Just thought i'd like to share an insight/realisation/whatever it was I had today. It wasnt really much of a WOAH moment, more of an 'oh...' and came a bit unexpectedly. I was just chillin out on the weekend, playing a videogame, messing around, exploring the virtual world when a sudden realisation hit me.

This is magic.

That this brain, this body, this piece of meat, this amalgamation of hard stuff, is aware. Just the bare fact that there is subjectivity at all is magic! Its impossible! I never even had to exist! But i do! All of us (me included) seem to walk around immersed in our problems and bullshit forgetting this simple fact that we actually exist at all . It really does seem to be this stupidly simple. From this perspective all my problems seemed to just fade. They appeared downright silly even.

Whatever 'I' am, whether theres a self/Self/non self/soul/ego/actual body seems to be besides the point. The fact that 'this' (whatever the hell 'this' is) is seeing things at all, is touching things, hearing things, thinking things, is miraculous. I really dont have any other word to describe it. This thing called awareness/subjectivity/whatever is magic. No other word. Everything else (even enlightnment haha ) is a bonus.

Then I went back to my videogame and shot stuff .....

Steve

edit: This particular moment of fascination with my own basic awareness/subjectivity was filled with sense of wonder and a 'quiet joy' and was definatley one of my most 'purest' experiences in the sense that it seemed to bypass and not rely on my ego. 'Naive' would probably best describe it. Although I disagree with alot of what AF is about (total extinction of self seems unneccessary and possibly delusional), Richards basic appreciation of being alive is one in which I am in complete and utter agreement with. If this is what the AFers mean by felicity then Im all for it. These emotions of wonder, appreciation, and delight I believe can do no wrong and they are most definatly worth cultivating by themselves.

What is worth knowing here is that the entire self, from the sense of I Am to the feeling of being[1], never existed in the first place. It takes the experiential realization of this fact for it to really make a difference in your experience of the world, the words of a page are only descriptions based on one persons experience and "head knowledge" alone does not end suffering.

I'm not a big fan of Richard's writing style or the AFT site so don't take this as a someone defending AF or Richard & Co., but what they're talking about, including the parts you disagree with, can be tested and verified by any intelligent human being. Extinction of the self, while accurate in it's description of what occurs, suggests that there was a self there in the first place when really this is the realization of what has always been the case.

Do you consider classical enlightenment to be delusional?

Hi Tommy

"What is worth knowing here is that the entire self, from the sense of I Am to the feeling of being[1], never existed in the first place."

If by self your talking about the ego or personal automony I am in agreement. This wonder at my own awareness or basic existence seemed to bypass or undercut the sense of ego. It was like a glitch in the system. With this wonder and joy, the ego seems to not be able to latch onto something and claim its own. I exist and thats more than enough ('I' being a focal point of subjectivity, basic awareness) It really is amazing and my petty problems and obssessions seem laughable if not tragic in this light. There was 16 billion odd years of no expereiencing happening, now there is. Amazing! Do people really understand the ramifications of this? That our own awareness is sheer gift, completely unneccessary? I think the whole HAIETMOBA thing misses the point. Its not how am i experiencing this moment thats important, its the recognition that im experiencing this moment at all. Wonder and felicity is inevitable.

I suppose this basic awareness or subjectivity doesnt really need a 'me' to operate. It happens all by itself. I never asked to exist. I just do. I cant help not being aware, its always there in the background. Would this awareness be defined as a 'feeling of being'?


"Extinction of the self, while accurate in it's description of what occurs, suggests that there was a self there in the first place when really this is the realization of what has always been the case."

Im not sure I agree with this. Richard and co seem to be talking about a real change in the brain, not just a simple realisation. Affective feeling is a result of chemical secretions in the brain and body. They are actual and have actual effects on how I experience the world. Adrenaline causes fear and exitement. Richard and co claim to not have these feelings so this implies either;

1. Body no longer secretes these chemicals
or
2. Dissociation/Blindness to feelings

I dont see any other options.


Steve

Perhaps the physiological change, like the ones that happen at the various Path stages of enlightenment, is the consequence of the realization? Or maybe vice-versa?

I'm nowhere near qualified to answer that, and I wouldn't try since I can only base my answer on personal experience with the techniques referred to. As far as I can tell, at present I am entirely unable to generate any affective feeling no matter how hard I try. This change only happened today and so I can't say for certain what it is, i.e. AF or some Path-like shift, but based on what is happening as I sit here, in the world in its infinite wonder, at this moment in time your entire argument makes absolutely no sense.

I know what you're saying, but without major scientific research neither you nor I will know for certain what the physiological basis for these changes are. If you test the techniques we talk about so much on here you'll be able to verify it for yourself and not have to take someone's word for it, they genuinely do what they say on the tin.

Your description earlier sounded pretty much like a PCE and if this is the case then the very question you're asking could have been answered there and then.


Absolutely, we're not even in control of being aware either and it's so wonderful! Remember that HAIETMOBA is no more than a tool, a technique which allows one to experience what it is to apperceive, it's not the endpoint and it's just one way of doing exactly the same thing: turning the attention to the senses. All the question does is to incline the mind towards how one is generally feeling so that you can get a feel of the quality of your experience; if it's not felicitous and friendly you find out why not and then get back to the sense doors again. That's it.

All of these techniques we talk about are methods of getting a taste of that perfection you saw. Imagine living that way for even a few days. Imagine you could live that perfection for the rest of your natural life. It's possible and if this recent change is what I suspect it might be then I can highly recommend it as a very sensible, effective and enjoyable way to eliminate suffering for oneself and others.

I hope you find what you're looking for, but don't let untested beliefs prevent you from doing it.

Hey Tommy, cheers for the reply. Im not entirely sure if my experience could be classed as a PCE. There was still a subtle sense of a self albeit a lighter less serious one. However, I am beginning to understand how maybe the loss of affectivity/self could simply be a byproduct of this increased quiet joy and wonder (i think tarin alluded to this in one of the hurricane ranch podcasts) Strong feelings seemed completely unneccessary within this simple fascination of my basic subjectivity/awareness/ existence. Like clouds in the sky.The clouds of affectivity and ego were still there but seemed unimportant, like mere vapor.

This is interesting to say the least...

Steve