RE: Liberation Unleashed?

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Ben V, modified 1 Year ago at 4/25/21 4:02 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 4/25/21 4:02 PM

Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 394 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
Hi everyone,

Been looking at this website Liberation Unleashed

Anyone experienced their way of teaching/practice? I'm curious to know what anyone's experience with it is as I explore this further. 

Thanks.
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago at 4/25/21 4:33 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 4/25/21 4:33 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 1760 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I remember when it was a big thing on this website and they were recruiting, almost like a cult, people to go through it. (A search would probably find old stuff.)

​​​​​​​I haven't heard anything for a while. Are they still going 100% full speed ahead these days? I'll be honest, it seemed like one of those "new ideas on the block" type fads...  Is it still going strong?
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Ben V, modified 1 Year ago at 4/25/21 5:07 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 4/25/21 5:07 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 394 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
Thanks Shargrol.

I don't know much about them so I can't answer your questions much. I just found their website very recently it it made me curious. From it, it seems they are quite a developed community.

I tried to find old posts about it here on DhO but couldn't find any.

In any case, I will read more into their website and see. I'll proceed with caution emoticon
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Pepe ·, modified 1 Year ago at 4/25/21 6:10 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 4/25/21 6:10 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 573 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
There's a long thread of Ruthless Truth, a sister forum of Liberation Unleashed or so.

Brutal Beginnings (PDF)
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Year ago at 4/26/21 1:09 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 4/26/21 1:09 AM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 2435 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I joined that Ruthless Truth forum back in 2011. Crazy shit that is emoticon They really go after you and they don't go easy on you. I was there no longer than a week I think! I say thank you but no thank you. I much prefer gradual path. That shit can mess you up if unstable. Back then I was being hit by DN big time so going there was not the best of ideas. 

Btw, Ben how did your meetings with Kenneth Folk go? If I remember well you had a whole week with him. 
T, modified 1 Year ago at 4/26/21 12:58 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 4/26/21 12:58 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 279 Join Date: 1/15/19 Recent Posts
I created a login with them and worked with the head cheese for a while. They are much softer than the Ruthless Truth people. They're kind, but they don't give any room for excuses when the natural egoic habits start throwing up road blocks. Their intention is basically to point out how fallacious the idea of being a separate self is using examples and asking you to answer basic questions about one's first-hand experience. It's kind of like the headless way, in a sense.

For some people, they tend to "wham" and have it land. Others take a long time. Some don't get it. 

My experience with it was fine, but it didn't disappear "me." It just became more clear what "me" is, in reality. 
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Ben V, modified 1 Year ago at 4/26/21 9:10 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 4/26/21 9:10 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

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Thanks for the inputs Papa Che Dusko and T!
Joshua N, modified 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 10:20 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 10:20 AM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 4 Join Date: 11/15/20 Recent Posts
I just finished a conversation with a mentor on LU. It was a very helpful discussion for myself. I hadn't really observed the qualities of no-self in great detail before, moreso just impermanence and suffering (through Goenka-style Vipassana courses and some noting as well). It was helpful to observe the habits of identification that had been built up due to my meditation practices and not paying careful attention to the characteristic of no-self. Diving deep into no-self allowed me to also more clearly understand suffering and impermanence, and the ways in which they are connected. 

During particular moments along the direct inquiry, there were periods of intense sensate clarity. Life seemed to be moving slower, and at a much higher frame rate. Reactions were much smaller, and it was much easier to witness things happening as they are. An example might be vividly watching something fall off the counter and cleanly catching it as opposed to having a reaction and fumbling to catch it. Another example would be watching a movie and seing the entire scene with equal attention rather than only focusing on the characters in the frame. I was also able to notice much subtler adjustments in facial expressions, noting at least 2-3 every second. 

That was purely my own experience, and perhaps an afterglow of concentration or something. Who knows? Regardless I found it very helpful to have someone point for me. It helped to change the relationship to thoughts and to understand no-self at a much deeper level. 

​​​​​​​Did you end up working with a mentor, Ben? 
Chrollo X, modified 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 1:14 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 1:13 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 56 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
Joshua N.
I just finished a conversation with a mentor on LU. It was a very helpful discussion for myself. I hadn't really observed the qualities of no-self in great detail before, moreso just impermanence and suffering (through Goenka-style Vipassana courses and some noting as well). It was helpful to observe the habits of identification that had been built up due to my meditation practices and not paying careful attention to the characteristic of no-self. Diving deep into no-self allowed me to also more clearly understand suffering and impermanence, and the ways in which they are connected. 

