A question if i may:

I'm trying to develop concentration by simply counting breaths 1 to 10, while the attention rests on the abdominal movement. I don't want to abandon this technique if it is not strictly necessary.

I have a chronic pain of the back that is partially out of my control (meaning that i cannot take effective measures to stop it).
This pain, which is nothing else than muscle tension triggers aggressive feelings, a general stress reaction in the body, and distract big time. I actually concentrate on a slight recline position (a sofa), but mostly it's still there and i can nullify it just by lying down, although the aggressive feelings still arise due to simple proprioception (i'm neurotic about it). The downside of the lie-down position is that it gets me drowsy.

Since it's most likely that i will bring this thing with me for the rest of my life, meditations included, i am finding myself in the position of doing anapanasati in a somewhat stressful condition, some (anyway tolerable) pain, aggressive feelings concerning it. It's not something i can hide from. It will always be with me.

Will the concentration practice, in the sense of continuously getting back to breath work anyways, or should i take heavy countermeasures, such as arrange myself to make the stuff go away during concentration? (but as i said that's not fully possible).

Spit out any kind of unhelpful, disorganized and distorted idea or consideration that might come in mind please (in Italy we say everything makes broth). Not joking.

Immensely grateful.

Just do dry vipassanā. Concentration will develop as a bonus after a few months. It sounds like you're already exploring the physical and mental phenomena surrounding your pain anyway, so instead of feeling like they are just a distraction, why not make them the main focus of your practice? I think the dry vipassanā approach works for most Westerners.

I have suffered with chronic pain for years and have worked my way through every option the NHS offered without success.

By far, the thing that has helped the most is Shinzen Young’s book "Break Through Pain"

http://www.amazon.com/Break-Through-Pain-Step-Step/dp/1591791995

Nothing will ever get rid of the pain, but after following the exercises in the book (specific Vipasanna techniques), I can deal with it so much better. It also comes with a CD/downloadable mp3, depending on which version you get, which guides you though each meditation.

I honestly can’t recommend this book enough.

I hope this helps.

Paul

I second the "use it for vipassana" tone of the answers above. With regard to sleepiness lying down though, have you tried this with your eyes open? You can wear less clothes also, so you're a little cold. I've had good success with lying down which I've found really helpful for concentration.

Three considerations:

1) What do you mean with dry vipassana? the only style of vipassana i currently know is Mahasi noting.

2) I have heard everywhere that to note effectively you would need a certain amount of concentration. Kenneth Folk talks about being able to count three full 1-10 sets, while staying with the object and off course not losing count. My teacher (who will be available in a few weeks) writes that yes, to note you need a certain amount of concentration, but that it varies with individuals. I don't think to be at that level yet in both cases.

3) The pain isn't constant, sometimes there isn't any. For example, most of the times the first 10 minutes of meditation there is no evident pain. I'm not sure about what "taking it as the main focus" would mean. To use it as an anchor instead of the abdomen? There are three problems: the one of the first 10 minutes, although i can try to seek it out and make it more evident, as there is always some slight degree of muscle tension. The second concerns the hassle of straying from the known paths. Noting and breath counting are well known, tested and offer a certain amount of security. The last thing i want to do is go on my own, i must be sure to succeed. The third is that my teacher has noting and breath counting as his favourites.

Thanks Dauphin...! I know i'm hard-headed.

Thanks. Got it shipped.

I've been told once that lying down or recline positions were more helpful for mindfulness and a straighter position for concentration, so i discarded lying down since then. I'm glad to hear a different story now. I must say though that while lying down cuts out the "pure pain" part of problem, proprioception on the area still does make aggressive feelings to arise, and to some extent the sticky stress state.

Mahasi noting is what I'm talking about. I'm not a huge expert, but I use the term "dry" to refer to noting without first developing concentration.



