removal of all pointers to them. Cannot remove pointers if you intend to experience relief now can you
Anyways, regarding second paragraph of your post: Relation of body and neurotransmitters with energies is definitely there. It is because body drives energy, literally body makes it to arise and it collects it. Movement of pure energy can cause movement in physical mind, of course meditated by neurotransmitters. Because of that to have meaningful movement of energy, the one experienced in physical mind, we need to have neurotransmitters. Also to tune neurons to the energy itself to be sensitive to it (which is another matter entirely). Them (neurotransmitters) are available locally so one way except adding more neurotransmitters is to lock out any parts of brain which do not have them. Still with lots of usage it might happen neurotransmitters are used up and there is not much which can be used anymore for given experience. It is less of an issue if experience just needs to be pleasant and becomes more of an issue if we want specific experience which is taxing on neurotransmitters. In the first case if it is this or that experience doesn't matter. If eg. serotonin starts running low one could always have dopamine based experiences and if most stuff seems to be running out then go for almost complete cessation of mind and experience pleasure of rest. Experience whatever seems available and while at it try to be aware what it is, how it works, what is involved, how to recognize approaching limits of experience, etc. Some times it is useful to even overindulge to force oneself to not be able to physically experience something as this leads to need to develop something else. Though that said it is always more skillful to not overindulge and be able to easily able to experience everything without such practice methods... but sheet as they say happens and when it does it is best to make good use of the situation and maybe learn something new.
Also pure energy itself is something else. With methods to move it around it is possible to cause experience of wind inside body. Also energy itself is independent on expression in physical mind and other than strong experiences that happen when neurons are tuned strongly to these energies and can be triggered that energy can be experienced in the mind which is kinda outside physical mind, though in this case it can be very subtle. In fact whole subtle mind is subtle so that is to be expected. Moving energies within subtle mind does not require any input from or output to physical mind, hence it doesn't require feedback from it in form of actual physical/mental experiences. It is something to keep in mind when practicing because at times due to physical body's limitation it might seem something with energy cannot be done but actually it is just a limit of experience of physical body and it might be worth working with subtle energy itself despite lack of proper feedback from physical mind.
Also if one believes in subtle mind or not doesn't even matter. The same advice is valid for various sub-systems within physical body. So eg. if the kind of activity which can be described as moving energies is experienced strongly in one part of the body but there are barriers it might be beneficial to try to see if moving that energy using different kind of experience of energy can be done instead. If it can be then it should be done. Moving something that feels subtler a lot can cause nervous system to unblock its pathways that when operating feels less subtle. Nervous system will recognize activity and will make sure connections are made and proper amount of neuro-transmitters is available so it might as well be that after some time has passed from moving subtler energies it will be possible to move those which movement generate more meaningful experiences. In some kind of blockades it is even not advised to try to force things and rather work with subtler energies and when they can be moved through move them and wait until less subtle experiences feel ready to moved through.
I am sure a lot if not most of this stuff about energy you already know but since I practice with this stuff for almost two decades and put a lot of thought in to it why prevent myself from writing nice wall of text about it
Methods I use are not compatible with relief. Can easily do all jhanas with them because any hindrance of any kind can be simply shut down, be it pesky neurons who behaves like brain was their oyster, tired neurons or pretty much whatever thing you can imagine and this is because if I tried to experience relief it would cause the effect of method to be broken by retriggering disabled parts of brain and this breaks the effect of the method.
