the possibility of residential, lay, living-and-practice community

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M B, modified 12 Years ago at 1/4/12 8:01 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/4/12 8:00 PM

the possibility of residential, lay, living-and-practice community

Posts: 26 Join Date: 1/1/12 Recent Posts
This is quoted from a recent email from a friend of mine. She's done many months of vipassana retreat, and has a pretty good practice in daily life. She has, she states, zero interest in ordaining as a nun, but I think, like me, feels that in Western Dharma circles the aspect of community has room for development.

"I have been interested for a while in the possibility of residential, lay, Theravadan living-and-practice communities. I don’t know of any. A Zen layperson can live at Green Gulch. But a Theravadan practitioner who wants to live with others in a Dharma-focused life only has the option of ordaining (or visiting temporarily at a monastery/vihara). Why not create intentional lay communities around Theravadan practice?"

It's a little bit- perhaps- oxymoronic to speak about "lay monasticism," because I think the definition of the word "lay" is tricky in that it implies non-monastic. I prefer a non-dual approach. Monks are people too. Luckily, we have traditional support for this concept, because the true sangha is considered to transcend one's societal place (monk or otherwise) and rely totally on one's spiritual nobility, based on the degree to which one is free from greed, hatred and delusion.

Why did the Buddha create a conventional "sangha" (that collection of people he lived with who were meditating, teaching, and living together)?

I know from retreats, and from visiting monasteries, that a beautiful field of safety and peace is created when a group of people lives engaged in cultivating the 8-fold path. The result is a living example of the Buddha's teachings- a place for people to live happily, to learn happiness, and an example to those outside the community to be inspired (or not).

I feel that I know quite a few people, young and old, who would be all over an opportunity to live in a dharma community that wasn't just silent, deep, retreat. I feel I also know many people who, although for some reason (having nothing to do, necessarily, with the quality or depth of their practice) wouldn't choose to live in such a group, would be inspired and supportive of it.

In many ways, I suspect that a sangha would run into all kinds of similar problems as the Buddha's ran into. But, I think that's still worth it, because you're focused on those problems in terms of the 8-fold path. I think that certain people are drawn to Buddhist practice, when they become somehow mature spiritually. They see the four heavenly messengers, as it were, and their life becomes irreversably about acting in harmony with the world as it is. I find, living as a layperson, that something feels almost a little off living for the most part with people whose lives aren't "irreversably about acting in harmony with the world as it is." I can practice with that, of course, and it's even supportive of them to become more interested in spiritual life. However, I've noticed such a great synergy when people come together for practice, interested in deepening their dharma practice. It just feels good to me, because it's deeper, and then a more appropriate relationship can be established with people whose interests in spiritual life are a little more distant.

However, I have no interest, like my friend, in becoming a monk. How would one go about creating a modern, dharma community? What would it look like? How would it start? What purpose would it serve?

Whatever it looked like, I certainly imagine that it would be a great way to have a chance at getting the core teachings of the buddha more in-dialogue with mainstream academia and politics (in some appropriate way), which I feel could be a way to benefit the community at large.

Perhaps these questions are too speculative, too abstract. But, perhaps they trigger some response that could help deepen my thought process around this issue. Either stuff about the historical buddha and sangha, or ideas I haven't thought of for what it might look like. Or, feelings that come up around this issue. This seems like an awesome forum for the discussion of a topic like this, so I'm happy to be able to post.

Again, most of all, around this issue I think I just sense that in the community of practitioners who are quite sincere, and are in a tradition like this, or of going on retreats, there's a clear sense that monasticism isn't for them. And yet there may be aspects of it that are valuable, and underdeveloped, in life outside the monastery. One of those, I think, may be some benefits- both in oneself and in one's community- to actually living and practicing in daily life, together. I feel that this is the ultimate possibility for all beings, but until then, perhaps a micro-version is the next best thing. Perhaps not.

Thanks for reading.
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Steph S, modified 12 Years ago at 1/4/12 10:00 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/4/12 10:00 PM

RE: the possibility of residential, lay, living-and-practice comm

Posts: 672 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Posts
Heya MB,

Good to see you here. This post is interesting and thought provoking. It could be a beneficial, cooperative and thriving environment for practice. As my professional background is in the field of urban planning and construction management, I am often inclined towards thinking in terms of physical environments. Not expecting a full on treatise here, but to get the wheels turning... What do you see as the physical, monetary, and other logistical resources necessary to both create & sustain such a community? What current access is there to those resources, or how could those resources be made available?

