RE: Regarding shamata-vipassana and gradual practice

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Artie Sá, modified 1 Year ago at 7/30/23 10:18 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 7/30/23 10:18 AM

Regarding shamata-vipassana and gradual practice

Posts: 9 Join Date: 7/25/23 Recent Posts
Hello, I am in need of guidance in my formal sitting meditation. In my 7 years of daily meditation I have always encountered a problem which is nebulous at best and I think it has something to do with pride, impatience and motive for meditating. I feel that I am not grounded sometimes when practicing and there is a mental pressure that comes so often. This mental pressure is definitely a reflex of perfectionism, a need to go fast, have an experience and end the practice. Yesterday I was reflecting on this and was trying to convience myself that having an experience isn't the goal, as an answer my subconscious asked ''Then why are you even doing this in the first place?''. I did not have a reply. I tried looking for one but nothing clear was coming up. Why do I practice meditation? Why do I do it if it is not to have a big experience? And what would I do if I had one of those in the first place? Does that say anything about me? There is a lot to unpack and I feel groundless. Has anyone gone through a similar experience? I don't know if this is the right thread to ask.
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Chris M, modified 1 Year ago at 7/30/23 12:43 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 7/30/23 12:43 PM

RE: Regarding shamata-vipassana and gradual practice

Posts: 5407 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Hello, Artie. What was the reason you started meditating seven years ago? 
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Year ago at 7/30/23 10:38 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 7/30/23 5:32 PM

RE: Regarding shamata-vipassana and gradual practice

Posts: 1792 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Artie Sá
Hello, I am in need of guidance in my formal sitting meditation. In my 7 years of daily meditation I have always encountered a problem which is nebulous at best and I think it has something to do with pride, impatience and motive for meditating. I feel that I am not grounded sometimes when practicing and there is a mental pressure that comes so often. This mental pressure is definitely a reflex of perfectionism, a need to go fast, have an experience and end the practice. Yesterday I was reflecting on this and was trying to convience myself that having an experience isn't the goal, as an answer my subconscious asked ''Then why are you even doing this in the first place?''. I did not have a reply. I tried looking for one but nothing clear was coming up. Why do I practice meditation? Why do I do it if it is not to have a big experience? And what would I do if I had one of those in the first place? Does that say anything about me? There is a lot to unpack and I feel groundless. Has anyone gone through a similar experience? I don't know if this is the right thread to ask.


My opinion is that I practice today for the benefits that I get today, not some day in the future. Those benefits include

Being relaxed: (deactivating the sympathetic nervous system and activating the parasympathetic nervous system)
Calming the mind with relaxed concentration and mindfulness: (deactivating the default network in the brain and activating the experiential network)

To relax and have a calm mind requires letting go of clinging, and when the tranquil state is disturbed you know dukkha as arisen, and when you return to the tranquil state you know dukkha has faded - so I find this tranquil state is a good starting point for vipassana (insight) meditation.

When I watch my mind as I meditate, I notice that distracting thoughts go through a progression where at first I am distracted by stressful events of the day or worries about the near future. Then as those quiet down (which tella me I have let go of them - at least temporarily) the distractions become more random, then those quiet down and I have good concentration. So I observe the process of letting go happen repeatedly. And when I notice the progression of how my mind quiets down, even if my experience of meditation from day to day is not always the same, I have a sense of where I am in that progression so there is still a sense of consistency rather than mystified confusion.

These skills, relaxing, quieting the mind, letting go, observing the mind, improve with practice.

When you practice this way in meditation and daily life you feel better today, you suffer less, you don't have to wait for some big event to end all your problems (which it won't actually do anyway).

But you also develop improved skills that gradually change you over time. I don't measure progress by what happens during meditation. I measure progress by what happens in daily life.

Shinzen Young says most of his students awaken gradually without any big event.
https://www.lionsroar.com/on-enlightenment-an-interview-with-shinzen-young/

Jack Kornfield calls this the gateless gate.
https://inquiringmind.com/article/2701_w_kornfield-enlightenments/
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Artie Sá, modified 1 Year ago at 8/1/23 7:53 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 8/1/23 7:53 AM

RE: Regarding shamata-vipassana and gradual practice

Posts: 9 Join Date: 7/25/23 Recent Posts
I *felt* it was the right thing to do. I knew I had something there for me that would be longlasting and I took the opportunity to go on retreat once it showed up.
User 08, modified 1 Year ago at 8/3/23 1:06 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 8/3/23 1:06 AM

RE: Regarding shamata-vipassana and gradual practice

Posts: 57 Join Date: 7/31/23 Recent Posts
I completely get wanting to have a big experience. It's kind of hilarious that Buddha sold enlightenment as this phenomenal thing that ended his suffering, but now people (especially Zen practitioners) are all like "yeah but you're not supposed to want it." Buddha talked about desire for the path all the time. Desire not to suffer is completely normal and is the engine of our arduousness in meditation. However, it sounds like it's gotten to the point where you're now frustrated. I would be too, if I practiced solidly for 7 years with no results. But is that true in your case? Have there been no results at all? Although I think it's good to aim for enlightenment, meditation also has its short-term benefits. Does it not reduce your suffering at least a little pretty much immediately? If not, that sounds like something worth looking into.
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Year ago at 8/3/23 1:56 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 8/3/23 1:56 AM

RE: Regarding shamata-vipassana and gradual practice

Posts: 1792 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
https://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/59.2a-Atthaka-Uposatha-S-1-a8.20.pdf
Even so, bhikshus, just as the great ocean slopes gradually, slides gradually, inclines gradually, not abruptly like a precipice — so, too, in this Dharma-Vinaya, penetration into final knowledge occurs by gradual training, not abruptly.
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Artie Sá, modified 1 Year ago at 8/3/23 7:27 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 8/3/23 7:27 AM

RE: Regarding shamata-vipassana and gradual practice

Posts: 9 Join Date: 7/25/23 Recent Posts
Honestly I think the results where there but not in the way I heard other people talk about progress, there was no progress in stabilizing the jnanas for example, they just kind of had a life of their own, even though I was much clearer in noting them than 7 years prior, so it was very circumstancial. It's just the ADHD man, it is tough, I do not function like a ''normal'' person and I am not medicated. One positive thing though is that I contacted a Lama that was very interested in my ''uniqueness'' as she herself is also neurodivergent (autistic in her case) and she said to drop shamata and do the tantric practices, which is quite a relief for me. I am now motivated once again about my journey into the Dharma.
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago at 8/3/23 7:41 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 8/3/23 7:41 AM

RE: Regarding shamata-vipassana and gradual practice

Posts: 2659 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Neat!
Stranger_Loop Stranger_Loop, modified 1 Year ago at 8/3/23 10:28 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 8/3/23 10:28 AM

RE: Regarding shamata-vipassana and gradual practice

Posts: 65 Join Date: 3/17/23 Recent Posts
> Then why are you even doing this in the first place?
> There is a lot to unpack and I feel groundless.
Why do anything and who is the you that wants to do things ;)? I feel like really figuring out these answers, answers everything else as well and includes some type of enlightenment or insight into emptyness.

During the meditation I would just note the thought/mental pressure/wanting.

For more practical answers, I do meditation for the interesting and possible transformative (in the sense of L.A. Paul) experiences. Big experiences sound more interesting than small ones, but both are interesting. I had one big experience before starting to meditate which gave me some answers to the questions.

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