I've been going to school and working for many years now and I've finally finished my teaching certification and I'll be done with my masters degree next semester. I've decided to begin a dedicated meditation practice -- one which was made problematical by the stresses and terrible weird hours of school, student teaching, and work.

I think that perhaps the best way to go would be to develop concentration before taking the vipassana path. Therefore I have started doing samadhi mediation an hour or two each day. My goal is to achieve the 1st jhana before proceeeding to vipassana.

That being said, I realize that it is almost impossible to get 1st jhana outside of a retreat situation. My plan it to practice an hour or two every day and then try and attend at least 1) one three day meditation retreat, and 2) one ten day meditation retreat each year (my partner has already given the "okay" to the ten day retreat).

I also realize it could take a year or more of practice to even get 1st Jhana. Maybe longer. However, it seems really important to develop concentration so as to make vipassana really productive and worthwhile.

How many folks out there waited until they achieved at least 1st jhana before starting vipassana?

Also, after getting 1st jhana, did you then immediately begin vipassana or did you then think or feel it was important to develop the other jhanas before proceeding to vipassana?

Just out of curiosity, about how many retreats do my fellow lay practitioners out there attend each year, and about how long are they?

I am serious about beginning a practice which will have results, even if it takes decades. However, I don't really see month long or three month long retreats in my future as I have a partner who needs my support and presence. I have no children at the moment but it is possible that we are going to have one in a couple years.

Hi Alan,

Welcome to the DhO

Where do these beliefs come from? I wouldn't say 1st jhana was impossible to achieve off of retreat. It can be achived quite quickly if there is appropriate effort and appropriate practice is put into action. I was able to get to 1st and 2nd jhana quite quickly using a blue breakfast bowl as a kasina object while at home off of retreat conditions.

Many can attest to having progressed quickly off of retreat conditions. I would question any 'belief' or 'view' you have about what is possible or impossible and drop those that slow progress. Beliefs often are self-fullfilling.

It could take a week of dedicated practice to get 1st jhana IMO for a beginner at home. Emphasis on dedicated.

Question those beliefs!

Nick

I suppose I've felt it was better to ere on the conservative side regarding how long it could take. I don't want to be sitting there on my cushion everyday wondering if I am going to get jhana that day when that is basically unrealistic unless I meditate at home for ten hours straight or more or something. Shaila Catherine, Ajahn Brahm, Dan Ingram, and Stephen Snyder have written about how important retreats are for obtaining Jhanas and have -- it seems to me -- implied it is hard to immpossible to do in a daily practice situation. I remember hearing Alan Wallace talk about (on Buddhist Geeks) what I believe was a three month retreat he organized where no-one obtained jhana but many "got close." Richard Shankman has also posed questions in his book Samadhi regarding whether it is possible for lay practitioners to achieve jhana outside of a retreat and the answer is usually something like "possible, but not usual."

It is heartening to hear of your success, Nick! If I managed to obtain a jhana stage outside a retreat I'd be thrilled, to say the least. That being said, hope for the best, plan for the "worst."

You may want to keep in mind that there are different standards for what constitute jhana (as well as potentially different states that various sources identify as jhana). Ajahn Brahm, for instance, has an extremely high standard for jhana (namely, that all sensory experience be cut off), whereas MCTB has a standard that is much easier to meet off-retreat...as Nick said, possibly in a week.

One important point to make here is that the standard for jhana that you use may depend on what you intend to accomplish. MCTB's standard is more than sufficient for practicing MCTB-style vipassana. Ajahn Brahm's standard would be overkill (though perhaps valuable despite that).

End in Sight, thank you for the valuable point/distinction. I flop between these various texts on jhanas and it is very true that there are sometimes significant differences and distinctions between them. I will therefore make a point of trying to clarify in my mind what standards I am going to use for 1st jhana as not having a clear goal in mind will make working towards that goal more difficult...

Before you set a standard for 1st jhana, it might be better to set a particular goal that you want the attainment of 1st jhana to support.

What do you hope to achieve by pursuing meditation, either in the short term or the long term?

Well, what I want to do is develop my concentration to at least a 1st level jhana, then apply that concentration to a vipassana insight meditation practice with the end goal being a minimum of stream entry.

Access concentration is better than momentary concentration when it comes to insight meditation practices, but 1st jhana is even better than access concentration for insight so that is why I want to develop it.

