Some descriptions of jhana

End in Sight, modified 12 Years ago at 12/25/11 9:35 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/25/11 9:31 PM

Some descriptions of jhana

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
As there has been some interest in deep jhanic states here recently, I thought I would post two short articles that I ran into recently. They are interesting to me because they are fairly non-theoretical descriptions, and give a sense of what's interesting about concentration when pursued to a very high degree, and what it may be like.

http://www.aimforawesome.com/happiness/what-is-the-purest-experience-available-to-humankind/
http://www.realitysandwich.com/jhanas_meditative_absorptions

The former author associates jhana with "unfiltered perception", which I think is typical of the "maximal" state (in which there is no cognition).

The latter author has had (by his own admission) a lesser experience, but the descriptions are interesting nonetheless. It seems he hasn't quite figured out how to get rid of the attention wave, and so it figures into his descriptions...apparently manifesting in some cases more than others. But the jhana factors sound like they're there.

If anyone else has accounts of jhanic experiences from non-theoretical sources, post the links!

EDIT: And here is a neat summary of the second author's opinion of his non-"maximal" jhanic experiences

My third and final prefatory note is that I actually do have a fair amount of experience with mystical states, and these [i.e. jhanas] blow all those experiences out of the water. With the possible exception of ayahuasca, I have never encountered anything like this -- and I have spent many years meditating, davening, doing energy work, and engaging in a wonderfully wide range of ecstatic and contemplative practices. Without being too arrogant about it (which would be an ironic reversal of the point of spiritual practice!), I think I know whereof I speak.

When I described some of my experiences to a friend, she remarked that they sounded similar to what Elizabeth Gilbert describes in her book Eat, Pray, Love. I had precisely the experiences Gilbert describes on my first meditation retreats, six years ago. They are world-shattering, mind-altering, and profound. They provide a direct experience of what generations of mystics have described in glowing mystical terms. I do not wish to minimize them, and have described them in this magazine's pages in the past. But the jhanas were far, far more powerful and more profound -- perhaps an order of magnitude more. They're like the qualities of those earlier experiences, well, concentrated, refined, and distilled. If what Gilbert, and I in those earlier essays, described is like a lovely Hershey's Kiss, the jhanas are like a rich, hot molten chocolate cake. Get it?
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(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 12 Years ago at 12/26/11 1:42 AM
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RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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Interesting sounds quite different from the MCTB versions of Jhana.
End in Sight, modified 12 Years ago at 12/26/11 7:16 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/26/11 7:16 AM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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In my opinion the latter author's experiences share things in common with MCTB jhanas, and MCTB jhanas could be experienced in a way that is more like those experiences if people built more concentration while practicing them...but, I also think there is a difference, and what makes me think that is stuff like this:

http://www.realitysandwich.com/jhanas_meditative_absorptions:

The first jhana is like the "big wow," an awesome peak experience that arises after the mind has finally settled on the object of concentration with focused, sustained, one-pointed attention. (...) In my experience, the nimitta would become radiant, awesome, and beautiful, and grow to fill my entire field of vision, and surround my body; the experience was like a glowing, energetic light surrounding and cocooning my whole being.


i.e. lack of gross perceptual narrowing caused by exaggerating the attention wave.
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Christian Vlad, modified 12 Years ago at 12/27/11 9:33 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/27/11 9:33 AM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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Thanks a lot for posting these interesting links, End In Sight.

I have just worked through them, and it sounds like these guys have really touched some of the deeper jhanic states as compared to the more "superficial" versions that seem to exist as well (and are probably more than enough for reaching first path).

For me, it's still very hard to relate to these really absorbed states. I have had some glimpses of first jhana I think, but they were very shortlived and I definitely don't have any reliable access at all. Some people on this forum have reported feeling pressure on the head often during meditation, and I have that a lot too lately, especially on the temples, forehead and eyebrow regions. I am still wondering what to make of that. Some say that this is a sign of improving concentration, but I have to say that I get these pressures even in sessions when I am drifting off a lot, so maybe there's something else to it. I also have no clue what to do with these physical sensations. Try to make them grow stronger and put my attention there? Try to relax those pressures again while simultaneously going on with the breath awareness? Completely ignoring them? (It seems the latter is almost always a valid option when it comes to samatha practice)
Maybe some of the more experienced practitioners can say what this is about or what happens with these seemingly common sensations as practice and experience grow stronger. Will the pressure just release itself at some point with a sudden jolt (thereby catapulting one into a different state of mind)? Or will this effect just keep coming up throughout the meditation practices and never resolve itself?

