A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul - Discussion
A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Coiby Xu, modified 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 9:05 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/18/24 10:07 PM
A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent Posts
TLDL: https://opensanghafoundation.org/newsite/dark-night-of-the-soul/ argues 16 stages of insight is not the teaching of the Buddha and the method is basically is "Dukkha,more Dukkha" instead of "Dukkha, Dukkha Nirodha".
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Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 4 Months ago at 6/19/24 3:43 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/19/24 3:43 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 245 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent PostsBahiya Baby, modified 4 Months ago at 6/19/24 3:58 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/19/24 3:57 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 735 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Those bloody western Buddhists again is it? Somebody shut the gates before any of them get in here.
Dream Walker, modified 4 Months ago at 6/19/24 4:55 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/19/24 4:55 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 1770 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent PostsCoiby Xu
TLDL:
TLDL:
Good job you...
Maybe you might try to ....
~D
Jim Smith, modified 4 Months ago at 6/19/24 5:44 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/19/24 5:44 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 1799 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent PostsCoiby Xu
...
Okay, so in fact, you could say that the entire teachings of the Buddha is a DIY instruction kit of changing. And what are we going to change? The absolute easiest thing there is to change is this thought, because they just go bye-bye-bye. There's just one thought after another. You know how the human mind, one image after another or one verbal thought after another, they just roll on by. So if they're there and so intangible, you'd think it'd be easy enough to change, now wouldn't you? In fact, all you have to do is remember to change it, and the remembering to change it, in fact, has already changed it.
Now you're remembering to change it, that's the thought. And so this is where the Mahasi or the Western Buddhism has forgotten how important the quality of the Noble Path is, in the sense of the right effort to remove the hindrances. Now it's very explicit in the actual Anapanasati Sutra (MN 118) of using the word "gladdening the mind." Now the interesting part about it is that it's not talking about gladdening the mind in the sense of just the thoughts, because that's more the content of the mind. But rather, changing the state of mind. And when you change the state of mind, it will change the thoughts. And quite often, the reverse is true too.
You change the thoughts you're having, and it'll change your state of mind. For instance, "Oh, I hate this" is in one kind of state of mind. And then the next word would be, "Oh, never mind," and now my state has changed. And so, the whole point here is by actually making the change from unwholesome into wholesome actually means we're going to actually put a positive spin on things. Another way of thinking about it is that we're no longer going to be judgmental or seeing what's right and what's wrong, or what we would mean by a critical mind. And go back to the original job of mommy. Mommy gets really critical with a five-year-old, but her original job was to be nurturing. And this is what we need to do, is we need to start nurturing ourselves, letting ourselves be okay the way that we are. Everything is all right right here, right now, warts and all. And we don't have to sit there and enumerate the warts, which they want you to do in the Mahasi method.
Just say you're already okay, forget about it. Let the past go and be here now with some really wholesome thoughts and some really wholesome feelings about what's happening right here, right now. Now, that's the actual Noble Path and Four Noble Truths, and that we can start on that as soon as we recognize, "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out.
So here's a little example of this. Imagine that you're out on the road, and along down the way there, you see a big, big truck coming. It may be even blowing its horn, telling you, "Here he comes!" Now, the Mahasi method is to stand there and take it like a man, Mr. Popeye style, with, you know, Popeye the Sailor Man, and we just stand there and we just stop that truck, right? And it runs right over us.
...
...
Okay, so in fact, you could say that the entire teachings of the Buddha is a DIY instruction kit of changing. And what are we going to change? The absolute easiest thing there is to change is this thought, because they just go bye-bye-bye. There's just one thought after another. You know how the human mind, one image after another or one verbal thought after another, they just roll on by. So if they're there and so intangible, you'd think it'd be easy enough to change, now wouldn't you? In fact, all you have to do is remember to change it, and the remembering to change it, in fact, has already changed it.
