RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? x xx 3/17/22 6:52 AM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Soh Wei Yu 3/17/22 6:58 AM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Sigma Tropic 3/17/22 3:16 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? T DC 3/17/22 4:47 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Soh Wei Yu 3/18/22 8:39 AM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? T DC 3/18/22 11:00 AM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Soh Wei Yu 3/18/22 12:54 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? T DC 3/18/22 1:21 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Soh Wei Yu 3/18/22 1:30 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Soh Wei Yu 3/18/22 1:37 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? T DC 3/18/22 1:53 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Soh Wei Yu 3/18/22 1:59 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? T DC 3/18/22 2:47 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Ni Nurta 3/18/22 6:04 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Soh Wei Yu 3/18/22 11:37 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Chrollo X 3/19/22 12:14 AM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Soh Wei Yu 3/19/22 12:48 AM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Soh Wei Yu 3/19/22 12:46 AM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Soh Wei Yu 3/19/22 11:39 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Ni Nurta 3/20/22 2:27 AM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Chrollo X 3/18/22 7:33 PM
RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle? Sigma Tropic 3/26/22 1:17 AM
x xx, modified 4 Months ago at 3/17/22 6:52 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/17/22 6:51 AM

What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 3 Join Date: 2/24/22 Recent Posts
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS91M042OVI3TQ?sa=X&ved=0CAMQ4aUDahcKEwjYsvvEtM32AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ

At 13:41 to 14:45 in the "we are designed to awaken" episode here Eckhart Tolle describes his perceptual experience. If possible can we tell what path this aligns with, ie first path, second path, third path, fourth path?
Soh Wei Yu, modified 4 Months ago at 3/17/22 6:58 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/17/22 6:58 AM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Eckhart Tolle is at the I AM stage (stages 1 & 2) here: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

It may not correspond to MCTB paths.
thumbnail
Sigma Tropic, modified 4 Months ago at 3/17/22 3:16 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/17/22 3:10 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 370 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
If I had to make a crude guess I would say Eckhart is 2nd path in Therevada terms.  

He doesn't talk about structured meditation very much but I will say listening to him was very useful and applying his simple presence techniques are good background practice to be doing as a habit. Something about Eckhart's voice and presence has a calming effect and I would sometimes listen to his talks back in grad school while I was working in the lab and I got a lot out of his teachings. 

Good teachers will teach through interaction and not only the words. They will transmit a state of consciousness and invite you to resonate with that state of consciousness and give you guidance for doing so. 
T DC, modified 4 Months ago at 3/17/22 4:47 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/17/22 4:47 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 464 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
I've always put his initial awakening experience where he basically saw through the entire conceptual self during intense depression near the very end of the path, far beyond MCTB 4th, but clearly your milage may very.
Soh Wei Yu, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 8:39 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 8:38 AM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/10/the-power-of-now-by-eckhart-tolle.htmlT DC
I've always put his initial awakening experience where he basically saw through the entire conceptual self during intense depression near the very end of the path, far beyond MCTB 4th, but clearly your milage may very.

No, Eckhart Tolle only realised the I AM and impersonality. I have been through all the phases and am deeply familiar.

For more explanation on Eckhart Tolle's realisation and the issues at that stage, see:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/10/the-power-of-now-by-eckhart-tolle.html

And

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html
T DC, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 11:00 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 10:54 AM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 464 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Actually these things are open to interpretation - you or I or thusness or whoever is not categorically right or wrong, we're just interpreting it differently based on our own unique experiences.

Personally I had a very powerful experience late on the path, way after MCTB 4th, in which the entire concept of a separate self arose in my mind and was then seen through and discarded - this was basically right before full enlightenment.  I have always thought this sounded very similar to Ekart Tolle's initial awakening experience. 

​​​​​​​Maybe I'm giving him too much credit, maybe he would feel he actually realized some other prior stage.  However until we talk to him directly, we'll never know if he chanced upon an initial stage in your map, or a final stage in my map, or something else entirely. 

Hence ymmv  ;)
Soh Wei Yu, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 12:54 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 12:49 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now, on his I AM/Eternal Witness realization:


"The good news is that you can free yourself from your mind. This is the only true liberation. You can take the first step right now. Start listening to the voice in your head as often as you can. Pay particular attention to any repetitive thought patterns, those old gramophone records that have been playing in your head perhaps for many years. This is what I mean by “watching the thinker,” which is another way of saying: listen to the voice in your head, be there as the witnessing presence.

