Idk -- asking for second opinion

ealnm mehl, modified 12 Months ago at 3/31/23 8:04 PM
Created 12 Months ago at 3/31/23 8:04 PM

Idk -- asking for second opinion

Posts: 35 Join Date: 3/31/23 Recent Posts
I'm very used to working things out on my own, and I've been wary of trying to situate myself on any map -- I find that stuff fascinating, but 'not for me' in some sense; it's too easy for me to fixate on metrics. But now I am very interested where I actually might be situated, in the eyes of some people. Sometimes I think I'm just right after A&P, sometimes I think I might be in the renormalization phase of things and I guess having some vague idea would help with things.

I guess the coolest recent event that I've had happen was on New Year's. I don't want to call this "realization" but there was basically this experience of not being? In some sense? Briefly (and I apologize for so much jargon): in the months before, in my job and at school, I was working a lot with what you could call networks of autonomous agents, like eg computer networks, basically sending each other data and reacting to each other. I usually think of these networks as directed graphs whose nodes are Turing machines. If you analyze real world examples, like circuit boards or telephone communications, or if you think about the definition of a Turing machine, you'll find that its communication with the outside world is ultimately one-dimensional: it just accepts a stream of bits, one after another. This is because it can only differentiate between one signal and another by the time in which it has received it (given two signals, they're identical iff they were received at the same time.). I then thought about my own communication with the world, and realized it doesn't actually look like that. The money quote is I guess that "there is no natural order on the sensations". I actually saw my mind sort of trying to impose this kind of order, but nope: would sound come before sight? How would you arrange pixels? Sort of spirally, coming from the focal point of vision, or what? It was just completely absurd. I guess I had some sort of decentering experience. It didn't felt *that* weird but when I try to describe it now I'm just at a loss.

But then I read (in MCTemoticon that you are actually sometimes supposed to experience this kind of ordering, and I kind of realize that sometimes it does in fact make sense, that if we're under this ego illusion or whatever, then by the virtue of being an atomic logical entity it would have to experience the world sequentially, and you can kind of see this if you think about it in the right way. I can actually see the frame rate for some senses (I think I'm getting there with vision), but -- as always -- I'm not sure.

Recently I have been getting more into visual meditation, the kind of thing that I think 'Kasina meditation' is about. I always had very strong afterimages, but recently it's on a whole new level. Yesterday, I was just sitting in the dark, sort of really intensely focusing on my leg, and specifically the curve that its outline made against the background. I was focusing so hard on it that it started to glow in this really nice turquoise color, and I could see my mind desperately trying to fit some kind of nice, smooth shape to this curve (I think this is because I was studying statistics that day emoticon), sort of like the things you might see in computer vision. The glow was following my leg as I would move it, in this sort of very physically accurate way, a bit like some sort of gooey film layer over it. I really liked that because it felt like this was a representation of some sort of real process in my visual system, and not just a lie that I wished to see. I then kind of realized that what is happening no longer really depends on me, that (or so I think?) I am just sort of letting my visual system find itself without me trying to impose anything, and that this is what I should do if I want to actually see something interesting. I then had an even weirder experience -- basically some sort of eyes looking at me, like I was disturbing it, and it was okay with that, but it came out to signal that things are going to be different now. I had a hard time falling asleep, because my vision was just so hyperactive; when I looked at a door and then rapidly looked elsewhere, I could still see that door in the same region of my eye, for a fairly long moment. I know why this kind of delay is occuring, but never saw it with this much clarity and for so long.

I'm into this visual meditation (if you can call it that), because doing it really engages me and it's something I can really do every day with full engagement. I often spend more than I planned on it, because it's just so interesting. The best way I can describe the visual effects that I get is that they sort of look like Andy Warhol's silkscreens, especially the 'Flowers' series:



(People pigeonhole Warhol as mostly a cultural critic, but in his life he was actually very spiritual -- my meditation experiences made me think that when he was painting eg Marilyn Monroe, it was less about "showing her becoming a product", and more about "showing her becoming an image", with all that this sentence entails)

Sorry for writing such a long post; I'm glad if someone makes it through to the end emoticon Have a good day!
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supermonkey :), modified 12 Months ago at 4/1/23 2:16 AM
Created 12 Months ago at 4/1/23 2:16 AM

RE: Idk -- asking for second opinion

Posts: 140 Join Date: 8/11/20 Recent Posts
I'll try to make a guess, based on what you write and the flavor I get from it:

You describe that you experience your mind as non-sequential, which basically sounds like a first opening experience. 
You are using effort, develop good concentration and find practice engaging. 
You meditate on relatively coarse visual after images and have some visions. 