Also, I noticed that you used the term attention wave a couple of times, End In Sight. As someone who is basically pre-jhanic, I am not sure I can relate to what you mean by that, or how to use it to improve concentration practice. Maybe you could elaborate just a bit more what exactly is meant by the term.

One last thing: I really find these discussions and reports by others (experiences and rookies) very helpful and inspiring, Thanks to everyone who is contributing on here. This is all pretty exciting stuff.
End in Sight, modified 12 Years ago at 12/28/11 9:35 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/28/11 9:35 PM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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Christian Vlad:
I have just worked through them, and it sounds like these guys have really touched some of the deeper jhanic states as compared to the more "superficial" versions that seem to exist as well (and are probably more than enough for reaching first path).


The MCTB version, superficial or not, are sufficient even for reaching MCTB 4th path.

Some people on this forum have reported feeling pressure on the head often during meditation, and I have that a lot too lately, especially on the temples, forehead and eyebrow regions. I am still wondering what to make of that. Some say that this is a sign of improving concentration, but I have to say that I get these pressures even in sessions when I am drifting off a lot, so maybe there's something else to it. I also have no clue what to do with these physical sensations. Try to make them grow stronger and put my attention there? Try to relax those pressures again while simultaneously going on with the breath awareness? Completely ignoring them? (It seems the latter is almost always a valid option when it comes to samatha practice)


One of the latter two, I'd say.

The goal for samatha is to generate pleasure. The more pleasure, the more concentration. So, if you want more concentration, I'd prioritize figuring out how to generate pleasure, and worrying less about incidental experiences. If you generate enough pleasure, and get fairly deeply concentrated, most of the tensions you feel will go away.

Also, I noticed that you used the term attention wave a couple of times, End In Sight. As someone who is basically pre-jhanic, I am not sure I can relate to what you mean by that, or how to use it to improve concentration practice. Maybe you could elaborate just a bit more what exactly is meant by the term.


There should be a sticky about this, but unfortunately, no one has written a brief summary yet.

The best practical summary I can offer you is in the thread "Duel on liberation"...you can go through the investigation I am talking wylo through, and see what you can make of it in your own experience.
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Christian Vlad, modified 12 Years ago at 12/29/11 3:03 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/29/11 3:03 PM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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Thanks alot for pointing me to that thread, I've just been through most of it and it has been a very interesting (and long emoticon) read. This has given me a lot of perspective on the later goals to be developed and worked on after developing enough concentration skills.

However, since that is a very vipassana-heavy thread, I am still having problems relating to some of the experiences discussed over there. It's not like I don't get most of it intellectually, but I guess it's just not the same when you lack the experiences themselves. It's obvious that wylo already had some very deep experiences of insight into the no-self characteristic.
I have always kind of postponed insight practice to later, basically not wanting to start cutting with a dull knife (and getting frustrated in the process). Maybe there really is no hard line to draw between vipassana and samatha kinds of practice, I have no idea. My practice so far has always had the concentration part as its main focus (aiming for breath awareness to the exclusion of most of everything else).

I have to admit now, that I still don't really know what to make of the 'attention wave', especially in relation to jhanic practice. You mentioned that the attention wave has to be narrowed or get rid of, so my best guess would be that it has to do with the minds inability to REALLY hold still and its having to move even at the speed of microseconds. Thinking about it, detecting this ongoing flickering already sounds more like vipassana to me. Are you maybe trying to imply that this inability to hold still can and should be stopped for the duration of the jhanas to go to the maximum that is possible?


You said that the main goal should be to generate pleasure. Fair enough, but since this implies some kind of activity, I just really have to wonder HOW the heck can this even be done, since mental force and sheer willpower seem to be out of the equation according to most jhana 'tutorials' (just letting go and having it 'come to you' seem to be the tenor).

Something you wrote in the duel thread caught my attention, namely the fact that strong relaxation and intense focus don't have to contradict each other. That is a theme I have been gnawing on for most of my (still young ^^) samatha career.
For me this really seems like an unresolvable issue as of now. I just don't see it happening together. As soon as I start trying to HEAVILY relax body and mind, the attention wanders away from the nostrils. Likewise, forcing my attention to stay on that spot automatically makes me tighten my muscles.
Is there some trick to it? Could it be that order matters here? As in first getting that really hard focus, and AFTERWARDS relaxing the tension while keeping up the focus?
Doing both at the same time to a high degree seems like an impossibility to me right now.