When you listen to that voice, listen to it impartially. That is to say, do not judge. Do not judge or condemn what you hear, for doing so would mean that the same voice has come in again through the back door. You’ll soon realize: there is the voice, and here I am listening to it, watching it. This I am realization, this sense of your own presence, is not a thought. It arises from beyond the mind.

So when you listen to a thought, you are aware not only of the thought but also of yourself as the witness of the thought. A new dimension of consciousness has come in. As you listen to the thought, you feel a conscious presence — your deeper self — behind or underneath the thought, as it were. The thought then loses its power over you and quickly subsides, because you are no longer energizing the mind through identification with it. This is the beginning of the end of involuntary and compulsive thinking." - The Power of Now



Notice this is very different from MCTB 4th path where the view and sense of an unchanging Witness apart from witnessed, along with any sense of a watcher, perceiver, doer, be-er besides self-luminous experience, sensation, colors, sounds, action, thoughts, is seen through and dissolved.


Sim Pern Chong, 2007/2008:


"I think Eckhart Tolle may have been suffering alot and suddenly he 'let go' of trying to work out his problems. This results in a dissociation from thoughts which give rise to the experience of Presence.

To me,  'I AM' is an experience of Presence, it is just that only one aspect of Presence is experienced which is the 'all-pervading' aspect. The non-dual and emptiness aspect are not experienced.. Because non-dual is not realised (at I AM stage), a person may still use effort in an attempt to 'enter' the Presence. This is because, at the I AM stage, there is an erroneous concept that there is a relative world make up of thoughts AND there is an 'absolute source' that is watching it. The I AM stage person will make attempts to 'dissociated from the relative world' in order to enter the 'absolute source'.

However, at Non-dual (& further..) stage understanding, one have understood that the division into a relative world and an absolute source has NEVER occcured and cannot be... Thus no attempt/effort is truly required." - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/09/a-compilation-of-simpos-writings.html


2006, conversation with John Tan/Thusness:

(5:25 PM) John: For one that truly experience anatta and emptiness, he will know that there is no other way towards liberation. Dualistic view is itself suffering. There is no escape and
cannot be compromised. so though ET [Soh: Eckhart Tolle, who is at the I AM stage] talked about the silence, there is the experience but there is no liberation. There is constant struggle. do not be deceived.  though what he said about the experience is quite true.
(5:27 PM) AEN: non-effort can only come from longchen's (Sim Pern Chong) sort of 'non doer' understanding am i right
(5:27 PM) AEN: oic why no liberation?
(5:27 PM) John: one cannot experience that blissful liberated experience in a dualistic mode.
(5:28 PM) John: yes....longchen (Sim Pern Chong) is beginning to understand more... just beginning...
(5:28 PM) AEN: oic
(5:28 PM) AEN: eckhart tolle in dualistic mode?
(5:28 PM) John: there are just certain experiences that cannot be described in words.
(5:28 PM) AEN: oic
(5:29 PM) John: it is like what ken wilber say about the non-duality experience and absolutely no witness without the layer of separation... how is this possible. it is 'seeing', awaking of wisdom, awakening of anatta and emptiness nature.  no other way can lead us to liberation.
(5:30 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:30 PM) John: i mean maintaining it like every moment. I mean the description of ken wilber is there. but the depth of the experience...i got to read the simple feeling of being.
(5:31 PM) John: however by the title, i think he is still not there.  (comments by Soh: it became clearer later that Ken Wilber is at Thusness Stage 4 and have not reached Stage 5 clarity of anatta realization)
(5:31 PM) AEN: o icic
(5:31 PM) John: lol
(5:31 PM) AEN: the title? u mean the simple feeling of being. wrong?
(5:31 PM) John: i have to read first lah. the title cannot reflect out one that is fully authenticated in suchness.  nevertheless, none i have read can correctly describe it so far.
(5:33 PM) AEN: oic.. so how to correctly describe it
(5:33 PM) John: the next thing to look out is the stability.
(5:33 PM) AEN: oic
(5:34 PM) John: i think ken wilber has engaged too much in theoretical conceptualization after the experience of non-dual. Seems to retrogress....hehe
(5:34 PM) AEN: hahaha icic
(5:35 PM) John: must practice hard. ”
 
“He [XYZ Rinpoche] focused more on awareness as background. Without realizing the nature of mind and phenomena, karma continues to be generated.
 