Regarding the definition of 1st jhana, I guess I basically subscribe to what Stephen Snyder and Tina Rasmussen wrote in Practicing the Jhanas and Shaila Catherine wrote in Wisdon Wide and Deep that it is a state which contains all the five jhana factors to some significant degree [applied attention, sustained attention, joyous interest in the breath, deep contentment regarding the breath as object, and one-pointedness of attention], that "the awareness is extremely secluded and focused (Snyder and Rasmussen), and that prior to "snapping" into jhana there is a well developed nimitta.

Catherine writes that "Some teachers require a deep absorption that allows no thought beyond the initial directing of attention toward the meditation object [...] Other teachers accept quite light states of tranquility as the first jhana, permitting fleeting thoughts as long as they do not progress into a rambling train of association. And still others may liberally apply the term jhana to states in which the jhana factors arise along with bodily impressions, and accept only a basic detachment from corrupting reactions of desire and aversion as the defining feature of the first jhana. In this book I use the term jhana for rather deep states of absorption that can be sustained for a significant duration -- twenty minutes, thirty minutes, one hour, two hours or more -- without the intrusion of any thought, sound, or sensation, and without the weakening of the supportive jhana factors. When students report that they have attained jhana, I expect that the absorption would easily be repeated sitting after sitting, again and again [...] (75).

Also, 1st jhana should produce healing and positive feelings energized by "a joy born of seclusion," which results when "the mind is separated from hindrances" (77). Also, when in jhana, "the five senses do not arise while in jhana" (Snyder 28) and "there is no thought or noticing or decision making while fully absorbed in jhana" (28).

So that, basically, is how I am defining jhana. If it is a exceedingly hardcore definition, then so be it, but that is what I am striving for...

I personally had really bad samatha skills until I had stream entry, but I learned to note early on and could do it well on retreat once I had some practice with it.

That said, I crossed the A&P (which is second vipassana jhana territory) in daily life without any formal meditation training at all a good number of time before I learned much at all about meditation, so what does that tell you?

Be very careful about what you call first jhana. If you adopt some very hard, high, samatha-heavy standard, you will likely shoot yourself in the foot trying to get that, when long before you ever attained that, you could have rocked out some serious insight.

Remember, Mind and Body is first jhana territory (the vipassana aspect), and plenty of people can get to that quite easily. When I say you must attain the first jhana to do vipassana, that is what I am talking about.

I know a number of other people who have good jhanic skills and never went on retreats at all.

Daniel

If you could attain MCTB stream entry more quickly by setting a lower standard for the level of absorption you want in the 1st jhana than the standard you are talking about here, would you?

Duly noted. As my main goal is to progress productively through insight, this is a valuable corrective. Of course, it should be pointed out that some of these jhana teachers are pitching hard for the jhanas and the jhanas's value, and clearly some of them have very intense standards for jhanas.



I should probably investigate the differences between the samadhi jhanas and vipassana jhanas more. I think I have obviously been focusing more on the samadhi jhanas.



This is good to know and inspiring for my practice. At a certain point I suspected that insight or samadhi jhanas were unobtainable outside of a retreat situation, even with a committed practice. I am glad to be wrong about that...

Darn tootin'. I stand corrected and want to thank everyone that helped set me on a more productive path for obtaining my goal.

Hi alan,

I'd be interested in hearing about how your practice is going. How is it going?

Nick

@Nick: Thanks for inquiring.

I have resolved to meditate at least twice daily, once in the morning and once at night, for about an hour each if possible, which I started this Monday. I have meditated on and off at numerous times in my life. As a youngster (I am now 35), I was taught Shikantaza mediation by my father and uncle who were daily meditators and who were both active at a Soto temple in Evanston Illinois. A few years ago I became interested in samadhi meditation and practiced it sporatically. A dedicated daily meditation practice was made difficult by the fact that I was working nights, going to school (teaching certification, student teaching, grad school, a 140 miles commute there and back, etc), driving into the city whenever possible to see my girlfriend, family involvements, etc. With just one semester left I am thrilled to be able to begin a meditation practice which I hope will provide a spiritual eduation in the way than school (for twelve years) provided me with an academic education. School taught me a great deal of discipline and I hope to channel this discipline in part into my meditative practice.

