Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Sarah Li 6/10/23 6:55 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Dream Walker 6/10/23 8:50 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Aeon . 6/10/23 8:55 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Dream Walker 6/10/23 9:08 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Aeon . 6/10/23 10:25 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Dream Walker 6/10/23 10:43 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Aeon . 6/10/23 10:26 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Aeon . 6/10/23 11:32 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Dream Walker 6/10/23 12:42 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Olivier S 6/10/23 1:03 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Ni Nurta 6/10/23 7:02 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Sarah Li 6/10/23 8:46 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Ni Nurta 6/12/23 1:58 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana shargrol 6/10/23 12:18 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Adi Vader 6/10/23 12:47 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Adi Vader 6/10/23 1:03 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Aeon . 6/10/23 1:17 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Dream Walker 6/10/23 2:49 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana ealnm mehl 7/10/23 6:55 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana ealnm mehl 7/10/23 7:00 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/11/23 10:07 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Dream Walker 6/10/23 1:47 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana shargrol 6/10/23 1:52 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana shargrol 6/11/23 7:23 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/17/23 2:41 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/17/23 3:32 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana ealnm mehl 7/11/23 10:44 AM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/11/23 6:20 PM
RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana ealnm mehl 7/11/23 6:47 PM
Sarah Li, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 6:55 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 6:55 AM

Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 4 Join Date: 5/31/23 Recent Posts
I know this will be controversial, especially because there are many definitions of jhanas and conceptions what you can or can't do in them. This is why I call this by the general term "concentration states". However, I do think that these are the logical extension beyond the 8th. I'm also talking about soft to medium jhanas - that is, I still allow my self enough space for thought so I can navigate the territory.

Since a perceptual shift a few weeks ago I suddenly could do the 8 jhanas easily, while before I had a hard time getting into j2. I also noticed that I could take almost any pleasant emotion and turn it into an absorbed state, some more stable than others. I noticed how the jhanas get finer the higher (or deeper) I go and that I dropped a layer of perception with each of them. By this I noticed that the j8 is still quite fabricated, consequentially there should be more layers and therefor states between j8 and cessation. I then set out to find those.

Now before I describe what I found in detail, I would like that you try it out on your own, only using the following instruction, ignoring the description. It would be interesting to see if others find the same stable states, others or non at all - independent of me scripting your experience.
Instruction: Enter the 8. jhana and get accustomed to it. Notice how each jhana is more refined and allows you to pay attention to finer frequencies. While before you have been guided by enjoyment, beyond it isn't that helpful any more. Curiosity is a better motivation. So tune in to finer frequencies and let go of whatever needs to be let go. Be open and curious of what you will find. Remind yourself that you are going into the direction of the least fabricated state. Therefor what you will find will have less content than anything before.

Now for the voids. I'm not sure yet how many there are really, where to draw the boundaries and if there are not also states in between. But the following seem to be stable enough to get a name.

just being
From the jhana of neither perception no non-perception, notice how your perception still tries to grab onto something, it just doesn't land. Like raising the finger to point, but then there is nothing to point at. Tune into to a higher frequency and let go of the need to perceive.
The state you will find yourself in is more pleasant because you let go of that tension. It is smooth, soft, bouba. Like the surface of a ballon being inflated it removes folds and imperfections. It also has a slight outward pull to it. It feels very much like just being there, hence the name.

not being
Notice the feeling of "just being" and then let go of it.
This state is quite neutral and tasteless and the pleasantness is gone. It's like the inside of the afore mentioned balloon. From here one can notice the background noise of the mind. The place where subconscious thoughts arise - but without being picked up these small waves of intention subside before they can form any coherent image or thought. Like the vacuum fluctuations of the mind.

stillness
I would prefer to call this "emptiness" or just "empty" but that would lead to confusion.
Notice how the fluctuations of mind are distracting and then let go of them.
The state you will find yourself in is very empty of anything, but with that comes freedom and peace. It's very restful. Like the inside of the balloon, but without air.