When there is a background, one can't liberate actually but generates subtle karma IMO. Only through realizing the nature of mind and phenomena one can self liberates (karma).” – John Tan, 2018
 
“There is thinking, no thinker
There is hearing, no hearer
There is seeing, no seer
 
In thinking, just thoughts
In hearing, just sounds
In seeing, just forms, shapes and colors.”


.....


Depending on the conditions of an individual, it may not be obvious that it is “always thought watching thought rather than a watcher watching thought.” or "the watcher is that thought." Because this is the key insight and a step that cannot afford to be wrong along the path of liberation, I cannot help but with some disrespectful tone say,


    For those masters that taught,
    “Let thoughts arise and subside,
    See the background mirror as perfect and be unaffected.”
    With all due respect, they have just “blah” something nice but deluded.

    Rather,

    See that there is no one behind thoughts.
    First, one thought then another thought.
    With deepening insight it will later be revealed,
    Always just this, One Thought!
    Non-arising, luminous yet empty!



    John Tan, 2009, the two stanzas of anatta in On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection

 
“The most direct and succinct explanation of anatta is that there is no actual seer of sights, no actual hearer of sound, etc., there is no actual internal point of reference, or subject, that is apprehending alleged referents, or objects.” – Kyle Dixon, 2020 https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/in52dv/new_here_can_someone_explain_the_concept_of/
T DC, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 1:21 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 1:20 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 464 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
https://vbchange.com/eckhart-tolle/

This is the classic Eckart Tolle awakening experience to which I was refering - it seems to me like he went real deep all at once, much more so than any initial stage.  Hope that helps.
Soh Wei Yu, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 1:30 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 1:30 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
T DC
https://vbchange.com/eckhart-tolle/

This is the classic Eckart Tolle awakening experience to which I was refering - it seems to me like he went real deep all at once, much more so than any initial stage.  Hope that helps.


That is just I AM awakening. I experienced all that during my I AM phase.

This is the I AM awakening and Nirvikalpa Samadhi (absorption in I AM):

"This withdrawal must have been so complete that this false, suffering self immediately collapsed, just as if a plug had been pulled out of an inflatable toy. What was left then was my true nature as the ever-present I am: consciousness in its pure state prior to identification with form. Later I also learned to go into that inner timeless and deathless realm that I had originally perceived as a void and remain fully conscious. I dwelt in states of such indescribable bliss and sacredness that even the original experience I just described pales in comparison."




And this is the intensity of luminosity, one of the Four Aspects of I AM that one experiences and should continue practicing after I AM, and I even quoted Eckhart Tolle in my article https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/12/four-aspects-of-i-am.html :
"I was awakened by the chirping of a bird outside the window. I had never heard such a sound before. My eyes were still closed, and I saw the image of a precious diamond. Yes, if a diamond could make a sound, this is what it would be like. I opened my eyes. The first light of dawn was filtering through the curtains. Without any thought, I felt, I knew, that there is infinitely more to light than we realize. That soft luminosity filtering through the curtains was love itself. Tears came into my eyes. I got up and walked around the room. I recognized the room, and yet I knew that I had never truly seen it before. Everything was fresh and pristine, as if it had just come into existence. I picked up things, a pencil, an empty bottle, marveling at the beauty and aliveness of it all.
A beautiful Groundsel flower blossom shows the harmonious manifestation of nature

That day I walked around the city in utter amazement at the miracle of life on earth, as if I had just been born into this world."



All these are before nondual and anatta awakening, all these are before the MCTB 4th path realization.
Soh Wei Yu, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 1:37 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 1:37 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
For anyone who has the interest, there is a thousand page+ Awakening to Reality Guide in my blog that elaborates on all these. https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg


About 50+ people in my AtR group has gone through the stages and realized at least anatta realization (Thusness Stage 5 and above).
T DC, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 1:53 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 1:53 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 464 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Just because he described it as "I am" doesn't necessarily mean it's the same "I am" in your system, developed independently by a completely different person.  Different people can have different interpretations and understandings of experiences on the path - basically my entire point.

