RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Mitz U 5/5/22 9:06 PM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Mitz U 5/7/22 6:32 AM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Chris M 5/7/22 7:19 AM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Adi Vader 5/7/22 8:30 AM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Ni Nurta 5/7/22 3:05 PM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Jazz Muzak 5/13/22 8:44 PM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Adi Vader 5/14/22 1:12 AM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Chris M 5/7/22 8:33 AM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Mitz U 5/7/22 10:30 AM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Mitz U 5/7/22 10:42 AM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Chris M 5/7/22 1:03 PM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Mitz U 5/8/22 12:33 AM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Jim Smith 5/8/22 1:58 AM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Mitz U 5/11/22 3:20 AM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Mitz U 5/11/22 3:19 AM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/8/22 2:49 PM
RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry? Mitz U 5/11/22 3:18 AM
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Mitz U, modified 1 Month ago at 5/5/22 9:06 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/5/22 9:06 PM

Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 16 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
 Hello everyone. I was on here 13 years ago. I used Daniel's book and these forums to help my practice which is mainly Vipassana and Noting, following advice here and Daniel's practice instructions. I thought that I attained Stream Entry definitely, and possibly 2 more paths. My guess is I attained 2nd or 3rd, or maybe just 2nd, not sure, but defnitely Stream entry. I stopped meditating due to personal problems.

Fast foward 12 years later and I'm back on the Hamster wheel of hardcore practice. I can tell I am going through Cause & Effect, 3 Characteristics stages again.

Is this normal? Shouldn't you be cycling from A&P to Fruiton and then back to A&P after you've reached Stream Entry?
Why is it that it feels like I have regressed?

I really do feel that my awareness is different now, using Daniel's "Room with objects" analogy. My awareness can see thoughts and emotions clearly like objects in a room. But it is so hard to remember what awareness was like before, and the difference sometimes feels subtle. 

But practice has picked up like I already am a veteran. I don't feel like a beginner at all, but I am going past these early beginner stages.

Is this normal? Have I really regressed? Or is it possible I never attained stream entry?
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Mitz U, modified 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 6:32 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 6:32 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 16 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
I meditate about 3-5 hours a day. So far, not getting into the "cycles", at least not like how it was before.

Although I do feel like I do get very deep. Thoughts anyone? Is this normal? 
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 7:19 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 7:19 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 4417 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Mitz, welcome to DhO!

My experience tells me that path moments are irreversible. The effects can fade over time, and not practicing at all might go a long way to dimming their effects. But still - not reversable.
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 8:30 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 8:30 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 118 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Path moments are step changes in dukkha. Once you acclimatize to a path you may lose the experiential memory of 'before'. You are on a new normal. This is my guess.

Regarding 'cycling'. I have always cycled from a dukkha nana. Never the A and P.
A and P is reported as a big event. This is mostly a matter of personality. For me it was always just a 'knowledge' emerging from attention engaging with objects at a particular level of skill. Both of these are atypical experiences.

My guess is atypical is actually quite typical. Since Acharya Buddhaghosha, many yogis have been scripting - I am generally suspicious of pitch perfect insight phenomenology descriptions.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 8:33 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 8:33 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 4417 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I am generally suspicious of pitch perfect insight phenomenology descriptions.

+1
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Mitz U, modified 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 10:30 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 10:26 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 16 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
Thank you for your replies, guys!

I'll describe my current practice:
Feeling more like I did when I stopped practicing and when I thought i was 3rd path, but I didn't notice any "Cycles". I just felt like I was going deeper gradually since last week.

Non-self feels like a gradual shift. Like, not 100% but it feels like I "forget" I have a self. It's not like I "realize" I don't have one. Meditation is not breath but letting go and paying attention to what vibrations and what pressure there still is - I identify these vibrations as Dukkha, things I am still subconsciously cliinging on to and blind to/ignorant of.

Still mostly or all pressure in the head. I feel main pressure is 3rd eye level. Meditation is mostly trying to feel this pressure in the head as dukkha and trying to let go of it, but it feels pretty thick. In this stage of practice, there is barely any self if any at all that I can sense, or maybe i'm just not paying attention to it. However, after I stand up on the cushion and move around and talk, the sense of self feels like it's coming back, although it feels quite "thin"

This doesn't feel like pre-1st path. I guess I feel relieved! 

"Once you acclimatize to a path you may lose the experiential memory of 'before'. You are on a new normal. This is my guess."
I guess I just forgot, but now I'm starting to realize the difference.
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Mitz U, modified 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 10:42 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 10:42 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 16 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
I think that... I've been so used to living a Dukkha filled life full of impulsively responding to triggers, that my mind forgot that I already had obtained path/s.

Just meditating for 30 minutes a day, or even an hour a day on some days seemed to not be enough to get it back to where I am now. It took continuous practice of 3-5 hours a day for about a week and a half.

But unlike before, I had no BIG A&P Event. No crazy energy emergences, not even a little bit.
You know that feeling when you start feeling your breath have a life of its own like when the A&P happens? I get the breath getting a life of its own but i just identify it as having it as a good meditation object and concenration is clicking. Now, it feels just like a small object, whereas before, it was a big object, since in the "Room with objects" analogy, that breath pre-path was like a big object occupying the whole room, now it's a small object because the room is much bigger. Sorry if this last paragraph isn't making much sense. I don't know if what I describe is correct.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 1:03 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 1:03 PM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 4417 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Sounds good to me.
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 3:05 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/7/22 3:05 PM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 930 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Adi Vader
Regarding 'cycling'. I have always cycled from a dukkha nana. Never the A and P.
A and P is reported as a big event. This is mostly a matter of personality. For me it was always just a 'knowledge' emerging from attention engaging with objects at a particular level of skill. Both of these are atypical experiences.