end of time
From here on it's all way more vague. I can't access this state consistently and don't know how much it actually qualifies as a state. It's more like dropping in and out of it. But this is also where things get weird.
In the previous state, for all its emptiness, it still had time. Therefor, let go of the need for continuous time.
Here time breaks down, it doesn't stop completely, but stops making sense. There are time loops, moments of unknown length, gaps and confusion. Here I have the problem that I can't tell if my breath still continues and so I would check myself and thereby be ejected out of this state.
From this state I at least once was able to access several cessations in a row. I let my self fall deeper, have a gap, find my self at one of the previous voids and drop down again and have the next cessation. All probably in the span of a breathing cycle.
One strange thing that happened is, that instead of dropping into a cessation, I would find myself in a state of pure vibration where my whole being was one low frequency vibration (1-5 Hz maybe?) and my muscles would start to move in that frequency. This happened about two or three times.

That's as far as I can tell for now. It might be that for some people these are aspects of the 8 jhana, just levels of depth. I read one comment here that indicated something in that direction.
I intentionally haven't put any number on them, because I'm not yet sure about how clearly defined these states are and if there are other in-betweens. But if one would see these as extensions of the already known jhanas then those would be numbers 9-12.

If there are any reports of something that sounds like this, any literature on strange concentration states, I would be grateful for references to those.
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Dream Walker, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 8:50 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 8:50 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 1657 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Sarah Li

Hi there, interesting 1st post
I know this will be controversial...

It is controversial, but not how you think...
Since a perceptual shift a few weeks ago I suddenly could do the 8 jhanas easily

What shift would that be?
Instruction: Enter the 8. jhana and get accustomed to it.

Ummmm, yeah. You lost me there, apparently you are talking about something other than 8th jhana....This tells me that you have never been to 8th jhana but are experiencing something of your own experience with no credability of how you are labeling your experience.
That's as far as I can tell for now. It might be that for some people these are aspects of the 8 jhana, just levels of depth. But if one would see these as extensions of the already known jhanas then those would be numbers 9-12.

Or they may just all be your own private experiences that do not translate. Without knowing your "shift" and where you may be defining yourself at, it is quite difficult to hypothesize what you are experiencing especially without knowing what you are doing to get into jhana.
If you are having fun then great. Enjoy your stuff.
~D
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Aeon , modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 8:55 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 8:55 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 212 Join Date: 1/31/23 Recent Posts
This video series from Kenneth Folk comes to mind, tho I don't know if they correlate to what you have experienced:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRdiOoTZC3A&list=PLJUl8JyDRJlIrff45WdlX5LUbfm0ld_vz

Ignore SnarkWalker. He is always like this. Think I have seen one post from him that is not prickly. Considering a 1526 post count, you have to admire the  dedication.
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Dream Walker, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 9:08 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 9:08 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 1657 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Aeon ........
This video series from Kenneth Folk comes to mind, tho I don't know if they correlate to what you have experienced:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRdiOoTZC3A&list=PLJUl8JyDRJlIrff45WdlX5LUbfm0ld_vz

Ignore SnarkWalker. He is always like this. Think I have seen one post from him that is not prickly. Considering a 1526 post count, you have to admire the  dedication.
True that Aeon, I am dedicated, Mostly of whacking on sockpuppets that seem to be quite pervasive these days. Sometimes snark is all it takes but other times you just stop feeding them. I am very suspicious of first posts from people that claim some kind of unexplained awakening, no descriptions of any past history, lots of BS concerning hypothetical unexplained "stuff". Asking others to confirm their new found "stuff", derailing anyone who has a real practice to play with hypothetical.
But hey, if thats up your alley, dive right in.    ;)
~D
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Aeon , modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 10:25 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 10:25 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 212 Join Date: 1/31/23 Recent Posts
And yet you were nice to the sociologist who literally said he imagined his way to enlightenment, and attained 4th path by realizing genitals were not related to gender identity (except in 99.99% of people they actually are, but hey).

