No claim

Max S., modified 9 Years ago.

No claim

Posts: 33 Join Date: 11/4/11 Recent Posts
Hello all,

have been lurking for some time now here at Dharmaoverground and I'd like to share some thoughts.

Not claiming anything, it just seems the best place on this forum to post this stuff.

After the experience last week (or whenever it has occurred), there is no one here (at times, not continuously), no one to experience, to desire, want or to do anything. No central point. It is all just a drama, a really empty (empty of some meaning which mind was focused on, I guess) drama/an act.

The usual perception is now sometimes suspended in the midair, so to speak, and the Emptiness is experienced even during emotionally intense situations with beloved ones, for instance. These “black holes” in perception are increasingly manifesting themselves. Whence from, I don’t know. “I” am not intending them, as there is no me in those moments.

The usual practice of meditation (i.e. “me” intending to experience satori) has lost its structure as there is no process to get to satori anymore (at times). No “me” to get “there”. Invocations (magical path) still work, but in effect, it is only the dissolution of Gods or Omnipresence of Emptiness, that is really “real”.

There is peace now, not an emotional calmness, but something far deeper and more profound. There is more and more nothingness which may as well be called Fullness, Silent Emptiness which is filled to the brim.

Prior to the said experience that instigated this level (for the lack of a better word), my mind was in a great turmoil for months. And, “me” being identified with it, was in distress almost all waking hours. The core of “my” mind was losing its grip, “I” had nothing solid to cling to or depend on, all basic mental representations (about me, love, knowledge, loneliness, truth, god, dear ones, time, space, being etc…) were being dismantled on the fly. It was the darkest period so far. Oh well. LOL

Anyway, don’t know whether you guys and gals can make anything out of it, but it would make a difference to hear your thoughts (or probably not LOL).

Daniel M. Ingram, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: No claim

Posts: 3183 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
That all sounds good.

Not given a context or a background or set of practices or much else, it is always hard to speculate about things like models, stages, etc.

However, dark dismantling period followed by integration of that dissolution of core structures to something better and more peaceful fits with the going basic theory just fine and is commonly reported to follow that pattern.

The big trick is to figure out what keeps it from being continuous and thus go back through that basic dismantling-integrating pattern again, and perhaps again and again.

One way or the other, fun stuff.

Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: No claim

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Hi Seraphis,

I like your take on this, I'm also from a more pick n' mix magick-based background and some of the stuff you say makes my ears prick up. I'm interested in how this territory is mapped in magickal language and wonder if perhaps this post-4th[1] landscape is more in line with grades above the abyss, the abandoning of identity in particular strikes me as similar to descriptions of a Magister Templi.

Also, have you considered the idea that LIL may be similar to what is described as the PCE around here? Again, pure speculation and possibly misinformed as my experiments with Enochian were never hugely successful, mainly because I suck at visualization. emoticon

Anyhow, I can offer no diagnosis and I don't think that's what you're looking for anyway. It'll be interesting to hear your take on things as you go along, I can highly recommend insight practice and the practices inspired by AF discussed on here if you're interested in further exploration.

Welcome to the DhO.

[1] My speculation is that 4th path is more in line with Adeptus Minor → Major
Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: No claim

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
to my mind the 4th path is not synonymous to a Magister Templi grade.

I should really have clarified this before I said it, when people talk about 4th path on here we're usually talking about the model described by Daniel in his book and you may see it written as "MCTB 4th path", or "technical 4th path" so as to distinguish it from other models such as the fetter model. The subject is complex and I don't know enough the technicalities and Buddhist maps to provide anywhere near enough information, but basically what we're calling MCTB 4th path, which is the level of attainment I claim at present, and the descriptions given by many of us who have attained the same, seems to line up more closely with 2nd path of the 10 fetter model. When I mentioned "post-4th landscape" it was in reference to post-MCTB 4th, apologies for the lack of clarity.

My suggestion was that what we're calling MCTB 4th path/2nd path on the 10 fetter model, is more in line with the Adeptus grades than what another magician, Alan Chapman, suggests as he seemed to believe that this was actually Ipsissimus. I always considered this preposterous, particularly once it had been attained, so hearing your take on this, as someone who's been more involved in magick than myself, is interesting since we appear to be seeing this in a similar way.

In my experience LIL can be viewed as PCE, yes. Pure and Full of Emptiness, yes.

(based on experiences so far) Enochian Asthyrs system is a development system, a gradual initiation process that simply does not fail. No pretense, no shortcuts; either you are enlightened enough (for the lack of a more fluid word) or not - you just can not access certain levels by force or just intent (not even, say, the 28th Aethyr).
The price of admission is you level of attainment, nothing else. And they (angels) will help, they shall preserve and enhance what you have already attained and deliver what you lack through mere Aethyr presence and also via certain Initiations.