It is correct that you need a certain amount of concentration, but from what you were saying it sounded like you already that amount. The main point is, though, that you need a certain amount of concentration to note effectively. Even if your noting is not yet very effective, you can still practice noting without concentration. The guidelines as to exactly what amount of concentration you need are not absolutely binding. I think a good way of finding out yourself whether or not you have sufficient concentration is to do a whole session of noting and afterwards try to assess how much of the time you actually spent noting and how much of the time you were lost in the content of thoughts / not really noting / not being mindful. If you find that you spent a good portion of the time actually noting one thing after the other, that means you are ready to just do noting practice without concentration training.



You are again talking like someone who already has sufficient concentration to do noting rather than concentration practice. I feel like I should at this point share my own experience with fairly strong pain during meditation:

After a couple of weeks of counting breaths, knowing very little about meditation, I met someone who suggested I should note any sensation that distracted me from the breath (before returning to the breath). I started doing that because it seemed to help my concentration, not knowing that I had started a form of vipassanā practice. After another couple of months, I tried something he called "choiceless awareness." By this he meant noting whatever impinges upon your consciousness, then noting the next sensation right away, without ever returning to the breath. Within minutes of starting this, I got into A&P territory (the 4th vipassanā ñāṇa / the udayabbaya ñāṇa). However, it wasn't quite clear to me at the time exactly what was happening and how it related to the progress of insight.

After a couple of days of this, I had a really bad sore throat. It was nothing that I worried about dying from, but the pain itself, on a scale from 1 to 10, was probably about a 6, so that's pretty severe for a sore throat. When I sat down and started noting, I wasn't even really decomposing the pain into heat, pressure, or anything as elementary as that, but I simply noted "pain" whenever it was actually the strongest sensation, or rather the sensation I was experiencing in that moment. To my amazement, it occurred to me afterwards that only about one twentieth of my notes had been "pain." The overwhelming majority were the usual, mainly neutral, phenomena (such as thinking, hearing, seeing). Ever since then my relationship to any kind of discomfort, physical and mental, has been dramatically different. Keep in mind, all this was "only" A&P, something that's relatively easy to attain, and you may be a lot closer to it than you think.

In a way, this is how it is: Meditative success does not consist of changing the pain or changing what you are. It's about changing the relationship between you and the pain. In the course of all this, you will first better understand what the pain is, and then you will better understand what you are.

To bring it back down to earth: If you can, try to neither push the pain away nor seek it out. Simply note anything that you experience. Don't try to judge meditative success by how many of your notes happen to be directly related to a specific pain. You can get enlightened from a pain, a sound, a sight, a feeling in the body, a subtle sensation, a gross sensation. The point of vipassanā meditation is to clearly see whatever is happening. It does not matter what it is that is happening, just so long as you see it clearly.

I hope this helps you. I have significant experience with meditation, but nowhere near the level of some of the people on here, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

hi,

i do want to second dry vipassana but what the hell do i know?

how about an energy shot before lying down?

with vipassana you don't need to meditate, you can do it anywhere at any time. so if you like the act of meditating then concentration meditation seems like a good practice. (though i think metta would be even better but what the hell do i know? haha)

try coupling the energy shot with certain songs that have an energetic effect. u can take the shot 15 minutes before lying down. put the ipod nearby and set it to the song(s) that work best. when drowsy hits, press play and focus on the songs themselves until you want to try counting the breaths again.

I agree with Jon's suggestions as a self-management strategy. Mood has a lot to do with pain, especially chronic pain.

But you really should be looking to cure it. Effective treatment can be achieved by finding someone who can enter a reasonably self-less state and asking him to sit with you while simultaneously stimulating the painful area somehow (finger pressure, tapping, massage... anything really). Do you know anyone who can induce a partial glimpse of self-lessness in themselves?

I thought about filming this evening noting (aloud for the occasion, usually silent)... can you check? not the whole vid... just a minute or so here and there. If you see something wrong, or strange... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NUCXypoef0

I began with counting 1-10 and backwards once just to get in the mood. there was no particular pain this time, some back aching but nothing bad, as today was a rest day.
It was "choiceless style", no breath anchor, although at times when i was noting 'proprio' (proprioception) it was the breath. It went relatively good for my standard, some other times i'm quite more blocked on noting.

