With joy, we are joyful of all of phenomena are we not? Nothing else concerns us (though for those with more experience then i suppose apperception allows one to be both joyful and planning/scheming/speculating,etc, idk) However, isn't being also phenomenon? Is not bliss simply joy directed at being? There may be danger in this, i suppose. what is that danger? is the danger that being is impermanent and can turn into suffering at any moment? i suppose many experienced meditators and those with many insights will say that being, itself, is suffering. Why? Is it because with being there also exists the possibility of suffering and so fear is always present on some level? Using the af method, are we too exclusively focus our joy on the 5 senses and turn away from being?

jon

don't complicate this too much. I understand the emphasis on practice but it's making this way harder than it needs to be for a lot of people, i think.

you KNOW the difference already. You know what bliss feels like, that highly relaxed super-sugary-sweet good tender feeling that fills up your heart and body and mind and whatever.

Joy is a lot like light-heartedness, not taking things too seriously, having an excellent sense of humour or seeing the humor in simply being here, alive. It's the happiness that comes from letting go of yourself in the moment, doing whatever you're doing without a care in the world.

i didn't know. i no longer think that bliss is simply joy at being. this would indicate that i didn't know the difference at the time of posting. i now think bliss is a calmed identity. probably quite helpful in the early stages to get one out of the rat race or whichever hole one was in upon finding the dhamma. of course, all opinions are subject to reversal and/or dismissal.

peace,

jon.

Jon,
This is the sort of thing that is like trying to describe to someone what an orange tastes like. It's impossible to pin it down. But then if you talk to someone who has also eaten an orange then it is possible for them to communicate about it and understand each other.
Here's my take based on eating oranges. :

Bliss overwhelms me. It is emotional and physical. If experienced around other people you might find yourself looking around to see if anybody is noticing your bliss.

Joy does not overwhelm me and is a much calmer feeling. It has a sense of accepting everything just as it is. As if it was always meant to be that way. Even people and things that may have annoyed you in the past, you will find that they cannot be any other way then the way they are. In some sense then maybe Joy affects my mental formations too.

I hope that you and anyone who reads this experience both in abundance.
Gerry