I have a zafu and a zabuton, and my apartment has a loft, so I've decided to meditate up there. It is easy to meditate during the day because my girlfriend is at work, and easy to meditate at night when my girlfriend goes to sleep. I work weird hours so we aren't totally aligned regarding when we are awake and asleep, etc.

I have already learned that it is best for me to meditate on my zafu. There were a few times that I tried to meditate elsewhere when my legs got stiff, such as a chair, and even in bed, by the mind is so trained to wander in a chair, and sleep in a bed, that it is really much more productive on the cushion. My mind feels sharper for longer periods of time.

My plan is to practice samadhi meditation for a handful or months -- who knows, six or so? -- to strengthen my focus. If I could obtain access concentration, that would be wonderful. My original plan was to meditate until I obtained 1st jhana, and only then begin vipassana mediation. However, some of the things I've read on this site are making me think again. Although the jhana teachers go on to no end about how essential jhana is for insight meditation, it seems people around here feel that samadhi can be developed along the way, in the course of doing vipassana meditation. Dan said he never really developed samadhi until around the time he reached stream entry. Plus, it occurs to me, that vipassana jhanas may be develop in the course of insight meditation -- and at least then I will have gained some insight along with the concentration! Nevertheless I'd like to practice the concentration a bit before I leap into vipassana, which will give me time to 1) develop concentration, and 2) learn more about how to perform vipassana mediation (which I've never formally been taught). I have downloaded a few texts by Mahasi Sayadaw, S.N. Goenka, and I will read the relevant sections of Dan's book to get me started.

My meditation has gone well so far, I believe. I am focusing on the breath in the general vicinity of the nostrils. When I start it often takes about ten minutes to settle the mind. Even then I occassionally drift into a dream fantasy, of nod off, or have a thought zip through my mind, but to a lesser degree. Then I am pretty focused for about twenty, thirty minutes and then I start to notice the pain in my leg and/or foot and I wonder if the alarm is going to go off any second. It then gets harder to focus until I decide to stop. I am thinking about switching my meditation session to 45 minutes until I am rocking it solid without thoughts and discomfort, and then switching to an hour (in a week or two).

As I focus on my breath, sometimes a few things seem to happen: 1) sometimes the breath seems to become louder and more noticeable, and it sounds rougher, and I've assumed that this was because my concentration was coming to focus more directly on the breath; 2) sometimes I see lights and cloudy substances, which I KNOW isn't a nimitta, but it is hard to get my mind to not wish for it to be a weak nimitta (I have to practice not wanting a nimitta); 3) a few times I've gotten the sensation of prickles on my scalp, like my scalp was crawling, and then in my mind it has felt like I've emerged into a more open space, such that my mind felt more like a cave as opposed to a block of stone. It has seemed at those times that less thoughts managed to penetrate into my mind, or at least they were more easily held at bay. It is hard to say how long these states lasted. About ten minutes? I have also learned to turn off the heater because the blower is in a closet in the loft and when that thing goes off it really throws off your concentration. I don't know if this was a mild case of access concentration. I don't want to read too much into it, but it also used to happen sometimes back when I was doing samadhi a few years ago. It is light, but it does feel like a stronger concentrated state. I would like to be able to get into this each time I meditate. We shall see. Too much desire, however, will probably thwart me so I want to play it cool, so to speak, and not get too excited about slight changes in consiousness or slight, purple webs that appear before my eyes.

A few other notes. I recently read an article which suggested that the emphasis on a light nimitta has been exagerated, and that it is perhaps equally likely to have a feeling, or sensate nimitta -- such as a feeling like cotton, etc. I know I am nowhere close to getting a nimitta but just having read the article has helped allow me to stop looking for lights. The article also said that some traditions suggest not focusing AT ALL on the nimitta, which has helped me try to keep my awareness solely on the breath.

Once I had a second or two of pleasure wash over me. Was it a jhana factor? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Just keep focusing on the breath...

I have wavered between trying to imagine the breath as pleasurable and delightful, which some people have suggested as helpful, or just focusing on the breath as regular, which others have recommended. Generally I just focus on the breath and don't try to imagine it is seductive or overly intriguing.

Also, I have a nostril issue. I now have a cat (my girlfriend's) living with me to which I am mildly allergic. It means that my nostrils are in a near constant half state of congestion. Not dripping, just stuffed. I purchased nasal spray and it works wonders at clearing my completely, but I don't want to become overly dependent on it by using it every day. I wonder if from time to time it might not be possible to switch my focus on my breath at the lips of the mouth, or do I have to pick one site and use it from now until forever...This situation is unresolved.