Interesting. I agree completely about this being a developmental system, however the last time I ever tried anything with Enochian was about eight years ago and I didn't have the insight, patience or abilities at that time to appreciate it. I do find it a very beautiful and precise system, and the calls are sublime to hear vibrated correctly.

I've actually been looking at it again from this perspective and trying to see it in mutually understandable terms, hence my point about LIL and the PCE, the latter of which "I" have had a lot of experience with in the last few weeks. I suspect that they describe the same territory but in very different terms, so I'd be interested in hearing if you notice any similarities between the various Buddhist attainments and those you've attained on your own path. (I'm guessing that you're at least 5=6 so you'll probably have quick access to all the jhanas and suchlike.)

If you're able to say, whereabouts are you in terms of the grades? I'll understand your silence if you've taken certain agreements.

Hopefully you'll find what you're looking for.
Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: No claim

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
All three Adeptus grades are only a dim introduction to real game which begins after one has crossed the Abyss. In this regard, Alan you mentioned has done a great work cutting off the bullshit and nonsense regarding grades, much like our Daniel here did with the dogmatic bullshit around Enlightenment.

I didn't mean to imply any disrespect for Alan, it was through the Baptists Head site that I found MCTB so I agree completely about the great work he's done.

I tend to agree with Alan only to a certain extent, however. It is one thing to walk Insight model path (which is what I am referring to when I say 4 paths) and it is something else to pragmatically employ the levels of consciousness one has attained (read: meddle with the subtle and spiritual forces). Hence the notion that the grades beyond Abyss can be viewed as equal to 3rd and 4th path of Daniels model PLUS all of the abilities that come along with these grades (which are granted at the initiation).

That's a good point about the abilities, the emphasis has been on straight up insight practice for me until recently and the powers didn't hold much interest. Interesting stuff.

It is just that Insight paths are more direct and magickal paths are more complicated (with the ceremonial bullshit and all the pomp and glory of daggers, cups and wands and rings).

Do you see the insight path as having more relation to the Path of the Arrow? The spiritual dryness of Dark Night territory always made me think of crossing the desert on a camel...

Once you attain the stages of willingly or spontaneously perceiving the Truth, that's it, in my opinion. All else (commanding the demons, manifesting rain or money, changes of perception in others, healing, control over the elements etc...) is only a nonessential added value of sorts and any true arhant will tell us that all else, apart from the Truth, are plastic roses along the way (my magickal path friends would burn this body here at the stake for saying this LOL).
I tend to agree with the plastic fantastic notion, but my previous activities are producing the results along the magickal path, so here I am.

Nice description! At least you've got the insight to see the roses for what they are, you'll enjoy what's going on here I'm sure.

With your attainment, you could go straight to the highest Aethyrs, in my opinion. They (angels) would probably just transfer you straight to the more spiritual level.
Try it, for fun.

I'm going to, I was reading up on the calls and pronunciations again last night for the first time in ages so I'll let you know how it goes.

"I" have passed the Abyss, that's "my" whereabouts. And so have you, with your attainment, unaware in my opinion (as have everyone else here on at least the 3rd technical path, IMHO). How preposterous is that?

I know, it seems absurd to say it with so much bullshit by Crowley fanboys and armchair occultists having been written! I can't say that "my" current experience of the world lines up with anything beyond Magister Templi, although there's a lot of the magickal side of things that I don't really know that much about, but having crossed the Abyss is something I'm certain of.

Well, the PCE you are referring to here (if I understand you correctly) can be gradually attained via Aathyrs, in my opinion. But going only once to LIL and hoping that will do, emhm, it is quite unrealistic. It is a process, not a one stop thing. One has to absorb all of the presence in the Aethyr, learn all lessons and open up to all initiations. Thats just the start.

I didn't mean to imply that one visit to LIL would make that strata of awareness ones baseline, I see parallels between LIL and the PCE, pure consciousness experience. It's interesting to consider the possibility that it's the same quanta of awareness being discussed. The PCE becomes the baseline of awareness when one becomes "AF", which I see as being similar to 3rd path on the 10 fetter model, but I don't know how that would fit, if at all, with the Enochian maps. If I understand it correctly, one fully attained in the system has full access to all Aethyrs and heirarchies rather than having, for example, LIL as the baseline?

What about the jhanas, what would you like to know, pls?

I haven't given it a lot of thought to be honest, but now I think about it...I suspect that the 4 formed jhanas could be mapped to the four worlds of the kabbalistic tree, what's your thinking about something like that? If that were the case, I wonder how the Qlippothic flip-side would work in jhanic terms?! Ha!

Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: No claim

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
when I say that the 4th path of Daniel's and Ipsissimus (or the 3rd path and Magus grade) are equaled, I only mean that these grades are equaled in what they represent in their respective developmental systems.
So, when you reach the 4th tech path, realize its goal, you are maxed out in this particular development system and when you hit the Ipsissimus grade, take the initiation, realize all that has to be realized, you completed The Great Work, you are maxed out.