Now you're remembering to change it, that's the thought. And so this is where the Mahasi or the Western Buddhism has forgotten how important the quality of the Noble Path is, in the sense of the right effort to remove the hindrances. Now it's very explicit in the actual Anapanasati Sutra (MN 118) of using the word "gladdening the mind." Now the interesting part about it is that it's not talking about gladdening the mind in the sense of just the thoughts, because that's more the content of the mind. But rather, changing the state of mind. And when you change the state of mind, it will change the thoughts. And quite often, the reverse is true too.
You change the thoughts you're having, and it'll change your state of mind. For instance, "Oh, I hate this" is in one kind of state of mind. And then the next word would be, "Oh, never mind," and now my state has changed. And so, the whole point here is by actually making the change from unwholesome into wholesome actually means we're going to actually put a positive spin on things. Another way of thinking about it is that we're no longer going to be judgmental or seeing what's right and what's wrong, or what we would mean by a critical mind. And go back to the original job of mommy. Mommy gets really critical with a five-year-old, but her original job was to be nurturing. And this is what we need to do, is we need to start nurturing ourselves, letting ourselves be okay the way that we are. Everything is all right right here, right now, warts and all. And we don't have to sit there and enumerate the warts, which they want you to do in the Mahasi method.
Just say you're already okay, forget about it. Let the past go and be here now with some really wholesome thoughts and some really wholesome feelings about what's happening right here, right now. Now, that's the actual Noble Path and Four Noble Truths, and that we can start on that as soon as we recognize, "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out.
So here's a little example of this. Imagine that you're out on the road, and along down the way there, you see a big, big truck coming. It may be even blowing its horn, telling you, "Here he comes!" Now, the Mahasi method is to stand there and take it like a man, Mr. Popeye style, with, you know, Popeye the Sailor Man, and we just stand there and we just stop that truck, right? And it runs right over us.
...
Is there somewhere on-line I could read more about how to do this? I would like to see some examples of how to replace an unwholesome thought with a wholesome thought.
Thanks
Martin, modified 4 Months ago at 6/19/24 11:05 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/19/24 11:05 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 1024 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent PostsCoiby Xu, modified 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 8:56 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 8:56 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent PostsMatt Jon Rousseau
You can see the dark night everywhere in the Buddha's biography before enlightenment
You can see the dark night everywhere in the Buddha's biography before enlightenment
Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 9:10 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 9:10 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 5439 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I've removed the lengthy copied and pasted content originally contained in the original post because it may be copyrighted and we don't allow entire copyrighted pieces to be posted to DhO. There is a link, which I edited to be clickable, to the original material in the original post above. Please use that link.
Thanks,
Chris M
DhO Moderator
Thanks,
Chris M
DhO Moderator
Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 4:12 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 4:12 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 3067 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent PostsPapa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 4:20 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 4:20 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 3067 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
" "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out. "
Oh jeez! This is a terrific recipe for HOW TO GET MORE DUKKHA. But its ok This too can lead the way, the Dukkha way towards liberation. The liberation that is not by forcing anything aside or throwing out, but by thisness being more of a 4 Brahmavihharas based amidst the unfolding karmic stuff of this human life we live.
Dukkha is a result of any one "thing" believed to be more important, more I, more mine, more me, more other, more better or worse, more inside or more outside, etc ... basically much more better than all the myriad stuff co-arising with "it" but the blind belief can not see this hence yes, you get it now don't ya Dukkha commeth to be upon the sense of it happening to me (sense of ownership).
I think this DhO place might do you good my friend Best wishes and may you be free from dukkha, may you awaken, may you be truly happy.
Oh jeez! This is a terrific recipe for HOW TO GET MORE DUKKHA. But its ok This too can lead the way, the Dukkha way towards liberation. The liberation that is not by forcing anything aside or throwing out, but by thisness being more of a 4 Brahmavihharas based amidst the unfolding karmic stuff of this human life we live.
Dukkha is a result of any one "thing" believed to be more important, more I, more mine, more me, more other, more better or worse, more inside or more outside, etc ... basically much more better than all the myriad stuff co-arising with "it" but the blind belief can not see this hence yes, you get it now don't ya Dukkha commeth to be upon the sense of it happening to me (sense of ownership).