During particular moments along the direct inquiry, there were periods of intense sensate clarity. Life seemed to be moving slower, and at a much higher frame rate. Reactions were much smaller, and it was much easier to witness things happening as they are. An example might be vividly watching something fall off the counter and cleanly catching it as opposed to having a reaction and fumbling to catch it. Another example would be watching a movie and seing the entire scene with equal attention rather than only focusing on the characters in the frame. I was also able to notice much subtler adjustments in facial expressions, noting at least 2-3 every second. 

That was purely my own experience, and perhaps an afterglow of concentration or something. Who knows? Regardless I found it very helpful to have someone point for me. It helped to change the relationship to thoughts and to understand no-self at a much deeper level. 

What kind of questions did they ask you to illuminate the no-self aspect in your experience? Like did they ask you specifically about your meditation practice? 
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Ben V, modified 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 12:35 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 12:35 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 394 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
Hi Joshua, no I did not. Didn't pursue it. 

​​​​​​​Good to read your experience of it though. 
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Dodge E Knees, modified 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 1:31 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 12:47 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 74 Join Date: 9/25/11 Recent Posts
I worked for a while with one of their mentors, and yes, it was intense, they do not let you off the hook. The questions almost immediately got my hackles up...I suppose that is the whole point.

But, as a result of the conversation, I did have what I would call a strong 'no doer' experience, lasting a couple of weeks. Like a super-witness state: it seemed there was no decision-making, just events happening by themselves, and the awareness of them. I have to say it was fantastic and still reverberates to this day.

Obviously, the experience faded though, and normal service returned. The LU mentor considered me 'done', and although there is a forum for those who have been through the process, further support was not really forthcoming. I did not, and do not consider myself 'done', far from it!

I don't regret the experience, in fact I got a lot out of it. I wouldn't recommend it if you are in a delicate or vulnerable state of mind though, it is a sledgehammer approach.

Cheers,

​​​​​​​Dodge.
Chrollo X, modified 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 1:49 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 1:49 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

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Dodge E Knees
I worked for a while with one of their mentors, and yes, it was intense, they do not let you off the hook. The questions almost immediately got my hackles up...I suppose that is the whole point.

But, as a result of the conversation, I did have what I would call a strong 'no doer' experience, lasting a couple of weeks. Like a super-witness state: it seemed there was no decision-making, just events happening by themselves, and the awareness of them. I have to say it was fantastic and still reverberates to this day.

Obviously, the experience faded though, and normal service returned. The LU mentor considered me 'done', and although there is a forum for those who have been through the process, further support was not really forthcoming. I did not, and do not consider myself 'done', far from it!

I don't regret the experience, in fact I got a lot out of it. I wouldn't recommend it if you are in a delicate or vulnerable state of mind though, it is a sledgehammer approach.

Cheers,
Dodge
​​​​​
What kind of questions would they ask you? Would they about particular details of your daily life?
Joshua N, modified 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 2:56 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 2:56 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 4 Join Date: 11/15/20 Recent Posts
Jon and Chrollo: 

They did not ask about meditation practice at all. In fact, he advised me to slow down on the practice temporarily in order to not induce more "striving" habits. He did have me try more of an open sense awareness, trying one sense door at a time (he didn't use a Buddhist reference here though). It felt a little more like Zen style, which was refreshing for me. 

A lot of the questions were centered around: 
1. Where do you feel your sense of "I- I initially wrote things like I am awareness, I am my experiences, I am the reference point to my sensate experience, I am the qualities of myself, and so on. Over time we broke those down one by one. 

2. Explaining the process of experience, for example hearing. He would ask things like "Who/what is hearing?" or "Is the tone of the sound separate from the experience of it?" and things like that. It got me to notice how many experiences I would have in a day were acutally just riding off the mental impressions of those moments rather than actually seeing those things as they were. 

3. Questions regarding the experience of thoughts, feelings, and so on. Things like- where do thoughts come from, what are feelings, what are responsibilities, who/what is thinking, what are decisions, and so on. 

Questions would also be about specific content from our responses as well, digging to areas where we may be identifying. Language is tricky and in some ways fosters this sense of "I." 

Ultimately I don't think the goal of LU is to completely dismantle the sense of self, as there are still levels of self that are being dissolved well into Stream Entry. However, there seemed to be a resizing of thoughts for myself. They started to feel more like raindrops. It is simply a training of the mind to notice the sense of a separate self asserting itself and to notice things as they are and the self identification which attempts to follow experiences. 

At times it did feel to hit particular tender spots, however these were areas harboring thought patters which reinforced self-identification and inconsistencies. I found it very worthwhile as it has helped to see things a little bit more as they are. 
Chrollo X, modified 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 7:32 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 7:32 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 56 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
Thank you Joshua. I recently found Angelo Dilullo and his Simply Always Awake youtube channel and it seems that he points to the same thing, uncovering our stagnant beliefs and being vulnerable.  
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Ben V, modified 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 4:00 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 4:00 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 394 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
Any thoughts on whether what they aim for equates to SE?
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Dodge E Knees, modified 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 6:22 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 6:20 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 74 Join Date: 9/25/11 Recent Posts
I would say that what they aim for equates more to the 'I am' realisation, rather than SE as represented in MCTB.