Thanks again for taking time to share your knowledge with guys like wylo, Rashed and myself. It's certainly highly appreciated!
End in Sight, modified 12 Years ago at 12/29/11 10:01 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/29/11 10:00 PM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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Christian Vlad:
I have to admit now, that I still don't really know what to make of the 'attention wave', especially in relation to jhanic practice. You mentioned that the attention wave has to be narrowed or get rid of, so my best guess would be that it has to do with the minds inability to REALLY hold still and its having to move even at the speed of microseconds. Thinking about it, detecting this ongoing flickering already sounds more like vipassana to me. Are you maybe trying to imply that this inability to hold still can and should be stopped for the duration of the jhanas to go to the maximum that is possible?


If you can perceive flickering (a preliminary form of seeing the attention wave), then the basic idea is, jhana allows you to turn it off.

BUT, figuring out how to turn it (or anything else) off is greatly aided by seeing all the gory details, so that you can judge whether you're turning it off successfully, and so you can see what remains to be turned off.

I would say that this yields both concentration and insight, and requires both concentration and insight:

[quote=Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Three levels of concentration]
And don’t think of the staying there as just waiting blankly until you’re
allowed to do insight practice. The skill of learning how to stay in concentration
develops precisely the mental qualities you’re going to need for insight—because
you’re going to get more and more sensitive to even the slightest fabrications of
thought in the mind. You learn to see right through them and not get carried off
into their little worlds. And that’s precisely the skill you’re going to need in order
to see fabrication just as that—fabrication. It’s like taking the old Zen story of the
finger pointing at the moon and turning it around: You don’t want to look at the
moon; you want to look at the finger—because the finger is what’s fooling you.
It’s pointing you away from what it’s doing. You don’t want to look where your
thoughts are pointing your attention; you want to look at them simply as
fabrications.

[quote=Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Jhana not by the numbers]An ideal state of concentration for giving rise to insight is one that you can analyze in terms of stress and the absence of stress even while you're in it. Once your mind was firmly established in a state of concentration, Ajaan Fuang would recommend "lifting" it from its object, but not so far that the concentration was destroyed. From that perspective, you could evaluate what levels of stress were still present in the concentration and let them go. In the initial stages, this usually involved evaluating how you were relating to the breath, and detecting more subtle levels of breath energy in the body that would provide a basis for deeper levels of stillness. Once the breath was perfectly still, and the sense of the body started dissolving into a formless mist, this process would involve detecting the perceptions of "space," "knowing," "oneness," etc., that would appear in place of the body and could be peeled away like the layers of an onion in the mind. In either case, the basic pattern was the same: detecting the level of perception or mental fabrication that was causing the unnecessary stress, and dropping it for a more subtle level of perception or fabrication until there was nothing left to drop.

You said that the main goal should be to generate pleasure. Fair enough, but since this implies some kind of activity, I just really have to wonder HOW the heck can this even be done, since mental force and sheer willpower seem to be out of the equation according to most jhana 'tutorials' (just letting go and having it 'come to you' seem to be the tenor).


You generally have to do something actively for it to happen in the beginning, but it can be a fairly relaxed form of activity.

It is generally not possible for most people to let go without preparation and have good stuff happen...the idea behind jhana is that you can cultivate it in order to make it easier to successfully let go in further and further increments. If you had to be able to let go in order to start, it wouldn't be any help!

Something you wrote in the duel thread caught my attention, namely the fact that strong relaxation and intense focus don't have to contradict each other. That is a theme I have been gnawing on for most of my (still young ^^) samatha career.
For me this really seems like an unresolvable issue as of now. I just don't see it happening together. As soon as I start trying to HEAVILY relax body and mind, the attention wanders away from the nostrils. Likewise, forcing my attention to stay on that spot automatically makes me tighten my muscles.
Is there some trick to it? Could it be that order matters here? As in first getting that really hard focus, and AFTERWARDS relaxing the tension while keeping up the focus?


The trick is, get some pleasure at the beginning, and it will help you stay alert and relaxed simultaneously.
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 10:57 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 1:35 AM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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Since the topic was raised and it was much on my mind recently...