That is about all I have to report at this time! Thanks for reading.

Alan

The practice that leads up to jhana (of the level that you're interested in) is useful in the sense that it "purifies" a person in such a way that their mind becomes capable of it...as the main impediment to jhana (of the level you're interested in) is the stream of passions that are constantly arising. And jhana itself has an effect on them above and beyond that.

So, in that sense, jhana is very helpful for insight...but, it depends on whether your goal is the end of the passions, or MCTB paths. If the latter, jhana (of the level that you're interested in) is not needed, and this probably accounts for the difference in opinion that you're seeing.

Having some familiarity with jhanic states that would appear to meet other teachers' standards, my opinion is that going for them is overkill for MCTB 1st path, and further, that they are unlikely to arise for you at the level that you're interested in until your mind is extremely purified...a level of purification you are not likely to reach outside of a dedicated retreat environment until you have a *lot* of meditative attainment under your belt. (Not even with a year of twice daily, 1-hour-per-sit practice.)

Having some familiarity with jhanic states that would appear to meet other teachers' standards, my opinion is that going for them is overkill for MCTB 1st path, and further, that they are unlikely to arise for you at the level that you're interested in until your mind is extremely purified...a level of purification you are not likely to reach outside of a dedicated retreat environment until you have a *lot* of meditative attainment under your belt. (Not even with a year of twice daily, 1-hour-per-sit practice.)

The main impetus for initially selecting 1st jhana as a goal was the supposition that this was truly instrumental to the path of vipassana. Of course, I would be by no means adverse to achieving jhanas 1-8 for their own sakes and benefits. They sound amazing and purifying. That being said, insight would be an achievement of even more import for me.

If it is the general concensus around these parts that 1st jhana is not a necessary and essential precursor for pursuing and achieving stream entry, then I will shift my methods and practices to a vipassana focused practice.

Later down the line, of course, perhaps years later, if I am fortunate and diligent enough to achieve stream entry, I could always go back and pursue the path of the samadhi jhanas.

Question #1: Is it possible to make productive gains on the path of insight while generally practicing for two hours a day? I am by no means adverse to going on an occassional 3 day or even 10 day retreat once a year.

Question #2: Should I continue to practice samadhi meditation until I've achieve "access concentration" before moving onto insight meditation? Just how clear and noticeable is it when one achieves this?

Thank you friends!

You say you used a blue bowl as a kasina object, are there colors that are recommended, or? I used to experiment with a candle flame but it was killin' my eyes, especially in dim or no light, so I left off.

Again, keep in mind that there are two different goals: the end of the passions as such, or MCTB 1st path (leading to MCTB 4th path).

For the latter, "extreme" jhana is much more dispensible. (It may not be required for the former, but it helps a lot!)

Of course, the latter can lead to the former as well...I am just trying to give you a sense of how different goals may be more distinct than you realize.



It is absolutely possible...however, it is advisable that you supplement that with an attempt at constant mindfulness outside of your formal practice.



Depends on how scattered your mind is normally. This is a personal decision...the solution may be to try different approaches (e.g. concentration to various levels first) and see what works.



According to MCTB standards, noticeable but not notable...your mind will stop jumping around and you will feel quite "present" and able to consistently stick with whatever object of meditation you're using, without significant mind-chatter or gaps in your awareness of the object.

Insight practice is about momentum. Practice for however long it takes you to get up to the fourth vipassana jhana (equinimity). This will require tweaking in your plan.



Personally, I got the first four samatha jhanas before I started doing insight practices. This took about about 3 months (for all 4) after finding out that samatha jhanas existed (no retreats, just meditating on my own for several hours when I could). However, I had been meditating for several hours a day (1-4) for several years before this. However, I suffered from severe depression sorts of problems and therefore an extreme lack of mindfulness. Therefore I found out about the jhanas when mindfulness had been somewhat established and I began digging around for something deeper. If you know this much about jhanas you are probably at the point I was after meditating several hours a day for several years. I also still suffered from a lot of negative mind-states, but used the "static" jhanas like medicine to temporarily suppress my negative mind states before I was able to see them through more clearly in an insight way (and to finish college, which I was still in at the time).