I think this DhO place might do you good my friend Best wishes and may you be free from dukkha, may you awaken, may you be truly happy.
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 4:27 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 4:27 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 245 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent PostsCoiby Xu
Can you list some references about the dark night as I can't find related texts in MN 36: Maha-Saccaka Sutta?
Matt Jon Rousseau
You can see the dark night everywhere in the Buddha's biography before enlightenment
You can see the dark night everywhere in the Buddha's biography before enlightenment
Martin, modified 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 7:36 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 7:36 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 1024 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
It's good to keep in mind that those were not unusual things to do at the time. What was unusual was finding another way to do things, a middle way, which was good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end. I agree that emotional turmoil is pretty common on spiritual paths but I don't see anything to suggest that the Buddha taught others to expect emotional turmoil when they started with his system.
That does not mean that the POI, including dark night, is not an effective approach. There are numerous effective approaches that were developed after the Buddha's time.
That does not mean that the POI, including dark night, is not an effective approach. There are numerous effective approaches that were developed after the Buddha's time.
Coiby Xu, modified 4 Months ago at 6/22/24 6:38 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 8:13 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent PostsPapa Che Dusko
" "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out. "
Oh jeez! This is a terrific recipe for HOW TO GET MORE DUKKHA. But its ok This too can lead the way, the Dukkha way towards liberation. The liberation that is not by forcing anything aside or throwing out, but by thisness being more of a 4 Brahmavihharas based amidst the unfolding karmic stuff of this human life we live.
" "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out. "
Oh jeez! This is a terrific recipe for HOW TO GET MORE DUKKHA. But its ok This too can lead the way, the Dukkha way towards liberation. The liberation that is not by forcing anything aside or throwing out, but by thisness being more of a 4 Brahmavihharas based amidst the unfolding karmic stuff of this human life we live.
And then there is the Buddha's way, the Anapanasati way, and that is just step aside, just get out of your own way, just move an inch or two and let it go, rushing right on by. We don't have to get hit, we don't have to stand in our own way. So this is the major change in the technique.
Dukkha is a result of any one "thing" believed to be more important, more I, more mine, more me, more other, more better or worse, more inside or more outside, etc ... basically much more better than all the myriad stuff co-arising with "it" but the blind belief can not see this hence yes, you get it now don't ya Dukkha commeth to be upon the sense of it happening to me (sense of ownership).
I think this DhO place might do you good my friend Best wishes and may you be free from dukkha, may you awaken, may you be truly happy.
To clarify, I'm almost confident the Mahasi method will help me find out how suffering is created and what's the psychological structure of the self. Acutally, mainly inspired by MTCB and two articles (BUDDHIST PHENOMENOLOGY, Mysticism and beyond, Buddhist phenomenology, part II), I did two month-long Mahasi retreats on 2016 and 2017 in Burma and had consistent daily practice. This month I did a 10-day Mahasi retreat in China again. During these retreats, I burst into tears twice and the accompanying thought is do humans really have to go through the enomous pain and suffereing in order to get "libereated". If there is an easier path, why bother a harder path? During this month's 10-day retreat, the teacher says the pain of the ankle is nothing compared with the one felt during stage 6-8 i.e. when one really understand what dukkha means and I'm surprised to hear one practitioner even the pain of the ankle is twice as much as the pain during labor.
On Feb 2019, I began to practice under the guidance of Dhammarato who have been explicitly emphasizing joy from the beginning which I thought was missing in my meditation history and is in the lineage of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. The biggest lesson I learnt from him when I realized I was lost in thought or a misery or a hindrance, I would congratulate myself by saying "Aha, I caught you!" and "never mind; start again". I also went to Thailand to do two meditaion retreats encouraged by Dhammarato. But I don't think I've verified the teachings offered from Dhammarato.