This is why I give you shit SnarkWalker. Letting people like these off easy will be the downfall of this forum.
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Aeon , modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 10:26 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 10:26 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 212 Join Date: 1/31/23 Recent Posts
On another note, subjhanas as described in MCTB2 might further clarify what you experience @sarah-li
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Dream Walker, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 10:43 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 10:43 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

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If you would be so kind as to not engage in name calling I would appreciate it.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/home

Thank you Aeon,
~D
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Aeon , modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 11:32 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 11:32 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 212 Join Date: 1/31/23 Recent Posts
If you would save the snark for the people who are actually preaching or delusional, and instead use your stellar intellect to provide socratic questions and resources that are actually helpful to brand new members who post in good faith, I would appreciate that too.

Quid pro quo?
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 7:02 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 11:59 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Hello Sarah,

Your observation about 8th jhana are correct - there is something beyond all that. All mind states called formless jhanas and described as infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness and neither perception nor not-perception are in fact still formed jhanas. True formless jhanas have no form and only what I call 'utility' or in other words they are related to innate functions of nervous system and each jhana has its own function. Experiencing formless jhanas is possible in mind which doesn't reference form.

These true formless jhanas are not beyond 8th but are distilled forms of experiences from jhanas 5th to 8th and this can be confirmed by adding form eg. the subtle form of 4th jhana to qualities of formless jhanas - in which case experiences called like names of the formless jhanas arise. In this case difference is that there is constant cessation - literally fruition every moment - so in that case experience is different than when experiencing these still formed formless jhanas when they are all which can be done - when mind still clings to form. Also other forms of these jhanas exist and adding grosser forms from earlier jhanas reveal experiences which should be at this point very familiar - earliest experiences of these formed-formless jhanas. Not yet as infinite space in how eg. 5th jhana with 4th jhana form feel but very characteristic still.

Territory where these not yet formless 8th jhana can be experienced is territory of visualized mind states. Mind dropped gross forms of from so there isn't as much clinging to these grosser forms and this makes it possible for mind to experience all sorts of subtler forms. I always called them pure abodes and in fact at this stage experiencing the so called Pure Abodes is very easy. I didn't check all of them but from fun one are Tushita and Sukhavati. In the latter one the trick is visualizing Amitabha in the center as pure cessation (and letting Amitabha himself to be there - more accurate non-pragmatic version).

Also a bit of enlightenment advice - dharma you find is mostly male so you won't find much advice on real dharma, just brutes forcing changes through ascetic practices. Not quite what supremely enlightened Buddha meant with his messages. Contemplate different meanings of the "middle way" which come to mind. There are different middle ways...
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 12:18 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 12:18 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 2343 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I actually appreciate Dreamwalkers direct engagement on these posts. He's direct. I also share his concern about people without any history posting without any phenominological/developmental detail about their ideas.

One of the things I (mostly used to) love about DhO is the practical, grounded discussion of actual practice. We've kinda lost it here. DW's posts are like a reminder of the glorious past when people didn't just drop in and post and disappear, but rather took the time to explain in appropriate detail/multiple posts the actual nature of their practice and their conclusions. ' 

If Sarah Li is really interested in this topic, I'm sure DW post will inspire a great discussion. 
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Dream Walker, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 12:42 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 12:42 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 1657 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Aeon ........
If you would save the snark for the people who are actually preaching or delusional, and instead use your stellar intellect to provide socratic questions and resources that are actually helpful to brand new members who post in good faith, I would appreciate that too.

