RE: Short EPRC promotional video

Olivier S, modified 11 Days ago at 5/5/22 11:38 AM
Created 11 Days ago at 5/5/22 11:38 AM

Short EPRC promotional video

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Dear All,

Just a quick post, at Daniel's request, to share this short video which was just released to explain some of the motivations behind the EPRC project !

As an FYI for those who may remember me from the time when I was more active on this forum, and may also remember my musings about philosophy, phenomenology, meditation, and wanting to do research around all that : well, I have been recruited by Emergence Benefactors, the charity designed to support the EPRC's research projects, and have been working since July 2021 on the Phenomenology and Theoretical Foundations projects. Hence, I am now lucky enough to be working closely with Daniel who, obviously, is the founder of this here forum. Yay !!!!!! It's been great fun and I feel extremely lucky to be part of that team.

Anyways, hope you enjoy it ! Feedback welcome emoticon

Best,

Olivier
shargrol, modified 11 Days ago at 5/5/22 11:48 AM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Thanks for the video and congratulations Olivier! emoticon
Olivier S, modified 4 Days ago at 5/12/22 5:11 AM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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shargrol
Thanks for the video and congratulations Olivier! emoticon
Hey shargrol ! Really looking forward to reading that book of yours emoticon
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Chris M, modified 11 Days ago at 5/5/22 3:44 PM
Created 11 Days ago at 5/5/22 12:02 PM

RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Great video - very much nails what I've learned is the purpose of the EPRC. The various people in the video have relevant professional experience in the domain and thus the video speaks with authority on a new and potentially controversial topic. I enjoyed watching it.

Olivier, I miss your active participation. Don't be a stranger! Feel free to start a topic that explains your participation in the EPRC and your work for the organization.

Best!
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Smiling Stone, modified 11 Days ago at 5/5/22 1:23 PM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Hey Olivier !
+1 with what Chris said ! We miss you here...

I enjoyed the video, how it's made, how Daniel and the other specialists from EPRC appear on the screen...
PRESENT... CALM... and PRODUCTIVE
That's my lefty me but something rubbed me the wrong way when I read that one. Yes, it's how the specialists appear. Yes, it's a valuable goal, the one explicitely advertised by MBSR and the likes, (by Goenka as well). But the whole work of Daniel has been to debunk these kind of claims : "productive" especially is a loaded word with many interpretations. I can see quite a few productive misfits here, none of them being sooo calm...

Well, you asked for feedback...
I am happy that you're a part of this, keep on the good work... and come back here sometime!

with metta
smiling stone
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Days ago at 5/5/22 1:52 PM
Created 11 Days ago at 5/5/22 1:52 PM

RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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If we remember you??? emoticon You little shmuck you! emoticon I named my youngest boy after you! emoticon Well, my partner said Oliver instead of Olivier but it came up because of you! emoticon 

Very happy for you! Keep up the good work! 

Papa out! 
Olivier S, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 8:26 AM
Created 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 8:25 AM

RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Thanks for the lovely comments guys, it's really nice to hear from you.

I wrote a reply but for some reason I wasn't signed in, or the system signed me out, and my answer disappeared !

I'll retype it later, but just wanted to react to Papa Che wrote in particular for the time being.

I knew your son was named Oliver but had not realized it was actually related with me : that is really awesome. Your message seriously moved me. Thank you for the honor ! My best vibes are flying your way, with a special one for your little Oliver emoticon emoticon

​​​​​​​
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Chris M, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 8:42 AM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Olivier --

Daniel told me yesterday that there is a much longer video, basically a deep dive into the EPRC whitepaper, available on the EPRC website. I cannot find that video.

Help?

​​​​​​​Thanks.
Olivier S, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 10:27 AM
Created 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 10:24 AM

RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Hey Chris,

I'm not sure which one he was referring to, but if it's the one I have in mind, then it's still being edited, as far as I'm aware, but should be uploaded sooner rather than later emoticon It will also be split up into shorter segments for those who don't want to go through a 2-3h video emoticon

This will be the most professional and thorough video about the EPRC project so far - however, there are other videos and podcasts where he explains things in quite a bit of detail - this one for instance, or this

@smiling-stone : I largely agree with your comments, but also can see why things were presented this way. For instance, check out this article about the importance of making the clinical world aware of the stages of insight, published in 2014 by Andrea Grabovac - who I believe is the one talking about productivity in the short video. Although I don't know her very well, I believe we can safely assume her own practice goes deep. The aim here is large scale communication, which means one must strike a difficult balance between boldness and neutrality, taking into account the needs of the mainstream - not easy !