This year in order to thank Dhammarato's past generous guidance to me, I helped him improve https://opensanghafoundation.org/. Then I stumbled upon the shared critique (which btw I guess is written by Dhammarato) and realized that's the summary of what Dhammarato tried to teach me in 2019. I shared the critique in order to know dark night is really necessary. I think the critique recommends practicing Anapanasati to develop jhanas instead. According to the meditation teacher of this month's retreat, jhanas could suppress hindrances but developing jhanas first could be a much harder path. He compared developing jhanas to building a bridge to cross a river and insight meditation to swimming across the river. But I don't have enough experience which path is better. So any suggestion will be welcome!
Coiby Xu, modified 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 8:25 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 8:23 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent PostsMatt Jon Rousseau
The Buddha left his home as a prince. Left his wife and baby because he felt suffering in everything. Then he became an ascetic, al.ost starved himself to death. If that doesn't sound like spiritual turmoil, what does? You see similar things with Christian monks all throughout history. I gather there is something to it. IS IT nessisary? I don't know .
Coiby Xu
Can you list some references about the dark night as I can't find related texts in MN 36: Maha-Saccaka Sutta?
Matt Jon Rousseau
You can see the dark night everywhere in the Buddha's biography before enlightenment
You can see the dark night everywhere in the Buddha's biography before enlightenment
Pepe ·, modified 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 10:22 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/21/24 10:22 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 744 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Coiby Xu:
There are 7 Factors of Awakening, and one of them is Rapture, which balance the equation between those more vipassana-like with those more samatha-like, check Daniel Ingram's Framework. Then, below you'll find tips on how to work with Dukkha.
There are 7 Factors of Awakening, and one of them is Rapture, which balance the equation between those more vipassana-like with those more samatha-like, check Daniel Ingram's Framework. Then, below you'll find tips on how to work with Dukkha.
Coiby Xu, modified 4 Months ago at 6/22/24 6:55 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/22/24 6:26 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent PostsJim Smith
Is there somewhere on-line I could read more about how to do this? I would like to see some examples of how to replace an unwholesome thought with a wholesome thought.
Thank
Coiby Xu
...
Okay, so in fact, you could say that the entire teachings of the Buddha is a DIY instruction kit of changing. And what are we going to change? The absolute easiest thing there is to change is this thought, because they just go bye-bye-bye. There's just one thought after another. You know how the human mind, one image after another or one verbal thought after another, they just roll on by. So if they're there and so intangible, you'd think it'd be easy enough to change, now wouldn't you? In fact, all you have to do is remember to change it, and the remembering to change it, in fact, has already changed it.
Now you're remembering to change it, that's the thought. And so this is where the Mahasi or the Western Buddhism has forgotten how important the quality of the Noble Path is, in the sense of the right effort to remove the hindrances. Now it's very explicit in the actual Anapanasati Sutra (MN 118) of using the word "gladdening the mind." Now the interesting part about it is that it's not talking about gladdening the mind in the sense of just the thoughts, because that's more the content of the mind. But rather, changing the state of mind. And when you change the state of mind, it will change the thoughts. And quite often, the reverse is true too.
You change the thoughts you're having, and it'll change your state of mind. For instance, "Oh, I hate this" is in one kind of state of mind. And then the next word would be, "Oh, never mind," and now my state has changed. And so, the whole point here is by actually making the change from unwholesome into wholesome actually means we're going to actually put a positive spin on things. Another way of thinking about it is that we're no longer going to be judgmental or seeing what's right and what's wrong, or what we would mean by a critical mind. And go back to the original job of mommy. Mommy gets really critical with a five-year-old, but her original job was to be nurturing. And this is what we need to do, is we need to start nurturing ourselves, letting ourselves be okay the way that we are. Everything is all right right here, right now, warts and all. And we don't have to sit there and enumerate the warts, which they want you to do in the Mahasi method.
Just say you're already okay, forget about it. Let the past go and be here now with some really wholesome thoughts and some really wholesome feelings about what's happening right here, right now. Now, that's the actual Noble Path and Four Noble Truths, and that we can start on that as soon as we recognize, "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out.