The Jhanas can manifest in a lot of different ways depending on the depth of concentration and the object(s) chosen and the degree to which various aspects are attended to, as well as the skill of the practitioner.

Thus, some people will say "this very specific thing is jhana" but really it encompasses a range of territory that is quite large.

One recent personal pet peeve: real formless realms are really formless realms and I think that language should be reserve for them alone, though you can say you found some aspect of something like a formless realm elsewhere as a description, but that is not the same thing.

I have heard a lot of descriptions of things that people are calling things like the 7th or 8th jhana that I would call light versions of very early jhanas, or at best very light versions of 4th, but certainly not the higher arupa (immaterial) jhanas.

In my own mind a use a very complex classification system hinted at in MCTB, such that one might say something like:

Oh, that was a light version of the 7th subjhana aspect of the 4th jhana but slightly vipassanized.
Or, that was a very strong, stable version of the 1st jhana with white kasina taken to a very hard, bliss heavy degree, such as found in the first link in the first post.
Or, that relatively diffuse, silent, out of phase thing may have either been a really heavy dissolution experience (5th ñana), or perhaps a light version of the immaterial jhana, not sure.
Or, that really was full on 7th: nothingness, body completely gone, room gone, sound not attended to, color nearly gone with black hinted at but not really attended to, exceedingly silent and truly formless.
Or, that was probably the A&P and not really samatha jhana, though quite blissful and impressive, as it was too vibratory, and thus could be classified as being part of 2nd, but really better described in terms of 4th ñana.
Or, that was true, hard 3rd jhana: wide, out of phase, cool, deep, open, very subtly blissful, quite equanimous, extremely silent, steady...
Or, that was true 2nd jhana with kasina with a slight vipassana: spinning bright point of light presenting in silent, easy space naturally, changing phase with the breath.
Or, that was true 2nd jhana taking rapture as object taken to extreme: body utterly flooded beyond anything previously imagined with orgasmic waves of mind-blowing bliss and pleasure out beyond satiation and into the realm of being overwhelmed by it.
Or, that was solid 1st jhana but on an unbodily object such that the body vanished: hard, applied and sustained effort present, bliss present, but body gone. Not a formless realm, still 1st jhana, but seemingly formless due to the object chosen, but clearly not the same as full on formless realms.

etc.

As an aside, I recently heard someone saying there was this video of a guy saying "Oh, yeah, now I am in 8th jhana" or something like that. I would say: if you are in 8th as I internally think of 8th, there would be no way to say you were in it and still be in it, as you couldn't even find your mouth to speak it, but this is just my classification scheme and perhaps an invitation to explore what the more solid, deep, hard, fully formed jhanas are and how they perform. I think that saying "I am in 8th" would be confusing to many people if they didn't know you were referring to an ultra-watered-down version of what some would call 8th, just as some would say that as what I call 1st jhana doesn't last for 24 hours then it isn't really 1st jhana, etc.

In short, I don't want to get into some sort of dogmatic terminological war, but to make 3 basic points:

1) MCTB's treatment of the jhanas is quite brief and very superficial in comparison to what is possible.
2) A lot of people have come up with their own interpretation of what they call MCTB jhanas and assumed it was the correct one, when it explains that there is a range of presentation of them.
3) There are a lot of people who are attaining things that are quite light but naming them with terms that many would reserve for much heavier and deeper stages, and this is fine as long as everyone is clear about what those terms are actually being used to mean.

I have the same pet peeve with Nirodha Samapatti: at least in my way of thinking of things it has very specific entrances and exits, everything utterly and completely is gone "during it", including time, space, and anything else, and when things reappear the afterglow and lingering aftereffects should basically blow your doors off in terms of many-hour lingering drug-like hyper-clear calm and ease and lack of interest in anything that would be edgy or social, and it only occurs after a very specific setup.

These are my biased interpretations and ways of conceiving of these things as given by examples and some specifics, if that helps to clarify what I at least mean by the wide range of things called jhana, and what people are calling MCTB jhana I have no idea.
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Yadid dee, modified 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 2:22 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 2:22 AM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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Daniel M. Ingram:
if you are in 8th as I internally think of 8th, there would be no way to say you were in it and still be in it, as you couldn't even find your mouth to speak it,


Thanks for a good laugh emoticon
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 8:21 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 8:11 AM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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Daniel M. Ingram:
These are my biased interpretations and ways of conceiving of these things as given by examples and some specifics, if that helps to clarify what I at least mean by the wide range of things called jhana, and what people are calling MCTB jhana I have no idea.