Quid pro quo?
Aeon,
Please refer to the home page of the Dho - 
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/home
  • No name-calling or ad hominem attacks
  • No on-and-on repetitious, angry rants that marshal no supporting evidence, target an interlocutor, and have the effect of intimidating the interlocutor.
  • No threats of violence, even if metaphorical or aimed at no one in particular
  • No taunting, mocking, or intimidation of an individual or a group on the basis of race/ethnicity, sex, disability (including mental illness), sexual orientation, religious preference, or spiritual practice
  • No speech acts that would be actionable under US criminal or civil tort law 
  • Don't post copyrighted material that you don't have the right or permission to post or distribute except snippets allowed under Fair Use.
Ad hominem attacks refer to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument instead of attacking the substance of the argument itself.0 This type of fallacy is often used to attack opposing views indirectly by attacking the individuals or groups that support these views. Ad hominem attacks can take many forms, from basic name-calling to more complex rhetoric. They can involve insulting a person instead of properly replying to a point that they raised, or questioning their motives in response to their criticism of the current state of things.

Please consider this your second warning,
~D
​​​​​​​(Moderator Emeritus)
Adi Vader, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 12:47 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 12:47 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 268 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Sir. I understand what you are saying.

Perhaps an optimal way to respond is for a mod to very politely (if tersely) point to a code of conduct, and lock the post.

​​​​​​​Anger begets anger and snark begets snark.
Olivier S, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 1:03 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 1:00 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 872 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Based on the rule you are quoting, I find most of your posts rather borderline, to be honest. They often have a distinctly intimidating/mocking/ad hominem feel. (edited)
Adi Vader, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 1:03 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 1:03 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

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This is pointless, please ignore.

DW I am sure that you are a fantastic human being, and that you have reasons for being extremely impolite to people who talk about their attainments.

Please note that I personally believe that you are unnecessarily impolite. But ... you do you! ... I suppose!
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Aeon , modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 1:17 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 1:15 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 212 Join Date: 1/31/23 Recent Posts
I enjoy DWs directness too, that is true, not sarcastic.
I have even enjoyed the snarky tone when people come in with bold generalizations.
Still I want to point out it's sometimes excessive.
This is a new member who is trying to learn via community, not sell or convince or claim anything.

"This tells me that you have never been to 8th jhana but are experiencing something of your own experience with no credability of how you are labeling your experience."

How is that helpful? Why not put it kindly instead? Clearly our guy can write and elaborate well, so the tone is by choice.

"
  • No taunting, mocking, or intimidation of an individual or a group on the basis of race/ethnicity, sex, disability (including mental illness), sexual orientation, religious preference, or spiritual practice"

You can't tell me @dreamwalker  you have not been intending to mock people for their (attempts at) spiritual practice.
You may have written precisely to avoid "name calling" but the intent is there, is it not?
What is this for? Your own amusement?
No sarcasm: You are smart enough to actually steer people who are deluded or practicing unskillfully in a better direction, yet you choose to mock more often than not.
And yet you immediately call me out for namecalling when I do something similar, albeit more direct, so you agree to the point that mocking is bad enough to moderate it.

You know what, go ahead and give the third warning and ban me. I don't care. I'm sure you can find something to support your decision in some way.

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. " - Cardinal Richelieu
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Dream Walker, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 1:47 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 1:47 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 1657 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Sarah Li,
I am sorry your thread has gotten hijacked to a different topic. 
Please copy and paste your original content to another new thread as I am having trouble splitting this thread.
I will copy the pertinent information over to your new thread unless the other posters do that themselves. Then I'll attempt to rename this one. 
Thank you,
~D
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 1:52 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 1:52 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 2343 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
(Heh, if this is a drive by poster, I suspect this is exactly the kind of reaction they were looking for emoticon )

Anyway...

