I've lurked here for a while, and until very recently a lot of this has been very difficult to digest.

So, I went on a 3 day retreat, coming back this Monday. Everything seemed very clear and flowing afterwards, but felt I should wait at least a couple of days before writing on here. I used noting quite consistently for the first time over the weekend and really got a taste of how and why this is all supposed to work.

Read through a couple of other threads on here related to A&P which sound quite familiar, and am starting to understand what all this is about. Mainly:

• Impermanence. It's becoming really quite visible, vision is starting to consist more of "particles". Emotions are especially "tingly" and almost always fun.
• A few moments where a sense of "control" or "self" seems to waver in and out.
• Confidence/Arrogance. It's almost hard to see where the line is being crossed at times.

Various other warm, loving, sexual and "wave" sensations going over me. Pretty good fun, but trying not to get too involved, or at least, trying to investigate the 3 C's as best as possible. This feels a lot like a time I took Shrooms. Buzzing sensations, feeling of "everything is going to be OK, always", ha..

Just a few questions.
From here, how realistic is it to attain stream entry without another retreat? I have a fair amount of free time on my hands with a 5-9 that isn't particularly stressful, so plenty of noting opportunities. I usually meditate just under 2 hours a day.

Also, is getting a concentration game solid, before ploughing forward into the Dark Night important? Obviously I shouldn't over think the maps or have too much faith in things untraversed, but part of me thinks this is could be a useful consideration if it's that inevitable.

Hi John. You'll likely find it easier to diagnose the A&P in retrospect. When it all turns a tad less lovely in the Dark Night you'll know

Re retreats: If you have the time, then get yourself on a longer course ASAP! You'll make good progress Im sure.

Good luck

Hey John,


Aye, sounds A&P related to me.


Very realistic, a retreat would be a great opportunity to really go at it, practice hard and increase the likelihood of it happening but if you're not able to then that's fine too. It's a matter of getting the momentum going, solid and consistent practice done as much as you possibly can will get you there with or without a retreat. If you're using noting then it's a case of seeing as much as possible of the thing, observing the 3C's as they occur in every sensation, as accurately and precisely as you possibly can. Sharpen your technique and really go for it with the intent of landing Path, but not in such a way that the desire for it become a problematic.


Excellent, use it to your advantage. Even doing a mini home retreat for an entire day, just the whole day spent sitting with breaks for food and suchlike, will allow you to make progress. Have you tried bringing your noting into everyday stuff too? It's worth trying to note as constantly as you can, whether it's at work, taking a dump or watching the t.v., note as if you were sitting and stay with it. There will be times when you forget to do it but it's fine, just do it whenever you remember as it will become almost habitual after a while. A lot of my practice was done in this way due to time constraints and not being able to go on retreats so I can vouch for it's effectiveness.


It's not essential to have strong concentration skills, but it certainly helps and is worth learning for the skills and experience it provides. Remember, the Buddha taught the three trainings; morality, concentration, and insight so don't neglect one in favour of the other.

The maps can be used skilfully, just don't, like I have in the past, let them become the be all and end all. They're useful, very useful but don't cling to them because "the map is not the territory it describes". Keep that phrase in mind and you'll be fine.

A'ra best.

Hi John,

It's hard to tell for sure, but you could well be into A&P territory.

I remember lots of physical buzzing and druggish/ sexual 'rushes', all the time, whether meditating or not during my first A&P. Impermanence was probably the main characteristic I was noticing; not-self more towards the end.

When I drop into the state, that is exactly how it feels: like falling through a trap door. Ever experience anything like that? The first time it happened for me I experienced an instant erection! That was a nice surprise! At the very bottom, phenomena appear very slowly and clearly, then I start to get a sensation of energy rising up the spine that shoots through the head and blows my mind! That's the A&P event, and to be honest, the first one was the biggest meditation experience for me so far, beating paths and jhanas.

Reading other descriptions, it is quite obvious the experience can manifest in many different ways.

As to working on concentration before entering the DN; that's exactly how I played it, mainly because the descriptions I'd read scared the crap out of me. It's impossible to say how much that helped, but I did burn through the DN very fast, and certainly bad concentration wont help you!

I've never been on retreat as I have zero free time but it can only be a good thing.

One last thing: remember once you cross the A&P there is no going back! If you have the diligence and spare time, stream entry will happen sooner or later, but sooner is better! You have to really go for it.

Good luck, keep us posted.

Wow, thanks for the replies. Can't say how encouraging it is to have people behind me on this.

It's quite tricky to find the balance between persistence and restlessness with noting technique. I did a load of chores today and tried as best I could to note as I went along, but the perfectionist side of me really screws things up so for the most part I tried my best to put my attention into bodily movements and investigating the restlessness feelings/sensations. Will keep at it, just a case of getting over myself when it's a bit trickier.

Re: Concentration. In case it's relevant, I'm still trying to figure out Access Concentration and 1st Jhana. I'm pretty sure I've hit the start of 1st Jhana once, but couldn't say for sure. I get a lot of "hard" feelings in the face (pulling/groping) when I get concentrated, not sure how to approach them other than to investigate mindfully.