​​​​​​​It is a sort of self- inquiry. At least it seemed like that for me.
Soh Wei Yu, modified 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 11:34 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/11/22 11:34 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Dodge E Knees:
I would say that what they aim for equates more to the 'I am' realisation, rather than SE as represented in MCTB. ​​​​​​​It is a sort of self- inquiry. At least it seemed like that for me.
Not exactly. Liberation unleashed need not lead to I AM. This is why one of the co founders, Elena Nezhinsky, went through the self-enquiry process and realised I AM only years after her initially 'gated'. LU does not lead to I AM but usually impersonality, but also sometimes nonduality etc, it depends on the clarity of the guide.

Also related - https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/10/is-liberation-unleashed-similar-to-atr.html

But yes it does not aim for MCTB's stream entry.
Chrollo X, modified 5 Months ago at 1/13/22 8:53 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/13/22 8:53 AM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 56 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
Soh Wei Yu
Dodge E Knees I would say that what they aim for equates more to the 'I am' realisation, rather than SE as represented in MCTB. ​​​​​​​It is a sort of self- inquiry. At least it seemed like that for me.
Not exactly. Liberation unleashed need not lead to I AM. This is why one of the co founders, Elena Nezhinsky, went through the self-enquiry process and realised I AM only years after her initially 'gated'. LU does not lead to I AM but usually impersonality, but also sometimes nonduality etc, it depends on the clarity of the guide.

Also related - https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/10/is-liberation-unleashed-similar-to-atr.html

But yes it does not aim for MCTB's stream entry.


So one can attain stream-entry and not attain 'I AM' and vice versa? If so, if a stream-enterer attained 'I AM', what would the added benefit be and vice versa?

​​​​​​​At some point along the traditional theravada 4th path model, is the 'I AM' realized?

Do the fetters get cut when using the Awakening to Reality map? Why don't they if not? 
Soh Wei Yu, modified 5 Months ago at 1/17/22 9:41 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/17/22 9:41 AM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Chrollo X:
Soh Wei Yu
Dodge E Knees I would say that what they aim for equates more to the 'I am' realisation, rather than SE as represented in MCTB. ​​​​​​​It is a sort of self- inquiry. At least it seemed like that for me.
Not exactly. Liberation unleashed need not lead to I AM. This is why one of the co founders, Elena Nezhinsky, went through the self-enquiry process and realised I AM only years after her initially 'gated'. LU does not lead to I AM but usually impersonality, but also sometimes nonduality etc, it depends on the clarity of the guide. Also related - https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/10/is-liberation-unleashed-similar-to-atr.html But yes it does not aim for MCTB's stream entry.
So one can attain stream-entry and not attain 'I AM' and vice versa? If so, if a stream-enterer attained 'I AM', what would the added benefit be and vice versa? ​​​​​​​At some point along the traditional theravada 4th path model, is the 'I AM' realized? Do the fetters get cut when using the Awakening to Reality map? Why don't they if not? 
The I AM realization will bring out the luminosity aspect. In Daniel's MCTB paths, at the 2nd and 3rd path that is when you should look into the luminosity aspect and 'ground of being' teachings. Frank Yang realised I AM at his '2nd/3rd' path - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t8KvdMtT4A

Also see
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/11/what-is-your-very-mind-right-now.html

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/11/the-importance-of-luminosity.html
Soh Wei Yu, modified 5 Months ago at 1/17/22 9:43 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/17/22 9:43 AM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Chrollo X
Soh Wei Yu
Dodge E Knees I would say that what they aim for equates more to the 'I am' realisation, rather than SE as represented in MCTB. ​​​​​​​It is a sort of self- inquiry. At least it seemed like that for me.
Not exactly. Liberation unleashed need not lead to I AM. This is why one of the co founders, Elena Nezhinsky, went through the self-enquiry process and realised I AM only years after her initially 'gated'. LU does not lead to I AM but usually impersonality, but also sometimes nonduality etc, it depends on the clarity of the guide.

Also related - https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/10/is-liberation-unleashed-similar-to-atr.html

But yes it does not aim for MCTB's stream entry.


So one can attain stream-entry and not attain 'I AM' and vice versa? If so, if a stream-enterer attained 'I AM', what would the added benefit be and vice versa?

​​​​​​​At some point along the traditional theravada 4th path model, is the 'I AM' realized?

Do the fetters get cut when using the Awakening to Reality map? Why don't they if not? 


Can insight end fetters? It can but it also depends on your actualization.