I guess I'll let End in Sight clarify, but I think what he means is that what he calls MCTB jhana is dependent on shaping the attention wave (and thus is impossible when there is none, e.g. in a PCE or AF), but his version of jhana is not (and thus would be possible in a PCE or when AF).

Daniel M. Ingram:
I have the same pet peeve with Nirodha Samapatti: at least in my way of thinking of things it has very specific entrances and exits, everything utterly and completely is gone "during it", including time, space, and anything else, and when things reappear the afterglow and lingering aftereffects should basically blow your doors off in terms of many-hour lingering drug-like hyper-clear calm and ease and lack of interest in anything that would be edgy or social, and it only occurs after a very specific setup.

I've talked about this so I'll clarify: there is certainly an attainment as you describe and you call "Nirodha Samapatti", and, when talking about it, it's clear that anything that doesn't meet that criteria (e.g. having 'something' left 'during') does not qualify. So there is "Dan-NS", and it is specific and clear what it is. But, it's also clear to me there are other attainments that are different in specific ways, which might be valuable for other reasons. It kind of does all these states a disservice to talk about which one is the "real" NS, as I think they are all interesting, and maybe debating about which one the Buddha talked about, exactly, just serves to distract from something potentially more useful, namely to experience these states and see how useful they might be. (Same might apply to jhana.)

So, for my example, I experienced a state where for a brief period there were no objects (no perception on any level of any object, thus no vedana associated with it), yet still some kind of awareness left, though not in the usual sense (in any case, no apparent gap). (I will cut short questions about whether that awareness wasn't an object by saying I don't know and have to get a better look at it.) This is definitely not Nirodha Samapatti as you are talking about it (total blank-out). But it is a state that exists, and probably the best 'preview' of the freedom I'm looking for that I've experienced since starting to meditate (literally felt that nothing else had to happen on the entire planet, that everything was totally fine... then 'I' came back), so I think there might be something to it.
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Nikolai , modified 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 8:52 AM
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RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:


So, for my example, I experienced a state where for a brief period there were no objects (no perception on any level of any object, thus no vedana associated with it), yet still some kind of awareness left, though not in the usual sense (in any case, no apparent gap). (I will cut short questions about whether that awareness wasn't an object by saying I don't know and have to get a better look at it.) This is definitely not Nirodha Samapatti as you are talking about it (total blank-out). But it is a state that exists, and probably the best 'preview' of the freedom I'm looking for that I've experienced since starting to meditate (literally felt that nothing else had to happen on the entire planet, that everything was totally fine... then 'I' came back), so I think there might be something to it.


Perhaps?

Theme-Less Concentration
"Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness.

"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of nothingness are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of nothingness. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html


Similar to apperception but maybe fabricated still?
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 10:09 AM
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RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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Nikolai .:
Similar to apperception but maybe fabricated still?


Well, there are two apparently different things I experienced after 8th-jhana-like things: one in which (with open-eyes) the whole visual field kind of 'freezes' and takes on a very sublime quality, without being able to differentiate the objects in it, and there is some concentration on I'm-not-sure-what, and another in which (with open-eyes) the whole visual field decomposes itself and apparently vanishes due to a lack of any kind of perception (immediately before + after it was an undifferentiated white-ish field, this while I was actively staring at my floor). The former I can access repeatedly, the latter I only accessed once. About the former I can say there were still 6 sensory spheres, but about the latter I can not.

They are quite different, but I wondered whether they were the same thing to a different degree. Recently, though, it was brought up to me that there seem to be two different things in the suttas: the themeless concentration, and the cessation of perception + feeling. Are these are equated in the suttas?
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 11:16 AM
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RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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@ BCDEFG: and why don't you think of that refined experience with very little else going on as something like 7th or 8th rather than NS?

@ End in Sight: how do you differentiate the methods by which you attain the one sort vs the other? Also, if you cycle through 1st-4th jhanas, are you sure that you have no attention wave, that exceedingly slippery concept, as what I am describing requires it to cycle, so it seems?
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 1:24 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 12:04 PM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

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Daniel M. Ingram:
@ BCDEFG: and why don't you think of that refined experience with very little else going on as something like 7th or 8th rather than NS?