I have actually never sat and consciously tried to develop the jhanas as "static" as I did during those months, because I had this idea at the time (from reading stuff like Ajahn Brahm and Richard Shankman who I've met) that jhana was something that needed to be really solid and thick to be called "jhana." I went to one session of a jhana group hosted by Shankman and he told me I was "way way way" ahead of everyone else. (they were all much much older people than I, and yet were asking simple questions along the lines of "is jhana the same thing as stream-entry?" Which it is not, by the way)

You might want to check out this page by Kenneth Folk that describes "dynamic jhana" vs. "static jhana" http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Dynamic+Jhana+vs+Static+Jhana

Kenneth says he recommends "dynamic jhana," and I would agree with him.

@Thomas: Thank you for sharing your insights and experiences.

Could you please elaborate on the differences between static and dynamic jhana? [It is not entirely clear to me, based on the Folk site.]

Also, how many hours a day did you meditate to develop your samatha jhanas? Also, do you feel it is more productive to meditate for a long period once a day, or meditate twice a day for shorter periods (so as to develop the samathai jhanas [it would appear that you believe that meditating for a longer period is better for vipassana])?

Three months? Pretty amazing accomplishment! Do you have a book or text which you felt was particularly helpful in developing the samatha jhanas?

@End In Sight: Thank you as well for your thoughts! It is good to know that I can seek insight without mastering the jhanas, but I still think I may end up working exclusively on developing the jhana samathas for six months to a year.

Best!

Static jhana is trying to enter into an altered-state of bliss. It is the jhana taught by Ajahn Brahm in his book Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond.

dynamic jhana is vipassana jhanas without concern for whether the vipassana jhana is turning into a samatha jhana or vice versa.. As well as disregard for what jhana you are in. This will lead to enlightenment.

[This is confusing because some of the "scripture" and most static jhana teachers will claim you have to "master" each jhana before moving onto the next one - this is a "static" jhana teaching and approach]. This approach is learning to cultivate bliss for the sake of bliss, but does not lead to enlightenment.





Varied from 1--4, usually not all at once and broken up throughout the day.

Also, do you feel it is more productive to meditate for a long period once a day, or meditate twice a day for shorter periods so as to develop the samathai jhanas

In general, for both jhanas, it is better (when starting out) to meditate for a long period rather than breaking them up into shorter periods. This will keep the momentum going of practicing throughout the day if you're doing insight, and for static jhana the longer you sit (in one sitting the better. This is really easy to do when you start getting samatha jhana because the time will fly by quickly. You'll enter jhana, bliss out, then suddenly notice two hours have gone by.

[it would appear that you believe that meditating for a longer period is better for vipassana])?

Apologies for the confusion, you will not be able to meditate up to the fourth vipassana jhana in one sitting period (or even in several days). It would take either a retreat or three weeks-several months of dedicated daily-life practice (or both).

Although after access to fourth samatha jhana you will be able to meditate up to that in one sitting, but it will not lead to enlightenment unless you penetrate all the four samatha jhanas as vipassana jhanas instead.

Despite being able to attain the fourth samatha jhana, path was never attained this way (for me). I had to start from the beginning and develop the vipassana jhanas instead. This is harder in the sense that it isn't as much "fun."
"



Not so amazing considering I had been meditating daily 1-3 (or more) hours a day for about two years before I learned what jhanas were. Never in this time did I spontaneously enter a jhana (as I had a very very bad "monkey mind"). Let's see, at the time I had Daniel's instructions in MCTB, Ajahn Brahm's book Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond, sutta readings on the internet, and one session (and question) with Richard Shankman (which wasn't as helpful or influential as you might be imagining)....and a lot of spare time. Ajahn Brahm's book will help you, but don't read the whole thing. Just read the instructions for entering jhana as they are way more detailed than MCTB. Several days after reading the instructions in the book, I entered first samatha jhana. Everything else in the book will be unhelpful as it contains a fair amount dogma.

Personally I had very mild concentration skills, sort of weak hints at access concentration, when I started noting, and I got stream entry after 4 months without a retreat. During the 4th ñana I first started to chance into real absorption, but to this day it has happened only occasionally. I attribute my lack of concentration to the fact that I don't do retreats.