Sarah, to better answer your question ("If there are any reports of something that sounds like this, any literature on strange concentration states, I would be grateful for references to those.") --- what literature were you using to feel comfortable discounting that the states you describe are beyond Jhanas 1-8? That's the odd thing that I suspect DW was reacting to. You seem to categorically rule out the idea, but it's really unclear how/why you are doing so? What are you using as your main reference?
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Dream Walker, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 2:49 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 2:49 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 1657 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Aeon ........
I enjoy DWs directness too, that is true, not sarcastic.
Thank you.
I have even enjoyed the snarky tone when people come in with bold generalizations.
"Snarky"
adjective
  1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
  2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.
I will point out that you are overusing this term and not very accurately in my opinion.
Still I want to point out it's sometimes excessive.
In your opinion.
This is a new member who is trying to learn via community, not sell or convince or claim anything.
Is that true? They are trying to learn? I suppose asking for references in the last sentence would appear that there was curiousity engaged. I do not know this person Aeon so I can not make generalizations as to intent. Do you know this person and their intent? 
As for claims, there are quite a few, perhaps you might read it again.
1) A shift (undefined)
2) access to all 8 jhanas easily (undefined as to practice to do so) (no description of said jhanas to confirm terminology)
3) j8 is still quite fabricated (undefined)
4) Instruction: Enter the 8. jhana and get accustomed to it (undefined how this is proposed to be done)
5) Claims of 4 voids (Defined somewhat)

"This tells me that you have never been to 8th jhana but are experiencing something of your own experience with no credibility of how you are labeling your experience."
If a person can - "Enter the 8. jhana and get accustomed to it" -that would be the first person I've heard of that can do so. The credibility of such a claim is in my opinion extremely doubtful. 

How is that helpful? Why not put it kindly instead? Clearly our guy can write and elaborate well, so the tone is by choice.
Yes my tone is a choice. 
Making multiple claims with only vague phenomenology, and incorrect attributes, this creates a high level of doubt to me. My tone is skeptical until I get a response that may corroborate this information. There is a lot of noise vs signal on this forum thruout the years.

"No taunting, mocking, or intimidation of an individual or a group on the basis of race/ethnicity, sex, disability (including mental illness), sexual orientation, religious preference, or spiritual practice"

You can't tell me @dreamwalker  you have not been intending to mock people for their (attempts at) spiritual practice.
mock intransitive verb
  1. To treat with ridicule or contempt; deride: synonym: ridicule.
  2. To imitate in fun or derision.
  3. To mimic or resemble closely.
I can tell you that I have no intention whatsoever to mock people for their spiritual practice.
Claims should be questioned, the more or higher they are, the more questioning and skeptisism there should be, in my humble opinion.

You may have written precisely to avoid "name calling" but the intent is there, is it not?
No, unlike your intent to name call and use ad hominim attacks, I try to stay on the topic.
What is this for? Your own amusement?
Do you think I come here for amusement. No, please do not project upon me. I am not here for the lulz.
No sarcasm: You are smart enough to actually steer people who are deluded or practicing unskillfully in a better direction, yet you choose to mock more often than not.
I would strongly disagree with your opinion.
And yet you immediately call me out for namecalling when I do something similar, albeit more direct, so you agree to the point that mocking is bad enough to moderate it.
Similar? You are engaging in namecalling, you are engaging in ad hominim attacks. Do you wish to apply the definition of mocking people to your list of intent and execution? 

You know what, go ahead and give the third warning and ban me. I don't care. I'm sure you can find something to support your decision in some way.
Oh no, that is not my call to make, I defer to others to evaluate and decide as I am one of the parties involved. I abstain.

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. " - Cardinal Richelieu
Such a nice guy that Richelieu.

Have a good day Aeon,
~D
Sarah Li, modified 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 8:46 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/10/23 8:46 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 4 Join Date: 5/31/23 Recent Posts
Thank you Ni Nurta for actually replying to my question. I will experiment to see how what you describe fits with my experience.

I joined the forum because thought I could share a few things I found while approaching meditation with fun and curiosity, but it seems that this isn't the right community for this. I'm perfectly fine with exploring things on my own, so that's what I'll do now. Bye.
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago at 6/11/23 7:23 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/11/23 7:23 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 2343 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Hope you'll stick around and even search on some of the old threads. I suspect you might find some good stuff and have a good conversation...