That said I wish I was myself so completely skillful as to not indulge in some forms of relief. The point I try to make is that when recognized it is never worth pursuing. There are better experiences which can be had and experience of relief is a hindrance in developing these experiences and developing methods to skillfully help mind remain in good shape. Whether any kind of maintenance has to be done on any part of the mind it is the what type of maintenance and where which need to be there, not experience of improvement. Once part of brain is sealed for maintenance new parts of brain take its place (or not if really whatever was sealed was not really needed functionally speaking) and no matter how I look at it neither triggering sealed parts of brain is needed to check if they feel better nor doing anything to make old and new parts of brain to arise together. Should information transfer be needed it would be best to do it before any sealing, not after. These parts of mind which were sealed are off limits and part of the sealing operation should be removal of all pointers to them. Cannot remove pointers if you intend to experience relief now can you
Anyways, regarding second paragraph of your post: Relation of body and neurotransmitters with energies is definitely there. It is because body drives energy, literally body makes it to arise and it collects it. Movement of pure energy can cause movement in physical mind, of course meditated by neurotransmitters. Because of that to have meaningful movement of energy, the one experienced in physical mind, we need to have neurotransmitters. Also to tune neurons to the energy itself to be sensitive to it (which is another matter entirely). Them (neurotransmitters) are available locally so one way except adding more neurotransmitters is to lock out any parts of brain which do not have them. Still with lots of usage it might happen neurotransmitters are used up and there is not much which can be used anymore for given experience. It is less of an issue if experience just needs to be pleasant and becomes more of an issue if we want specific experience which is taxing on neurotransmitters. In the first case if it is this or that experience doesn't matter. If eg. serotonin starts running low one could always have dopamine based experiences and if most stuff seems to be running out then go for almost complete cessation of mind and experience pleasure of rest. Experience whatever seems available and while at it try to be aware what it is, how it works, what is involved, how to recognize approaching limits of experience, etc. Some times it is useful to even overindulge to force oneself to not be able to physically experience something as this leads to need to develop something else. Though that said it is always more skillful to not overindulge and be able to easily able to experience everything without such practice methods... but sheet as they say happens and when it does it is best to make good use of the situation and maybe learn something new.
Also pure energy itself is something else. With methods to move it around it is possible to cause experience of wind inside body. Also energy itself is independent on expression in physical mind and other than strong experiences that happen when neurons are tuned strongly to these energies and can be triggered that energy can be experienced in the mind which is kinda outside physical mind, though in this case it can be very subtle. In fact whole subtle mind is subtle so that is to be expected. Moving energies within subtle mind does not require any input from or output to physical mind, hence it doesn't require feedback from it in form of actual physical/mental experiences. It is something to keep in mind when practicing because at times due to physical body's limitation it might seem something with energy cannot be done but actually it is just a limit of experience of physical body and it might be worth working with subtle energy itself despite lack of proper feedback from physical mind.
Also if one believes in subtle mind or not doesn't even matter. The same advice is valid for various sub-systems within physical body. So eg. if the kind of activity which can be described as moving energies is experienced strongly in one part of the body but there are barriers it might be beneficial to try to see if moving that energy using different kind of experience of energy can be done instead. If it can be then it should be done. Moving something that feels subtler a lot can cause nervous system to unblock its pathways that when operating feels less subtle. Nervous system will recognize activity and will make sure connections are made and proper amount of neuro-transmitters is available so it might as well be that after some time has passed from moving subtler energies it will be possible to move those which movement generate more meaningful experiences. In some kind of blockades it is even not advised to try to force things and rather work with subtler energies and when they can be moved through move them and wait until less subtle experiences feel ready to moved through.
I am sure a lot if not most of this stuff about energy you already know but since I practice with this stuff for almost two decades and put a lot of thought in to it why prevent myself from writing nice wall of text about it
Ni Nurta
Inducing pain, experiencing relief... same old same old I see ^_^
Methods I use are not compatible with relief. Can easily do all jhanas with them because any hindrance of any kind can be simply shut down, be it pesky neurons who behaves like brain was their oyster, tired neurons or pretty much whatever thing you can imagine and this is because if I tried to experience relief it would cause the effect of method to be broken by retriggering disabled parts of brain and this breaks the effect of the method.
