Stream Entry: Going for it.

Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 3/9/12 6:45 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 3/13/12 3:05 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 3/14/12 8:12 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 3/16/12 8:34 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 3/18/12 1:04 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 3/18/12 2:39 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 3/19/12 12:21 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 4/10/12 11:12 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 4/10/12 11:20 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. (D Z) Dhru Val 4/11/12 9:07 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 4/13/12 4:55 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. (D Z) Dhru Val 4/14/12 8:19 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 4/22/12 5:19 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 4/22/12 10:40 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. Thom W 4/23/12 5:03 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 4/24/12 8:55 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 4/24/12 3:35 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. Adam . . 4/24/12 5:19 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 4/26/12 4:11 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 4/26/12 7:50 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 4/27/12 7:23 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 4/28/12 7:38 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 4/29/12 11:27 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 4/30/12 6:24 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 5/29/12 12:25 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 6/13/12 11:10 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 6/14/12 6:32 AM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 6/16/12 2:29 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 6/18/12 3:14 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 6/18/12 5:19 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. John Mac 6/22/12 2:38 PM
RE: Stream Entry: Going for it. katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 6/22/12 5:19 PM
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John Mac, modified 12 Years ago at 3/9/12 6:45 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/9/12 6:26 AM

Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Hi there,

So I'm starting a new thread to log things of note that come up in practice, hopefully, all the way up to SE.

I believe I crossed A&P a few weeks ago, just after a retreat. (Previous thread). I believe I'm around mid-equanimity. As, since my last post, things have stayed fairly stable and pleasantly understated. It actually feels really hard to define, as unless there's a "smooth calm" running through me, it's just... nothing?

I've left this weekend extremely open, so hopefully I can really get some momentum going towards this.

Technique:
Throughout the day I'm switching between Mahasi noting, or just "experiencing/observing" my interactions with the world as fully as I can. Probably more the latter, of late.

While in a sit, I'll usually start off noting the breath. A recent trend in my sits is to bring the attention out wider and wider and try and keep my awareness spacious and then "pin down" sensations as they arise, sometimes trying to perceive further out and out towards "me", but this is really quite difficult and I often enter noticeable concentration shifts. Then I'll drop noting for a bit and see objects that are clearest and try and get a good look at what's going on.

Phenomenon:
In the "deeper" levels of this investigation, it starts to feel as if my whole perception is something like a film reel, with the "eye of consciousness" flickering outwards. I try and look at the flickering, but it's very hard to pin down. It's a lot slower than the "vibrations" in less concentrated observation, only a couple of times a second perhaps.

In a few good sits, looking into sensations in my nostrils/cheeks, there have seemed to be "blobs" sort of pulsing in and out slowly and boldly. Need to try and see this again to say more.

Questions:
One thing I'm not certain about. When people say "see the 3 C's as clearly as possible", should I be interrupting clear-cut awareness of sensations to think "Dissolution", shift my perception a little, "Suffering", shift, "No-Self". shift? The phenomena definitely feels different each time I do this, but part of me wonders if this will happen by default just by observing consistently.

I'm planning on trying to nail some concentration practice tonight, as this is something that is still quite puzzling and probably stalling me with "what is this?". One thing I can seem to re-produce fairly easily is, getting full body awareness, and then "pushing" all of it into a definite wider area of consciousness, it just shifts. As if everything I was previously perceiving is now in a doughnut of outer awareness, and it's all just very calm and darker. Reading through descriptions, this sounds like 2nd Jhana, but I'm reluctant to categorise it. Any advice?

Thanks for reading. emoticon
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John Mac, modified 12 Years ago at 3/13/12 3:05 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/13/12 3:01 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Okay, so I didn't manage to sit as much as I'd have liked to over the weekend, but still did a lot of investigating. Mainly on "Who am I?", "Am I that?" sort of stuff.

I'm pretty sure I hallucinated the sound of an old fashioned steam train going past. I do live by a railway, but there was an abrupt "start" of it starting to move and then a "stop" of the sound where it should have trailed off. More appropriately, as whether or not it happened is probably irrelevant, I asked myself the question "Did that actually happen?". Is the tie to my memory something worthwhile of observing?

At more concentrated times throughout the day, my visual field gets small black "peppery" spots amongst the "particles" (if that makes sense?). Generally it's just calm and flowing, like the particles have got so small that, without focusing, I'm seeing sort of a slower glow.