The main reason why I'm writing this post is that—several times already—people have thanked me for saying mean things like the following:

The mentality that your TV (if you watch it) and your employer (if it is like most American corporations) impart on you and constantly try to reinforce expresses itself in words, phrases, and thought patterns such as:

I would be thrilled
this is terrific
the goal is a minimum of
achievement
of course I am nowhere near adequate yet
exciting new changes

Let me try to translate / elaborate on them:

I would be thrilled: my body would shiver or tremble
this is terrific: it is horrific; it induces terror
the goal is a minimum of: strive for the minimum, nothing else
achievement: proving to the organization that you are not completely worthless as is naturally their initial assumption
of course I am nowhere near adequate yet [This is a thought pattern, not something actually uttered.]
exciting new changes: you will get less and have to pay or work more

These are directly opposed to the development of stillness or insight.

Stop watching TV if you can and haven't already done so. Read the suttas. Gradually this will change your words and thoughts to a mind set more conducive to meditative progress.

In meditation, accept what is. Don't go into it with the notion that your current experience or your current self is clearly nowhere near some goal yet, but if an "attainment" happened anyway, it would be a huge and pleasant surprise [but not really, because, in the back of your mind, you already know you're better than most people; but then again, in the corner of your mind that's right next to this one, you always fear you're worse than most people].

Just in case you don't know this already: I don't know anything about you, so don't take any of what I have said personally. Much of it may not actually apply to you specifically, but even so, someone else reading this may find what I have proposed useful.

@Thomas: Thanks for making the distinction between static and dynamic jhanas clear to me! Clearly I think I'd prefer to get the lil' guy shooting up and down the mountain and then getting enlightened as opposed to the old blissed out guy who never makes it up!

I think based on what we've discussed, I may from time to time insert a longer mediation period into my day instead of necessarily breaking them up into two parts. I'll remain flexible and try to do what is best and necessary for my practice.

It is good to hear of your successes in meditation -- both samadhi and vipassana -- despite your struggles with depression. BTW my girlfriend has bi-polar and some degree of personality disorder. She has, of late, become more open and receptive to the idea of meditation as a possible tool for helping her deal with unbalanced mental states. She insists that focusing merely on the breath -- samadhi -- is something that she doesn't like, isn't helpful, actually can increase anxiety sometimes, etc. I've struggled to come up with a meditative alternative. I've considered metta, and told her about it, which seems like a kind of cognitive behavioral thing -- focusing on love and compassion, etc -- and gave her Noah Levine's book Heart of the Revolution to read. Although, the more I learn about straight up vipassana noting, that is starting to sound like it might be an extremely useful practice. Specifically regarding your depression, what was the most useful style or method of meditation?

@Dauphin:

Personally I had very mild concentration skills, sort of weak hints at access concentration, when I started noting, and I got stream entry after 4 months without a retreat. During the 4th ñana I first started to chance into real absorption, but to this day it has happened only occasionally. I attribute my lack of concentration to the fact that I don't do retreats.

It is important to know what you were able to obtain stream entry although the samadhi jhanas remain difficult. I am seriously considering beginning vipassana sooner than later, but I will probably still take a at least few months to seriously strengthen my concentration skills and read more of the major texts on noting and vipassana before I embark on the vipassana path.

The mentality that your TV (if you watch it) and your employer (if it is like most American corporations) impart on you and constantly try to reinforce expresses itself in words, phrases, and thought patterns such as:

I would be thrilled
this is terrific
the goal is a minimum of
achievement
of course I am nowhere near adequate yet
exciting new changes

I currently work for a major shipping corporation (which you probably see everyday) in their warehouse and I can attest to the fact that it is the opposite of insight or stillness. It is hellish. A hierarchical, military-style environment with people constantly blowing their tops (aka losing their shit) where hard physical labor is extracted from workers in an industrial, Taylorist fashion. I've worked there for almost 13 years as I've put myself through school to become a teacher. Hopefully I will find a teaching gig for this August 2013 so I can start my new life of Right Livelihood. Mindfulness and the suttas have helped me get through many rough patches at my job...

NOTE*

Something definitely happened during my practice today.