That said I wish I was myself so completely skillful as to not indulge in some forms of relief. The point I try to make is that when recognized it is never worth pursuing. There are better experiences which can be had and experience of relief is a hindrance in developing these experiences and developing methods to skillfully help mind remain in good shape. Whether any kind of maintenance has to be done on any part of the mind it is the what type of maintenance and where which need to be there, not experience of improvement. Once part of brain is sealed for maintenance new parts of brain take its place (or not if really whatever was sealed was not really needed functionally speaking) and no matter how I look at it neither triggering sealed parts of brain is needed to check if they feel better nor doing anything to make old and new parts of brain to arise together. Should information transfer be needed it would be best to do it before any sealing, not after. These parts of mind which were sealed are off limits and part of the sealing operation should be removal of all pointers to them. Cannot remove pointers if you intend to experience relief now can you
Anyways, regarding second paragraph of your post: Relation of body and neurotransmitters with energies is definitely there. It is because body drives energy, literally body makes it to arise and it collects it. Movement of pure energy can cause movement in physical mind, of course meditated by neurotransmitters. Because of that to have meaningful movement of energy, the one experienced in physical mind, we need to have neurotransmitters. Also to tune neurons to the energy itself to be sensitive to it (which is another matter entirely). Them (neurotransmitters) are available locally so one way except adding more neurotransmitters is to lock out any parts of brain which do not have them. Still with lots of usage it might happen neurotransmitters are used up and there is not much which can be used anymore for given experience. It is less of an issue if experience just needs to be pleasant and becomes more of an issue if we want specific experience which is taxing on neurotransmitters. In the first case if it is this or that experience doesn't matter. If eg. serotonin starts running low one could always have dopamine based experiences and if most stuff seems to be running out then go for almost complete cessation of mind and experience pleasure of rest. Experience whatever seems available and while at it try to be aware what it is, how it works, what is involved, how to recognize approaching limits of experience, etc. Some times it is useful to even overindulge to force oneself to not be able to physically experience something as this leads to need to develop something else. Though that said it is always more skillful to not overindulge and be able to easily able to experience everything without such practice methods... but sheet as they say happens and when it does it is best to make good use of the situation and maybe learn something new.
Also pure energy itself is something else. With methods to move it around it is possible to cause experience of wind inside body. Also energy itself is independent on expression in physical mind and other than strong experiences that happen when neurons are tuned strongly to these energies and can be triggered that energy can be experienced in the mind which is kinda outside physical mind, though in this case it can be very subtle. In fact whole subtle mind is subtle so that is to be expected. Moving energies within subtle mind does not require any input from or output to physical mind, hence it doesn't require feedback from it in form of actual physical/mental experiences. It is something to keep in mind when practicing because at times due to physical body's limitation it might seem something with energy cannot be done but actually it is just a limit of experience of physical body and it might be worth working with subtle energy itself despite lack of proper feedback from physical mind.
Also if one believes in subtle mind or not doesn't even matter. The same advice is valid for various sub-systems within physical body. So eg. if the kind of activity which can be described as moving energies is experienced strongly in one part of the body but there are barriers it might be beneficial to try to see if moving that energy using different kind of experience of energy can be done instead. If it can be then it should be done. Moving something that feels subtler a lot can cause nervous system to unblock its pathways that when operating feels less subtle. Nervous system will recognize activity and will make sure connections are made and proper amount of neuro-transmitters is available so it might as well be that after some time has passed from moving subtler energies it will be possible to move those which movement generate more meaningful experiences. In some kind of blockades it is even not advised to try to force things and rather work with subtler energies and when they can be moved through move them and wait until less subtle experiences feel ready to moved through.
I am sure a lot if not most of this stuff about energy you already know but since I practice with this stuff for almost two decades and put a lot of thought in to it why prevent myself from writing nice wall of text about it
Inducing pain, experiencing relief... same old same old I see ^_^
Methods I use are not compatible with relief. Can easily do all jhanas with them because any hindrance of any kind can be simply shut down, be it pesky neurons who behaves like brain was their oyster, tired neurons or pretty much whatever thing you can imagine and this is because if I tried to experience relief it would cause the effect of method to be broken by retriggering disabled parts of brain and this breaks the effect of the method.