Mostly, in my sits I have been trying to "just sit" and gently prod in further and further to my "inner eye". The further I go, generally, the more violently everything starts vibrating and the "bits" feel quite blocky. Part of the reason I haven't written much is because it's so damn hard to explain!
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John Mac, modified 12 Years ago at 3/14/12 8:12 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/14/12 8:12 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Interesting. Was trying to focus in on my feet, trying to get a feel of "where" to focus, while walking down the road. Was surprised to note that the feelings aren't necessarily being perceived AT the feet, like there's no actual location... it's very vague at the moment.

Also, had a few moments where my sense of self slipped on to random things, such as my college at his desk. I was daydreaming, took a look at him and suddenly got this split-moment where he was "me", then back to normal. Hard to explain, but I could just feel it, in the same way my actions "feel" owned most of the time.
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John Mac, modified 12 Years ago at 3/16/12 8:34 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/15/12 2:32 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Ok, great sit. I started trying to get some Samatha going with a kasina, but got a bit lost with it and decided just to go back to the thing I've found most efficient - sitting back and exploring my head/face/fore/background.

There are loads, if not too many objects (formations, right?) just flying in my face. Give them some attention, they break up, give more attention, and then I get to the point "where I'm at", trying to stay with the speed of these things.

I'd read a few things about noticing "gaps" between objects, and how my "self" should be visible, but both things seemed a bit vague until now. The theory in my head that I'm about to write out just seems too simple, obvious and "facepalm" to actually be what I'm "supposed" to be going after. Which sounds like a good reaction. If someone could help with some "thumbs up" on my descriptions below, or gently lead me away from this tree I'm about to bark up, that'd be great.

So, funnily enough, if there isn't an object (when it "ends", or I'm not "with it") there's this "film" (as in layer) of "me". It's the "me" I see every day, every conversation, even now, but generally don't give it any notice, just take it as what should be there. It's giving me some "tone" to write this in a sort of unavoidable distortion. When I was sitting there "trying" to grip the objects, or "let them come closer" and "give up, until they're right at me", the in between moments showed it. It seemed dumb at first, because "of course that's what I'd see", but it is an object, and it can be investigated. And yeah, it seems to flash, though that's tricky. There's a sense of something underneath/deeper/emptier, but it feels locked out.

This all sounds way more substantial than what I'm actually observing, it's literally the most "nothing" and watered down thing to notice, but it would make perfect sense that this is the thing I've been failing to look at properly. Not really foreground or background, but just slotted there, a mental picture of "me", obviously way off, because there's nothing to be "way on"! I guess a constant picture of how my face actually looks would be a bit more useful, just for some feedback. I noticed, when I was getting a bit too tense, the face I "felt" I was pulling was one of a friends, then the corners of my smile I instantly saw as the face of a cat!? Ha.
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John Mac, modified 12 Years ago at 3/18/12 1:04 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/18/12 1:04 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Concentration and insight seem to be coming along nicely together, really seeing how much they're tied together now. No real "insights" have come about, except the "self" really seems a lot more objectified and easier to experience clearly. Very much a case of feeling it out with "concentration muscles".

Been mainly practicing Kenneth Folk's 1st Gear, 2nd Gear system, getting a real feel of the self. Going around in "2nd gear" is a lot easier to do now, very liberating indeed!

Laying in bed last night, let things come to me and kept investigating as lightly and broadly as I could. Really getting the feel of "letting sensations in" further, rather than finding them. A moment also where something "touched" when I let it in far enough. Became intensely concentrated after a while, went into territory that I didn't quite understand. At one point I really felt like I could incline my mind towards a certain idea of my choosing and then really get in deep and experience it. At one point my mind wandered off and started imagining an extremely attractive woman. Then there was a very intense wave, maybe a couple of seconds where the woman "formed" in front of me and animated in a very solid way that I could feel and see. This shit is crazy.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 12 Years ago at 3/18/12 2:39 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/18/12 2:39 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi John Mac,

Very much a case of feeling it out with "concentration muscles".
(...)

At one point I really felt like I could incline my mind towards a certain idea of my choosing and then really get in deep and experience it.


How is attention during day-to-day things (e.g., listening to other speakers, reading new material, working on familiar things/ideas, emotion, chores, the sense faculties)?