Steph
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M B, modified 12 Years ago at 1/4/12 11:13 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/4/12 11:13 PM

RE: the possibility of residential, lay, living-and-practice comm

Posts: 26 Join Date: 1/1/12 Recent Posts
Steph S:
Heya MB,

What do you see as the physical, monetary, and other logistical resources necessary to both create & sustain such a community? What current access is there to those resources, or how could those resources be made available?

Steph


Well, I think that proximity is key, and central to my idea, so some sort of place to live is called for. That takes money, and upkeep. In conversation with a nun, recently, she pointed out how much work was involved in caring for where she lives! I think it's important to have relatively quiet conditions for meditation, and not too many duties.

What I imagine is a community that would be inspiring enough so as to make money in dharma-teaching related ways. It wouldn't have to be dana, although that's nice. Dana or not, I have a sense that it's possible to survive on the gratitude of others. By inspiring through offering the teachings in a skillful way, living peacefully, and also being a place people could visit and practice in for a short period of time, I think this would all lend itself to monetary support. This sounds a lot like a traditional monastery, I realize, but I notice that in exploring this issue, it's about holding the possibility of changes from tradition, whilst also respecting what is tried-and-true.
On the less traditional side, I imagine there are some quite different ideas (just get jobs!?). I don't have any brilliant ones right now, and I'm curious what others' might be, based on any aspect of what's been written in this thread. I'm not wedded to the notion that it's "right livelihood" to be supported financially by others. Perhaps it's arrogance or laziness (or would be perceived as such) to plan that a dedicated practitioner community would survive on donations. That's why I think other options should be discussed. However, if what's being offered is a different way of living, and the path to that, that's a valuable thing! To be supported by the larger community is I think a deep expression of how these teachings and practices are valued by the larger community.

Since I don't have a clear vision yet for what I have in mind, but rather am in the thinking stages about that, I don't have anything more specific to say about specifics.
ed c, modified 12 Years ago at 1/5/12 9:43 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/5/12 9:43 AM

RE: the possibility of residential, lay, living-and-practice comm

Posts: 59 Join Date: 8/9/10 Recent Posts
Hi MB/Steph -
You should probably check this out, if you haven’t already. It seems to cover parts of what you are discussing. They talk in some length about the intricacies of the different models you could use to operate a spiritual community and the implications of those. It appears Vinay Gupta has spent a lot of time studying this.

http://vimeo.com/13650279

Ed
Bjorn Hjelte, modified 11 Years ago at 1/28/13 12:18 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/28/13 12:18 PM

RE: the possibility of residential, lay, living-and-practice comm

Posts: 21 Join Date: 12/27/11 Recent Posts
Hey, I searched and found this thread. I think it's a great idea and I'd be willing to consider living at this kind of "lay monastary". Did the plans evolve into something or did it stop at the planning stage?

Björn
Derek, modified 11 Years ago at 1/28/13 1:37 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/28/13 1:37 PM

RE: the possibility of residential, lay, living-and-practice comm

Posts: 326 Join Date: 7/21/10 Recent Posts
A few years ago, I made a study of how communities get started, drawing on as many case studies as I could find. Factors associated with communities that get off the ground are:

  • charismatic leader
  • initial members know each other personally before the idea of a community is even raised
  • grounded in a common religious or spiritual mindset
  • single-sex, celibate
  • a purpose beyond the benefit of the members themselves


A successful community can get off the ground without absolutely all of these factors, but the more of them you miss out, the less likely your community is to get beyond the planning phase.
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Joshua, the solitary, modified 11 Years ago at 1/28/13 5:33 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/28/13 5:33 PM

RE: the possibility of residential, lay, living-and-practice comm

Posts: 86 Join Date: 9/28/12 Recent Posts
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't understand what you're imagining. The point of becoming a monk is because mundane life can be so gross and non-conducive to meditation, and all development on that axis. You can meditate a lot, and not worry about paying the bills. The food, clothes and other things may be boring, but then you have jhana, which alone transcends these things, even if just for pleasure.
The regular layperson can't imagine jhana or the rest and will partake in idle talk and 'enjoy' food and clothes for instance. So they couldn't stand living in a monastery. Unless you were conditioned for a monastery at an early age without any mystical bent.