That said I wish I was myself so completely skillful as to not indulge in some forms of relief. The point I try to make is that when recognized it is never worth pursuing. There are better experiences which can be had and experience of relief is a hindrance in developing these experiences and developing methods to skillfully help mind remain in good shape. Whether any kind of maintenance has to be done on any part of the mind it is the what type of maintenance and where which need to be there, not experience of improvement. Once part of brain is sealed for maintenance new parts of brain take its place (or not if really whatever was sealed was not really needed functionally speaking) and no matter how I look at it neither triggering sealed parts of brain is needed to check if they feel better nor doing anything to make old and new parts of brain to arise together. Should information transfer be needed it would be best to do it before any sealing, not after. These parts of mind which were sealed are off limits and part of the sealing operation should be removal of all pointers to them. Cannot remove pointers if you intend to experience relief now can you
Anyways, regarding second paragraph of your post: Relation of body and neurotransmitters with energies is definitely there. It is because body drives energy, literally body makes it to arise and it collects it. Movement of pure energy can cause movement in physical mind, of course meditated by neurotransmitters. Because of that to have meaningful movement of energy, the one experienced in physical mind, we need to have neurotransmitters. Also to tune neurons to the energy itself to be sensitive to it (which is another matter entirely). Them (neurotransmitters) are available locally so one way except adding more neurotransmitters is to lock out any parts of brain which do not have them. Still with lots of usage it might happen neurotransmitters are used up and there is not much which can be used anymore for given experience. It is less of an issue if experience just needs to be pleasant and becomes more of an issue if we want specific experience which is taxing on neurotransmitters. In the first case if it is this or that experience doesn't matter. If eg. serotonin starts running low one could always have dopamine based experiences and if most stuff seems to be running out then go for almost complete cessation of mind and experience pleasure of rest. Experience whatever seems available and while at it try to be aware what it is, how it works, what is involved, how to recognize approaching limits of experience, etc. Some times it is useful to even overindulge to force oneself to not be able to physically experience something as this leads to need to develop something else. Though that said it is always more skillful to not overindulge and be able to easily able to experience everything without such practice methods... but sheet as they say happens and when it does it is best to make good use of the situation and maybe learn something new.
Also pure energy itself is something else. With methods to move it around it is possible to cause experience of wind inside body. Also energy itself is independent on expression in physical mind and other than strong experiences that happen when neurons are tuned strongly to these energies and can be triggered that energy can be experienced in the mind which is kinda outside physical mind, though in this case it can be very subtle. In fact whole subtle mind is subtle so that is to be expected. Moving energies within subtle mind does not require any input from or output to physical mind, hence it doesn't require feedback from it in form of actual physical/mental experiences. It is something to keep in mind when practicing because at times due to physical body's limitation it might seem something with energy cannot be done but actually it is just a limit of experience of physical body and it might be worth working with subtle energy itself despite lack of proper feedback from physical mind.
Also if one believes in subtle mind or not doesn't even matter. The same advice is valid for various sub-systems within physical body. So eg. if the kind of activity which can be described as moving energies is experienced strongly in one part of the body but there are barriers it might be beneficial to try to see if moving that energy using different kind of experience of energy can be done instead. If it can be then it should be done. Moving something that feels subtler a lot can cause nervous system to unblock its pathways that when operating feels less subtle. Nervous system will recognize activity and will make sure connections are made and proper amount of neuro-transmitters is available so it might as well be that after some time has passed from moving subtler energies it will be possible to move those which movement generate more meaningful experiences. In some kind of blockades it is even not advised to try to force things and rather work with subtler energies and when they can be moved through move them and wait until less subtle experiences feel ready to moved through.
I am sure a lot if not most of this stuff about energy you already know but since I practice with this stuff for almost two decades and put a lot of thought in to it why prevent myself from writing nice wall of text about it
Thanks for your thorough feedback! I’m quoting your post in its entirity just in case you would feel like deleting it, because I want to keep it.
I can’t do it with the kind of precision you are talking about, but I do understand some of it. I have moved subtler energies and find that it causes less body symptoms. It makes sense that only the grosser manifestations of energy would need neurotransmittors. I didn’t intend to bring those back. It happened by accident as I tried some foods that I have been avoiding for a long time, and it caught my curiosity. Interestingly, it also brought back the dukkha ñana energy stagnation pain and the grosser vibrations. With the latter in place, I noted that the reobservation throat vibrations are still gone, but instead there are similar gross vibrations in the heart chakra and the sacred chakra respectively at different points in the cycling, but only very briefly. I would guess that some contraction happens there - something to work with.
I definitely do not have your experience with energy work, so I appreciate your input. I’m just dabbling, but I find it very interesting.
(Yes, Chris and others, I will start a new log - even I find this one too long now.)