second or the third attainment

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voidness sakkya, modified 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 4:14 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 4:14 AM

second or the third attainment

Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/13/22 Recent Posts
It has been 4years.i had entered to another shore,sometimes I wish to have someone to discuss with me these  years meditation experience, but the teacher and all others will think,it is not a humble action,how can you let other people know what you had gain, they might think you are too proud to talk about your own attainment.apart from this, I also have some questions to ask,if anyone who had read the attachment (I wrote down those years what I had gone through),if you also had found the answer,please kindly share with me .
With gratitude
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Ben V, modified 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 9:23 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 9:23 AM

RE: second or the third attainment

Posts: 394 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
This was inspiring to read (your attached text). I don't have answers since what you describe is much more advanced than my experience. I do have a question though. That first experience of emptiness you had after reading the words ''Nibbana is Void'', even though the teacher told you it cannot be Nibbana because your were still in ''materiality-mentality'', in retrospect do you think it was indeed a Nibbanic fruition?

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Sigma Tropic, modified 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 3:44 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 12:29 PM

RE: second or the third attainment

Posts: 329 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
I also have some questions to ask,if anyone who had read the attachment (I wrote down those years what I had gone through),if you also had found the answer,please kindly share with me .
Thanks for sharing your story here, and welcome. 
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voidness sakkya, modified 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 6:34 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 6:34 PM

RE: second or the third attainment

Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/13/22 Recent Posts
That related to the past life.i posed the question to the teacher whether I had gained this attainment in my previous life,but no answer,this answer can only give by buddha.the first time I experienced wasn't really the first time, I had experienced this voidness several times before I started my several years intensive retreat.but only when I read the voidness is nibbana,i started to enter to it day and night.maybe because it was related to the vipassana practise since then, so I can enter to the frution by wish.annica,dukkha, anatta is the key.
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Ni Nurta, modified 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 7:16 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 7:16 PM

RE: second or the third attainment

Posts: 930 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Very nice summary.

Few points:
1. Your view on 'ignorance' is wrong.
You can perfectly master everything Buddha taught, teachings, practices, mind states, etc. and still hold on to ignorance regarding Buddha and his dharma. And what is Buddhadhamma? Handful of leaves from the forest of his knowledge. What is Buddha's forest compared to all forests? Single atom holds more dharma than all forests in all the worlds hold leaves. When you recognize yourself then it is hard to take any plant matter as significant amount of dhamma.

BTW. I am trying to stress this point because most people who claim 4th path show very high level of ignorance. Higher than when they began. Best to avoid such outcomes. If you know you know roughly as much as when you began then yeah, ignorance level might not be bad at all.

2. Moreover, there are many questions that can only be known and answered by the Buddha.
Buddha is cool guy if you get to know him. Less artificial and more human than glorifying him might make you believe.

Or do you mean it as Buddha-class being? Yes, if you set out to do the same as Buddha did then you get to know how these things come to be and get disillusioned about dhamma. Disillusioned about all dhammas and disillusioned about Buddhas!

3. I had never heard of the word “nibbana” in the beginning of my practice.
Seriously?
Nibbana or Nirvana is like most obvious and associated with Buddhism and Enlightenment term.
For years I didn't know about fruition, even having in few years quite a lot of them. I also didn't know about process of insight and nanas. It is the last part, and especially lacking knowledge about dukkha nanas that might be the worst thing. On the other hand struggling to end dukkha yielded fruits and I know how to do it.

Interestingly I never associated fruitions with Nibbana but merely switching of which parts of my mind were in use. Nibbana was like the 99% of my experience after 1st path and I knew it was Nibbana. Like non-experience from which time after time mind arose for a single moment experience of mind. Only because it referred back to itself each time it tried to create continuity. Tried because if I referred mind to experiences it often crashed nervous system.

The additional disruptions of mind which I practiced (mostly 2nd path in serious capacity - before I did these things had to be tested first so any attempts, even successful at 1st I do not count as practice but development) in order to make even this arising mind not arise referring so much to itself helped mind to be more flexible and not have to refer to itself.

BTW. I find it refreshing someone comes and talks about Nibbana. Most people do not mention it. Can you say you experience Nibbana for almost all the time with mind occasionally arising on top of it (often != it fills all the experience)

4. May all beings be able to attain a heart burning for the dhamma. May all beings be able to realize dhamma, to reach the end of suffering, to reach the other shore!
I do not want such things as people having burning heart for dhamma. If they want dhammas they should know how to get them.

It might seem obvious dhamma is the way when it feels good but many things feel good. The focus of Buddha was to people self-improve and keep themselves not slide back to heedlessness because according to him 8-fold path is the best guarantee to avoid suffering and developing noble minds, developing noble dhammas. When you learn theory about dhamma, start practices, experience mind states, etc. you might come to conclusion that these experiences in the form you experience them are somehow the point. They are but they are also not. More like a part of a method during early phases of its development.