So here's a little example of this. Imagine that you're out on the road, and along down the way there, you see a big, big truck coming. It may be even blowing its horn, telling you, "Here he comes!" Now, the Mahasi method is to stand there and take it like a man, Mr. Popeye style, with, you know, Popeye the Sailor Man, and we just stand there and we just stop that truck, right? And it runs right over us.
...
...
Okay, so in fact, you could say that the entire teachings of the Buddha is a DIY instruction kit of changing. And what are we going to change? The absolute easiest thing there is to change is this thought, because they just go bye-bye-bye. There's just one thought after another. You know how the human mind, one image after another or one verbal thought after another, they just roll on by. So if they're there and so intangible, you'd think it'd be easy enough to change, now wouldn't you? In fact, all you have to do is remember to change it, and the remembering to change it, in fact, has already changed it.
Now you're remembering to change it, that's the thought. And so this is where the Mahasi or the Western Buddhism has forgotten how important the quality of the Noble Path is, in the sense of the right effort to remove the hindrances. Now it's very explicit in the actual Anapanasati Sutra (MN 118) of using the word "gladdening the mind." Now the interesting part about it is that it's not talking about gladdening the mind in the sense of just the thoughts, because that's more the content of the mind. But rather, changing the state of mind. And when you change the state of mind, it will change the thoughts. And quite often, the reverse is true too.
You change the thoughts you're having, and it'll change your state of mind. For instance, "Oh, I hate this" is in one kind of state of mind. And then the next word would be, "Oh, never mind," and now my state has changed. And so, the whole point here is by actually making the change from unwholesome into wholesome actually means we're going to actually put a positive spin on things. Another way of thinking about it is that we're no longer going to be judgmental or seeing what's right and what's wrong, or what we would mean by a critical mind. And go back to the original job of mommy. Mommy gets really critical with a five-year-old, but her original job was to be nurturing. And this is what we need to do, is we need to start nurturing ourselves, letting ourselves be okay the way that we are. Everything is all right right here, right now, warts and all. And we don't have to sit there and enumerate the warts, which they want you to do in the Mahasi method.
Just say you're already okay, forget about it. Let the past go and be here now with some really wholesome thoughts and some really wholesome feelings about what's happening right here, right now. Now, that's the actual Noble Path and Four Noble Truths, and that we can start on that as soon as we recognize, "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out.
So here's a little example of this. Imagine that you're out on the road, and along down the way there, you see a big, big truck coming. It may be even blowing its horn, telling you, "Here he comes!" Now, the Mahasi method is to stand there and take it like a man, Mr. Popeye style, with, you know, Popeye the Sailor Man, and we just stand there and we just stop that truck, right? And it runs right over us.
...
Is there somewhere on-line I could read more about how to do this? I would like to see some examples of how to replace an unwholesome thought with a wholesome thought.
Thank
As mentioned by Martin, You can visit Dhammarato's youtube channel. If you prefers to read the text, you can visit Archive of Dhammarato's Dhamma Talks and recent talks like Awakening From the Victim Mindset - Sangha US 05-10-2024 (the summary) or You Don't Have to Fix The World Sangha UK #210 04.14.24 (the summary) talk a lot by replacing unwholehome thoughts with wholesome ones.
Coiby Xu, modified 4 Months ago at 6/22/24 6:34 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/22/24 6:34 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent PostsPepe · Coiby Xu: There are 7 Factors of Awakening, and one of them is Rapture, which balance the equation between those more vipassana-like with those more samatha-like, check Daniel Ingram's Framework. Then, below you'll find tips on how to work with Dukkha.
Hi Pepe, thank you for pointing me to Daniel Ingram's Framework and the tips! Yes, loving-kindness is exactly what I plan to establish as a daily practice. I will also give a try on the tips on how to work with Dukkha.