​​​​​​​Best !
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Chris M, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 10:37 AM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Thanks, Olivier!

Daniel mentioned three videos specifically about the EPRC, one of which you posted here, another of which is being edited, as you said, and a third that I thought he said was posted on the EPRC website. The third one is the one I'd like to view, but I'll ping Daniel about it.

Sorry to bother you and take you away from the phenomenology and ontology of emergent phenomena emoticon
Olivier S, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 11:08 AM
Created 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 11:05 AM

RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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@chrismarti, I know how much you care about all this, in fact in my earlier message which got swallowed, I was saying that I would give some thoughts to the idea of starting a thread about all this, since obviously, this is one of the places where some of the most passionate people about this stuff hang out, and is important.

However, to be perfectly honest, doing the research and helping build out this massive project is itself pretty energy intensive, so, not sure how much I can realistically commit to. We're also spending time working on communications, such as medium articles and the likes, and things should shape up in the near future.

It's been an extremely stimulating learning experience so far, and a treat to work with good hearted and talented colleagues. However the scope of the endeavor can sometimes be a bit nervewracking to reflect on emoticon emoticon I also am honestly not sure how much I can share. 

A lot of time and money are being deployed behind the scenes to build the infrastructure, both in terms of organisation and research, which will allow this multi-decade effort to unfold, and perhaps most importantly, to actually be implemented and bear fruits. Just thinking about how many brilliant people have worked on this in the past, and yet not had much impact on the mainstream, is something that is both puzzling and fascinating to think about.

Thus, I've come to see Emergence Benefactors not only as the charity that will fund the research, which it is, but also as a think tank, which actively tries to figure out how to communicate hypothetical results and impact societies at the necessary levels (policies, healthcare systems, education, etc.) In fact, the White Paper of EB is being finalized and should be available soon ! 

In any case, that synergies and potential collaborations should arise if and when they must seems only natural. 
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Sigma Tropic, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 11:32 AM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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In my discussions with Daniel about this, which are ongoing, I have wondered whether the advertising is wrong. I think it is, and I see the medical rationale for why this pursuit is useful; valid but also limiting. There seems to be an assumption that meditative emergent phenomena are pathological. If the entire thing is based on creating a new field of medicine which I think is Daniel's vision - well that's limited I think because it's always approaching emergent phenomena as a clinical pathology, a view which is heavily influenced by the experiences of many with difficult "Dark Night" type phenomena. My personal experience with the "Dark Night" is quite limited. 

To truly get this awakening thing into the minds of our  society, I think that instead of advertising the project as a cure for a disease, it should be advertised also as a sexy cool superpower. We need to convince people that they should put time into development of their minds, and to do that, in order to reach a large swath of society- it should be skillfully advertised and we should take advantage of the unskillful motivations that underlie most people's practice in the beginning- to become transcendent, to become wise, special, ideal. 

If advertised this way then we can get the celebrities and influential people to play along- meditation toward awakening will be socially sanctioned- the cooler and sexier we can make meditation, the better. But I think part of the research should also involve the optimal way of drawing in the yogi, then the optimal practice for them to do to get awakened. They get awakened and then we already have the medical and psychiatric infastructure in place, so if people do have difficult experiences, we have a way of handling it properly. 

We have to be careful about the drawing in process- see yoga in the west is heavily sexualized and cut off from the original basis- but there is sexual appeal to yoga and I think if we modify how we advertise meditation/awakening then maybe theres a way to play into that advertising while still honoring the real substance of the traditions. 

Like, imagine- a government - payed for Institue where people can go to for free, stay as long as they want, where a bunch of spiritual teachers just hang out, freely give teachings, and live in harmony. There would also be a tech aspect to it- you have the latest awakenign devices and soundtracks and brain zappers available, and everyone visits this place- especially world leaders, they visit and recieve spiritual teachings, they commune together and lay down the guns regardless of whatever conflicts may be happening. They go to this center and most importantly, everyone agrees it to be a good thing worthy of doing. 

So to do that maybe you invent a sort of device that tunes exactly to the right frequency for a particular person (to develop this device, get all the energy weirdos together and get them with the engineers and the neuroscientists) and this device convinces them in exactly the right way of the merits of this awakening institute. So everyone at least agrees on one thing - the Institute is kind of like sacred human common ground. Imagine that. 