IMO that puts you into first Jhana territory (maybe Mind and Body and Cause and Effect), probably developing into 2nd jhana territory. 

Other opinions may vary. 
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Dream Walker, modified 12 Months ago at 4/3/23 4:49 AM
Created 12 Months ago at 4/3/23 4:49 AM

RE: Idk -- asking for second opinion

Posts: 1657 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Maciej Mehl
Sometimes I think I'm just right after A&P
Which would be what exactly, and why?

 I guess I had some sort of decentering experience. It didn't felt *that* weird but when I try to describe it now I'm just at a loss.
Without descriptions, hard to tell

But then I read (in MCTB ) that you are actually sometimes supposed to experience this kind of ordering
yep, in A&P depending on descriptions that are phenomenological. Did you actually read the whole book?

Recently I have been getting more into visual meditation, the kind of thing that I think 'Kasina meditation' is about.
I'm into this visual meditation (if you can call it that)
Dunno what you "think" about kasina since you offer no descriptions.

Sorry for writing such a long post
Lot of words with very little descriptions
What is your meditative background? What were your meditative experiences the days leading up to your "event"

Good Luck,
~D
T DC, modified 12 Months ago at 4/3/23 6:53 PM
Created 12 Months ago at 4/3/23 6:53 PM

RE: Idk -- asking for second opinion

Posts: 516 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Great post, thanks for the extensive descriptions!  The first experience you mentioned sounds like a kind of meditative insight / perceptual loosening.  These are great to help expand our perspective on the path and give us glimpses of potential future avenues of development.

How has that experience, and the other kasina related experiences affected your practice and baseline mental state?  What are you hoping to achieve going forward? 

To me it sounds your self diagnosis of post A/P could be accurate.  IMO anyone who has stuck with meditation for any significant length of time and had some interesting experiences is probably post A/P.
ealnm mehl, modified 12 Months ago at 4/4/23 6:25 AM
Created 12 Months ago at 4/4/23 6:22 AM

RE: Idk -- asking for second opinion

Posts: 35 Join Date: 3/31/23 Recent Posts
@supermonkey

That's actually probably it! The more I think about it, the more right it sounds. Thanks

@dreamwalker

I didn't, and neither did I claim that I did :/ Should I wait to post until I've read the whole book?

@tdc

I guess it made it possible at all, really. Before, I would feel very inadequate on the cushion, like I was very frustrated at being distracted and judgmental about the shape my mind is in, but afterwards accessing a state of sustained focus was much easier, and I also started dealing much better with intense interpersonal relations at work and in personal life, which was probably the biggest obstacle to sustained practice in my case.

I also think the stuff about Turing machines and order relations holds really well even in everyday context; it helped me not a small number of times to understand how a particular thing works, and I have a feeling that it's fundamental to the way the world works. I would like to work in artificial intelligence, and this very precise study of how my own perception works helps me in developing the intuitions how perception in general might work. It made me much more independent as a person. I'm also a big fan of not lying to oneself, and I see Buddhism as basically a way to find out what's true and what's just my own superimposition. It made me more independent (as in "able to stand on my own feet") and more certain of myself in various areas.

I'm mostly into Zen, although Zen is not into me; I usually lack the concentration to do the kind of amorphous training they recommend. I like its abstract nature, but in my own practice (or "practice" lol) I found I do best with something concrete (hence kasina). But I would really like to someday understand Bankei Yotaku's words: "At the place of the Unborn, there's no distinction between being born and not being born". I believe that's actually possible.