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 6/22/24 7:33 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/22/24 7:33 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 2746 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
I found myself agreeing with most of the talk. I think the dark night of the soul thing a christian addition to buddhism. Hell, the devil, brimstone and fire, the usual horrors of the cruel western mind imposed on a middle way designed to avoid all that. Mara was a friend of the buddha and the hell realm a regular part of life. Not some rite of passage,some obstacle to be defeated or mastered. Dukkha is part of all things and will not be superseded. It is ego transcendence that is at stake, not ego satisfaction. If you didn't know sour, you wouldn't know sweet.
Dwelling on one's own well-earned depression as a major step forward in spiritual mastery is a western vanity. Rather like white people singing the blues they really really don't understand. Western buddhists by and large have nothing to complain about except their own deficiencies. Boo-hoo.
And the solution is indeed the practice of compassion.
Dwelling on one's own well-earned depression as a major step forward in spiritual mastery is a western vanity. Rather like white people singing the blues they really really don't understand. Western buddhists by and large have nothing to complain about except their own deficiencies. Boo-hoo.
And the solution is indeed the practice of compassion.
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 6/22/24 7:39 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/22/24 7:39 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 2746 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry
I found myself agreeing with most of the talk. I think the dark night of the soul thing a christian addition to buddhism. Hell, the devil, brimstone and fire, the usual horrors of the cruel western mind imposed on a middle way designed to avoid all that. Mara was a friend of the buddha and the hell realm a regular part of life. Not some rite of passage,some obstacle to be defeated or mastered. Dukkha is part of all things and will not be superseded. It is ego transcendence that is at stake, not ego satisfaction. If you didn't know sour, you wouldn't know sweet.
Dwelling on one's own well-earned depression as a major step forward in spiritual mastery is a western vanity. Rather like white people singing the blues they really really don't understand. Western buddhists by and large have nothing to complain about except their own deficiencies. Boo-hoo.
And the solution is indeed the practice of compassion.
I found myself agreeing with most of the talk. I think the dark night of the soul thing a christian addition to buddhism. Hell, the devil, brimstone and fire, the usual horrors of the cruel western mind imposed on a middle way designed to avoid all that. Mara was a friend of the buddha and the hell realm a regular part of life. Not some rite of passage,some obstacle to be defeated or mastered. Dukkha is part of all things and will not be superseded. It is ego transcendence that is at stake, not ego satisfaction. If you didn't know sour, you wouldn't know sweet.
Dwelling on one's own well-earned depression as a major step forward in spiritual mastery is a western vanity. Rather like white people singing the blues they really really don't understand. Western buddhists by and large have nothing to complain about except their own deficiencies. Boo-hoo.
And the solution is indeed the practice of compassion.
from the tao te ching trans feng
Thirteen
Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition.
What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"?
Accept being unimportant.
Do not be concerned with loss or gain.
This is called "accepting disgrace willingly."
What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"?
Misfortune comes from having a body.
Without a body, how could there be misfortune?
Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things.
Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things.
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 4 Months ago at 6/23/24 3:33 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/23/24 3:33 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 245 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Poststerry:
terry I found myself agreeing with most of the talk. I think the dark night of the soul thing a christian addition to buddhism. Hell, the devil, brimstone and fire, the usual horrors of the cruel western mind imposed on a middle way designed to avoid all that. Mara was a friend of the buddha and the hell realm a regular part of life. Not some rite of passage,some obstacle to be defeated or mastered. Dukkha is part of all things and will not be superseded. It is ego transcendence that is at stake, not ego satisfaction. If you didn't know sour, you wouldn't know sweet. Dwelling on one's own well-earned depression as a major step forward in spiritual mastery is a western vanity. Rather like white people singing the blues they really really don't understand. Western buddhists by and large have nothing to complain about except their own deficiencies. Boo-hoo. And the solution is indeed the practice of compassion.