I was doing samadhi meditation. I decided to try counting, which , for some reason, I never liked the ideas before, but thought I'd give it a shot. Counting 1-10, then back down from 10-1, focusing on the breah just in front of the nostrils the whole time as well. I was surprised that I was often unable to make it through 10, let alone back down to 1. I did this for about half an hour, counting all the while, but also focusing on my breath. I also started the practice of "noting" the intrusive thoughts, labeling them, which I've never done before. It was the Ron Crouch page, which finally inspired me to try counting, and also, to "note" intrusive thoughts and sensations http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/how-to-meditate/

Anyway, around the half hour mark I suddenly started getting these flashing purple clouds in front of my eye (which were closed), and it felt like my head opened up into a cave (instead of being the usual block of stone -- solid feeling), then it felt like a vice was gently squeezing my temples and forehead, I got washes of tingles and pleasurable feelings in my body and head (brief though). It felt like my face got very tight -- that is the best way I can describe it -- like the skin got pulled tight. And my lips started trembling against my will, literally shaking, mostly the top lip. I noticed that particularly on the out breath, the breath felt nice, pleasurable. I was then able to quite easily count 1-10 and then back down from 10-1. At one point I got another wash of pleasurable feeling, and my heart started palipitating, again, against my will. I feel like the palpitations kind of chased the pleasurable feeling away. Then, I kind of stabilized into the tight faced, lip trembling, cavern headed, easy to count 1-10 and then 10-1 zone. I was actually doing this in bed next to my sleeping girlfriend. She woke up at this point and started talking to me, so I opened my eyes and responded. It wasn't like I "poofed" out of this head-space, though. It continued and lingered to a certain extent, even with my eyes open. I decided to continue meditating with a focus on the breath, counting, with my eyes open (which I don't usually do), and I was able to easily count up to 10 and then back down again to 1. No purple clouds, though, with the eyes open. After having stopped focusing on the breath and counting, I felt like I could have just sat there, focusing on nothing, for a while. After walking around and doing stuff, the feeling left after about ten minutes.

I should note that I've had similar kinds of experiences when I was doing this type of meditation a year or two back. This felt stronger, however, with the lip trembling and head vice-y stuff. I think the counting and noting helped, and I was surprised it happened in bed with my girlfriend sort of flopping around and the cat on my lap...

I love this post man. How the hell can any of us want to live in a society that promotes unhappiness and vastly lesser ways of being, or even better, feeds off of collective unhappiness in order to exist? This line: "These are directly opposed to the development of stillness or insight." is why I want to leave it behind and never come back, never see it or hear from it ever again.

Are there any suttas in MN Middle-Length suttas that you'd particularly emphasize or advise reading carefully?

Alan, I realize that you have had a number of helpful answers and that your practice has progressed since you first asked this question, but if you haven't already done so -- and if you aren't already buried up to the eyebrows in excellent and pertinent resources -- I would recommend taking a close look at Ian And's posts, especially The Practical Aspects of Establishing Mindfulness and A General, All Purpose Jhana Thread as well as following the links he references.

I appreciate very much you bringing these threads to my attention. Thank you! That is why I am here: to learn and improve my practice :-)

I imagine this is what is meant by "aloof from society", a phrase that comes up time and time again in the suttas. I really get what you're saying about leaving it all behind Mike. Im right with you! For many that's not an easy option though. Those of us with kids and other unbreakable commitments to "regular life" have to ditch our TV's, read the Suttas and generally avoid the "win now!, buy now! Must have!" frenzy we humans have so misguidedly created as best we can.

It can be done. But your sense of samvega has to be really strong.

Thanks for the article link, Bagpuss, it was really very good, though it doesn't quite tell me what I wanted to find out.

I want to find out HOW to do this, how to exit from society and yet do so in a supported way, exactly as it details in the article. The article describes my feelings wonderfully, describes my dilemma wonderfully, but when it comes to the solution part starts talking about how lucky we are that the Buddha had a fortunate alternative socially-speaking in his time....that's true, otherwise there would be no example, but what about MY society and MY time. It addresses that this society has no real method of supporting those really saturated by Samvega, those seeking that very Pasada that it then mentions, but then...what? I've been trying to explore the spiritual scene where I live, and it's empty. A few aging boomers looking for wellness, kind in that they let me explore what they've got going on but not offering the kind of all-over change I'm talking about; which is really indescribably frustrating and unending, with not a single aspect of my previous life left untouched. It'd be better if there were more than tops one or two people in my actual life who I can bring some of this feeling up with and who will have some clue of what the hell I'm talking about, and I'm sorry to be sexist but certainly no women I've met here seem to want anything or understand anything close to that, which is annoying as balls.