Cheers,
Katy
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John Mac, modified 12 Years ago at 3/19/12 12:21 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/19/12 12:21 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Hi Katy,

Not always, but most of the time, it's all very effortless! A lot of the work I'm doing, it's as if things are coming to me way easier and it's stuff I personally "resonate" with more. Kind of a calm undercurrent. Thinking about it though, generally speaking, this is the way things have improved since I started meditating, so it's not too surprising...

At the moment though, there's a lot less wrestling with myself to use attention then last week. To be specific, I used to really have to "feel out the spaciousness" around objects and/or myself to get with the things. Now it feels very much easier to go where I want to go.

Hope that makes sense!

Thanks,
John
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 4/10/12 11:12 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/10/12 11:10 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Have been focusing more on the concentration side of things since my last post and managed to hit a Jhana for the first time. Or at least, "touch" a Jhana, before getting excited and falling back to high access concentration.

Possibly irrelevant, but maybe interesting. A crazy thing happened this weekend when I reluctantly went along to my parent's Church for the Easter service. They have always been very focused on "the holy spirit" (which I'd recently "figured" was some sort of metta/concentration practice).
There was about 20 minutes of "worship" at the beginning, and I ascended into an extremely heavy state of joy/bliss. Pretty much unbearable at times, almost identical to the "Jhana" state I was in above. Heart felt like it was going to explode. Was on a "spiritual high" for pretty much the rest of the day, good shit! haha.

Insight wise, I feel a little lost for direction at the moment. Right now I'm doing noting of the "particles" in/around the anapana spot. "bip bip bip", which sometimes gets me into some thrilling/concentrated states. They're places I'm not really sure what's going on a lot of the time. I guess just, gently investigate? Will doing this guarantee progress at a good rate? Still unsure whether I should be doing other practices in order for this to go past wherever I am.
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 4/10/12 11:20 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/10/12 11:19 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Also, if I'm really honest with myself: I feel rather stuck between "Ugh, this is never going happen" and "This going to happen!?!" (I.e. Disbelief or excitement/anticipation). In general, I'm getting kind of bored with it. The idea of landing SE is appealing, if only to lift the burden of needing to get somewhere.

I don't know how much of a problem this is, or if "just keep practicing" is the way through (as it usually is). Writing it out seems to help somewhat anyway.
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(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 11 Years ago at 4/11/12 9:07 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/11/12 9:07 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
John Mac:

Insight wise, I feel a little lost for direction at the moment. Right now I'm doing noting of the "particles" in/around the anapana spot. "bip bip bip", which sometimes gets me into some thrilling/concentrated states. They're places I'm not really sure what's going on a lot of the time. I guess just, gently investigate? Will doing this guarantee progress at a good rate? Still unsure whether I should be doing other practices in order for this to go past wherever I am.


You are doing well, sounds like EQ. You are probably closer than you think.

Try this:

Start out noting normally... till you get to the thrilling state (assuming EQ).

Then drop formal noting.

Most people what a set of sensations at the back of the head that are subconsciously associated with 'me'.

What you want to do is observe those back of the head sensations, in attempting to do so you will be forced to shift the subconscious association of 'me' to a different set of sensations.

You will find that the 'me' will revert back to its default location at the back of the head as soon as the moment of awareness ends. So keep refreshing your awareness of these back of the head sensations. If you are aware of them they can't be you, so you can start to see them as 'not me'.

If all goes well this will happen effortlessly and your whole field of reality will start to feel wobbly. The first couple of times you will get excited and it wont go through. But eventually you should get stream entry.

(Made this overly detailed on purpose, try not to get caught up in whether what is happening matches this description precisely)
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 4/13/12 4:55 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/13/12 4:54 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Thanks D Z. Most of that sounds pretty familiar, I'll give that metaphor a good solid try tonight.

D Z:
your whole field of reality will start to feel wobbly. The first couple of times you will get excited and it wont go through


Yeah, the wobbling is a common thing. I try and take a wide, mindful "snapshot" of the anticipation state and roll from there, but it's making a habit of it that's the really tricky part. It's disturbing how easily I convince myself I've had enough.

D Z:
set of sensations at the back of the head that are subconsciously associated with 'me'.