With technology advancing in such a way I see an opportunity for a combined effort to awaken everyone and integrate them properly as soon as possible. If everyone wakes up, well it's like enriching an organism from the cellular level. There will still be conflict and strife but it will be a simmering down and coming to harmony rather than increasing volatility and strife. 
Olivier S, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 12:20 PM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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This is not what the EPRC is trying to do, though ;). The project is not about trying to awaken everyone or advertising anything, but about developing high-enough quality understanding of the vast spectrum of possible emergent experiences and transformations, as well as the extremely complex causalities involved, so that people who want to awaken or any other goal of this type, or who are in the process of doing so, or those who teach these practices, or those who are in some way or another involved with people experiencing emergence, whatever their background or tradition of choice is, may be properly informed about possible venues and effects.

Currently, no one has all these answers. Essentially, the aim of the EPRC is to build the infrastructure within which emergence can be safely cultivated, and its potentially difficult variants, handled in a non-pathologizing manner. And I can assure you that Daniel is not the only one talking about potentially very, very difficult experiences which can arise as part of this - if you're interested in learning more about that, I would suggest reading about transpersonal psychology,  for instance the Grofs' books Spiritual Emergency, or the Stormy Search for the Self, and perhaps some of Kylie Harris' research about how personality traits influence manifestations of emergence, including sometimes inducing psychosis, e.g. her article on the relationship between schizotypy and spiritual emergency. My colleague Brian Spittles is about to publish a book about the relationship between psychosis, spirituality and the history of psychiatry at Aeaon books, which is where Daniel got MCTB edited, which might be of interest. These resources also contain much information on past initiatives similar to the kind you are describing : lots of thoughtful and no-less brillian people than us have spent considerable amounts of time on similar endeavors. They have not necessarily had as much impact as one would have guessed emoticon

There are many reasons why adopting a medical lense on this is a good idea, some epistemological, some pragmatic, some strategic, but a fundamental one is the idea of ethics. Medical ethics are founded on the notion of informed consent : patients should be properly informed about the risks, benefits and alternatives to the treatment modalities they are being offered. Now, if we take these standards and apply them to the domain of emergent practices, e.g.the centers which propose to teach them in residential context (retreat centers,), or the world of psychedelics, etc. - these standards are unfortunately not always being respected.

edit : Given your interests, you may be interested to look up the SEMA lab at UArizona and what Jay Sanguinetti and Shinzen Young are doing there. Also, for a more complete picture, the EPRC white paper goes into all this at length.

edit 2 : But, yes, this project is limited in scope, it is just one possible venture, which is what's nice about it in my opinion : the project is big, but it's finite. Definitely won't exhaust everything that can be done around emergence ! emoticon There is room for many approaches and orientations within the ecosystem.

Best !
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Chris M, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 11:28 AM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Olivier, I'm sorry you feel pressured by my request. I'll back off and talk to Mr. Ingram, who has already mentioned the EB to me.

Thanks again - and please drop all your concerns for my queries. emoticon
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Chris M, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 11:46 AM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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The mission statement of the EPRC says this about the purpose of its efforts:

As emergent practices continue to scale up in society, our aim is to give health care systems, mental health providers, and those who are helping to teach and promote various practices the information they need in order to make better decisions about how to both promote the benefits of these practices and manage the various effects that they can produce.The Emergent Phenomenology Research Consortium’s mission is to use ontologically-agnostic, multidisciplinary, first-person, psychometric,  neurophenomenological, biochemical, and clinical scientific methods to conduct studies on emergent practices and phenomena to generate clinically-relevant information that can add value to practitioners, patients, clinicians, and healthcare systems. <emphasis added by me>

So the primary effort is not just to foster awakening per se, but to make clinicians aware of the emergent phenomena (positive or negative) that can be generated by the pursuit of awakening, and to create a solid framework from which those people can effectively treat those kinds of problems. As opposed to, for one example, treating these phenomena as mental illnesses, as Daniel mentions in the short video linked here. 
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Chris M, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 12:10 PM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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These nested replies are conversation killers.
Olivier S, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 12:21 PM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Chris M
These nested replies are conversation killers.


Indeed
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Chris M, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 12:26 PM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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By the way, I wouldn't call what the EPRC is doing by creating videos and writing articles "advertising." It's really fundraising, which is an absolutely necessary part of what must happen to realize the organization's goals. The videos and articles are meant to interest benefactors, educate them, incentivize them, draw them in.
Olivier S, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 12:37 PM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Chris M
By the way, I wouldn't call what the EPRC is doing by creating videos and writing articles "advertising." It's really fundraising, which is an absolutely necessary part of what must happen to realize the organization's goals. The videos and articles are meant to interest benefactors, educate them, incentivize them, draw them in.