@Tommy
Thanks for the detailed reply. I think I'll definitely try a few home retreats, keep the momentum going. Definitely doable! Also, I read through a load of "D Z"'s thread to stream entry, a lot of helpful stuff you said there!

@Dodge E Knees
The "trap door" thing is exactly what I was talking about in regards to no-self. A few moments when I'd be mid-conversation or something, get a rapture while waving my arm about, or something, and it felt as if that motion disappeared entirely from regular perception. Hard to explain!

I laughed reading, and then again re-reading that erection experience. Hilarious!


Again, cheers for reading/helping. I'll update this with anything I feel could be relevant.

If you want to develop samatha it might be worthwhile treating it as a separate discipline for a bit. Have a short samatha session before each stint of vipassana.

It's probably worth saying that people usually refer to it as 'concentration', and although keeping the mind trained on an object is important, so is the 'tranquility' aspect. If you are in A&P there should be lots of pleasant sensations? Calm yourself with the breath, then try absorbing into the pleasantness without manipulating it. Relax. Gently go back to it when you realise you've been distracted.




Yeah it was pretty funny..in fact that is the real reason I continue to meditate, but unfortunately so far it was a one-off! Maybe I should get into that tantric stuff, I am obviously a natural!

Cool. I've got into some pretty deep states since that advice, also made it easier to note afterwards.. Apparently I'd forgotten to relax! (No Jhanas yet)

I think I hit my 'event', but will need another day or two to know. No boners, unfortunatley, but there was a distinct 'moment' where something on TV grabbed me, and pulled my entire being towards it, then I bounced back.. It was literally way less than a second, mostly shocking/weird. Could that be it? I was pretty unphased! Reflecting on today, there hasn't been much 'fun' going on. My evening sit was a bit like being sprinkled with cold dust particles or something. Nothing pleasant the entire way. It wasn't really 'bad', just an absence of 'good'...

Noted intensely today. Regarding technique, I did the following thing in the car to try and train it:
-Count "1", bring my attention into the entirety of my thumb
-Count "2", switch my attention to my first finger, until I can perceive it fully
-Count "3", middle finger
-Count "1", thumb
-Count "2"
-"Wandering"

And keep going until I have to respond at the wheel... sometimes "intention to turn", "turning". But that's a tad trickier..
Also did it with 'left leg', 'right leg', trying to get as much clarity as possible, before swapping.

The A&P isn't always some spectacular thing, it can be quite understated but still clear enough to unsettle you and make you to realize that something happened. The description of your sit sounds like Dissolution to me but either way, all this stuff becomes clearer with more practice so see how things pan out over the next week or so.

It might be worth keeping the finger noting thing for when you're sitting, something I've heard a lot of people say they do while driving is "dwelling in the Witness" which can be tuned into by asking "who am I?". It's what Kenneth Folk calls a "2nd gear" practice and it can be really useful for getting a sense of what's observing this experience.


That's the stuff, get into the subtle intentions and the automatic responses, see how they work and investigate them.

Ah, nice. I'll get acquainted! Have done something like that in the past for fun, had no idea it was a form of practice!

Filled my head with the MCTB Impermeance, Suffering, No-Self chapters last night, helped refocus a lot. "Bare sensations".

Today was interesting. The whole morning had a very "every sensation is dull/unsatisfactory" tone to it, though I almost definitely added weight to that with knowledge of what the DN is.. I don't really know how to overcome semi-scripting these things.

The whole day was quite off, attention seemed okay, taste was either boring or... disgusting.

I usually tune into finger sensations for a 5-10 seconds or so every so often at my desk, when something's loading, just to keep the ball rolling. At one point the colour in my vision turned from "dull, dirty" to "clear, normal" and I suddenly felt pretty good. Again, aware I might be scripting, but no way to get around that really.

Right at the end of the day, I put my attention directly on the raw sensations in my fingers (high frequency buzzing/pulsing/fizzing) and the entire background of my perception starting shaking violently. I was pretty stoked about that, but had to stop because... well... I don't really fancy some obtuse spiritual "moment" in front of my colleagues.

Is it purely delusional to think I might be in Equanimity already? Everywhere I look is "fizzing" in a fairly pleasant/cool manner. Especially my cheeks.

I figure there's three options:
1) Dropped from A&P to 3 Char's, back to A&P. Though, there's no "exciting" feelings (though, was excited at the prospect of being out of the DN already).
2) Still in the DN, just in a pretty bearable patch, maybe Dissolution still.
3) Equanimity

Just sat for an hour. I think I over focused and entered a Jhana... brought my awareness quite heavily into everything I could in the body, then, after really focusing it all seemed to squeeze into a wider area of perception and everything became very dark and calm.

Also, frequent "No self" moments, where things just sort of go "out of sync", but I'm always left thinking "cool... now what?" until it's back to normal.

I probably just need to keep probing around, stop thinking.

Continuing this over at "Stream Entry"