Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

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Sasha F, modified 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 6:11 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 6:11 AM

Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 18 Join Date: 4/22/21 Recent Posts
Hello everyone,

For the past 2 months, my experience has been gradually becoming a single flavored fluxing field of vibrations. 
My body standing up on its own, deep-effortless flow states, and a lot of pretty cool and interesting stuff along the lines of the aforementioned.


Almost all of experience is a smooth wavelike manifestation with a few lumps in between. 
My practice is to stay with all of experience and not make any wave into a thing. 
A mantra that I've given myself and sometimes use is "There's nothing to thoughts but the very activity of thinking".
And recently a new one came up one morning - Perception is the perceived. 
Using these mantras helps me 'collapse' dualistic perspectives.  
(I use this verb because it really feels like once something is perceived in this certain way it collapses into the rest of the fluxing field)
Keeping the mind in a state that collapses every wave feels like threading a needle or like walking on a tight rope.
Recently I was blessed with a day of extremely sharp focus and was able to stay on the tightrope for a while, with every wave that passed experience felt lighter and lighter. 
Until the mind fell off the rope and mindfulness was lost and then after realizing it dissociated thinking that's how it'll get back on track. 
Dissociation at this point is a very familiar friend but this time around it is clear that for a lack of a better term 'it is made up of the same stuff as everything else'.
And that there is nothing that can dissociate nor anything to dissociate from. Just the physical sensations of dissociation. 
Well, those are my thoughts now but there also seems to be this habituated response of dissociating whenever mindfulness disappears. 
I remember in the early stages of my practice when trying to note 24/7 I would note-note-note-lose mindfulness-realize-dissociate-note-note-note.
I guess my mind just still keeps doing the same thing because I never worked on letting go of the habit since it became less and less frequent. 
The only antidote I could come up with is to stay very aware of how the mind responds to realizing 
mindfulness has disappeared and re-habituate a smooth transition back to what I want to focus on.
By mindfulness here I mean a constant awareness of where attention is or a constant stream of knowing that I am awake.  I know it is interrupted if I get the
hit with the 'wow, I just drifted off' feeling after.

I was hoping some of the more experienced practitioners could share some wisdom when it comes to dissociation.

The other thing is:
There are these energy currents located in the head and heart area that are present when mindfulness is present, and when they disappear, "I" disappear and dissociate or wake back up as soon as the mind realizes that mindfulness is gone.
Somewhere along the way I've solidified this state of mindfulness as me and as 'real' while losing mindfulness leads to engaging with 'not real'.
Also, I've noticed depressive energy going through my head every time I get excited to commit to something that might require me to drop mindfulness. 
It seems to be perpetuated by a fear that I will not be able to come back after going into a flow state(even though I've already done it many times) and that if 'I'm not there(not being mindful) I will miss the awakening event. 

"By mindfulness here I mean a constant awareness of where attention is." ->This was the first definition, but after some observation, I realize that in my
current experience the laptop that I am writing on already knows where it is on its own. A large part of the process I call mindfulness is this fast pinging - hyperactive process saying "me,me,me,me,me,me,me' all the time. Feels like this process often takes up to 60% of current signals being sent into consciousness. 
So when I look I see that everything is obviously seeing/doing itself in my experience except this process but there is a belief structure around it being an integral part in upholding this reality and perpetuating insight and who knows what else. Untying this knot seems like the way to go now. 
Just writing this out has allowed me to discover some sneaky contradictions that I can now have fun with!

Some wisdom on this would also be appreciated.


Peace!
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 7:24 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 7:24 AM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 4417 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Sasha --
​​​​​​​
Some wisdom on this would also be appreciated.

You're in the trees right now, deep in the detail of uncovering the mind's process. We have to traverse this territory. Keep observing, especially observing the process of confusing "me" with mindfulness. Eventually, your perspective will expand and you'll see the forest - the bigger picture.
George S, modified 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 7:58 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 7:58 AM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 2458 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Here's a slightly broader perspective to play with ...

Since everything you experience is made from mind, it's impossible not to be mindful (full of mind)!

Mindless mindfulness! emoticon
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 8:20 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 8:20 AM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 4417 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Since everything you experience is made from mind, it's impossible not to be mindful (full of mind)!

It requires diligent practice to see the former, which is a prerequisite to seeing the latter (if that perspective even matters at all as it's kind of like when folks say, "You're already enlightened."). Paying attention is how most practitioners would define "mindfulness" and that's a really good way to see it as we follow the path. 
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Sasha F, modified 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 11:53 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 11:53 AM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 18 Join Date: 4/22/21 Recent Posts
This feels good to read, thanks Chris.
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Sasha F, modified 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 12:17 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 12:17 PM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 18 Join Date: 4/22/21 Recent Posts
George S:
Here's a slightly broader perspective to play with ... Since everything you experience is made from mind, it's impossible not to be mindful (full of mind)! Mindless mindfulness! emoticon


Exactly! And I'll add:
If everything is clearly aware of itself(mindful by default in a way) then the mental process of mindfulness(and by that I mean the part of the mind/brain that creates this stream of knowing where "I" am and where attention is) is no different. 