Exactly, although it is also meant to communicate with the general public, as it is doubtful that these sorts of efforts alone would attract the kind of money needed to fund the thing emoticon

Hey, talking about fundraising, did you guys know that EB now accepts cryptocurrency ? hehehe ;)
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Chris M, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 12:46 PM
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... it is doubtful that these sorts of efforts alone would attract the kind of money needed to fund the thing emoticon
 
I didn't mean to imply that. Fundraising at this level requires a personal touch. There are many ways to the top of the mountain, right? Like getting big donations and crowd sourcing small donations.
Olivier S, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 12:51 PM
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Definitely ! 
Dan Latner, modified 10 Days ago at 5/6/22 12:57 PM
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So good. Keep it up y'all
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Smiling Stone, modified 9 Days ago at 5/7/22 5:58 AM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Hey Olivier, I wrote an answer this morning but just noticed it got eaten by the system. That's one of the first times I don't first write it on my computer, bummer!

Anyway, thanks for the clarification, I will read the article you linked, it looks deep and thorough. I do not doubt one second that Daniel gathered a bunch of very able people, and I am well aware of the complexities of communication and fundraising.
Just take it as some hippy feedback (to which I would add: "contemplative strategies", yukkkk!!!). It just feels good to know that I expressed my feeling about what I think is off...

I also wanted to thank you for
perhaps some of Kylie Harris' research about how personality traits influence manifestations of emergence, including sometimes inducing psychosis, e.g. her article on the relationship between schizotypy and spiritual emergency. My colleague Brian Spittles is about to publish a book about the relationship between psychosis, spirituality and the history of psychiatry at Aeaon books
The link between psychosis and attainments is obvious to me, and might run a little bit deeper than advertised here, so I will read your references with interest (the Grofs I am already acquainted with). It is reassuringto know that the EPRC inquires into these gray areas as well...

with metta, wishing you the best in your endeavours
smiling stone

(PS: about the nested replies, my view would be to answer at the end of the thread, except in the case of really personal conversations... and hooray to Siavash for repairing the messaging function of the forum!)
Gus Castellanos, modified 8 Days ago at 5/8/22 6:25 AM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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Thank you, Oliver, for a very good video describing the aims of EPRC. To me, it seems appropriate for a broad enough swath of the general public as well as specifically for practitioners, and importantly for meditation teachers, teacher training programs, retreat center operators, and clinicians. 
Notwithstanding the problems that traditional Medicine, Psychiatry, and the US Healthcare system have, they are not going away any time soon. Aligning EPRC with Medicine will add to its legitimacy and offer somewhat of a framework that may make it more understandable and attractive to potential donors and the public and for organizations to adopt future EPRC recommendations that are the result of the work. Plus, grounding in the ethics of informed consent and first do no harm is a good thing.
That said, from the little I know of EPRC, it will be working at the edges, perhaps outside the boundaries, of traditional Medicine and psychiatry and meditation traditions. All for the better, I think.
Congrats on the video. I'm grateful to have recently joined EPRC and look forward to working with you.
(FWIW disclaimer, I am a retired Neurologist that has been a mindfulness based program teacher (mostly MBSR) and researcher since 2009, and a vipassana meditator) 
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Griffin, modified 5 Days ago at 5/11/22 12:06 PM
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RE: Short EPRC promotional video

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What is the rationale behind choosing the term "emergent" when describing meditative/mystic experiences?
Edward, modified 5 Days ago at 5/12/22 12:10 AM
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Griffin
What is the rationale behind choosing the term "emergent" when describing meditative/mystic experiences?
I believe it's an allusion to Stanislav Grof's work in this area i.e. spiritual emergency but has the advantage of not explicitly using the loaded term 'spirit'. 
Olivier S, modified 4 Days ago at 5/12/22 4:58 AM
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Exactly, Edward emoticon The Grofs used Spiritual Emergence and Spiritual Emergency to distinguish between spiritual experiences associated with significant distress from others. Some discussion of this choice which resulted from a collective decision of the early EPRC people can be found here. Although the Grofs' stuff has significant issues in terms of being very interpretive and using syncretic terminologies, it contains a wealth of interesting information which has been very influential, has led to interesting research and the creation of the field of transpersonal psychology, and the inclusion of a new diagnostic code in the DSM-5 through the efforts of David Lukoff and his colleagues, although that thing is rarely used apparently. All good reasons to pay hommage to their work by building on the existing terminology which is bound to have a certain resonance and momentum within the cultural spheres that matter for this project, such as the American Psychiatric Association, for instance.

