Dead zone

Jamys Maayl Oe Mearey, modified 10 Months ago at 5/22/23 8:32 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 5/22/23 8:32 AM

Dead zone

Posts: 14 Join Date: 7/14/22 Recent Posts
Hi, 

I'm a novice meditator. I recently tried a 10 day solo retreat using a simple method of attending to the breath at the navel and noting / noticing everything that drew my attention from it. 

In fact I probably only spent about 2% of my time attending to the breath as my attention was almost immediately drawn from it at the beginning of every sitting, usually by an emotional object, sometimes irritation but more often joy or happiness; the remainder of sessions were then typically spent bouncing between emotions, with the usual physical sensations thrown in. The emotions, particularly the positive ones, were very intense. 

Then on the 8th day of the retreat a large part of the space where these emotions occur (my chest down to the pit of my belly) seemed to 'turn off' and feelings such as joy ceased. I called this area 'the dead zone', it was like a vacuum inside of me - a slightly unpleasant feeling, but not horrific.

I thought it might be like when an electronic device gets too hot and turns itself off -I had been experiencing very intense emotions for 8 days so the space where these occurred just shut down.

Anyway, a week after the retreat this 'dead zone' remains. I am still experiencing emotions, but faintly and not in my chest or belly. 

I was just wondering if this is a common phenomenon and if anyone has any tips on how to restore life to this zone.

Many thanks,

Jamys
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Ni Nurta, modified 10 Months ago at 5/22/23 9:38 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 5/22/23 9:38 AM

RE: Dead zone

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Not sure about emotions in my belly. I do not even experience them in my head. Emotions just seem to be.
Maybe brain realized emotions it places in place on your body are not related to this place in body?

That said I am not familiar with emotions being experienced in body...
There was some kind of constant experience of body but and emotions would cause tension but I never identified tension as emotions and only as result of emotions with emotions being reinforced by tension but mostly mind seeing emotions arising as some kind of way to help release tension.

These days (since many years) I do not experience my body other than change in touch which fades instantly or when I specifically focus on part of body which even then feels like it fades more than it is experienced. I also find doing opposite, making even little I feel body be even more ephemeral and not-experienced better. I am very sensual person emoticon

I mention this because generally direction of changes was to experience less of these things so maybe not experiencing belly like you did before is not bad thing?

That said if you call it anything "dead" it sounds more like some kind of experience of numbness.
The no-experience I described to really work requires rather robust energetical system (don't mind use of esoteric term - its to simplify communication) and in fact as mind can instantly get state of experience in given part of body it has less need to accumulate it over time hence in the past I had to have experience of most of my body at all times while now I do not.

Anyways, general advice in anything body-sensations related is practice of putting your awareness on given body part and just keeping it there. You can move attention around to force some activity changing. This develops connections and helps brain figure out what parts of body cause triggers where in the brain and maybe even detect broken/weak connections and send some repair cells to fix these issues.

Typically with this practice there isn't much for some time and when nervous system figures itself out given place becomes pleasant and very responsive. Also less experienced in 'normal' way where its always in your consciousness. During this practice you can experience things like pressure or even pain if there are some issues to resolve. Nothing more than just keeping attention there is needed. This doesn't even need to be done for many hours, it is enough to do it for some time feels appropriate and after number of days you will see improvement.
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Aeon , modified 10 Months ago at 5/22/23 1:59 PM
Created 10 Months ago at 5/22/23 1:59 PM

RE: Dead zone

Posts: 212 Join Date: 1/31/23 Recent Posts
What you describe sounds like an energy blockage.

To release it: Plant your conscious attention firmly in that area and sustain it there. Breathe all the way in, and all the way out, while intending for the block to release.

Might trigger catharsis and destabilize you. Proceed at own risk. Professional assistance would be the smartest move, if you can afford something like somatic experiencing, dearmouring, EMDR, IFS or PSIP type therapy. CBT and talk therapy wont work for this.
Eudoxos , modified 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 5:21 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 5:21 AM

RE: Dead zone

Posts: 136 Join Date: 4/6/14 Recent Posts
Could you describe more the evolution during those 8 days? How exactly do you move your attention — are you disengaging from a perception (e.g. emotion) after noting it, coming back to the breath, or staying in open monitoring?