This is still irritatingly vague for me. I have a faint, but obviously present mental picture of my face, and some background feelings that are just really unclear so I've not really been sure if it's what I'm supposed to be looking at. I'll keep rooting around.
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(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 11 Years ago at 4/14/12 8:19 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/14/12 8:19 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
John Mac:

D Z:
set of sensations at the back of the head that are subconsciously associated with 'me'.


This is still irritatingly vague for me. I have a faint, but obviously present mental picture of my face, and some background feelings that are just really unclear so I've not really been sure if it's what I'm supposed to be looking at. I'll keep rooting around.


By sensations I am primarily referring to physical sensations, not mental images. Though maybe for you that faint mental picture is associated with the physical sensations.

For me the physical sensation at the physical spot in the head that I associated with the 'the observer'.

And I would try to observe the observer with a high frequency of noting. The process of observing the sensations allowed them to be seen as not me, not 'the observer'.
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 4/22/12 5:19 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/22/12 5:17 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
The "emptiness" of the sensations has started to show up recently, pretty cool. Still no SE, but more altered states of consciousness have started to arise.

Have just bought the book "Focused and Fearless" to aid my concentration with this. It's always been a weak side of my practice, so I think it's about time I corrected it!
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 4/22/12 10:40 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/22/12 11:37 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi John -

I suppose I will ask you again about any mindfulness practice that you may be undertaking outside of practicing concentration on the cushion.

Do you have a practice for simple tasks (e.g., such as very carefully being aware of every activity involved in going to bed, putting head on pillow, going to sleep) and how do you experience/engage/filter/possess/direct them?

I ask about this mindfulness of simple actions because most of one's life is not on the cushion in meditation and the mind of simple actions off the cushion is often the same mind "directing" (filtering/engaging/possessing,etc) specific concentration practice.

Mindfulness and concentration are not different, except that concentration takes up an isolated action for focused training of the mind (e.g., kasina, anapanasati), and mindfulness takes concentrated attention to countless daily actions, and thus works on the mind-set that may think of itself as being a contiguous entity that would possess the concentration (versus just being the faculty that can keep attention on the apt objects). So-called "mindfulness" relates concentration to training the mind to see itself as aggregates, not a contiguous "itself" that would assume its ownership or possession of concentration or the benefits of concentration. And this training relates to anatta, and anatta may be the gate to "stream-entry", as stream-entry is said to occur through one of the three characteristics.

Does this line of questions make sense to you?

An aside: I loved your description of the eye faculty's peppery delivery of vision. It is a very apt, simple description from my experience. I refer to it as particulate or static-like (as from the TV). Thank you.


Edited.
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Thom W, modified 11 Years ago at 4/23/12 5:03 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/23/12 5:03 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 63 Join Date: 12/31/10 Recent Posts
Here is a link to a PDF of the excellent Mindfulness in Plain English, which has a good chapter on establishing daily life mindfulness as well as clarifying the basics (and beyond) of effective practce in a thorough way.

Mindfulness in Plain English

Urban Dharma has the eBook version too, also for free.

Thom
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 8:55 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 8:55 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Yeah, I've let the importance of everyday mindfulness almost completely drop away apart from numerous "time to note" when walking or washing etc. There's a strong tendency to be brutal with it, or organise it as a "goal" and put it in my mental schedule...

katy steger:
So-called "mindfulness" relates concentration to training the mind to see itself as aggregates, not a contiguous "itself" that would assume its ownership or possession of concentration or the benefits of concentration


Katy, that description is great, took me a few reads! It's really quite obvious, but I miss it so, so often (I guess that's what all of this is though). "Possession" of skills is a constant thing I fail to see though.

Thom, that chapter really helped put things in perspective. I read MiPE as my "intro" to meditation, had forgotten how absolutely bursting with wisdom it is.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 3:35 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 3:32 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
that description is great, took me a few reads! It's really quite obvious, but I miss it so, so often (I guess that's what all of this is though). "Possession" of skills is a constant thing I fail to see though.


Great. I'm going to excerpt a slightly different type of text today. It is from someone I never could meet in person, but who is my mentor. I would replace every dhamma book with the few books and videos I have of him.

There's nothing like learning mindfulness from a 1200-lb animal that reads (and reacts to) every bit of my intention and mind based on my every movement and my focus.