Essentially, the idea here is not some kind of paranoïd attempt from above to change the way people talk about their experiences or the vernacular names of things or the specific terms of religious traditions - it is rather, like the naturalists did in the 18th century, to describe and name in a way that can be used as a universal language for specialists or curious laypeople the world over the vast range of emergent (spiritual+meditative+mystical+religious+psychedelic...) experiences and effects. Think modern medicine : apparently a student of medecine has to learn about 30,000 words on their way to becoming an MD : words which most of us don't even know exist, but which serve as a universal language taught in medical schools everywhere. This is the same idea - crafting terminologies which are precise, straightforward, useful, and avoid the pitfall of favoring one tradition's frameworks and terms over another - which includes, alas, theravadin or mctb-based traditions emoticon 

The idea is also that this be perceived as helpful and useful to the various religious/spiritual groups, rather than as an existential threat, which would be a terrible outcome. This is why the EPRC focuses mostly on the non-cultural/universal aspects of emergence - the research is not meant to supplant anyone or anything, but to provide basic and solid understanding of the range of these experiences, and insight into the causalities involved, and have this be common knowledge in medical curricula, in spiritual contexts and beyond, common enough that they will be available to teachers, practicioners, as well as non-specialist and non-experiencer caregivers so that they may be able to refer those seeking help along the way to a network of skilful people, and perhaps even, emergent medecine specialists ? And that people experiencing emergence may stop being wrongly diagnosed with mental disorders which can be a lifelong, debilitating issue once the label is given out - which happens a lot - because of lack of knowledge of the good, the bad, and the weird which can and do happen along the way. emoticon

Thoughts ?
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Chris M, modified 5 Days ago at 5/11/22 12:16 PM
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To me using the term "emergent" reflects the surprising nature of the phenomena we can experience as a result of meditation. These phenomena arise naturally but are also unexpected. That's just my personal take, though. Maybe Olivier can give us the real scoop.
Olivier S, modified 4 Days ago at 5/12/22 4:55 AM
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 A few more thoughts...

​​​​​​​In the end, what we'll probably end up with is probably much more modest than people may initially envision : because the reality is that the state of knowledge of the mainstream about these things is so low, that the education that needs to happen for emergent experiences to be ethically handled is in fact probably more basic than we may think. This is just my thinking here, but I don't think this will settle the more subtle, perennial questions such as - what exactly is an arahat, or not ? or decide which ontology or system is better in the absolut for which people ? , etc. - but rather something like : the "A&P" or whatever we might call it exists, and is not a manic-episode. The DN exists, and is not psychosis. DPDR/meditation sickness exists, and is something that should probably handled in its own way.

What approaches to practice give what results in the long-run ? Is tearing through the DN through fast noting an approach that gives better long-term results than grounding and stopping practice when things get difficult ?, etc. If we are really honest with ourselves, there are so many basic questions we don't really have an answer for, and although there are excellent teachers - none of us know what meditative instructions are better for a certain person, none of us what he prevalence of these things actually is, none of us knows the full range of what can happen through something as simple as sitting on a cushion and how best to handle it, at the level that the pharmaceutical industry for instance knows what can happen when one takes paracetamol : individual variation is huge, and the causalities involved not well understood.

One thing I am coming to appreciate more and more with the value of a medical perspective is that, within the clinical disciplines, there is this thing called evidence quality. Evidence quality is what can lead official instances to formulate clinical recommendations. There is a hierarchy to strength of evidence : I'm no expert on this, so perhaps double-check, but schematically, Expert Opinion and Case Series are less strong than Cohort Studies and Controlled Studies are less strong than Randomized Control Trials and Meta-analyses are less strong than Good RCT's and Good meta-analyses of good RCT's.

From this perspective, the current state of the art on best practices regarding emergent experiences, would litterally all be considered as Expert Opinion and individual Cases as well as Case Series, which are considered anecdotal evidence, the lowest level of evidence. For instance when someone with real, valuable personal experience, gives practice recommendations and advice based on what works for themselves, although they have good intentions, they may very well be mistaken in thinking this can generalize to the person they are advising. How do you figure out what advice to give to whom, with the intention of favoring the good and avoiding the bad ? Seeing how varied people's proclivities and reactions to various practice styles and themes and contexts are, I have quickly come to realize my energies would be better spent trying to help further our knowledge than teaching something I clearly have little grasp on.

Which says a lot about the exacting standards and conservatism of medical research, and is sort of depressing when thinking about our favorite traditions and teachers, but is, if we are honest about it, true : everyone only has their own experience, knows a limited number of people, which why getting strong enough evidence that may lead to clinical trials leading to approval by health authorities of particular therapeutic modalities about very simple things cost so much and take so long. Getting one new drug approved by the FDA takes about 2 billion.

For instance, MAPS has been at it for thirty years, and have gotten 100's of millions in funding, but have now gotten to a point where they are in phase 3 clinical trials for approving mdma assisted psychotherapy in the US. Think about that ! People have been doing mdma since it was synthesized, and know that it can lead to interesting, fun, good outcomes, and also less good ones. But it takes thirty years of dedicated work and lots of money to get the clinical mainstream to recognize this - with the added benefit of getting extremely thorough understanding of the effects of mdma for whom, and guidelines for best use in a clinical context. This is a good example in this kind of space of what the EPRC is attempting.

In many ways this is essentially about doing the responsible thing, tedious, not-so-sexy, yet empowering work that will provide a context for all these things : the image Daniel uses is "If you're gonna build teslas, you need good roads". Similarly, although we have DMT and fire kasina and 10 or 30-day vipassana retreats, we do not currently have good emergent roads with a good system of roadsignes emoticon - not good enough that it could become common knowledge globally, anyways. How do you develop that, though, in a way that will not feel threatening to anyone, ideally ? A fascinating, though massive, problem to think about.

​​​​​​​edited quite a bit : I have not gotten better at keeping it short, as you can see.
 
George S, modified 4 Days ago at 5/12/22 12:10 PM
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Posts: 2382 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
I recently read this paper called A Wandering Mind Is an Unhappy Mind and they had a really neat way of collecting large amounts of subjective data. They developed an app and attracted 5,000 volunteers who would be polled at random times throughout the day and asked what they were thinking about and how they were feeling. They got a really clear statistically signifcant result on an aspect of subjective experience you might think would be hard to collect data on.

Just thinking out loud here, but if you are looking for different ways to collect data ... imagine having an app to track the progress of a cohort of noting practioners - hours spent meditating, which nanas they could identify having been in, any cessations, any emotional or psychological effects, any behavioral variations you might want to track (sleep, diet, exercise etc.) The user profile could give data like the meditator's age, relationship status, previous meditation experience, spiritual or religous orientation, any history of issues like depression, anxiety etc. (although not everyone would want to provide such information)

With the right kind of publicity around it (visualizing a clip of Daniel Ingram saying "Would you like your meditation practice to improve our knowledge of how meditation actually works and benefit future meditators? Then download the Insight Meditation Tracker today!"), maybe you could attract enough meditators to create a statistically significant data set. I don't know if that's the kind of data you're looking for, but just putting it out there in case it's helpful ...
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Chris M, modified 4 Days ago at 5/12/22 6:55 AM
Created 4 Days ago at 5/12/22 6:55 AM

RE: Short EPRC promotional video

Posts: 4325 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Honestly, that sounds about right. Good to set realistic expectations.
T DC, modified 4 Days ago at 5/12/22 12:14 PM
Created 4 Days ago at 5/12/22 12:14 PM

RE: Short EPRC promotional video

Posts: 437 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong - I thought one the intents of this project originally was to increase awareness among medical providers of the potential psychiatric type issues that people can experience as a result of intensive meditation practice.  It sounds like though it has evolved to include more of a general awareness of the risks and benefits of meditation practice? 

Basically, I thought Daniel's original intent was to get A&P/ Dark night freakouts into the DSM...  ;)

"Emergent" to me is most closely associated with the general medical usage - literally meaning emergency - but it sounds like EPRC is redefining the term to focus more on the general psycho-spiritual results of meditation practice (+/-).

Certainly I think having some standardized resources for meditation teachers with students experiencing meditation related psych issues would be incredibly helpful, which sounds like one notable aspect of the project. 
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Chris M, modified 4 Days ago at 5/12/22 12:34 PM
Created 4 Days ago at 5/12/22 12:28 PM

RE: Short EPRC promotional video

Posts: 4325 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
All of these questions, and more, are answered in the first several sections of the EPRC White Paper. I urge anyone really interested in what the EPRC mission, strategy, and tactics are to read this paper. And while it's chock full of answers to our questions, it's very interesting, to boot.

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