Without knowing more, my guess is bhanga-ñana (insight into dissolution, coming after intensely pleasant A&P), where disappearance of parts of the body is common:
"Some meditators feel that the rising and falling of the abdomen ceases for only a short time, while others feel that the movement stops for 2-4 days until they get bored. Walking is the best remedy for this." (source; written for all-day Mahasi-style practice)
Jamys Maayl Oe Mearey, modified 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 7:49 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 7:49 AM

RE: Dead zone

Posts: 14 Join Date: 7/14/22 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta,

Thanks for your reply. That's interesting, I'm only a novice meditator but emotions do usually seem to be localised to me. For instance, when I smile there is a 'happiness' that occurs in my face that seems quite distinct for the happiness that occurs in my chest. In fact, when I'm noting, I label these 2 experiences differently.

Yes, it's a slightly unpleasant experience, so if it is good, it's not the pleasant kind of good. Thanks, I shall try the technique you mention  emoticon

Aeon,
Thanks, I know nothing about internal energies, however 'blockage' does a good job of describing how it feels. I'm travelling atm, but with try the method you mention when I'm back in the secure environment of my own home.

Eudoxos,
I would attend to the breath at the navel, attention would almost immediately be drawn away by an emotion (oftentimes irritation as I don't seem to like focusing attention on a specific object at the moment), then irritation would be replaced by joy, happiness, or amusement. There would then follow a succession of noteworthy objects (mostly positive emotions, though also negative ones, with the usual bodily things such as pain and itchiness thrown in) that would last till the end of the sit, so that there was never really the occasion to return to the breath. So it had the feel of open monitoring.

In terms of the evolution through the 8 days: the first 2 days were generally blissful and my mind wandered only a little, days 3-5, I was starting to feel frazzled, my attention wandered more, but was generally quite blissful still; day 6 I had a funny turn, felt ill and vague and detached, I was emotionally down; day 7 I was incredibly joyous, and the frazzle seemed to pass; day 8 the frazzle came back and the vacuum appeared; day 9 and 10 it was very hard to keep my mind fron wandering,  no longer felt joy, happiness, and even irritation was very faint. 

Yh I'm not sure about the A&P, possibly, but apart from the extreme joy there was nothing particularly remarkable about the experience.  
Olivier S, modified 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 8:39 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 8:36 AM

RE: Dead zone

Posts: 872 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Hi Jamys,

Given the arc of development you describe going through during your retreat, I would also recommend reading chapter 30 of Daniel Ingram's book to see if it resonates, as it contains detailed descriptions about the stages eudoxos mentioned, which are often considered a standard progression of deepening "meditative" experience, or perhaps more accurately, deepening "emergence", as not everyone reaches this sort of territory through formal meditation practice. Difficulty perceiving certain things is pretty common in certain phases of this development (including the body seeming "hollow"), as are disturbing emotions, distractedness, etc. The relationship between this and "energy" or anything physiological is actually not that clear. Not saying this is necessarily the only thing going on, but it seems pretty likely to me that there is some connection with this whole development thing.

Cheers,

​​​​​​​Olivier
Olivier S, modified 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 9:35 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 9:35 AM

RE: Dead zone

Posts: 872 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
ps : Also, this is apparently a good book - https://www.abebooks.fr/9781418438852/Internal-Moving-Healing-Manual-Instruction-1418438855/plp
Eudoxos , modified 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 9:48 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 9:48 AM

RE: Dead zone

Posts: 136 Join Date: 4/6/14 Recent Posts
In terms of the evolution through the 8 days: the first 2 days were generally blissful and my mind wandered only a little, days 3-5, I was starting to feel frazzled, my attention wandered more, but was generally quite blissful still; day 6 I had a funny turn, felt ill and vague and detached, I was emotionally down; day 7 I was incredibly joyous, and the frazzle seemed to pass; day 8 the frazzle came back and the vacuum appeared; day 9 and 10 it was very hard to keep my mind fron wandering,  no longer felt joy, happiness, and even irritation was very faint. 