So, quoted from a student (whose horse "suddenly" developed an easy way after the student paid attention to (and ceased) adding discomforts to the animal and starting paying addition to exactly what he was adding to the animal in his small hand and foot movements, sharpening his own uncollected focus to himself and his sentient charge, and thanks to Mr. Dorrance's observation and few words of coaching:

[indent]"So, once again, Tom, had given me an old lesson over - it is never the "big thing" that we should focus on, but all the little things that come before that big thing, and then the big thing will take care of itself".[/indent]

All of this stuff is really simple if we just do it simply and with attention and awareness. Of course, if I had had those attributes in spades, I wouldn't have ended up using this practice. emoticon

Best wishes.

[edit: and I hope you will understand that "my" is used conventionally!]
Adam , modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 5:19 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 5:19 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent Posts
"So, once again, Tom, had given me an old lesson over - it is never the "big thing" that we should focus on, but all the little things that come before that big thing, and then the big thing will take care of itself".


thank you for this quote, it is so true of interpersonal relationships... it starts becoming so clear when mindfulness is present. we can really communicate wisdom through the slightest of things, we don't have to proselytize.
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 4/26/12 4:11 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/26/12 4:11 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Awesome. That's seems like a perfect example of balancing effort/energy/attention - something that you can never stop tweaking I suppose! It never fails to surprise me how much being constantly mindful of the mind/body helps maintain continuity between sits.

Enjoying imagining myself as a horse, gently, but attentively directing it in the correct direction emoticon
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 4/26/12 7:50 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/26/12 7:31 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
HI John Mac and Adam L -

Enjoying imagining myself as a horse, gently, but attentively directing it in the correct direction emoticon


I linked earlier the obituary of Mr. Dorrance's older brother Bill Dorrance because a)Tom Dorrance is mentioned in it, but chiefly because b) the first sentence expresses that there is no such thing as a horse whisper and the idea is an affront to the horse. Maybe by "attentively directing it in the correct direction" there is the occurrence of the same affront: putting attentive direction before attentive observation is developed. Wholesome directing will happen naturally when the acute observation is developed and the motivation is to cease causes of suffering.

There is no one good mind directing one bad mind. There are both skillful (kusala) and unskillful (akusala) actions arising from the mental faculties (perception, cognition, volition and so forth). Mental training lets the mind train itself based on lots of observation (mindfulness and meditation).

Below more quotes (copied from the webpage, but the book True Unity is a gold mine of these related to actual training scenarios). Where you see the word "horse" and "him" just read the words "feral mind in-training" (or some such). And where you see the words "I" or "we" or "you" consider that to be the "clear mind" - clear, acute observation. Often the mental-faculty-in-training is not a fresh-faced new creature, but has lots of needy and distracting unskilful habits developed reactively over time (often naturally self-protective reactions that persist beyond utility into unskilful applications), making one's life adversely difficult and also possibly making others' lives adversely difficult.

[indent]The thing you are trying to help the horse do is to use his own mind. You are trying to present something and then let him figure out how to get there.
(...)
The best thing I try to do for myself is to try to listen to the horse. I don't mean let him take over. I listen to how he's operating: what he's understanding or what he doesn't understand: what's bothering him and what isn't bothering him. I try to feel what the horse is feeling and operate from where the horse is.
(...)
Listen to the horse. Try to find out what the horse is trying to tell you. All we are trying to do is fix things up to where he can find them; then it's the horse's idea.
(...)
It seems to go in pieces. That's how it seems to go even for a horse. There's "time" in there; it's just as well not to crowd the horse if he isn't ready for it. You keep offering, trying to help as much as you can, without troubling him too much about it. Then, there will be a day when it will just clear right up.

[/indent]

Thus, sitting meditation: training mental faculties to the breath and observing how needy, feral mentation arises and passes during the training

Thus, mindfulness: taking up observation of how one thinks, then acts, throughout the day.

It is simple observation. One commits to observing feral mentation and its impulses; the same faculty producing feral mentation produces its calming/concentration/settledness.* [edit 2: surprising resolutions come from this mental calm which settledness comes from steady observation and the motivation to live and end causes of suffering]

Mindfulness is a vigorous, simple training, not different from meditation on the cushion except that countless objects/actions become the object of attention versus just the breath.

well, that cuts my work out for me, anyway!