I'll do my best to explain. Again, note that I'm pretty sure I've experienced what you call NS, and I'm not questioning the phenomenology of that experience (aka set-up, total shutdown (nothing at all remaining), coming-on-line with amazing bliss/relaxation lasting hours/days). Also I'll say "fruition-NS" to refer to what you call NS and "?-NS" to refer to the state I'm talking about.

You're essentially wondering whether what I experienced wasn't just a very hard, profound formless jhana, vs. something else entirely. A few reasons:

I've experienced 7th + 8th jhanas with no bodily feeling/breath feeling at all, before (with eyes closed). Mostly I noticed these on the way back from fruition-NS, as experience started layering back as I went down the jhanas (not sure if this happens to you after fruition-NS?). E.g. I notice nothingness coming in, then consciousness 'filling' up, then space, then body starts coming in, etc,. coarser + coarser. So, in 7th jhana, there was nothing - no body - just the experience of nothingness. In the 8th jhana there was that very weird feeling of not sure I'm there or not, something refined, but hard to tell what it is. This was totally different. There was complete + utter relaxation. Literally, there would have been no issue staying in that state forever. Nothing mattered, cause whatever could make anything matter, wasn't there. This quality was never present in the 7th + 8th jhanas I've gotten. Those still had some tension, even when they were incredibly relaxing, it was not the same.

The entrance was different. I was sitting with open-eyes. Previously, when I thought I'd gotten formless jhanas with eyes-open, the whole visual field would be taken as an object by 4th jhana, then it would start warping in weird ways. By 7th jhana its like it was there yet not being paid attention to, anymore. By 8th jhana it started to get blurry/start fading away to a spot even. And then the cessation (fruition-NS), then going back out + down the jhanas in reverse order. (Note that I've never gotten an open-eyed formless jhana (unless ?-NS is it) where the visual field would simply black out, though in some cases I noticed I'd be concentrating and it was like a black fog was creeping in to cover the visual field.)

In the case of the entrance to ?-NS, I was already in formless-territory as far as I could tell, and suddenly within a few moments everything collapsed/broke apart into that state. It was very sudden + quick + unexpected, not gradually more+more uncertain until a cessation (as before up through 8th then a cessation). It's like there was a stopgap before that just somehow broke loose, so the unhindered entrance happened right away. Also, 'being'/attention wave totally vanished as far as I could tell (which is why it was so relaxing, I think), whereas that hasn't happened before for me with formless jhanas and I don't even see that as a natural consequence of them, necessarily.

The exit was different. Usually the exit for fruition-NS is a gradual going back down the jhanas (after a few moments of not-being-sure what happened, the mind coming back on-line). And, the exit from formless jhanas is just the jhana slowly deteriorating into the previous one. In this case, it was a sudden and unexpected exit, and I could see 'being' reforming before my very eyes, ping-ping-ping-ping-ping-ping, with no mental dullness/lack of clarity whatsoever as happens when rebooting from fruition-NS. It was not like down-shifting from one jhana to another. And it doesn't seem like that would happen from an exit to a hard formless jhana to a soft one.. though again I have limited experience with really hard ones.

In short: the entrance was different (in kind, not only intensity, as far as I can tell) from formless jhanas I'd experienced before, the experience was different (in kind, not only intensity, as far as I can tell) from formless jhanas I'd experienced before, and the exit was different (in kind, not only intensity, as far as I can tell) from formless jhanas I'd experienced before.

Sutta-wise, the only two arguments I can make are: one, it's called the cessation of perception and feeling, not the cessation of the five aggregates, or the cessation of mind (as a general term for the 5 aggregates), etc. It's remarkably specific - why those 2 aggregates only? Second, about one who is in the cessation of perception and feeling it is said his "faculties are bright & clear" (Kamabhu Sutta) or "his faculties are exceptionally clear" (MN43), which seems hard to say about fruition-NS where there is no experience whatsoever. In that state I certainly felt (using the term loosely) brighter + clearer than at any other point I can remember.

Not sure if you can offer any insight on my descriptions, but I'd welcome any analysis.
End in Sight, modified 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 12:29 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 12:20 PM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
@ End in Sight: how do you differentiate the methods by which you attain the one sort vs the other?