For what it's worth, this is a pretty good description of the jhanas in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha:

Part III: The Samatha Jhanas – MCTB.org

and L. Brasinton's stuff is very good too:

The Jhānas (Concentration States) (leighb.com) 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago at 6/12/23 1:58 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/12/23 1:58 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Oh no!
Totally not my intention to make you go away. We need skilled people to perhaps give inspiration for how to do practice/focus correctly and despite wrong attitudes this community is great and helpful... in some ways... I guess...

Actually... are we great community who is helpful for everyone or bunch of frustrated dark nighters who seeing someone has good time have to bring them to hell just like our own? :/

Anyways, the intention with last paragraph was to say something about focus - which I assume you have already pretty good - and not to scare you away. I didn't know people will immediately act in exactly the way as to prove they are brutes without any doubt... though my insights about nature of thing usually come out true in the end so it was inevitable emoticon

In either ways with good focus you can do it yourself. You with with or without anyone else.
I am more worried about others here... ;)
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago at 6/17/23 2:41 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/17/23 2:10 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Hm, actually I would consider "sockpuppet" namecalling. Can all parties please refrain from namecalling?

Asking critical questions is allowed here and an important part of this forum. However, please stay open to the possibility that new posters writing about their experiences may be serious practicioners even though their write-ups do not meet your expectations. If someone were to be overcalling attainments, it's not like they would be alone in doing so here. DreamWalker, I know you didn't refer to any specific person as a sockpuppet here, but in the context it is easy to see it (mistake it?) as implying that this thread is an example, which is exactly the stance that some others react to. Having said that, Aeon, you did use namecalling to attack, whereas DreamWalker was trying to stay on topic. Please don't.

Is it possible to ask the important critical questions and be welcoming to new members?

I appologize for my absence in this. Sometimes I fall behind, as it can be hard enough to deal with the challenges of my own life. Catching up with the acitivity of this forum can be a bit overwhelming.

Linda Ö
DhO Moderator

P.S. I will follow up with a post on topic, separate from the moderator role.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago at 6/17/23 3:32 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 6/17/23 3:29 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Hi Sarah Li, and welcome to the forum! I hope you will continue to share your experiences here. I appreciate the joy of your curiosity and that you took the time to reach out to other practicioners to engage in exchanges about our joint explorative journeys. It’s fascinating, isn’t it?

I do not have access to the entire jhanic arc at the moment, and not reliable access to jhana, so unfortunately I can’t try out your experiment right now. I have had shifts which have led to sudden access to a variety of concentration states, but that has been temporary developments for me, as my access tends to vary over time. I would still be happy to talk about it based on previous experiences. I hope that’s okay. 

I have experienced a number of absorptions that cannot readily be translated  into the Theravadan jhanas, so I have no doubt that there are more absorption states than those 8. Some of them seemed to follow a sequence that matched the descriptions in the video with Kennet Folk and his student, but since that period I haven’t been able to repeat that so I’m not sure they would stand up to more throrugh scrutiny, as it was quite some time ago and I have refined my critical eye since then. 

Other states I would say occurred on some other axis than the jhanic arc while still being absorptions. They were not beyond that arc, just different. My teacher Michael Taft says that there are endless varieties of nondual absorptions that take on some quality of the form rather than transcending it (I don’t see transcendence as the ultimate goal of my practice, to be clear, and neither does Michael). 

It is possible to bring different aspects of experience into a jhana, for instance in order to vipassanize it, as you yourself mention. Exactly what can be brought into it while we still refer to it with a specific name is up for debate. Then we have different depths amd subjhanas, which you also mention, so navigation is indeed tricky. 