5. This dhamma is profound, but also it is so simple. It cannot attained by cultivating deep knowledge and high intelligence. (..._) Only into such a heart, can the dhamma enter.
I agree. To get dhamma intelligence is not needed. Dhammas are already made. All that is needed is to experience them. Like Pure Abodes, experiencing them is extremely simple, nothing needs to be done.
In fact to become Arhat nothing needs to be done. Just taking dhamma as it is and using it. All the words people say is merely for others to be able to locate the dhamma, not for them to understand it from the words.

At least when I claimed Arhatship I did so because after seeing how easy it is to immerse myself in Pure Abodes at late 3rd path I took bunch of minds of enlightened people and made them my own. One of them was U G Krishnamurti and other was Ramana Maharishi. Oh, and of course Buddha. I also finished my own Enlightened mind state because I always aimed at being buddha myself. This last one required high intelligence because it had to be synthesized in to dhamma. It was 7 years ago. Since then I copied lots of dhammas, mostly from normal people. People have very nice mind states, especially when made in to pure abodes.
re4. Which dhamma is the heart of sentient be burning for exactly? I could choose one I think is the best but wouldn't that be silly?

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If you can purify any experience and experience Pure Abodes then you are 3rd path. In the latter part of 2nd path I also lost this strange presentation of 1st path with Nibbana being seen as background of experiences. Experience started looking pretty normal, say like highlights of experiences I had in late childhood early teens but with no confusion about order of events regarding agency/actions and any feedback system like experience of sense of self. In either way no burning desire for whatever dhamma I was infatuated with and more stability. Cycles of insight almost subsided with this infatuations being seen as cause. At this point I could even say I got enlightened. I didn't however even see this as 3rd path yet but it soon followed. Something in mind being distinctly 2nd jhana at 2nd path and 3rd at 3rd. Then obviously 4th at 4th. Then 5th at 5th, etc. This is different level of mind than bhumis were, different than nanas and different than jhanas using in waking awareness. I am like an onion apparently, have layers ;) If I have layers other people are layered too so you might want to observe how jhanic states shift within these layers.

BTW. On the other side of the eastern dhammas pond they claim that 3 characteristics of reality are: nicca, sukkha and atta. They are as right about this as Buddha was about anicca, dukkha and anatta.
You might want to ask your teacher about that. Might also want to realize this yourself. In order to walk middle way person cannot cling to one extreme and rather approximate reality by switching quickly (something like delta-sigma modulation, wiki it up) between these two extremes.

And if you wonder who the hell I am. Well, I am the guy who can experience everything he sees because apparently experiencing colors, experiencing walls, people and eg. how grass smells like in videos is how trying to improve eyesight ends when you start bringing spiritual development in to it. And it is pretty much my only practice I cared for in my life, like eyesight was singularity around which everything revolves in my mind and the way I chose for myself to become buddha myself. I do have good eyesight though and I know exactly how I am doing it, neuron level wise. I use the same neuron over-provisioning error-correcting tricks for mind states hence I can keep my mind focused and in samadhi for the whole day without any effort. To copy my dhamma you will need to increase your resolution quite a bit, your mind might crackle.

I am rather direct here. Typically I only talk here about tired neurons and not dhamma. BTW. It is impossible to overstate importance of letting neurons have good rest and optimizing mind for getting them enough rest without sacrificing mind's cognitive capabilities. More important than anything else... but perhaps best not open this pandora's box before this post becomes like most tl;dr ^^
George S, modified 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 7:18 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/13/22 7:18 PM

RE: second or the third attainment

Posts: 2461 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
You could try setting an intention before you meditate to recall the past life.
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voidness sakkya, modified 2 Months ago at 4/14/22 6:11 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/14/22 6:11 PM

RE: second or the third attainment

Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/13/22 Recent Posts
Friend,
With gratitude for all these compassion guiding.that's great wisdom from an opening heart.there are few things I also have some thoughts.
  1. You can perfectly master everything Buddha taught, teachings, practices, mind states, etc. and still hold on to ignorance regarding Buddha and his dharma. And what is Buddhadhamma? Handful of leaves from the forest of his knowledge. What is Buddha's forest compared to all forests? Single atom holds more dharma than all forests in all the worlds hold leaves. "
In other words,according to the zen teaching, ignorance is not different from wisdom,everything is the same.only the perception make things different.i can understand, in the total liberated one's eyes, we hold on nothing, let go of everything.
But,in therevada teaching,according to visudhimaga,especial when we practice vipassana by using the venerable sariputta's anupadadhamma-vipassana,we contemplate every single mentality as annica dukkha annata.in daily life we sometimes emphasis on feeling,sometimes contact, sometimes Sankara,sometimes consciousness ect.i think I'm not so clever,so I can not hold on this Buddha nature this idea deeply,it is too high for me, but it is easy for me to do it step by step by understand each thought,and go into the thought, and in details to see their manifestation and understanding them ,familiar with them,digest them.if I know this ignorance,I get to know their masks,and I know how it manifest,I know it's energy,and it's habitual tendencies,only after I digest these processes,I can go to see the ignorance is the same as wisdom, I don't have wings to fly a big mountain , so I need to step by step, moment by moment mindfulness.this way is more suitable for my level.but for those who have high parami, as long as they see the arising perishing , they can quickly let go of all the form and sanna, attain total liberation,they might fit for that way .