If there's nothing more to thought other than the process of thinking, then there is nothing more to mindfulness than the process of mindfulness. 
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Sasha F, modified 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 12:24 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 1/31/22 12:24 PM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 18 Join Date: 4/22/21 Recent Posts
Everything is IT. You're already here. There is nothing to find.&nbsp;<br />All those sayings resonate deeply now because as everything is slowly waking up it became painfully clear that non-duality is not about some idealized state but rather a way of seeing.&nbsp;&nbsp;
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Sasha F, modified 4 Months ago at 2/15/22 8:26 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/15/22 8:26 AM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 18 Join Date: 4/22/21 Recent Posts
An update since last time:

During a sit 2 days ago, a realization happened that the very content of the sense gates is reality comprehending itself.
There was a belief that there is a separate understander -someone who must stay mindful and mentally process + make sense of all the signals coming through the sense gates. 
Now it feels like the search is over in a way - there is no comprehender outside of comprehension, everything is immediate for lack of a better word.
But there is also a feeling that this is still not it. A big weight has been lifted and now it seems to be just a matter of time and conditions before the rest of the field comprehends itself. The mind's 'motion blur' is what disrupts clear perception and everything seeing itself for what it is. 

During sits and in general, separation is felt between the field of happening and the process of choosing what intention to go for. 
I can sense/see multiple intentions/paths being offered and the "I' is felt most strongly when a choice to engage/ not engage with an intention is made. 
To simplify, the observer and the observed are the same thing in my experience, but the intention to observe is separate from the rest of the field. 

Sorry if this seems like useless information but it helps me sort out everything thoroughly and see some blind spots when writing about my situation to someone I know is more experienced. 
George S, modified 4 Months ago at 2/15/22 12:37 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/15/22 12:37 PM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 2458 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Try to do something that wasn't already going to happen.
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 2/15/22 1:47 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/15/22 1:47 PM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 2185 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
aloha sasha,

   The act of reflection, the act of writing about one's experience, however mindfully, creates a separation. When one writes in the first person, "I am having an experience," there is dualism inherent. I am hungry, I am tired, I am lonely, I am identified. In actuality, there is the phenomenon of hunger present, the phenomenon of thinking about hunger present, and no "I" at all. Zen has observed from its inception that only in silence can the truth be expressed.

   (bows)

   Your words involve some contradictions, as you perceive (loved: "perception is the perceived," btw). The basic contradiction is in your attempts to control the process, to "focus" on what you want to cultivate and to cultivate "mindfulness" at the expense of free rambling mind. This you see as being aware of what you are focusing on, but think of how this creates two persons where none is needed. One to be aware of what you are focusing on, and one to focus, when all that is happening is focusing, and indeed what you really need to be doing is defocusing and thus restoring your original nature to purity. This defocusing is not an actvity to be monitored and judged and overlaid with myriads of complexity but involves simple naturalness, letting stuff be, just letting the mud settle as a means to clarity.

you said: 

The only antidote I could come up with is to stay very aware of how the mind responds to realizing 
mindfulness has disappeared and re-habituate a smooth transition back to what I want to focus on.
By mindfulness here I mean a constant awareness of where attention is or a constant stream of knowing that I am awake.

   The contradiction here runs a little deeper than just seeing oneself going in circles (samsara). The ego you seek to escape is being reinforced by your struggles. Most spiritual spiritual people are in fact just digging themselves in deeper, making their egos more permanent, weighty and important to themselves. It's like psychiatrists being the craziest people, cops the crookedest and priests the most immoral, they are attracted to the work by a fascination with their own deficiencies and elevate them to the status of icons. Or exercisers who start with a goal of fitness and end up with stress fractures and nagging injuries. There's a middle way. For us moderns that generally means applying buddhism to the situations of everyday life with meditation and spiritual practices as an adjunct.


   In "the other thing" you observe the obsessive compulsive component of habituation in these practices as practices.

   You also begin to deconstruct 'knowing I am awake' and begin to appreciate the dissociation created by all this judgment and willful "progress" overlaid on what is the simple natural growth of awareness which happens in the healthy organism.

   Spirit is like water, seeks its own level, is not afraid of plunges, and fills any container without a shape of its own. It rains down from heaven, trickles down from the snowy mountains, gathers in freshets, streams and rivers; wild at first then slower until it becomes an ocean, evaporates and cycles again. Drops join by attraction and separate reluctantly but without memory or regret. 

   In your last post, you say:

To simplify, the observer and the observed are the same thing in my experience, but the intention to observe is separate from the rest of the field. 

   You would like the observer and the observed to be the same, but you persistently occupy the position of observer without knowing it. You can't know it. Accept it. Your fighting this only entangles you further and as a spiritual practicioner you can make a career out of fighting the good fight and never "winning by losing."

   Do what you can to be physically healthy and avoid stress, without being obsessive. If your practice inhibits these goals, it is not helping. Don't sacrifice your health and that of others for some "spiritual" goal. Remember, it's all right here right now and there is nowhere to go, no one else to be.

  Stay with us, kiddo, you can stop making progress and just sit. Let it happen. Its actually ok just as it is. Really ok.

terry

   
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 2/15/22 2:14 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/15/22 2:14 PM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 2185 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
already did...

​​​​​​​besides, most of what I do never happens...
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 2/15/22 2:19 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/15/22 2:19 PM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 4417 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
To simplify, the observer and the observed are the same thing in my experience, but the intention to observe is separate from the rest of the field. 

Where's that ol' intent coming from? 

emoticon
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Sasha F, modified 4 Months ago at 2/16/22 5:29 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/16/22 5:29 AM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 18 Join Date: 4/22/21 Recent Posts
Thanks terry,  after the last "everything is self-comprehending" insight it seems obvious that there is nothing to seek. It feels good that my intuition is aligned with your advice to let the mud settle so that everything pops into place.

 
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terry, modified 4 Months ago at 2/17/22 11:46 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/17/22 11:46 AM

RE: Advice on dissociation and collapsing the dualistic perspective

Posts: 2185 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
(gassho) (bows)

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