My personal preference with regard to the formless realms, for my own practice, is to only count what totally lacks any sense of having a body, including those of a vibrational field, and anything even remotely resembling visual, auditive and tactile inputs. And yet, in the Kenneth Folk video, he and his student are talking while experiencing them, so clearly my criteria are not the only ones. For me in formless realms there is no sense of me being there as an observer, which is paradoxical, I guess, because efter coming out of it the sense of having observed it does arise. But I would not be able to go ”beyond” 8th jhana by first just being and then letting go of the sense of being, because that letting go has already happened. I can’t say what it would be like in a softer version of those jhanas, as I wouldn’t know how to categorize such a state in a way that makes sense to me. For me, it was a weird aha moment to notice, in coming out of the states, that whereas in 7th jhana there is a very clear sense of nothing remaining whatsoever (funny though, because if nothing was truly there, then how come there is a memory of experiencing?), in 8th jhana the Nothing fell away. And yet, since cessation followed after that, distinct from it, of course some layer still remained. 
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I appreciate that your reasoning in the text is more nuanced than the thread topic, and that you are open to different interpretations rather than saying that the states you experienced were ”beyond” 8th jhana. 
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I have had one very solid absorption experience where time froze and became an aspect of space. It’s hard to describe in retrospect, but as I remember it, all moments were spread out as part of space. Not sure at all how I concluded that they were all moments. Coming out of that, as sound came back, its sequentiality seemed extremely gross at first, with the extension and change of sound as timed experienced was chunky and weird. 
ealnm mehl, modified 8 Months ago at 7/10/23 6:55 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 7/10/23 6:55 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 35 Join Date: 3/31/23 Recent Posts
yeah the problem that I think we're having here is some sort of linguistic capture. Someone thinks that language only belongs to them. @dreamwalker I encourage you to read something about Ludwig Wittgenstein, as in the actual man, like just the guy, lived 1889-1951. Read about his interactions with others. Here's a good one:

'Several Bloomsbury figures were there, including Virginia Woolf and Keynes’s new wife, a Russian ballerina, Lydia Lopokova. Unfortunately, Wittgenstein was, too. Lydia made the mistake of remarking, “What a beautiful tree,” presumably too casually, whereupon Wittgenstein glared and demanded, “What do you mean?” and she burst into tears.'

That's you! 
ealnm mehl, modified 8 Months ago at 7/10/23 7:00 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 7/10/23 7:00 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 35 Join Date: 3/31/23 Recent Posts
Actually, that's not even you, because Wittgenstein was terse enough to be funny, whereas you typically take up approx 10x his sentences to convey the sentiment.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 7/11/23 10:07 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 7/11/23 10:07 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Here is a video clip on the theme of making the mistake of saying "What a beautiful tree" to the wrong person: https://youtu.be/4KXidr0z1RY
I find it hillarious, because those conversations actually occur all too often within dharma communities. Nowadays instead of having to go through with it, I just share that video clip. The clip is not at all like Dream Walker, though. I happen to know that Dream Walker actually knows his stuff. He can be very helpful and good to talk to. But I find it very sad that Sarah Li left. I would have enjoyed comparing notes more, as I too enjoy playing with a variety of concentrated states. The Therevadan Jhanic arc is definitely not all that's there. When we bring different formed qualities into absorptions, the possibilities seem to be endless. The historical Buddha would probably not approve of all of them, as he was the renunciate type, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. I mean, lately I get clear nimittas from kissing. I also get absorbed into the sensations of peppermint lip balm or lips cold from eating frozen cherries. I remember reading Daniel saying that he gets into numb legs jhana. I don't see anything wrong with being playful. 
ealnm mehl, modified 8 Months ago at 7/11/23 10:44 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 7/11/23 10:40 AM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 35 Join Date: 3/31/23 Recent Posts
Well, just from perusing his posts, I do get an impression that he knows a thing or two; that's why I pulled out Wittgenstein, who I also think knew a thing or two about emptiness! That's a crazy coincidence with the video you've posted. I guess in this climate, one must always be on guard when saying anything nice about trees.