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voidness sakkya, modified 2 Months ago at 4/14/22 6:13 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/14/22 6:13 PM

RE: second or the third attainment

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Already recollected the past lives by dependent origination,but attainment details can not know, only partially.
George S, modified 2 Months ago at 4/15/22 7:13 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/15/22 7:05 AM

RE: second or the third attainment

Posts: 2461 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
I think that's right. The next step is off the mountain altogether, into the complete unknown ...
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Huangbo, Transmission of Mind

If you students of the Way desire knowledge of this great mystery, only avoid attachment to any single thing beyond Mind. To say that the real Dharmakaya of the Buddha resembles the Void is another way of saying that the Dharmakaya is the Void and that the Void is the Dharmakaya. People often claim that the Dharmakaya is in the Void and that the Void contains the Dharmakaya, not realizing that they are one and the same. But if you define the Void as something existing, then it is not the Dharmakaya; and if you define the Dharmakaya as something existing, then it is not the Void. Only refrain from any objective conception of the Void; then it is the Dharmakaya: and, if only you refrain from any objective conception of the Dharmakaya, why, then it is the Void. These two do not differ from each other, nor is there any difference between sentient beings and Buddhas, or between samsara and Nirvana, or between delusion and Bodhi.

When all such forms are abandoned, there is the Buddha. Ordinary people look to their surroundings, while followers of the Way look to Mind, but the true Dharma is to forget them both. The former is easy enough, the latter very difficult. Men are afraid to forget their minds, fearing to fall through the Void with nothing to stay their fall. They do not know that the Void is not really void, but the realm of the real Dharma. This spiritually enlightening nature is without beginning, as ancient as the Void, subject neither to birth nor to destruction, neither existing nor not existing, neither impure nor pure, neither clamorous nor silent, neither old nor young, occupying no space, having neither inside nor outside, size nor form, colour nor sound. It cannot be looked for or sought, comprehended by wisdom or knowledge, explained in words, contacted materially or reached by meritorious achievement. All the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, together with all wriggling things possessed of life, share in this great Nirvanic nature. This nature is Mind; Mind is the Buddha, and the Buddha is the Dharma. Any thought apart from this truth is entirely a wrong thought. You cannot use Mind to seek Mind, the Buddha to seek the Buddha, or the Dharma to seek the Dharma. So you students of the Way should immediately refrain from conceptual thought. Let a tacit understanding be all!  Any mental process must lead to error. There is just a transmission of Mind with  Mind. This is the proper view to hold. Be careful not to look outwards to material surroundings. To mistake material surroundings for Mind is to mistake a thief for your son.
Martin, modified 2 Months ago at 4/16/22 10:20 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/16/22 10:20 AM

RE: second or the third attainment

Posts: 443 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Your story is very inspiring, Fay. Thank you. It's wonderful to read about how people practice in different ways, especially when it is as intense and devoted as your practice is!
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Ni Nurta, modified 2 Months ago at 4/16/22 1:54 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/16/22 1:54 PM

RE: second or the third attainment

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Yes, ignorance might be no different than wisdom. In fact ignorance is born out of idea of having absolute wisdom.

Not being ignorant means your knowledge/wisdom does not bondage you. Instead everything that is known can be used to figure out new things. Ignorant person clings to what they know and only try to confirm what they know. Anything that appears that it could be confusing is ignored, not investigated or even straight fought and rejected. This applies to both individual people and groups.

It is quite normal for people claiming 4th path to reject any notions that might be even remotely contrary to what they believe to be true. And this is despite arhathood apparently eliminating fetter of ignorance. I highlight this so that you do not fall in to this trap.

we contemplate every single mentality as annica dukkha annata.

Do you know that all things are also nicca, sukkha and atta?
Check it out, you might be surprised what you discover emoticon
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voidness sakkya, modified 2 Months ago at 4/17/22 11:03 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/17/22 11:03 PM

RE: second or the third attainment

Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/13/22 Recent Posts
Sadhu sadhu sadhu for your beautiful heart  and warm encouragement.with gratitude for your great metta energy.
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voidness sakkya, modified 2 Months ago at 4/17/22 11:06 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 4/17/22 11:06 PM

RE: second or the third attainment

Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/13/22 Recent Posts
With gratitude for your sharing, the dhamma is so sweet, it can open a heart which closed

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