Spiritual progress seems to require skill in being able to surrender. To me, "surrender" means letting go of control, struggle, strain, needing to know, needing to understand, needing to feel safe and secure, needing to analyze and interpret.

Progress in business requires also this skill of letting go. There's two broad styles of progress in business. There's the Steve Jobs or Richard Branson style of progress, which is high-risk, easy, light, struggle-free and wildly successful. And there's the china sweat shop style of progress which is full of struggle, control, strain and corruption. Both create lots of wealth, but only the first style allows progress in the long term.

Progress in relationships definitely requires surrender. There's nothing more unattractive than a forceful and willful approach to dating and mating. On the other hand, being vulnerable and flowing with the moment allows you to have fun and connect... and this is very attractive. In established relationships, the work is to surrender to the other person, if you want to develop real love.

This is why I say - if you haven't succeeded in the ordinary world of work and relationships, then there's no way of working towards enlightenment, because it's the very same skill that is required for progress. It won't happen unless you have first learned how to surrender with basic ordinary desires.

Proof? Examples? Or just another 'belief' conditioning the way you interact with and how you relate to the people who post here and everywhere? What do 'you' gain by convincing someone of this theory? Do 'you' have anything, and I mean anything at stake by posting this thread and convincing someone of your ideas? Be honest.

How is your own practice going, CCC? What are you doing in your practice? Do you get pleasant sensations when 'you' post your opinions here? What do 'you' feel when you post stuff like this? Be achingly honest. Have you ever investigated exactly why you post here? Serious questions, seriously interested.

I'd like to see your own practice thread with details of what you are trying to do to be a happier human being. I'm seriously interested in what you are doing.

You sound angry.

My practice is exactly what I wrote about - surrender. Getting better and better at that, I find. The more I surrender the better things go.

What I gain from posting this is credibility and respect. You know, my ego enjoys those things.

But there are gains for others too. Wasting years on meditation and depression when you could be happily progressing - I feel like I've done quite a community service. That's also good for my ego.

People keep asking why I come here: I keep saying I enjoy reading about real spiritual progress. Some day i hope to join those who are doing it for real.

I wasn't. What if you re-read what i wrote with the following in mind?

**gentle curious relaxed tone**



Do you sit? How do you surrender? What is the process? How often do you do it? Can you give an example?



Who do you gain credibility and respect with? How do you know there is respect and credibility there? a feeling? something else? How do those two things manifest in your expericne?



i see.

who is doing it for real?

I surrender by letting the exhalation go at its own speed, not forcing, not controlling. That results in a slightly faster exhalation with a more abrupt finish. While I'm doing that I pay attention to whatever I feel in the heart. I do it until any discomfort disappears. I am very strongly of the belief (born of repeated experience) that low mood should never be taken into a formal meditation, because it will aggravate it. With drugs, "set and setting" determine your experience. A low mood = a poor (mind)set, and will likely lead to a bad trip and post trip problems. This should be applied to meditation too.

During the day I make an effort to release all control over things and go with the flow. I try to watch for where the flow is taking me, as opposed to where I think things should go. If I can't tell what the flow is doing, then I just continue on with my own thing.

To me, surrendering is the only spiritual practice, and anything that involves effort is counterproductive. The first sign that I'm doing it right is that things start to go my way... in the material world. Things start working out. Not just people but traffic lights. Traffic lights seem to understand that it's better if they don't change right now, but instead wait until I've passed the intersection. Obviously I'm using this is an example. New age thought... Yeh...so who cares? No different from magik, (minus the bat's blood and casting of spells). Hundreds of my experiences with people and situations verify for me that the way I'm feeling will be reflected in what happens next. I see signs everywhere, patterns, links everywhere.....so long as I'm not walking around trying to see signs patterns and links. It's evident on reflection.

There was a post by someone recently in here, and I thought, that's nice he is really flowing properly. It was humorous, light, gentle, and real . In the very reading of it you could sense some peace and wonder in him. People betray who they really are every time they talk or post. Someone might say he is an arahat, but every time he posts it's like reading a textbook - dull, worn, uninspired, mundane. Let me see if I can find that post. brb.

Can't seem to find it, but guys like Adyashanti when they talk or write, what makes them "right" is that their talk matches their walk. There's no mismatch. If he writes about peace, you can feel it in the words he uses, that he lives peace.

A little Experiment:



CCC, you seem to have a practice which is working for you and this is good to see as you don't really talk about it at all but prefer to voice opinions on things. You seem to lean to one side a bit and it would be good to see more practice posts. I think that is more helpful than trying to impress your opinions and views onto others. Your opinions hold more weight with a practice to support them.



It 'seems' you are intent on wanting to have people see things your way. This is pretty much what everyone wants I think, for people to listen to them and take notice. Validate my opinions and beliefs please. It makes 'me' feel better.



But it's good to see something actually practice related in one of your posts finally. Perhaps you could continue to share such things. They make it easier to see where you are coming from.




Did you have a different impression of each thing you read in your mind with the different tones? If so, what does this tell you about how you read into things and evaluate what others write? Is there any automatic 'projecting' of one's own feelings going on when this happens? Or is it all the person who you are reading's fault?

Nick

What makes you think that it's not the other way around, for example? I.e. if you haven't succeeded in enlightenment, then you won't succeed surrendering in the ordinary world of work and relationships? After all most people aren't terribly good at those. I don't really see the logic in calling work and relationships, but not enlightenment, "basic and ordinary" - what's more basic and ordinary than one's own existence?

I'm not saying it's actually the other way around; just that your argument does not convince.