That makes more sense actually, and the 4th path realization, with the dropping away of the insight problem entirely, definitely leaves room for more development. This may also offer a clearer view on why people like Daniel, who's meditative career has been vastly more intensive and deep than the experience of many of us who claim the same attainments, experience a far deeper level of insight and a more pronounced experience of emptiness.

Are these two states of consciousness and attainments with all what they represent and come along with, really equal in all regards?
I think not.

There are certain similarities between the two systems, granted.

That been said, in my opinion, we can not really mix and mach attainments of these two rather diverse development systems. How on earth could we? The practices of the Insight path and that of magick are quite dissimilar. All that we can do (and hopefully can) is to see similarities, maybe conceptual linking and try to combine the experiences only to come out more enlightened and ready to go on.

True, and I think you've pointed to something really interesting here too. In MCTB, Daniel says:
Integrating these two perspectives into one causal field without artificial dualities or boundaries is quite a project, one with the potential to lead to very high levels of realization or to madness. It is the high-stakes way to play the game, but unfortunately seems to be largely unavoidable past a certain point.

This seems to be true in my experience, more so recently and, synchronistically, you appeared on here. Ha! I disagree that the changes which happen upon "AF" put an end to the powers but I won't know for certain until that is realized, but to be honest the experience of the PCE, particularly the full-blown, stable ones, changes something in ones relationship towards these abilities. That said, I've probably been more magickally active in recent weeks, in terms of doing minor empty-hand stuff, than at any time since I started on the insight path so I stand to be corrected at any time.

Have you studied the Liber B vel Magi?
You might be surprised.

I had read it before but hadn't really studied it in detail, I've always been interested in how Uncle Al mapped the attainment of nirodha samapatti with the entry into Kether. NS itself is something which has been discussed on here recently, there's uncertainty as to whether of not it's a sort of super-fruition or whether it's actually saññā-vedayita-nirodha as the NS most commonly mentioned here is like a very particular entry and exit into cessation. If it's saññā-vedayita-nirodha, then one remains fully aware and reality is experienced clearly and purely, a'la PCE[1], without any "me" involved at all, by which I mean affective feelings which remain after 4th path is attained. I'll get a proper read at that link tonight and see what comes of it.

Well, A.'.A.'. grades are based on the tree of life (as are the Golden Dawn and RC grades), so in this regard rupa jhanas may be viewed as similar to some of the sephirot below the Abyss and arupa ones way beyond the Abyss or even above Kether, in my opinion.

Interesting. You may be interested to know that there are another five jhanas above the 8th arupa jhana which are, on here at least, referred to as the Pure Land Jhanas. They're only accessible at 3rd path, although I know a few people who've said they had access to them at late-2nd path. Definitely given me some stuff to think about with this above/below the Abyss thing as that makes perfect sense, I'll need to practice rising on the planes again to compare the result.

You cant make it past your level of attainment/initiation (initiation in this context doesn't mean formal initiation in a brick temple), no way. Vision gets distorted, you just cant get in, no matter what. Master Therion at first visited only first two and felt he wasn't ready to go on and later on had difficulties accessing some of the higher Aethyrs (not that it matters, enochiana is sublimely subjective, IMHO).

I see, I didn't quite know how that worked having had nowhere near the level of initiation required when I dabbled at the time. Your point about Master Therion is really, really, fucking interested! I'm a big fan of his work, without a doubt my favourite writer on magick, but that fact, particularly when taken alongside the claims of Neuberg about the reality of the whole ZAX incident, seems to suggest that his level of initiation wasn't quite what he proclaimed. As you say though, it doesn't really matter.

How the Qlippothic flip-side would work in jhanic terms? Food for thought, I agree.

My speculative take is that this may align more closely with the States of Deprivation in Buddhist terms. I'm not a fan of Grant's take although have never given it any serious investigation, he's batshit mental but an entertaining read.

Anyhow, it's great to chat about this stuff with you and it'll be cool to see how your investigations go.

[1] Nick on here did an excellent article about the Fruition attainment which is worth a read if you're interested.!/2011/07/yogi-toolbox-lengthening-fruition.htm
James Yen, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: No claim

Posts: 270 Join Date: 9/6/09 Recent Posts
This thread is awesome.

I just wanted to clarify that Nirodha Samapatti does not actually have the pre-requisite of being an Anagami. This notion is actually entirely commentarial and probably found in the Visuddhimagga.

As far as I can tell (having no personal experience), NS is basically unconsciousness sans death of the body:

"In the case of a monk who has died & passed away, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is totally ended, his heat is dissipated, and his faculties are shut down. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
josh r s, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: No claim

Posts: 337 Join Date: 9/16/11 Recent Posts
the suttas say that emerging from NS one becomes either an anagami or an arahant, so technically its not a requisite for entering but one for coming out

trying to find relevant sutta, pretty sure its in there but i could be mistaken