Anyhow agree to disagree. 
Soh Wei Yu, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 1:59 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 1:59 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
T DC
Just because he described it as "I am" doesn't necessarily mean it's the same "I am" in your system, developed independently by a completely different person.  Different people can have different interpretations and understandings of experiences on the path - basically my entire point.

Anyhow agree to disagree. 


Everything I have read -- and I have read all three of his books multiple times, and countless of his videos (I used to subscribe to Eckhart TV more than 10 years ago before I unsubscribed), and everything was consistent with what I experienced during my I AM phase. So I am 100% sure it is similar.
T DC, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 2:47 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 2:29 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 464 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Thank you for explaining. I used to be similarly hardline in thinking that certain experiences I read about related directly and exactly to my own map and experience. 

However in retrospect, such black and white thinking did not allow appropriate openness towards the diversity of other views on the path.  And it caused increased division and argumentation, and was unnecessarily alienating.  My way or the highway is never a good way to win people over to your side or find common ground. 

Just something to consider.  I am also more or less certain that what ET described is similar to my own experience, but I'm not pressing that point because it is clear you have your own interpretation, and I am fully aware of the futility of arguing about it.  ;)
thumbnail
Ni Nurta, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 6:04 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 6:04 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 931 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Eckhart looks like someone who is at level of mature Stream Enterer.
Technically to be Stream Enterer in Buddhism person needs to be Buddha's student but not to be on the level.

And I mean real 1st path, not blip blop something changed experience which might some day evolve in to realization what we are emoticon
Chrollo X, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 7:33 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 7:33 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 60 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
Yeah stream-entry without some strong eureka factor doesn't make any sense. Awakening is a w/o a shadow of a doubt kinda experience. No sussing out needed. The suttas don't talk about any wiffling and waffling with SE. If you know, you know. 
Soh Wei Yu, modified 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 11:37 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/18/22 11:35 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
Eckhart looks like someone who is at level of mature Stream Enterer.
Technically to be Stream Enterer in Buddhism person needs to be Buddha's student but not to be on the level.

And I mean real 1st path, not blip blop something changed experience which might some day evolve in to realization what we are emoticon

I would disagree.

First of all we need to know that MCTB stream entry is not universally agreed as the standard sutta stream entry. For example, my understanding of sutta stream entry is similar to this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20

Which would make it more akin to MCTB 4th path.

But in any case, Eckhart Tolle's realization would not line up with either 1) MCTB's 1st path and fruition cessation, nor, 2) MCTB 4th path, or my own definition of 'sutta stream entry'.

It is a distinct realization, the I AM, more akin to Thusness Stages 1 and 2 http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html, or Kenneth Folk's Second Gear.
Chrollo X, modified 4 Months ago at 3/19/22 12:14 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/19/22 12:14 AM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 60 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
Soh Wei Yu
Ni Nurta
Eckhart looks like someone who is at level of mature Stream Enterer.
Technically to be Stream Enterer in Buddhism person needs to be Buddha's student but not to be on the level.

And I mean real 1st path, not blip blop something changed experience which might some day evolve in to realization what we are emoticon

I would disagree.

First of all we need to know that MCTB stream entry is not universally agreed as the standard sutta stream entry. For example, my understanding of sutta stream entry is similar to this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20

Which would make it more akin to MCTB 4th path.

But in any case, Eckhart Tolle's realization would not line up with either 1) MCTB's 1st path and fruition cessation, nor, 2) MCTB 4th path, or my own definition of 'sutta stream entry'.

It is a distinct realization, the I AM, more akin to Thusness Stages 1 and 2 http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html, or Kenneth Folk's Second Gear.


Why doesn't ATR talk about cutting fetters? Can you say you've cut the fetters up to 3rd path+? Is it your goal? What do you think it takes to cut the fetters? Becoming a full time monk? 
Soh Wei Yu, modified 4 Months ago at 3/19/22 12:48 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/19/22 12:36 AM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Chrollo X
Soh Wei Yu
Ni Nurta
Eckhart looks like someone who is at level of mature Stream Enterer.
Technically to be Stream Enterer in Buddhism person needs to be Buddha's student but not to be on the level.