[*edit: at the end of the day, the bipeds and quadrupeds willing to Mr. Dorrance's close observation and subtle training cultivated contentedness, curiosity, friendlines (respect), well-being...not becoming zombies of detached, cool observation. Thus, any fear that meditation and mindfulness will reduce a person to some isolated, cool state is taking an action (fearful cognition) on feral mentation.]

edits: typos, omissions
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 4/27/12 7:23 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/27/12 7:17 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Whoah.

This is going to be difficult to explain, but I'll try:
After reading that I had a definite "break in the clouds" moment, and just for a second was able to bring attention to something very "me", as if it emerged and I could feel it. Upon "touching" it with awareness, it almost felt like awareness of that "me" dislodged something around it. The closest thing I could relate to the "dislodging" feeling would be orgasm!

Those quotes and comments are a fantastic reference, thank you! The concept of the mind "figuring itself out" puts a really useful emphasis on how much space to put between everything that arises. Especially "my" struggling...

Edit:
(I'm pretty positive there was no cessation there, as far as attaining Stream Entry goes)
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 4/28/12 7:38 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/28/12 2:34 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Whoah.
emoticon
. . . . ',|;-,.¸ .¸¸ . . ¸,.,¸.
. . . . ¸,' ¸,. . ¸ `-,"~-~',¸,.¹-~-._¸,
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(total keyboard-art plagiarism on my part and with no clue who to credit for it)


After reading that I had a definite "break in the clouds" moment, and just for a second was able to bring attention to something very "me", as if it emerged and I could feel it. Upon "touching" it with awareness, it almost felt like awareness of that "me" dislodged something around it. The closest thing I could relate to the "dislodging" feeling would be orgasm!

Those quotes and comments are a fantastic reference, thank you! The concept of the mind "figuring itself out" puts a really useful emphasis on how much space to put between everything that arises. Especially "my" struggling..
Excellent.

Edited. whoaaaaa: too many words... ; )
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 11:27 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 11:23 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi John,

This is going to be difficult to explain, but I'll try:
After reading that I had a definite "break in the clouds" moment, and just for a second was able to bring attention to something very "me", as if it emerged and I could feel it. Upon "touching" it with awareness, it almost felt like awareness of that "me" dislodged something around it. The closest thing I could relate to the "dislodging" feeling would be orgasm!

Those quotes and comments are a fantastic reference, thank you! The concept of the mind "figuring itself out" puts a really useful emphasis on how much space to put between everything that arises. Especially "my" struggling...

Edit:
(I'm pretty positive there was no cessation there, as far as attaining Stream Entry goes)


To me - and take this or leave it as your exploration, curiosity, intention and consideration are the better understanding of your experience - your account of spaciousness and dislodging sensations is the basis from which "high" equanimity develops. Even the sensation of an orgasm: I recall telling a friend that I was experiencing such random-placed pleasurable sensations for several weeks and that it was like "an orgasm occurring in the foot or other random place". This, however, can be a confusing and misleading description as "orgasm" is provocative and needlessly craved in many minds; these asexual sensations are indeed very different and, in my opinion, surpass the isolated sexual sensation - a relatively small, brief event. Such posts/comments often get undue attention...

This area of equanimity causes letting go of grasping at mentation (such as the mental concept of "stream entry" and the disturbing mentation preceding the knowledges of suffering in the 16 stages of insight), because the practice and effort become compelling in themselves and a person is more attracted to doing the practice (there is strong curiosity and causing natural willingness) than mentally perseverating. It is a place of curiosity and wonder, like dabbling in eddies of the stream of "Stream Entry".

Good luck.

[edit: clarification]
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 4/30/12 6:24 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/30/12 6:24 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Had a day or so of what felt like zero suffering after that. Interest to see you mention letting go, as that is exactly what this "layer" of insight seems to emphasize. "That's all I have to do"- if only it were always so simple.

Thanks again Katy, you've helped and motivated me a lot. Will update this with anything else that seems relevant emoticon
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 5/29/12 12:25 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 5/29/12 12:25 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Recently found out there's a Thai Forest Tradition Monastery relatively close to my home, so I've booked in a week stay there next Wednesday.

There's a lot of aversion towards the idea of practicing at the moment, unfortunately. Hopefully a chance to really go for it will help refocus.
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 6/13/12 11:10 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/13/12 11:10 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Suffering can be quite the teacher...

Feeling pretty confident about my practice at the moment. It's just good to have some clarity on "Where I'm at". Really went for it over the last week, reading A Path with Heart by Jack Kornfield (as per Daniel's suggest) intermittently. Such a helpful book for calming my restless tendencies.