As my dharma friend Kyle Dixon puts it:

"...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013

“The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.

Anatta realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the event. The nature of this realization is not often described in traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” that “burns” the kleśas.

The reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019


“Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021
Soh Wei Yu, modified 5 Months ago at 1/17/22 9:44 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/17/22 9:44 AM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Chrollo X:
Soh Wei Yu
Dodge E Knees I would say that what they aim for equates more to the 'I am' realisation, rather than SE as represented in MCTB. ​​​​​​​It is a sort of self- inquiry. At least it seemed like that for me.
Not exactly. Liberation unleashed need not lead to I AM. This is why one of the co founders, Elena Nezhinsky, went through the self-enquiry process and realised I AM only years after her initially 'gated'. LU does not lead to I AM but usually impersonality, but also sometimes nonduality etc, it depends on the clarity of the guide. Also related - https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/10/is-liberation-unleashed-similar-to-atr.html But yes it does not aim for MCTB's stream entry.
So one can attain stream-entry and not attain 'I AM' and vice versa? If so, if a stream-enterer attained 'I AM', what would the added benefit be and vice versa? ​​​​​​​At some point along the traditional theravada 4th path model, is the 'I AM' realized? Do the fetters get cut when using the Awakening to Reality map? Why don't they if not? 
Also keep in mind that when you talk about 'traditional theravada 4th path model' I have something different in mind but that is probably beyond the scope of this discussion -  http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/08/insight-buddhism-reconsideration-of.html , https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20
Chrollo X, modified 5 Months ago at 1/17/22 2:01 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/17/22 2:01 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 56 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
Thanks for the help. To summarize, the MCTB 4 paths don't lead to 'I AM' necessarily. But, around 2nd and 3rd path 'luminosity' becomes apparent leading to the 'I AM realization. The MCTB paths do lead to 'anatta' but without 'I AM'/'luminosity' the awakening is not complete. I liked the 'what is your very mind right now' pointer -- that seemed to resonate with something within me. 
Soh Wei Yu, modified 5 Months ago at 1/18/22 10:22 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/18/22 10:22 AM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Chrollo X:
Thanks for the help. To summarize, the MCTB 4 paths don't lead to 'I AM' necessarily. But, around 2nd and 3rd path 'luminosity' becomes apparent leading to the 'I AM realization. The MCTB paths do lead to 'anatta' but without 'I AM'/'luminosity' the awakening is not complete. I liked the 'what is your very mind right now' pointer -- that seemed to resonate with something within me. 
I AM is the realization of the luminosity of Mind. It must reach a point of complete certainty, doubtless realisation. As it matures Presence is also experienced as oceanic and bliss. It is possible to experience luminosity of five senses with nondual insight but without the I AM realization. It depends on each person whether they go through the I AM realization. To me, the I AM realization has been important for me which is why I recommend people to start with that, but it depends on each person's conditions.<br /><br /> 
Joshua N, modified 5 Months ago at 1/12/22 11:47 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/12/22 11:47 AM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 4 Join Date: 11/15/20 Recent Posts
You're welcome Crollo. 

I agree with the posts above about SE. I would imagine that for many new folks on LU, this is their first time with the concept of no-self. If anything, perhaps it gets them to "thoughts as thoughts," one of the very first stages leading to the A&P. The phrase "your mileage may vary" comes to mind here.

Once the illusion is "seen through" as said in LU, a process of reframing/deconstruction happens. To me this is similar to exploring Anicca or Dukkah in meditation and then noticing it in daily experiences. That is the ultimate goal-to train the mind to notice the 3 characteristics in all things, immeditately, just as we see words and gain knowledge and meaning from them right away. I think of LU as a crash course in how to notice qualities of no self in simple, daily life experiences. 

Perhaps if one is interested, but not yet ready to work with a mentor, try reading the book (available online) or going through the mobile app. Another option is to read through others' threads on the forum and observe the questions that are asked and how the mentees respond. Perhaps reading it in 3rd person will remove some of the cutting nature of the direct pointing. 
Chrollo X, modified 5 Months ago at 1/13/22 8:49 AM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/13/22 8:49 AM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

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Thanks for the tips! I'll give it a look. 
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Ben V, modified 5 Months ago at 1/12/22 12:09 PM
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RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 394 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
Is the mentoring face-to-face (verbally) or through email exchange?
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Dodge E Knees, modified 5 Months ago at 1/12/22 12:27 PM
Created 5 Months ago at 1/12/22 12:27 PM

RE: Liberation Unleashed?

Posts: 74 Join Date: 9/25/11 Recent Posts
Is the mentoring face-to-face (verbally) or through email exchange?

Mentoring is done on the forum itself.

If you check out the website, all past and current conversations are visible, or they were the last time I looked. This will give you a good idea how the process works.

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