SE without a fruition?

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Jon T, modified 9 Years ago.

SE without a fruition?

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/30/10 Recent Posts
Is it possible to get SE without a frutition? Is it possible to have a fruition and not know it? Isn't SE about a profound
insight(s)? If so then why all the various diagnoses on whether this or that was SE without extensively discussing the
insight(s)?

jon
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: SE without a fruition?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Jon T:
Is it possible to get SE without a frutition? Is it possible to have a fruition and not know it? Isn't SE about a profound
insight(s)? If so then why all the various diagnoses on whether this or that was SE without extensively discussing the
insight(s)?

jon


Here is an interesting conversation related to your query, Jon, by culadasa and friends.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jhana_insight/message/2978
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Jon T, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: SE without a fruition?

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/30/10 Recent Posts
Here is an interesting conversation related to your query, Jon, by culadasa and friends.


i began reading and an intense aversion overcame. I then attempted to not let the aversion prevent an activity i otherwise intended to execute. But i still wanted to observe the aversion. So in observing the aversion while reading the subject matter, I started to laugh. I don't know if i was laughing at myself or at the erudite jargon of a correspondence that didn't impart any clear raison d'etre. But just to sum up my current understanding of mr culadasa's pov is that he doesn't believe frution is necessary for SE.

Culadasa said
I'd just like to make one point clear. We are discussing the magga-phala event, not Stream Entry. I bring this up because Stream Entry identifies a permanent change in a person. I have been finding that some people undergo that permanent change without having had a memorable magga-phala experience. Perhaps they've had it but don't remember it, but they can't even point to any particular day or week when the change happened, when they became different from what they once were. Furthermore, I have encountered people who describe what sounds like magga-phala, and who have had a teacher verify it as such, but who fail to manifest the characteristics of a Stream Entrant as described in the Suttas and commentaries.




(upon further reflection, it no longer seems odd that a person who is, probably, extremely skilled at attaining fruition is also extremely interested in reflecting on the nature of said fruition.)
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: SE without a fruition?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Jon T:



(upon further reflection, it no longer seems odd that a person who is, probably, extremely skilled at attaining fruition is also extremely interested in reflecting on the nature of said fruition.)


Fruitions need not just be seen as a side effect of progress but a goldmine for insight into fabrications if the yogi is more inclined to observe the shutting down and rebooting processes. If not, then fruition smishen.
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: SE without a fruition?

Posts: 3183 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Opinions obviously vary.

My two cents:

Fruition is necessary for Stream Entry.

Some will recognize it and others won't.

Some will be able to repeat it and others won't.

Many events that are not Stream Entry can cause major shifts in practice and positive and profound insights, most notably the A&P, but also Equanimity, PCE's, and many others, including more mundane things like dreams, deaths, births, and psychological insights, etc.

Many Stream Enterers will not behave exactly as idealists would wish.

Sorting these out is easiest in skilled technical practitioners, and the further one gets from that basic skillset the harder it is. This is one of the many excellent reasons to be have that basic paradigm and skillset.

D
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Pål S., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: SE without a fruition?

Posts: 196 Join Date: 8/16/10 Recent Posts
I'm not sure what the general consensus in Buddhism is on this matter, but for what it's worth I can offer my own personal experience:

Fruition is not necessary for Stream Entry.

I have never gotten a path moment with a fruition directly following it, usually the fruition lags behind for a couple of minutes/hours/days/weeks. When the fruition hits, it's a relief because it feels like the brain is finally allowed to reboot itself into the new configuration.

And to end on a bombshell: I have also experienced getting the same path moment twice.


Disclaimer: For all I know I could be talking about about something completely different, who knows?
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Dauphin Supple Chirp, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: SE without a fruition?

Posts: 154 Join Date: 3/15/11 Recent Posts
Since we're already talking about this, let me share my own (relatively limited) experience: It's obviously impossible to know this for certain, but it seems that the moment that changed my view was when mindfulness became immediate enough for consciousness to fold in on itself, which I believe is what this paragraph tries to describe:

[...] the object of consciousness in magga-phala appears to be the simple fact of consciousness itself, which makes it into "consciousness without an object" - something more-or-less inconceivable to the ordinary mind, but shockingly real to the mind in magga-phala. This is the meaning of "consciousness taking the Void as its object." Consciousness has no other object but itself.

(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jhana_insight/message/2978)

The actual cessations (reality being totally gone for a moment) started happening about two days later.

I have never fully understood exactly how this (my personal experience from over a year ago) corresponds to ñāṇas 12­­ to 15.

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