A summary of where I think I'm at:
Concentration is really starting to hit off. The power of intention has been one of the most significant things I've noticed in my practice, to really stay alert and "with it" repeatedly. I'm certain I've not entered full absorption/Jhana yet. I often get to a point where there are many of the Jhanic factors present, but full absorption is still untraversed territory (afaik).
Saying that, while practising Insight, I've "fallen" into odd concentration states which may well be Jhana or a formless realm. It feels almost impossible to describe, so unless I can re-cultivate it I'll just keep it in mind as a passing phenonemon.

I have no idea where I am on the progress of insight. Seems rational to just keep noting, practising whenever I get free time and work out the results when I'm sure I've hit Stream Entry.

There isn't much consistency, phenomenon wise. Cycling even seems possible as there are odd (barely noticable) "blip" blackout moments at times. Two of the main points I'll note:
-When I relax and try and space out my awareness, sometimes I'll get a criss-cross sphere around me, like a globe of tiny buzzing vibrations.

-Sometimes if I watch an individual "sensation", I can watch it until it starts to appear and disappear repeatedly, then I start feeling the "disappearing" at my heart's centre. Sometimes then the majority of my perception is pretty much vibrating at this frequency as well.
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 6/14/12 6:32 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/14/12 6:32 AM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Mindfulness is extremely effortless and sustainable. Body parts/sensations are really starting to feel "empty". Breath, food often seem light and only "half there", as if a hologram. Easing back attention to be spacious, the whole body sometimes feels this way too.

Noting skill is feeling very do-able - more than ever. Sensations can quite clearly be perceived as "not-self" upon a moment or two's reflection.

That said, these are highlights, so I'll keep going and see where things lead. Today at least, very light and easy. Trying not to get ahead of myself...
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 6/16/12 2:29 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/14/12 8:37 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
6/14/12 8:37
Mindfulness is extremely effortless and sustainable. Body parts/sensations are really starting to feel "empty".
(...)
That said, these are highlights, so I'll keep going and see where things lead. Today at least, very light and easy. Trying not to get ahead of myself...
Nice. Just doing this. It may seem trite, but: no expectation/anticipation. Keep converting any energy of "where's this mindfulness going/I want "x" out of the mindfulness training" into mindfulness, apperceptive "curiosity"", friendly apperception and apprehending.

6/16 edit:
Perhaps Bahiya's own awakening is an account to which you may relate.
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 6/18/12 3:14 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/18/12 3:14 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Didn't manage to get a chance to sit over the weekend, but kept mindfulness/noting going as often as possible.


Some interesting things happened Saturday. The sense of 'I' was certainly at its weakest, mixed with an outrageous amount of confidence (personality wise). Hung out with a few friends in the evening and just seemed In The Zone. Lots of kundalini throughout the day, as well as flashes (like consciousness bugs) and piti.

Sunday until now, there seems to be a huge slab of suffering cut out from my thought process. It feels as if a bad set of 'I' induced suffering habits have just gone. I see my mind go to react to 'my' mistake, for example, but don't. Very peaceful!

It's obviously very tempting to think 'Stream Entry?'
'Locking in' to sensations/formations isn't so easy/automatic. But senses feel a freshness to them?

The idea of calling up a fruitition, or knowing what one really is still seems alien to me, so I'll continue noting and practicing. Would be nice to be able to tone down the cushion hours, but falling back into the DN isn't a risk I'd like to take.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 6/18/12 5:19 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/18/12 5:19 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Some interesting things happened Saturday. The sense of 'I' was certainly at its weakest, mixed with an outrageous amount of confidence (personality wise). Hung out with a few friends in the evening and just seemed In The Zone. Lots of kundalini throughout the day, as well as flashes (like consciousness bugs) and piti.

Ha- I was doing bakasana (crow pose) last winter -- also during a time of lots of pleasurable sensations arising spontaneously throughout the body (for example, just my hands resting on the table would just suddenly feel awesome bliss sensations, very enjoyable...just my hands resting on the table! Who knew?!) -- and on one occasion a shocking amount of confidence shot through my body into my head, like a meteor of distilled confidence-personality forming. I thought, "Is this what it's like to be a guy?" (sorry, guys, that's clearly deluded perception, but I'm just telling it like it was). It passed in about two seconds, but I laughed. It was a "Whoa - what the heck is this mind, anyway?" moment.