Surely you must experience some kind of elevated mood for your A&P. Maybe not full blown hypomania but more like feeling that the only thing left to do to own the world is deciding if its better to hold it in left or right hand emoticon

Then reality starts knocking and it is near impossible to drop the world. By realizing neither world nor any other idea or state from A&P goes anywhere when they are dropped and other things are done Dark Night can end pretty quickly.

If A&P doesn't happen then wouldn't that indicate you are clinging to the same things each time?
With very strong clinging going through whole DN might cause severe aversion to the topic so it doesn't arise. If you had more smaller things and drop them somewhere in the middle without realizing that you can always pick them up later. By itself any such thing should not cause issues and might be something that is experienced/triggered even during EQ, just experiencing something from time to time doesn't cause issues and EQ is very resistant to clinging. Then at some point after fruition it might be like this very thing is what you want to the point of clinging and that causes DN, especially because it was already used at EQ. Then it wouldn't really need vivid A&P and this cycle could repeat multiple times. It doesn't need to be manic thought, just something that causes clinging.

Just thinking out loud.
I'd investigate it like that. Make explanation and then put extra focus on various thoughts, experiences, actions (more like actions in mind), etc. which happen across the whole cycle and especially right before DN. Especially at 5th nana. Might as well some small corrections would eliminate this cause of DN and then mind could go for 'big evens' to have something to cling to.

My guess is atypical is actually quite typical. Since Acharya Buddhaghosha, many yogis have been scripting - I am generally suspicious of pitch perfect insight phenomenology descriptions.

It only shows people are susceptible to indoctrination an propaganda.
I would expect more people in given tradition would have eg. opposite realizations. Buddha was in traditions where Atman was supposed to be the ultimate realization and he invented realization of Anatman.
Now the question would be: if it was Anatman was the to go realization at Buddha times would he just accept it or would he invent realization of Atman?

I think it would be the latter. He was just a rebel emoticon
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Mitz U, modified 1 Month ago at 5/8/22 12:33 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/8/22 12:33 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 16 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
Hi guys. Right after writing my last posts, I realized i was in A&P. Thats partly why i got so excited all of a sudden. Now after waking up the next day, i am experiencing the classic A&p symptoms! Ok, finally! Back on the hamster wheel! Metta <3
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Month ago at 5/8/22 1:58 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/8/22 1:55 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 1132 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Mitz U
...

Is this normal? Have I really regressed? Or is it possible I never attained stream entry?
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I think it's hard to tell from an internet post so please don't assume I am trying to imply an answer one way or the other. I'm not. I'm trying to provide information that some readers (not just the thread creator) might find helpful or interesting.

I think in this case the fetter model offers a better way to evaluate the question.

I understand why people like the progress of insight, it seems to offer a very orderly way to evaluate your progress. I am not trying to criticize it.

But in this case I think it simplifies things to consider that steam entry means you are unfettered by identity view. And someone wondering "Did I have stream entry or not" would seem to be affected by identity view.

The heart of the matter is why do you care if you have had stream entry? Will you practice differently one way or the other? If you just want to know if you have reached an attainment to be proud of yourself, or to compare yourself with other people, or you want to be be able to think of yourself as someone who has stream entry, then that is still living with identity view.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago at 5/8/22 2:49 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/8/22 2:49 PM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 6428 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
When you start working on the next path, you will go through the lower ñanas according to Daniel (he says so very explicitly in one of his vimeos), and that has been my experience as well, so it sounds quite normal to me. 
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Mitz U, modified 1 Month ago at 5/11/22 3:20 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/11/22 3:05 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 16 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
test. oh god typed a lengthly reply and it didnt post. to summarize, thank u for reply. My asking is to validate the whole progress of insight if it indeed were real. if it were irreversible, then what better way to verify it than an out of practice meditator of 1 decade. as i believe i confirmed, the maps are legit. i did not lose stream entry.

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Mitz U, modified 1 Month ago at 5/11/22 3:19 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/11/22 3:16 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 16 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
regarding identity view, honestly while i dont want to deny that i have an ego and maybe some identity view wc i am working on, it was more a question of should i feel a bit of Relief or feel the daunting weight of having to do it all again, and the feeling that i lost something that i worked hard for, that would have been a big blow...
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Mitz U, modified 1 Month ago at 5/11/22 3:18 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/11/22 3:18 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 16 Join Date: 5/5/22 Recent Posts
thank u. i have been rereading his book and trying to find the stuff ive forgotten. i was confused whether u repeat everything from a&p OR back to mind body after fruitons
Jazz Muzak, modified 1 Month ago at 5/13/22 8:44 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/13/22 8:42 PM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 34 Join Date: 9/27/19 Recent Posts
Adi Vader
Regarding 'cycling'. I have always cycled from a dukkha nana. Never the A and P.
Somehow, after all the time we've spent talking about it, I"ve never heard you say this Adi. Very interesting stuff, we should talk about it sometime.
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I am generally suspicious of pitch perfect insight phenomenology descriptions.
As someone who had a very "textbook" experience up until at least 1st path, I tend to agree, although you can generally tell when someone is reporting an experience that happens to be textbook vs someone reciting the textbook back at you.
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 5/14/22 1:12 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/14/22 1:11 AM

RE: Out of practice for about 12 years. Do I still have stream entry?

Posts: 118 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
This A and P thingy is the least interesting thing.

We should talk about what constitutes an Insight - particularly nama-rupa - mistranslated as mind and body
We should also talk about the Dukkha nanas - what are they? what purpose do they serve? What is the difference between the experience of Dukkha as represented by the naming - fear, misery, disgust, desperation ... and the nana (knowledge) of what dukkha is.
​​​​​​​Hit me up.

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