I would just like to know if i should modify something or can go on like this indefinitely. Althought i have only practiced occasionally, it seems to me that i'm stalled. I don't get faster or clearer, or more precise.


Thanks.

I only know about Red Bull here... it is an energy drink in a can like that of a coke. I never tried it in any occasion, but it's interesting, thanks.

There is a woman in a zen dojo who i think might be at least first path. I should say that the nature of the pain isn't neurological, but very physical: my back is messed up to some extent and some muscle groups have to work harder than others to stabilize, and in most busy days they hurt. For example as a side effect i have difficulties in concentrating on my studying because the pain distracts. The plans i currently have on the physical dimension are mostly gym-based (i'm quite thin).

One possibility to deal with chronic pain is to have a shiatsu session with a qualified shiatsu practitioner.

If you're correct about it being a purely a strength-related mechanical problem, then the following exercises will cure it within weeks. They focus on achieving core stability, primarily through activation of the transversus abdominus group of muscles.
Paul Hodges is the authority on this stuff.

read: http://www.ccptr.org/articles/core-training-the-dangers-of-what-our-patients-think-they-know/

btw, all those dichotomies that people create - neurological vs musculoskeletal, organic vs inorganic, acute vs chronic, inflammatory vs mechanical, are not really all that important. I have evidence to suggest they can all types of pain can be treated very effectively by having a therapist who can enter a selfless state. The physical application of technique is very much a secondary consideration; in fact it's all but unnecessary. The only useful part of having a physical technique to use is that it assists in bringing the patient's attention (consciously or unconsciously) to bear on the underlying emotional issue.

C.C.C.

" I have evidence to suggest they can all types of pain can be treated very effectively by having a therapist who can enter a selfless state. The physical application of technique is very much a secondary consideration; in fact it's all but unnecessary. The only useful part of having a physical technique to use is that it assists in bringing the patient's attention (consciously or unconsciously) to bear on the underlying emotional issue."



Could you expand on this as it doesn’t make any sense to me? Are you talking about having someone explain tips/techniques in avoiding giving the pain narrative voice or form?


Giulio:

Have you had any formal medical advice/treatment? Please be careful in looking at alternative treatment until you’ve exhausted every other option first. There are such a wide variety of causes for chronic pain that an accurate diagnosis (as is possible) should be your first step. Chronic pain is not easily understood and much of the research conducted so far has yet to filter down into comprehensive treatments. Do not think something will work for you just because it has for other people, and please take a healthy dose of skepticism to any claims that something will “cure” you; I’ve learnt first-hand that the emotional let-down and shattered hopes can be just as hard to deal with as the pain itself.

That’s not to say your body won’t sort itself out with the correct treatment, and if your problem's stem from muscle imbalances (or, are at least heightened by it) a cautious strengthening route may well help – C.C.C.’s warning link is good.

I’d really work on techniques that will help with how you perceive the pain, this will be a great help with any other course of action you decide to take.

I think mechanical treatments of all sorts can be very successful, but they tend not to have any effect at all if the relationship between the therapist and the patient is poor. This strongly indicates that the relationship is the primary or active ingredient, and that the physical aspect of the treatment is either secondary, or not even necessary in achieving a good outcome. [By 'physical aspect', I mean any exercise, drug, surgery, procedure, flower essence crap or whatever. And by 'therapist' I mean anyone from any background or training who is offering help].

So if we look at the therapeutic relationship, what aspect of the therapist's behaviour/attitude makes it therapeutic? I'm saying that it's the therapist's ability to be selfless that is by far the most potent catalyst for
change. He offers a 'space' for change to happen.

Of course there's situations where just sitting with someone isn't going to cut it as a treatment. Most patients aren't used to 'doing nothing' as a treatment - they need action! If they don't get action, they find it almost impossible to let go and trust the process. Receptivity and trust is what the patient needs to bring to the table. Usually they think they don't have to bring anything but that's a mistake IMO. So I'm saying for most patients, it's helpful to pretend to do something, pretend to take some action purely because it helps them settle. Most therapists are in love with their techniques, believing that the technique is making the difference, when it's actually their attitude of trusting the technique that is the driver of change ('placebo' is just fear reduction through misplaced trust). I say do away with technique wherever possible.