Yeah there's this website, and I'm sure glad it exists rather than not and have the situation for myself and people like me be even more barren, but this can only go so far being a website. This isn't a changed daily lifestyle, a changed social milieu, both supporting and informing the overall goal of Awakening and freedom, and that's what's necessary, nothing short of that will do.

It seems the only way to do that then is to find out about monasteries that are any good, probably in Thailand or Korea or something, and hope they'll accept me into one of them (I've read that it's usually difficult for westerners to be accepted into a monastery to live there for an extended period of time, and that many Asians somehow don't understand why we'd even want to do that). I'm afraid to do something that extreme, but every other solution isn't working so far. I've tried doing this by myself, and I've tried looking for teachers who seemed suitable near me, and I've turned up empty-handed on both counts after a few years now.

I have heard that Thanissaro Bhikkhu, who wrote the article, makes himself available to field dharma questions. I suggest asking him for advice on this subject, as 1) he wrote the article, and 2) he is the abbot of a monastary here in the US, and thus has a personal understanding of the issue of how to be supported outside mainstream society.

Good idea!! Writing to him now..

He also takes phone calls at certain times during the day, in case you'd prefer to talk rather than write.

Alan, sorry for the late response to these questions.

I have used a good deal of noting in my practice, but no longer find it useful or necessary. It previously seemed like noting was the only useful way to go about things, as it was at times quite difficult to go about practice in any other way that actually seemed effective. Otherwise, it was all too easy to lapse back into unconsciousness. However, I payed a huge price for the noting. Namely risking and having drops into mania and psychosis (due to this sort of karmic background, and perhaps the influence of the medications on the practice). Heavy noting practice always seemed to result in heavy activation of the "powers" [hearing voices, having delusions, etc] (in my case).

I do know of a case of one person who did not take medications for his "bi-polar," and who actually behaved as a walking basket-case, who went on a 10-day Goenka retreat (and I feared for his life), but he came back perfectly fine and raved and raved for years afterwards about how much it helped him. So apparent severity of "illness" is not necessarily an indicator of how well you'll fair on retreat (as I have no history of being able to maintain a retreat of that length without lapsing into powers-laced "insanity"). Though I'm 100% certain he did not know about the noting method and him being un-medicated may have helped (yes you read that right). He also may have made little to no progress through the nanas while on that retreat and is raving about something else. So who knows.



My practice has been chaotic, to say the least. This is due to the karmic propensities (what you're calling the mental illness thing).

I have used a combination of (in rough temporal order) "training the puppy sitting" (for about 1.5 years) -> concentration jhanas -> zen koan practice -> straight up vipassana noting -> HGA invocation/interventions (This sort of just happened starting several years ago, but I do not at all recommend magick approaches for someone with such karmic history, yes the "angel" only appears when you're "ready," but what's your definition of ready? This has pushed me to the edge, though perhaps a "guardian" was necessary due to the circumstances) -> Reggie Ray's bodywork (www.dharmaocean.org) -> out-loud noting (I found if noting was to be done at all, it was better when done out loud) -> beginner tai chi -> some basic yoga postures/classes -> Who am I? practice -> choiceless awareness -> some of the actualist methods (felicity, apperception, "how am I experiencing this moment of being alive," focusing 4 fingers below the navel) -> dream/sleep practices

Now (within the last couple months) I naturally cycle through the nanas in a way that moment-to-moment awareness seems to be maintained at all times. Meaning there has been a considerable drop in suffering since the last shift in heavy practice. As such, I have recently started using actualism methods and am finding them to be more relevant to me than they were. I have stopped my anti-psychotic med completely and lowered the llithium dose down to one pill a day, with no adverse effects.

For me, it took some amount of progress in paths before I could do actualist methods or other non-dual practices effectively (both in sustaining them over time and in their immediate momentary clarity). Not suggesting this may be the case with your girlfriend. I tried zen practices several years ago (at Seung Sahn's Empty Gate center), but the results were very fleeting, and the koans were completely nonsensical (at the time), so it seems to have taken some pathwork to get this stuff to stick [or "not-stick" as the case may be...]

Tom

Thank you for the amazing response. It sounds like you've had quite a journey of exploration. I hope you have found some happiness!