You and BtG seem to be experiencing spontaneously arising pleasurable sensations these days: without meaning to color your perception of your personal experience nor place you on any path, I do think this sort of kundalini report and stable-ish mindstate indicates a practice heading for some event you will be unable to deny/forget to yourself (and aggrandizing it would simply delay the path with a séjour into cognitive superiority...yeah, I said "séjour" just to make cognitive superiority real ;). It will also have beneficial "fall-out" in the following months (though not dukkha-free: I totally get the four-stage insight model and still see the hindrances and dukkha of my own current experience/causations and am waaay "not done yet!" (quoted bit said as if yelling from the bathroom)). To me, these distinct occasions have had the quality of happening to me-- not me finding or detecting anything nor me being able to cause them by labeling, "this is it". These events seem to happen to me, to this cognating, reified, conditioned/ing Katy, and I am just left, like, "Wow: you go, Generic Brain on meditation! You go!" I,Katy am my mind's own limited cheerleader. Hoorah ;)

I don't know if you can relate to this: When I am looking for a "this is it" or active in labeling "is this it?" "am I there?", then I am doing "thinking-with-craving/wanting/tether/fetter" and stepping away from the practice in those moments. It's perfectly natural to do this. For example, the pleasurable and spontaneous sensations did not continue indefinitely for me; for me, they did stop after a few weeks...and I knew "dissatisfaction in equanimity" and I realized: um, must not have been stream entry. Boo, but true. So, I just started practicing in earnest again - a little resigned, a little frustrated, but then in earnest again. The mind remembered (probably thanks to dopamine reactions from the months of preceding practice), "Well, this practice is how equanimity happened and single-point (and whatever) so, I guess I'll just keep trying and que sera sera."

Well, shebang. That worked. That's what keeps working for me.

Yet...even three months after the last shift, I found my own self-inflicted dissatisfaction in that shift by stepping out of the practice and perseverating on wanting some external validation! It's a little funny. And I see it as a totally natural consequence of this mind's latent and gross habits. I'm not making fun of myself, just chuckling at the habits, how deep they are.

Only this last Friday it occurred to me to ask, why am I not living in jhana all the time? I know how to trigger it now. It is very peaceful and well more skillful than anything I could've thought of, personally, so why am I not seeing if there can be jhana or Bayia-style all the time? Such a mind seems to contain inherent metta. Hmmm.

So, there is this serious side about practice and habits and hindrances, too: that I have this amazing opportunity in which to train the mind. Why waste a moment thinking about the practice, when the doing is so clearly beneficial?
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John Mac, modified 11 Years ago at 6/22/12 2:38 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/22/12 2:38 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 30 Join Date: 2/16/12 Recent Posts
Haha. Amusing and helpful!

That form of noting, seeing the craving behind "wanting" progress... yeah, that definitely touches a nerve.


Why waste a moment thinking about the practice, when the doing is so clearly beneficial?


Haha, I'm not so sure about this one! I'm guessing I'm taking this a little too literally, but directing thoughts towards "life management": thinking about / working out where all this is going in my life plan... seems pretty crazy not to that?

Admittedly, "mindful thinking" is really hard.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 6/22/12 5:19 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/22/12 3:16 PM

RE: Stream Entry: Going for it.

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Haha, I'm not so sure about this one!

Ah, I think that question is directed more for me, my practice! Oops. Somebody may need to get her own thread...emoticon


I'm guessing I'm taking this a little too literally, but directing thoughts towards "life management": thinking about / working out where all this is going in my life plan... seems pretty crazy not to that?
Yes! skillful.

Anywho, gently proceeding with gradual and/or natural increases in effort is great, in my opinion. For example, sometimes there is sitting in the "boring" practice. This is very useful, like dusting. Other times there is sitting with the painful knowledges of suffering. This is very useful. Sometimes there is sitting in blissed-out sensations. This is useful. Jhana Some forms of meditation are building concentration; a lot of concentration develops after the high and low "wow" factors dissipate (because one is getting used to them and can just let go of these distractions) and one can just focus on the object.

As you know, jhana are not said to be not necessary for stream-entry, but Gotama advocated them.

So, I hope I haven't derailed your practice and wish you the best in it.


edit: this color and strikeoutx2

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