But what about if a patient is bleeding to death? It's highly unlikely he will make himself receptive to 'just sitting', and in any case, how many doctors know how to shut off their anxiety and just sit with the patient when he is about to drop dead? A certain degree of expediency is also common sense. Stopping the bleeding mechanically is so much quicker and easier - just use a tourniquet, right?

Having watched the entire video, I don't see anything wrong or strange. From what I can tell—and I think especially on this site, many people will agree—it is now all going to be about becoming better and better, meaning faster. At some point, you may either use something really short (like "blip"), or get into a "rhythm" of sorts where you are just noticing everything really fast without actually noting it, aloud or mentally, with a word. The goal is to keep making the awareness/mindfulness so immediate that it "folds in on itself." In my own (limited) experience this immediacy meant mainly speed. All this said, there is nothing wrong with letting the speed develop at its own pace. Some people try purposely being really fast and then sort of bringing the level of actual mindfulness up to the originally artificial rhythm. Personally I always stayed with the natural rhythm and let it become faster and faster on its own. Either way it's an unpleasant task and you just somehow have to make sure that it wears down your stubbornness and causes you to let go rather than wearing down your resolve and causing you to quit.

It can happen either way, and until now it has been the last one, but i don't know how to exactly control it. I imagine i should make an effort to assume an intellectual position of equanimity about formations, and start some kind of discipline.

Thanks for reviewing the vid. I've got a diary on KFD, stalled, it's going to be resumed...

Yes, if you find yourself quitting, discipline could be the answer. I find it easiest to stick to a routine if I meditate first thing in the morning. It also helps to eat less or nothing after noon, provided your job is not too demanding.

One more little thing I have been thinking about: The label "proprioception" just doesn't seem quite right to me. I'm not saying it can't be useful, but the potential problem I see with it is that you might just keep using it without trying to see through it. Proprioception is by definition the sense of where your body is located in space. The problem here is that, through meditation, you are eventually going to find out that your body doesn't exist in the way you thought it did, and you're going to find out that space itself does not exist in the way you thought it did. My suggestion would be to try to decompose "proprioception" into more elementary phenomena. What is it that you actually feel? Is it expansion? Motion? Stillness? Pressure? Tension? It may all just be a language problem, in which case you are very welcome to ignore this comment.

I suffer from back pain, having had a lot of reconstructive spinal surgery (for kypho-scoliosis caused by Scheuermann's disease). I practice mainly anapanasati and can manage to get into jhana with back pain (on a good day!). It helps (if possible) to accept that it is there is pain there and try to relax as much as possible - but I know how frustrating it can be be. I sit on a thick firm cushion in half lotus and often have to shift position slightly every 5-10 minutes (I normally sit for 30-40) - it has taken me some time to get used to sitting like this and some days it is still a struggle. However, it does get easier. Sometimes when my concentration has been very focused, the pain (largely in shoulders / neck, sometimes thoracic) has disappeared. Other times it gets worse or stay the same. However, after a couple of years of practice I can usually get into quite a focused state even if pain is there. The first time I really got into a jhana (via anapanasati to start, then shifting to metta) I had a muscle that was in spasm in my shoulder. It still hurt, but I didn't care too much about it - hard to describe. I think all you can do is persevere. I have also found basic stretching (pilates-like) and qigong can be good for limbering up a bit. Hope that helps. Keep at it!

Thanks Jim...!
Is it possible to have a mail or yours...? mine: giulio.removethis.b86@gmail.com

I stopped saying it and i was able to use more detailed notes, althought there are many sensations for which i can't find a classical note... for example: if your stomach is full, that can arise as a sensation, but i can't say "this is heat, contraction, tightness, aching..." to me is just the feeling of a full stomach... pheraps i can say just "feeling"? it's what i'm used to do. TY.