In brief, to attain the form of jhana I describe, I would cultivate piti / sukha, and then I would ask myself "what is the grossest attention wave phenomenon here / how is this experience most grossly different from a PCE?"...on finding that, I would recognize that my mind is creating it, and stop. Then, I would repeat. (It appears to be the level of development of the jhana factors which determines how much of the attention wave can be let go of.)

With each bit of attention wave that is let go of, experience becomes that much more PCE-like. In my experience, when all of it is let go of, there is no cognition whatsoever and no attention wave at all. (This may be equivalent to what the Visuddhimagga calls jhana, or maybe not.)

So, in early forms of jhana, there is a fair amount of attention wave (but less than normal), in deeper forms it is extremely subtle and barely there, etc.

In general, the things to be let go of, in my experience, seem to be phenomena like "trying", "looking", "witnessing", "agentive restlessness", etc., which all come in varying levels. It has begun to occur to me that these things may fuel the craving-tension that generates the rest of the attention wave, and the jhanic experience demonstrates that when there is no cognition, there is incidentally none of these "volition" experiences, and thus no attention wave, which may be a hint about what needs to be gotten rid of in order to get rid of the attention wave on a permanent basis, but that is just speculation for now.

If you wanted to play with this form of jhana, before proceeding I would suggest you cultivate what you described above as 2nd jhana with a focus on rapture, and then vipassanize it: notice that the orgasmic overwhelming whateverness is likely the attention wave grossly distorting piti / sukha (simple body sensations). If you can distinguish piti / sukha from the distortion, then you can cultivate those things and ignore the distortion, and (once the distortion calms down) see how much other stuff you can let go of.

Also, if you cycle through 1st-4th jhanas, are you sure that you have no attention wave, that exceedingly slippery concept, as what I am describing requires it to cycle, so it seems?


No, I am sure that I do have an attention wave, however refined it may be, and it is quite possible that something about that causes the jhanic cycling.

In this context, I conceive of the nanas as variable ways that the mind simultaneously generates and expresses sensual desire for jhana factors / vedana, so each jhana is theoretically matched with a nana, except that (according to the form of jhana I practice) the jhana is entered by subduing the attention wave to a significant extent (once the jhana factors are strong enough), at which point the jhana-nana connection is mostly severed, and the jhana stands alone or mostly alone. Whereas, according to my understanding of MCTB, the jhana-nana connection is left intact or enhanced, which explains the phenomena you describe, and explains why you see no possibility of jhana inside of a PCE, as jhana is conceived of as something that is defined by the jhana-nana connection, and cannot exist without the attention wave (as the nanas cannot exist without the attention wave).

If I had to give a purely theoretical account of jhana, I would not link it to the attention wave or the subduing of the attention wave in any way, but to the cultivation of the jhana factors and the suppression of cognition. The jhana factors are clearly compatible with there being no attention wave (as in a PCE there can be sensations of pleasure, and those who report no attention wave also report sensations of pleasure), as is no-cognition...however, to the extent that one has an attention wave, thinking about jhana as jhana factors + reduction of attention wave is very practical.
End in Sight, modified 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 8:59 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 8:53 AM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
One recent personal pet peeve: real formless realms are really formless realms and I think that language should be reserve for them alone, though you can say you found some aspect of something like a formless realm elsewhere as a description, but that is not the same thing.


I think this is a good point. Thanissaro Bhikkhu says that the formless experiences involved with the later stages of concentrations are solidifications of normal experiences that people can have outside of concentration, and that is obviously true and explains fairly well why someone can e.g. advert to the 5th jhana and notice "space" even though they are far from a formless experience.

In my practice, I have noticed that I will cycle endlessly through jhanas 1-4 without fail, without touching any aspect of the formless realms at all, unless my concentration is high enough to produce an experience in which the senses are turned off...and, as it appears to take a lot of concentration to turn off the senses, it happens very rarely.

I think this is also the basis for the suttas division between jhanas 1-4 (part of the eightfold path) and the formless realms (optional experiences that specially distinguish practitioners with high concentration abilities from practitioners without them).

2) A lot of people have come up with their own interpretation of what they call MCTB jhanas and assumed it was the correct one, when it explains that there is a range of presentation of them.


At least as far as I have used the term, I am referring to experiences that depend on the attention wave, that take piti to be an "emotional wow" or something akin to that, that take sukha to be a sensation which can be actively irritating, that sustain a sense of attention (and attentional width) all throughout, etc. etc, which are all stated explicitly as being true of jhana in MCTB.