I'm actually a bit bitter, because I also came to this forum with *my own* realization a while ago, and I was shut down by him; although in my case I find it easy to defend myself, but it's not something I'd do because, well, who has the time? This obsession with terms is not something I enjoy; I work with strictly defined terms and vocabulary for a living, and in my spare time I'd rather focus on something closer to actual human speech. I'd written it in a log I'd started recently, but my gold standard for any insight is whether I could make my mom make sense of it: if I couldn't, then it's probably too esoteric for my own good. Certainly my mom is not wrapping her head around these 'selfing' processes any time soon, and I don't care for them, either.

Would Buddha mind sensations? I can only hope not! I actually have a lot of these renunciation tendencies, which I might or might not follow up on in the future, but at the moment I'm really fascinated by how getting more advanced in concentration can get you to become a much better practicioner in art. A lot of these East Asian monks were also poets, and painters, and of the most excellent kind; I think recently my thoughts and ways have been aligned with theirs, in a way that I'm starting to understand what they left behind on a very intuitive level. The Buddhist monk Myōe wrote:

"Bright, bright and bright,
Bright, bright and bright, bright.
Bright and bright,
bright, bright and bright,
bright moon."

I mean, isn't that all what you need? I have a feeling that it should be enough for me. And yet, some other advanced Zen masters (Hakuin iirc?) said that they considered becoming poets, and later realized that silence is better than any art, so to speak; and a deep appreciating of silence might bring more good than devoting their lives to the art of expressing the most possible in the least amount of words. I guess each of us must decide for themselves!

How does getting nimittas from kissing work? I try to imagine it and kinda fail. Is it like a feeling when particular experience, like a bodily experience, really absorbes more of your brain than it usually would, and you just sort of inhabit the experience for an extended period of time, feeling it in spatial, sensory ways that you usually wouldn't? For me it sometimes feels like I'm seeing my back pain, for example, and in general that my back pain suddenly takes up like 90% of my processing capacity; it's subtle, because I'm not a very skilled meditator, but does it sound in any way similar to what you're describing?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 7/11/23 6:20 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 7/11/23 6:19 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
If you find that something needs moderating, please send a direct message to me with a link to the post as I'm the moderator and there is unfortunately not any way to flag a post to catch my attention.

I respect that you have your own gold standard that works for you, and I think it's cool. I'm not going to explain my meditation experiences to my mom, though, as it would freak her out, and I definitely want to thoroughly address the selfing processes in my practice.

I sure hope the Buddha wouldn't mind sensations, but it might be the case that he did. Thankfully, there have been developments of Buddhism since then, with Vajrayana seeing everything as a possible doorway to liberation. Anyway, I just meant that he allegedly was very strict about jhanas only coming from a wholesome focus, and that craving isn't wholesome. Depending on how one would define craving, kissing absorption, for instance, might not qualify. How "kissing nimitta" works? By unifying the mind, I'm assuming. Being completely there with the experience. I wouldn't say that it's a mental mage of it, in the sense that people usually put into that wording, even though it is an image that is mindmade. It's a dot of light at the center of the visual field (behind closed eyelids). In In what way did you see your pain? Was it synesthetic?
ealnm mehl, modified 8 Months ago at 7/11/23 6:47 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 7/11/23 6:47 PM

RE: Voids: concentration states beyond the 8. jhana

Posts: 35 Join Date: 3/31/23 Recent Posts
I don't know! I guess if I was really forced to put it to words, I could see my pain as a 3D region, and I could map very clearly how it was travelling through my nerve endings, sort of like a data visualization thing. Sort of like this: https://jackmckew.dev/img/3d-gradient-descent.gif

Ah, I actually (I think) get that dot of light all the time! It started appearing when I tried to get into kasina meditation. It sort of never does anything interesting for me, though. I should probably be more attuned to its presence and then I would be able to talk with it some more.

I'm also sorry about maybe having too much fun in and around these concepts; I wish you utmost progress on your path. I'm thankful for the opportunity for voicing what things look like on my end, and for finding out how they look on yours.

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