And I mean real 1st path, not blip blop something changed experience which might some day evolve in to realization what we are emoticon

I would disagree.

First of all we need to know that MCTB stream entry is not universally agreed as the standard sutta stream entry. For example, my understanding of sutta stream entry is similar to this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20

Which would make it more akin to MCTB 4th path.

But in any case, Eckhart Tolle's realization would not line up with either 1) MCTB's 1st path and fruition cessation, nor, 2) MCTB 4th path, or my own definition of 'sutta stream entry'.

It is a distinct realization, the I AM, more akin to Thusness Stages 1 and 2 http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html, or Kenneth Folk's Second Gear.


Why doesn't ATR talk about cutting fetters? Can you say you've cut the fetters up to 3rd path+? Is it your goal? What do you think it takes to cut the fetters? Becoming a full time monk?


In the suttas, the Buddha spoke of hundreds of lay students attaining (fetter model) stream entry, sakadagami and anagami. He didn't name lay arahants but we have a few, like Bahiya, who attained arahantship even before formally taking refuge let alone formally taking the monastic vows. Although technically he might be considered a bhikkhu even without undertaking the vows formally since all arahants are also by definition a bhikkhu, a true renunciant who has renounced all attachments and thus are incapable of transgressions (the 9 transgressions the arahant cannot perform: *The Nine things an Arahant cannot do: 1. Store up possessions, 2. Intentionally kill any form of life, 3. Steal, 4. Perform sexual intercourse, 5. Tell a deliberate lie, 6. Act improperly out of desire, 7. Act improperly out of ill-will, 8. Act improperly out of delusion, 9. Act improperly out of fear (from Anguttara Nikaya 9.7)) and so on even without the need of a rule or vow simply because they have completely eradicated all traces of the three poisons of desire/craving, aggression/ill-will/anger and delusion/ignorance and hence are simply incapable of performing any actions/karma as a result of these kleshas or afflictions. That would be the traditional view of things, which is not the MCTB take on things.

There is a chapter on overcoming emotional afflictions in the AtR guide.

Would I say I am an anagami which will be by definition celibate in the suttas and incapable of enjoying any kind of sensual and sexual pleasure, no. What would it take to completely eradicate the ten fetters? Continue practicing and mastering the three trainings of sila, samadhi and prajna until the day all traces are 'burnt' (see below).

But I can relate to my dharma friend Kyle Dixon's descriptions, which I also pasted in the AtR guide:

"...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013


Someone had the misunderstanding that Kyle Dixon is a “follower” of Soh and John Tan. Soh clarified,

“Kyle Dixon is not a student or follower of mine or John Tan in any way. His realizations happened prior to his encountering us, about eight years ago. He is a dzogchen practitioner and I am not. The fact that our insights coincide is simply a coincidence. There are some others who have had insights triggered by my writings, but Kyle is not one of them. Furthermore, I do not have “students”. I also do not claim “full enlightenment”.” Kyle has written a very nice account back in 2012 of his own realization: Advice from Kyle Dixon - https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2014/10/advise-from-kyle_10.html

(Update: Kyle Dixon learns Dzogchen from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and since around 2012 has started learning from Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith. Had the good karma to meet Malcolm and Kyle in California in 2019 [completely coincidental because Malcolm does not live there and just happened to be visiting]. Malcolm said Kyle is the first to totally get his view. Also, in 2020 John Tan and I started attending Malcolm’s Dzogchen teachings which we think is very clear:
http://www.zangthal.com/, https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2014/02/clarifications-on-dharmakaya-and-basis_16.html . Although I would add, Kyle did say he had learnt things from John Tan and I too. But I would say it is not some sort of formal student-teacher relation. I have learnt many things from Kyle too.)


“The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.


Anatta realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the event. The nature of this realization is not often described in traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” that “burns” the kleśas.

The reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019


“Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021
Soh Wei Yu, modified 4 Months ago at 3/19/22 12:46 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/19/22 12:46 AM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Also my goal is Buddhahood as defined in Mahayana and Vajrayana but that is perhaps beyond the scope of this discussion.
Soh Wei Yu, modified 4 Months ago at 3/19/22 11:39 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/19/22 11:38 PM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
But in summary, on Buddhahood:

On distinguishing the difference in attainment between an Arahat or Pratyekabuddha and a Buddha, the Mahayana scripture Lankavatara Sutra states, “...Therefore, Mahamati, the assurances given to shravakas and bodhisattvas do not differ. Mahamati, what doesn’t differ is the taste of liberation when shravakas and pratyeka-buddhas or buddhas and tathagatas get rid of the obstruction of passion, not when they get rid of the obstruction of knowledge. Mahamati, the obstruction of knowledge is purified when they see that dharmas have no self. The obstruction of passion is removed prior to this when they become accustomed to seeing that persons have no self. It is when the seventh consciousness ceases that they are liberated from the obstruction of dharmas. And it is when the habit-energy of the repository consciousness ceases that their purification is complete.”
“[To attain Buddhahood], you must free [yourself] from 2 obscurations and 4 mara.” – John Tan, 2020

According to Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna there are two obscurations that prevent us from fully knowing the nature of phenomena. The first is called the afflictive obscuration, which is the fetter of an internal subjective reference point that the self is attributed to, and the second is called the cognitive obscuration, which is everything else that stands apart from our deluded sense of self, so all objects; persons, places, things.
For some reason these obscurations can be uprooted at different times.” – Kyle Dixon, 2021

*
https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php...
Two obscurations (Tib.
སྒྲིབ་པ་གཉིས་, dribpa nyi; Wyl. sgrib pa gnyis) — emotional and cognitive obscurations.
● Emotional obscurations are defined according to their essence, cause and function.
In essence, they are the opposite of the six paramitas, as described in the Gyü Lama:
"Thoughts such as avarice and so on,
These are the emotional obscurations."
Their cause is grasping at a personal ego, or the “self of the individual”.
They function to prevent liberation from samsara.
● Cognitive obscurations are also defined according to their essence, cause and function.
In essence, they are thoughts that involve the three conceptual ‘spheres’ of subject, object and action. The Gyü Lama says:
"Thoughts that involve the three spheres,
These are the cognitive obscurations."
Their cause is grasping at phenomena as truly existent, or, in other words, the “self of phenomena”.
Their function is to prevent complete enlightenment.”




Mahayana and Vajrayana including Dzogchen do however agree that a Buddha has eradicated all kleshas/afflictions:

“There are three traditional methods of dealing with emotions: abandoning them, transforming them, and recognizing their nature. All three levels of Buddhist teaching, all three yanas, describe how to deal with disturbing emotions. It is never taught, on any level, that one can be an enlightened buddha while remaining involved in disturbing emotions - never. Each level deals with emotions differently.



Just like darkness cannot remain when the sun rises, none of the disturbing emotions can endure within the recognition of mind nature. That is the moment of realizing original wakefulness, and it is the same for each of the five poisons.



In any of the five disturbing emotions, we do not have to transmute the emotion into empty cognizance. The nature of the emotion already is this indivisible empty cognizance.” - Vajra Speech, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Why would you accept afflictive emotions? They are afflictive and are the root cause of suffering.

Either you renounce them, transform them or self-liberate them. But you certainly don't accept them. That way just leads to further rebirth in samsara.

M” – Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith


“We do bad things, non-virtuous things, because we are afflicted. Afflictions are never a part of oneself but they do define us as sentient beings. If you want to stop being a sentient being and start being an awakening being you have to deal with your afflictions via one of three paths I mentioned.

Why am I a sentient being and not a Buddha? Because I am subject to afflictions. How do I become a Buddha? By overcoming afflictions and attaining omniscience. How do I begin? By setting out on one of the three paths, depending on my capacity.” – Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith


“Mr. JK said: What you're describing is the duality found in Christianity. saying we are impure and must better ourselves.

Kyle Dixon replied: Not at all, this is literally the teaching of Dzogchen, Śrī Siṃha one of the original Dzogchen masters, who was Padmasambhava’s guru, states:

This is acceptable since a so called “primordial buddhahood” is not asserted. Full awakening is not possible without being free of the five afflictions... It is not possible for wisdom to increase without giving up afflictions. Wisdom will not arise without purifying afflictions. (Bolded and emphasized by Soh)

Likewise, Khenpo Ngachung, one of the greatest luminaries of recent times states:

In any system of sutra or tantra, without gathering the accumulations and purifying obscurations, Buddhahood can never be attained. Though the system of gathering accumulations and purifying obscurations is different, in this respect [dzogchen] is the same.

Longchenpa states:

All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence (ngo bo) of mind is purified, samsara is purified... The essence of mind is an obscuration to be given up. The essence of vidyā is pristine consciousness (ye shes) to be attained... That being so, it is very important to differentiate mind and pristine consciousness because all meditation is just that: all methods of purifying vāyu and vidyā are that; and in the end at the time of liberation, vidyā is purified of all obscurations because it is purified of the mind.

Even Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, Mingyur Rinpoche’s father, states:

Purification happens through training on the path. We have strayed from the basis and become sentient beings. To free the basis from what obscures it, we have to train. Right now, we are on the path and have not yet attained the result. When we are freed from obscuration, then the result - dharmakāya - appears... the qualities of the result are contained in the state of the basis; yet, they are not evident or manifest. That is the difference between the basis and the result. At the time of the path, if we do not apply effort, the result will not appear.
Thus there is still much for you to understand about how Dzogchen actually works. You are only speaking of the side of the nature, the state of Dzogchen, but the side of appearances, the side of the practitioner, is not pure and perfect just yet. The two sides meet when the practitioner recognizes that nature, which is not presently known, and trains in the method and view.
5” – Kyle Dixon, 2021, krodha (u/krodha) - Reddit
thumbnail
Ni Nurta, modified 4 Months ago at 3/20/22 2:27 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/20/22 2:27 AM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 931 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
@Soh Wei Yu
I hope all these lists of conditions do not detract you from the goals set out before Bodhisattva to become Buddha

I am not sure what goal you have but I can tell you that rather purifications and what-not the only thing that matters for Buddha is your spiritual stomach to endure, analyze and defeat all the spiritual sheet that will come your way. It doesn't matter how clean you yourself are but how clean and improved you can make things which need cleaning and improving. For you know Buddha is just a servant that helps when they feels like it. It would make sense for you to be able to help from time to time in some way if you want to join the Buddha party. Otherwise anyone is already Buddha even if they didn't do anything big yet and just did anything, it is enough to smile and make other person smile and you just became genuine Buddha emoticon

It makes sense for future-to-be Buddha took some lessons under Buddha. It is a tradition of sorts. This is what I mean Stream Entry is. Attainments like "MCTB 4th path" are something else and have not much to do with Buddhism. At least I do not think so and I consider myself Stream Enterer, Buddha, also Arhat because I did  copy some both mind and spiritual tech from other people who considered it worthy calling as Enlightenment. I invented my own spiritual tech, lots of it actually. I discovered ways to discover breaking bugs in systems rendering them completely broken and it is spiritual systems which hold people captive this is what makes me consider myself a pretty awesome Buddha. I do not need to be super pure myself, just for my quirks to not affect my overall performance. The better weapons I have the less necessary it becomes for me to be stainless because nothing can touch me. At least touch me and survive not being blown to emptiness if its not nice enough. Of course any issues caused by my own stray negative energies are my responsibility and as bad as it is when it happens it happens people need to be experienced in dealing with negative energies and as long as I can make it up to them of my less than stellar performance it is all good. It is not like you can possibly purify yourself 100% and then enter action and not become tainted again almost immediately. Far better for the task at hand is imho to learn licking your wounds and putting some maggots in them.

Also if you intend to become Buddha then please hurry up with whatever it is you still need doing.
The work is piling up and someone must go through backlog. If you can spell ABC, solve for x equations like 2 + x = 4 and do that but in spirituality with arbitrary energies then you are hired!
thumbnail
Sigma Tropic, modified 4 Months ago at 3/26/22 1:17 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 3/26/22 1:17 AM

RE: What stage is this description from Eckhart Tolle?

Posts: 370 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
Chrollo X
Yeah stream-entry without some strong eureka factor doesn't make any sense. Awakening is a w/o a shadow of a doubt kinda experience. No sussing out needed. The suttas don't talk about any wiffling and waffling with SE. If you know, you know. 
+1

Breadcrumb