(EDIT: Apart from "attention wave is present", which is implied by the phenomena described as being part of jhana, and is implied by earlier chapters of MCTB.)

I have the same pet peeve with Nirodha Samapatti: at least in my way of thinking of things it has very specific entrances and exits, everything utterly and completely is gone "during it", including time, space, and anything else, and when things reappear the afterglow and lingering aftereffects should basically blow your doors off in terms of many-hour lingering drug-like hyper-clear calm and ease and lack of interest in anything that would be edgy or social, and it only occurs after a very specific setup.


I personally never figured out how other practitioners were attaining this state (as described also in the commentaries) in a way other than what MCTB says...however, do you think that when someone is using e.g. Kenneth's method, and reporting that the mind turns off completely during it, and when it comes back on that there is a sense of deep relaxation, that they are describing a different experience? I have noticed, when going through the MCTB setup, that the strength of my concentration influenced the strength of the aftereffects, and assumed that "alternative method" was simply a low-concentration entrance.
End in Sight, modified 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 9:22 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 9:15 AM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Two specific examples where MCTB jhana differs from what I am familiar with:

Daniel M. Ingram:
Or, that was true, hard 3rd jhana: wide, out of phase, cool, deep, open, very subtly blissful, quite equanimous, extremely silent, steady...


My experience: an extremely strong bodily sensation of pleasure, no perception of "wide" or "narrow", no perception of "phase", minimal mental clutter / thinking, or none in the extreme case.

Or, that was true 2nd jhana taking rapture as object taken to extreme: body utterly flooded beyond anything previously imagined with orgasmic waves of mind-blowing bliss and pleasure out beyond satiation and into the realm of being overwhelmed by it.


My experience: almost exactly like 3rd jhana, except the sensation of pleasure has a "brightness" to it; not orgasmic, no waves of anything, no experience of being overwhelmed or having one's mind blown or anything like that, the bodily experience is (apart from the added sensation of piti) no different than 3rd jhana.

It strikes me that the reason you describe what appear to be gross differences between 2nd and 3rd jhana is that these jhanas are solidifications of their corresponding nanas (which are very different from each other), whereas the jhanic experiences I describe are unrelated to any nana, and so are basically the same experience with a small alteration in the jhana factors that determine what experience they are.

And, to be clear, the sensation of pleasure in these states can be far beyond anything that can be achieved normally, possibly beyond what can be achieved by drugs (though I obviously don't know that, though the fact that I would contemplate that indicates something), so the differences I'm describing are not related to the strength of the jhana factors, but to something else.

EDIT: I will also clarify that that I used to attain experiences that were similar to what you described, but the experiences I describe here are attained by a different method than what I would have used before.
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(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 11:40 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 12/30/11 11:37 AM

RE: Some descriptions of jhana

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:

1) MCTB's treatment of the jhanas is quite brief and very superficial in comparison to what is possible.
2) A lot of people have come up with their own interpretation of what they call MCTB jhanas and assumed it was the correct one, when it explains that there is a range of presentation of them.
3) There are a lot of people who are attaining things that are quite light but naming them with terms that many would reserve for much heavier and deeper stages, and this is fine as long as everyone is clear about what those terms are actually being used to mean.


These are fair points. Maybe we need to come up with a more precise definition of what the Jhanas are in order to have productive discussions.

To me, the great thing about the MCTB is that it provides a common, well defined, vocabulary for talking about abstract experiences that would otherwise be quite difficult to put into language.

However this vocabulary is co-opted from the Pali cannon which has been interpreted in many different ways over the years. It is difficult to know for sure which interpretation is closest to the original intent.

For instance prior to reading MCTB, I used to practice pure concentration, based on instructions in the book Mindfuness, Bliss and Beyond by Ajahn Brahmvasso. His definition of the 1st Jhana is different from the MCTB eg. it includes the complete shutting off of hearing.

EIS and his interpretations of Jhana's during AF/PCE is another example.

I am not very knowledgeable about the Buddhist texts, and am primarily interested in being able to communicate these things with others to help deepen our practice.

So when I say MCTB 1st Jhana, or MCTB 4th Path or something along those lines, I simply mean these attainments as they are commonly understood on the DhO. By prefixing MCTB I also try to indirectly acknowledge that these may not precisely be the experiences that are described in the Suttas.

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