Thats beautiful
Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago at 6/23/24 6:39 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/23/24 6:39 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 3067 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent PostsMatt Jon Rousseau, modified 4 Months ago at 6/23/24 7:09 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/23/24 7:09 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 245 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
Anything one tries to avoid while doing vipassana will stare them in the face at some point . Bet your ass
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 6/24/24 4:48 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/24/24 4:48 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 2746 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsMatt Jon Rousseau
Thats beautiful
terry from the tao te ching trans feng Thirteen Accept disgrace willingly. Accept misfortune as the human condition. What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"? Accept being unimportant. Do not be concerned with loss or gain. This is called "accepting disgrace willingly." What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"? Misfortune comes from having a body. Without a body, how could there be misfortune? Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things. Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things.
terry I found myself agreeing with most of the talk. I think the dark night of the soul thing a christian addition to buddhism. Hell, the devil, brimstone and fire, the usual horrors of the cruel western mind imposed on a middle way designed to avoid all that. Mara was a friend of the buddha and the hell realm a regular part of life. Not some rite of passage,some obstacle to be defeated or mastered. Dukkha is part of all things and will not be superseded. It is ego transcendence that is at stake, not ego satisfaction. If you didn't know sour, you wouldn't know sweet. Dwelling on one's own well-earned depression as a major step forward in spiritual mastery is a western vanity. Rather like white people singing the blues they really really don't understand. Western buddhists by and large have nothing to complain about except their own deficiencies. Boo-hoo. And the solution is indeed the practice of compassion.
Thats beautiful
Why thank you, my friend.
I think the buddha's "turmoil" was similar to that of the overpriveleged western buddhist, though not a dark night. He was pampered and encouraged to think himself worthy of preference. One can understand the anguish of a slave owner's son in an oppressive society without pity or even much sympathy. The buddha "earned merits" by repudiating his priveleged existence, and atoning for it through austerities. Buddhists are wise to follow his example.
The real problem of the world is inequality, and it is the privileged who aren't willing to give up their status, indeed seek to add to it. My daughter in law conplained the other day about the price of milk, and blamed recent increases in the minimum wage. I told her we needed a communist revolution, one world government and ai replacing "the market" in distribution of goods.
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 6/24/24 4:54 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/24/24 4:54 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 2746 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsPapa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago at 6/24/24 8:13 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/24/24 8:13 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 3067 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Poststerry:
Papa Che Dusko Don't encourage it, Merry!
Yeah I do! Mordor Nana arises and the Dark Night of the Soul gets ignited, burning bright and true in the darkness of emptiness! Shinglings spark here and there showing off their demonic teeth to the seeker who is falling down the labyrinths of forgiveness just to be reborn again.
- by papaji Che 2024 BC
Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago at 6/24/24 8:14 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 6/24/24 8:14 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 3067 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent PostsJim Smith, modified 3 Months ago at 7/18/24 4:52 PM
Created 3 Months ago at 7/18/24 4:52 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul
Posts: 1799 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
https://opensanghafoundation.org/newsite/dark-night-of-the-soul/
https://www.dailybuddhism.com/archives/903
You change the thoughts you're having, and it'll change your state of mind. For instance, "Oh, I hate this" is in one kind of state of mind. And then the next word would be, "Oh, never mind," and now my state has changed. And so, the whole point here is by actually making the change from unwholesome into wholesome actually means we're going to actually put a positive spin on things. Another way of thinking about it is that we're no longer going to be judgmental or seeing what's right and what's wrong, or what we would mean by a critical mind. And go back to the original job of mommy. Mommy gets really critical with a five-year-old, but her original job was to be nurturing. And this is what we need to do, is we need to start nurturing ourselves, letting ourselves be okay the way that we are. Everything is all right right here, right now, warts and all. And we don't have to sit there and enumerate the warts, which they want you to do in the Mahasi method.
Just say you're already okay, forget about it. Let the past go and be here now with some really wholesome thoughts and some really wholesome feelings about what's happening right here, right now. Now, that's the actual Noble Path and Four Noble Truths, and that we can start on that as soon as we recognize, "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out.
Just say you're already okay, forget about it. Let the past go and be here now with some really wholesome thoughts and some really wholesome feelings about what's happening right here, right now. Now, that's the actual Noble Path and Four Noble Truths, and that we can start on that as soon as we recognize, "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out.
https://www.dailybuddhism.com/archives/903
A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.
Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted!
Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted!