Why do people do not like to just think for thinking sake itself?

Ni Nurta, modified 1 Year ago at 3/20/22 5:28 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/20/22 5:28 AM

Why do people do not like to just think for thinking sake itself?

Posts: 1046 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Say we have topic where answer is options:
a) answer A
b) answer B
Those options seem mutually exclusive.

Now whether person faces such choice they will try to evaluate all arguments for and against each option and pick one... but unfortunately not quite, they won't only not evaluate all arguments but immediately formulate opinion, usually based on arguments they were presented first. In extreme cases total nonsense can be believed for the whole life even though logic behind reasoning is lacking and obviously made up. Just because something was introduced early on and it was something they choose it now becomes very important to keep this option somehow.

This is one way people show how much they do not like thinking.

If whole problem is presented all at once, with arguments for each option and topic is sufficiently removed from anything that came previously and arguments are presented in such a way to spread introducing too much pro/against arguments for any given option at once then people might often not even want to engage in thinking and seem to randomly pick one option in hope the whole thing goes away and discussion stops.

That is another way I noticed in which people do not like to think.

If for whatever reason issue arises again and they remember their choice they hastily made in the past they will now feel they need to defend it and it will be hard to convince them of anything. They will think up arguments, not always smart of course but they will engage if they need to defend their arbitrary choice. But only as much thinking as that. Whether issue is put aside no more thinking about it. Zero, null, None.

That is yet another way in which people show they really do not like thinking itself.

So what is up with people they do not like thinking?
I like building whole trees of associations between various options. In case there is multiple things affecting multiple things there are often some arguments for certain things affecting whole thing in some maybe even small but measurable way and especially when at times potentially such thing can be major deciding factor in something it makes sense to always consider that option when thinking about whole issue. Any new fact, especially affecting larger branches will cause whole tree of associations to need weights associated with probabilities changed and processing this is such a bliss.

Yet people seem to be all about trimming options they consider to absolute minimum, preferably binary true/1 or false/0 with issue arising being immediately being met with dukkha and in hastily panicky way has to be answered with whatever points to their definition of true and any contra-arguments causing them emotional distress eg. indicated with them starting to be jerks.

And this not liking thinking is shown especially when discussant is not about merely trying to always answer 0 when they say 1 but explore all sorts of different options, put arguments for what they believe is false, but also true and other options... People then might get completely dazzled and ask "so do you think it is 1 or 0?" and answer such as "I am considering different options" is an answer that for them is more akin to "its best to end this discussion" and not invitation to maybe drop trying to prove it is 1 and not 0 but to discuss whole thing, re-evaluate it. This rarely happens, almost never. I do not remember much examples when arguments about anything hit anyone hard enough that they even flinched. And I am thinking all cases, of my own discussions but also conversations I merely observed. It is such a rare occurrence that someone admits that maybe they were wrong and even if that happens other side does not do the same. It does happen, fairly often regarding emotional outburst but not facts. People might say that they should not talk like they did but facts themselves... noo... the option which was true at the beginning of discussion is always true at the end of it, always!

Again, this indicates people does not like thinking itself. It is always "quickest route to achieve agreement on true" which is just like "quickest option to end suffering".

If you followed my train of thought and understand what issue I am trying to communicate then what do you think causes this specific aversion to thinking itself? Why do you think people do not like having more things in mind when thinking about something even if that is the surest way to get better bigger picture of the whole thing and they rather like to reduce options as much as possible even if that obviously causes their world-view to also be reduced?

I find having to recalculate all the weights each time new facts arise ecstatic and the bigger the topic with more branches involved the bigger the ecstasy. Might provoke people to force them to give some facts they know. Not always yield good results because rather than engaging with what I say they use binary system of thinking and this rarely yields any new facts, just rephrasing old facts like I didn't knew them before. Some times it does happen that someone answer causes my views to change, even if by few degrees in some direction I am then happy and consider whole discussion worth it. Some times it completely flips and it is even better outcome. I do not like however that in eyes of people it is always that either someone whole reasoning is wrong or all is right, nothing in between. I do not often get satisfaction of also changing someone else world-view because its just at most reinforcing whatever views they had, doesn't matter if my arguments were good or bad and which direction they pointed to. Any change in weights is impossible and certainly dukkha. Hence this topic.

So what do you think causes people to dislike thinking?
Not enough thought leaves on mind tree to focus on everything at once and not experience power failure and dukkha?
Clinging to world-views?
Related to not having idea how to change mind configuration in meditation as well?
Use old outdated shoes?
Thoughts, anyone?
Sigma Tropic, modified 1 Year ago at 3/20/22 10:22 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/20/22 6:59 AM

RE: Why do people do not like to just think for thinking sake itself?

Posts: 370 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
I think that people don't like thinking because it hurts. It's a really sticky habit to be flung around with their thoughts because you think thay your "self" is on the line. You experience discomfort and uncomfortable sensations and get neurotic and then if they can't seem to handle the act fo thinking itself, they will start being behaviorally led around by their thinking, i.e. being born into different identified versions of self and acting out neurotic habits of behavior. 

The logical mind is a wonderful instrument but unfortunately the nature of dukkha is that the self-concept will come in and lead to reactive emotional signals in response to stimuli. People are not aware of this until the torment becomes so bad that they just wish it would stop. They know the thinking mind is associated with this discomfort but they don't understand what's going on or that there is a different way to relate to the thinking mind. 

Personally I quite enjoy thinking logically and consisering the big picture of ideas and how they relate to one another. Taking different sense contacts from the environment and combining that with stored "files" based on previous experience is kind of fun when you see it happening all by itself effortlessly and the reactive/emotional mind is not getting in the way. When there is this perspective, it seems like the true power of the mind is allowed to shine in its radiance and it's a beautiful thing. It seems like life can take on a new dimension of nuance and subtlety, and where previously you would be drawn involuntarily and reborn into a distored worldview with a self-concept that is on the line, now you see that things just really as they are and there is nothing wrong and ever could be. 

When you can use the mind in this way my experience has been that reality seems to becomes quite malleable, everything feels like it is fresh and new and perfect and there is this really dream - like child-like wonder because nothing is wrong!

You can see both opinions and put yourself in the shoes of both sides of the argument at hand, and being able to understand why someone would think and certain way based on their stored data files and taking the duality out of it, taking out the enemy, taking out the sense of good vs. evil, and not articficially creating a self-other just because it's a evolutionarily evolved habit of mind. 

So I think that's a big reason why we practice is to be able to use the mind up to its greatest potential. When there is not energy being diverted from the mind through useless unpleasant bouncing around with uncomfortable attachment to the self-concept, the energy of the mind can be put to it's proper use.   
George S, modified 1 Year ago at 3/20/22 9:39 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/20/22 9:39 AM

RE: Why do people do not like to just think for thinking sake itself?

Posts: 2752 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
I sometimes do math problems for fun and get into a light jhanic state using the problem as a concentration object.
supermonkey :), modified 1 Year ago at 3/20/22 1:39 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/20/22 1:38 PM

RE: Why do people do not like to just think for thinking sake itself?

Posts: 113 Join Date: 8/11/20 Recent Posts
George S
I sometimes do math problems for fun and get into a light jhanic state using the problem as a concentration object.
Which one? Possibly all of the first four?
George S, modified 1 Year ago at 3/20/22 2:39 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/20/22 2:23 PM

RE: Why do people do not like to just think for thinking sake itself?

Posts: 2752 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
There is still piti, so no higher than second, but it's pretty light because there is still thinking going on and I'm not intentionally cultivating the state. As the bliss gets stronger it's harder to keep thinking and it feels like getting sucked into a deeper jhana.