Yh I'm not sure about the A&P, possibly, but apart from the extreme joy there was nothing particularly remarkable about the experience.  
Excellent, clear, description like from a book; thank you! It rhymes like this for me: Days 1-2 ñ1, day 3-5 ñ2, day 6 ñ3 (3c, unpleasant, frustrating), day 7 ñ4 (A&P), day 8+ ñ5 (bangha). Bangha often brings unclarity of senses (including mind) and wandering mind, dreamy quality, disorientation — as phenomena stop making sense. You may want to read relevant passages from Kenneth's Contemplative Fitness (it is more concise than Daniel's which Olivier referenced); that said, don't let maps derail you from your terrain, the practice. It can give you confidence to continue. (I always had preference for working with someone guiding me; the self-mapping was interfering for me.)
Jamys Maayl Oe Mearey, modified 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 10:54 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 5/23/23 10:54 AM

RE: Dead zone

Posts: 14 Join Date: 7/14/22 Recent Posts
Yes, having now read -or reread in the case of MCTB - those passages I see that my retreat did broadly follow ñ1-ñ5. Thanks
--
The more I practice and read about these matters, the more I'm starting to think it likely that I first passed the AP as a teenager and have been cycling ever since.
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Ni Nurta, modified 10 Months ago at 5/24/23 1:57 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 5/24/23 1:57 AM

RE: Dead zone

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Jamys Maayl Oe Mearey
Yh I'm not sure about the A&P, possibly, but apart from the extreme joy there was nothing particularly remarkable about the experience.  
LOL, that's it!
If you have A&P about central focus (there all action happens) then it goes offline figuratively speaking and if you have it on your belly then its the same process and you are experiencing the same effects as DN.
If you are or are not in DN doesn't matter - processes matter.

I recently written some explanation about these effects here https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/25328403#_com_liferay_message_boards_web_portlet_MBPortlet_message_25331010

I didn't connect these facts right away because A&P is usually strongly linked to central focus and it is usually an issue. It doesn't need to be though.

In this new light recommendation is still the same but with note that you should avoid refering to this "extreme joy" in any way or form for the time being. During DN keeping awareness on numb consciousness is okay as long as you are just experiencing it as it is and not try to get A&P effects. Normal experience without bells and whistles. Also important: experience but not of exactly the same belly with the same mind. These things need to shift in to maintenance and they won't be able to if you keep checking if they are okay every moment. You ideally need to use different parts of mind, let yourself experience yourself differently. If you can do that DN doesn't even need to be unpleasant - it will however always feel like something somewhere is recovering. Do not bother recovering parts of mind, do not check if they are fine - when they are fine you will know it right away ;)
Olivier S, modified 10 Months ago at 5/24/23 8:41 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 5/24/23 8:40 AM

RE: Dead zone

Posts: 872 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
That's what happened to me. Might be why you seem relatively unphased by all this - a lot of people freak out the first times through, and then can have some pretty tough times for months or years afterwards related to the whole development thing. What's going on there exactly, nobody fully knows. Something to do with deconstruction of "naive" sense of self and world perhaps, but then there are physiological, attentional, powersy, and other aspects to it sometimes that just aren't easy to explain away...

People's experiences are always surprisingly varied and personal, so although awareness of broad patterns and general advice can be helpful, it is also always up to each one of us to figure out what works for them or not - there is no universal practice advice that fits everyone, and practices or views that were helpful for one person may not be so for another; thus, I think it is good to remember that despite the fact that most practitioners who have gone through a lot often exhibit a sincere intention to share what worked for themselves out of kindness, what happened on one's own path may, disapointingly, not apply to others'. 

Curiosity, intelligence, diligence, playfulness, willingness to experiment and educate oneself, while responding sensitively to one's actual lived experienced, are good qualities to develop, I believe.

Best wishes !

Olivier