Also I've been doing vippassana for so long that my mind just wants to notice every damn thing and not just the senstions around my nostrils. Is this a problem?

does anyone have any other recomendations?

DOH! How could I forget the excellent "The Genreal All purpose Jhana Thread" right here on the DhO?

You've summarized some aspects of the debate above. I spent a lot of time waiting for a "light" nimitta to manifest, merge with the anapana spot and then take me into absorption; if I continued in that mode, I'd probably still be "waiting" for it to happen. It is my understanding that this approach is best done in retreat, and even then, under optimal retreat conditions, it is a gradual process.

The line between access concentration and first jhana is drawn in different places by different individuals. But what i do know, experientially, is that you can use the breath to get the nice sensation and use the nice sensation to get your foot in the door; the soft jhanas can then enable you to cultivate one poinedness that will then take you deeper.

PS (...) maybe you can answer a question for me, what is an attention wave? I feel like I should know or that the understanding is floating in front of my eyes just missing the appropriate words.

Because of my illness I have to spend a lot of my time sitting down so I need a project that does not involve too much physical activity and is intellectually stimulating, doing Jhana plus the associated study appears to fit the bill.

Hi Howard:



Attention wave: this is not really my phrase. People have used it here on the site, and in Daniel's book there are several reference to wave-like comparisons (pages 17, 207, 225...). I think Daniel addresses this phrase someone on the site and what he means when he uses it.

I can only understand this phrase as a form of delay between attention and the object. If one's attention is exactly adhered to the object (and, in my experience, this has come about through a process of loss of oneself (such constantly re-placing one's thinking/feeling activity of mind on breathing or at the sense faculties as they are tripped by their respective sense objects, for examples) and not by a process of adding to oneself a skill of concentration (though that budding skill of concentration is what results), then it is as though that which was called and perceived as "attention" --- (and which "attention" can a) follow sensations, b) be able to perceive sensations from the vantage of being distinct from them and c) thus describe sensations as 'waves' (an observer's view causes perception of form and consequently causes naming) ---- that distinct "attention-which-can-perceive-waveness" becomes may transform into a commissure-occurring (an ongoingness) between viewer and object and there are no longer two separate entities (sensation and attention), rather there is now a process occurring that causes two entities to become a magnetizing commissure (and I am not saying that I and object "become one", yet the "bridging" does cause two objects to be perceived empty of duality or separation. I think the process could be called "bridging" when attention is in commissure with its object, and it could be called attention wave when there is an ability to "follow the sensations" (which comprises a separation between attention and object). But that is very semantic and it may well be that people who use the phrase "attention wave" intend the same event of connecting. Does that make sense cognitively, if not in your experience?


Certainly, this makes a lot of sense. I have often experience sensations where “me” appears to be searching for stimulation and then “me” appears to be responding to stimulation. It’s a bit like a light flashing on and off; me, it, me, it, me, it ect. Or it appears to be a bunch of parallel processes, one of which is “me” and this “me” then samples the other processes sequentially and builds a picture of reality. There also appears to be a time lag between the sampling or the flashing or what have you. This sounds a bit like an attention wave, but semantics get in the way as usual.
In Dzogchen the whole lot collapses under its own weight. Sensations appear independent, perfect, new born and delightful. “Structure,” stops having any meaning. I think this is why I was getting confused as a wave function does not necessarily imply structure, so I figured it might be a non-dual phenomenon. It looks like the attention wave is a description of dualistic consciousness and this now makes a lot more sense, so thank you.
I’m not sure about the commissure thing though, this sounds a bit like non-dual, but from my experience there is no point putting dual and non-dual in the same ball park so I don’t know if I’m really getting what you are describing. In Dzogchen all sensations appear totally independent with not connection or “bridge” at all, how this stacks with dependent arising I have no idea, but I see what I see.


Further to the Shaila Catherine comments, you might like Richard Shankman's book on Samadhi. He discusses on pgs 80-81 some of the differences between Vissudhimagga jhana and sutta jhana and how those arose (translating kaya). In the back of the book practitioners like Ajhan Brahmavamso (AB's) comment on their experience of these two views of jhana (including nimitta).

Thanks for the tip.

Ajhan Brahmavamso was a student of Ajhan Chah and Ajhan Chah's mastery over malaria inspired me during a roughly 3-yr sickness. Here is the link is to Ajahn Jayasaro recounting the story, which story starts around 3min and 15sec.
Related to illness, not knowing one iota of what ails you (but thinking of this when you mention the psych aspects) and not having any healthcare license whatesoever, you might consider the ketogenic diet (KD) (though it is not for diabetics without very attentive medical supervision, even hospitalized supervision - I don't know). I did this diet by accident through by trial and error and it worked, then someone here on the DhO told me about "ketogenic diet"; after looking it up, I realized I had been doing KD on/off and getting progressively healthier. There is much research on it, and currently Oxford is testing it in regards to Parkinson's Disease. KD is also a well-known seizure therapy and there is abundant anecdotal evidence of its aid in Alzheimer's Disease and some aggressive cancers (e.g., GBMs).


I have something called Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, which is exactly that. There are a raft of symptoms, some more significant than others but the significance can change rapidly over time. This gives rise to high levels of anxiety and frustration. The “firm noticing” really helps with this uncertainly and helps the underlying condition a little. I will certainly check out your suggestions, I’m always looking into ways of using practice to understand this better.

Hmm ketogenic diet does not sound so good to me, with CFS you really need your carbs.



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edits: in red and purple. I would also like to say that it is best to understand my comments (if they are understandable) as quite novice. I have, in only my opinion, just become trainable.

Here are two sources which I have recently found helpful:

Ven. Bhante Henepola Gunaratana's doctoral dissertation, A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation summarizes the ancient texts very clearly.

Essentials of insight meditation practice: a pragmatic approach to vipassana by Ven. Sujiva, though generally geared toward insight, contains an excellent discussion of the difference between concentration and insight practice, especially in chapters 12 & 13.

Although I haven't actually read it yet, I am looking at a copy of Wisdom Wide and Deep right here and just flipping through it I can't imagine that Shaila Catherine has missed anything from the traditional point of view. Though undoubtedly authoritative, it just seems staggeringly complex, doesn't it?

I've had the jhana factors of joy and happiness arise in the last few days but they have been rather slippery.

Moving on then. So the nice sensation, is it a field thing, or rooted in any particular spot on the body? Is it body bliss? Is it "mental" pleasure? Not sure what that is. I'd love to know how it happened to you personally .

Mate, thanks. Maybe I shouldn't get so hung up on what Shaila Catherine says, although she is very readable. The issue with joy, rapture, happiness ect appears to have a solution, for me in any case. You will probably hate me for this. I've been doing insight on and off for about 20 years. Frequently during that time joy ect. has arisen sponteaniously, the standard response in vippassana is "uh-huh" and then carry on with the practice. I did not occur to me that this is the same as the piti and sukha that I've been looking for with Jhana practice. I just had to "allow" myself to see it. This makes sense as piti has to arise somewhere in your sensory awareness and if you are too focused on your object, like I was, It just will not be seen. Forcing the issue is so dumb.

Yes this sounds familiar. I'm finding piti rising a lot more now. Interestingly when I "see" a hinderance and it dissolves I get a little pulse of pleasure. Maybe its the physical sensation of smugness. Joke.

I find that I'm holding my central focus and the pleasure as a dual support at the moment. The piti/suka is not quite self sustaining. Overall this is proving to be a lot more fun than I thought it was going to be. I'm so used to po-faced insight, this feels overdue.