Any inbetween would be annoying for serious meditators and stifling for non meditators.

Who even needs community and companionship so bad, as you imply in your beginning post? The sangha monks ought to only talk to clarify some practical points, as this forum is used to do. Even travelling from monastery to monastery in pairs was sometimes frowned upon, for this is like the wordly people's attachment.

I say all this because you insist you and your friend don't want to become monks. But want to live in a community that talks about dharma and meditates. Huh... You say you know many who are put off the idea of retreat just because people are silent and withdrawn! Obviously the burning desire for mediation hasn't begun and no well thought lay community can trigger that!
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Simon T, modified 11 Years ago at 1/28/13 9:38 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/28/13 9:38 PM

RE: the possibility of residential, lay, living-and-practice comm

Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
Joshua ..:
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't understand what you're imagining. The point of becoming a monk is because mundane life can be so gross and non-conducive to meditation, and all development on that axis. You can meditate a lot, and not worry about paying the bills. The food, clothes and other things may be boring, but then you have jhana, which alone transcends these things, even if just for pleasure.
The regular layperson can't imagine jhana or the rest and will partake in idle talk and 'enjoy' food and clothes for instance. So they couldn't stand living in a monastery. Unless you were conditioned for a monastery at an early age without any mystical bent.

Any inbetween would be annoying for serious meditators and stifling for non meditators.

Who even needs community and companionship so bad, as you imply in your beginning post? The sangha monks ought to only talk to clarify some practical points, as this forum is used to do. Even travelling from monastery to monastery in pairs was sometimes frowned upon, for this is like the wordly people's attachment.

I say all this because you insist you and your friend don't want to become monks. But want to live in a community that talks about dharma and meditates. Huh... You say you know many who are put off the idea of retreat just because people are silent and withdrawn! Obviously the burning desire for mediation hasn't begun and no well thought lay community can trigger that!


Jeta groove was probably much more busy and noisy than we imagine. I came to believe that some moral support is necessary for progress and the neurosis a silent retreat can create could be avoided. Most practioners here have a daily jobs and manage to make good progress buy being mindful at work and doing some formal practice at home. Still, to sit alone in your apartment isn't the same as sitting among other people. It's much more motivating to be among other serious meditators. It would surely be nice to live in colocation with other meditators. It doesn't have to be a fancy community.
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M B, modified 11 Years ago at 2/4/13 3:35 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 2/4/13 3:35 PM

RE: the possibility of residential, lay, living-and-practice comm

Posts: 26 Join Date: 1/1/12 Recent Posts
I haven't checked this thread in a while, and I'm glad and interested to see that there are developments, as there have been developments in my own engagement with this topic of practicing in community.

First, thanks for the bulleted list above-- it seems true.

I've been living in different Buddhist monasteries since writing that post, both Zen and Theravaden. I am definitely happier living in community. It's a personal choice. However, I have noticed that certain communities are more or less training monasteries than places for people of a wide range of understanding to live in the same form.

I guess I stick to what inspires me: what I've read about the Buddha's sangha. In the West, by paying for retreats one loses the field of generosity maintained by begging. By only doing retreats but not living together, what's lost is the visible example of the sangha i.e. living happily and simply. On the flipside, most every monastery in Buddhist cultures doesn't have as much time for meditation as a retreat center does, and also tends to become more lavish and lay supporter focused than is helpful for anyone involved.

I'm about to go traveling in Asia, including ordination in the Thai forest tradition, to see what more I can learn along these lines.

I've learned it can be more useful to focus on what's inspiring about an idea than the fears and pitfalls related to it. Lots of people avoid beautiful possibilities because they are afraid. I'm inspired by what I read about the Buddha's sangha, and by how it could be mutually supportive of the non conventional sangha. The key is genuine meditative attainment, as a foundation, and also, I think-- and this goes back to one of the bullet points I appreciated-- less institutionalization and moreso shared interest and appreciation of living together that begins before any official community does.

Even the Buddha's sangha had plenty of problems. But he still had a community. Not everyone was involved with it, but it's a good way to share a passion for practice, to train new monks, and to guide the wider culture in a more harmless direction.

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