1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

T Dan S-, modified 12 Years ago at 3/22/12 11:07 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/22/12 11:07 PM

1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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Noticed a fair number of people with practice threads playing around with access/1st/2nd, so I expect this will be helpful to some people, as I was a little surprised.

Comparing MCTB's take on 1st to Ian And's thread (and the article he links to: here: http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/janas.html)


MCTB's description of 1st jhana also happens to begin the section on all jhanas, and attempts lay some groundwork for talking about future jhanas. This breaks the flow of the descriptions at times, and may hinder understanding for someone new to the material, as it did when I read this almost a year ago.

Leigh Brasington seems to be going at it with a more direct, "here is what it is, here is what you do" tone (explain definition->explain relevancy->give directions->repeat), but will be harder to digest without some basic familiarity with pali terms. MCTB was written for accessibility of course. Both texts have different goals and I feel they accomplished them.

Anyway, for whatever reason (learning style, foundation set by MCTB's treatment of the material, experience), I found the latter article filled in a lot of gaps in my understanding, and would highly recommend it to anyone interested in accessing jhana but putting off reading such a dense wall of text.

Breakdown of the instructions.
To me:
MCTB seems to go:
-Stay with the breath->cultivate and enjoy the pleasant sensations that arise->keep doing this, and "it is as though the mind 'sees' the first jhana and grabs on to it".->you slip in and note 5 factors (of applied effort, sustained effort, attention, rapture, happiness, concentration)

Ian And/Brasington seems to go:
->Stay with the breath->cultivate same sensations (with more emphasis on specific bodily stuff like 3rd eye activity)-> once you have the sensations, drop the breath ("switch from object", the only thing that matters is "don't let yourself get distracted from the pleasure", which is a very different kind of effort but still effort), let/expect it to build up and release in this burst of ecstasy, the text giving special attention to 2 aspects (piti and sukha, or physical and emotional bliss, further noting piti arises first).


They're both describing the same thing, but in practice the beginner going off the first instructions is likely going to apply a lot more effort trying to clamp the mind down on the object. The 2nd set of instructions also gives the mediator more concrete concepts to work with; for example, knowing that I'm looking specifically for a buildup, and release of piti followed by sukha can be helpful, compared to a metaphor for the mind automatically slipping into 1st or 'grabbing onto it'.

I'll add that I read the thread about 5 hours ago, decided to test it out, and very shortly got into the hardest 1st/2nd I've experienced outside of a retreat. It also really went down exactly like the text said.
Beginners will have a much easier time self diagnosing if given a set things that go "well this happens, then this, then this", which I feel the 2nd set of instructions does a better job of.
Jim W, modified 12 Years ago at 3/23/12 5:46 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/23/12 5:46 AM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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Hi Daniel,

Thanks for posting this - I found it quite useful having recently got to jhana states.

All the best,

Jim.
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Ian And, modified 12 Years ago at 3/23/12 2:08 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/23/12 2:08 PM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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Daniel T:

MCTB's description of 1st jhana also happens to begin the section on all jhanas, and attempts lay some groundwork for talking about future jhanas. This breaks the flow of the descriptions at times, and may hinder understanding for someone new to the material, as it did when I read this almost a year ago.

Leigh Brasington seems to be going at it with a more direct, "here is what it is, here is what you do" tone (explain definition->explain relevancy->give directions->repeat), but will be harder to digest without some basic familiarity with pali terms. MCTB was written for accessibility of course. Both texts have different goals and I feel they accomplished them.

Anyway, for whatever reason (learning style, foundation set by MCTB's treatment of the material, experience), I found the latter article filled in a lot of gaps in my understanding, and would highly recommend it to anyone interested in accessing jhana but putting off reading such a dense wall of text.

Yes, filling in the gaps of understanding. That's what it was meant to do. Happy to hear that it helped accomplished that for you! emoticon

Daniel T:

Ian And/Brasington seems to go:
->Stay with the breath->cultivate same sensations (with more emphasis on specific bodily stuff like 3rd eye activity)-> once you have the sensations, drop the breath ("switch from object", the only thing that matters is "don't let yourself get distracted from the pleasure", which is a very different kind of effort but still effort), let/expect it to build up and release in this burst of ecstasy, the text giving special attention to 2 aspects (piti and sukha, or physical and emotional bliss, further noting piti arises first).

Actually, you don't have to "drop" the breath altogether as it can remain in the background on the periphery so to speak. You'll understand this distinction better once you've gained more experience with this. Just switch (or re-adjust) your attention to focus on the pleasure sensation to help bring the mind into a concentrated (absorbed) mode. (I just wanted to clarify that for readers of your post.)

Daniel T:

I'll add that I read the thread about 5 hours ago, decided to test it out, and very shortly got into the hardest 1st/2nd I've experienced outside of a retreat. It also really went down exactly like the text said.

Happy to hear of your success. As you gain more experience entering this state, you should find it easier to establish at will.

Not to throw water on what you have characterized here, but it is important to note that one is manipulating or fabricating this experience within the mind so that it goes "down exactly like the text said" it will. This is what I mean by saying that one can enter this state AT WILL. What is important to note is that YOU are the one doing the manipulation simply by following and watching for the phenomena previously described to occur. And when it does occur in the way described, it triggers that automatic feedback loop that Leigh talks about in his piece. This feedback loop is what keeps you in 2nd jhana — and beyond 2nd jhana — as it is characterized in the suttas. It's that effortless experience of a hard concentration state.

One thing that helps one to gain this kind of AT WILL access to concentration states like this is the realization that the establishment of mindfulness (sati) before one begins to meditate is fundamentally at the foundation of this ability to ENTER AT WILL into a concentration state. By establishing mindfulness first, your meditation sessions will go much smoother and become more enriching than you could ever have imagined prior to having done this! What's interesting is that this instruction (for establishing mindfulness) is right in plain sight in the discourses:

"And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu abide contemplating the body as a body? Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. Breathing in long, he understands: 'I breathe in long'; or breathing out long, he understands: 'I breath out long.' "

. . . yet few people (meditation instructors) ever emphasize it enough to assist their students.

If anyone needs help in establishing mindfulness, be sure to look over the thread The Practical Aspects of Establishing Mindfulness where you should find plenty of food for thought and practice to help you with this accomplishment.
zolek do, modified 12 Years ago at 3/29/12 6:08 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/29/12 6:08 PM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

Post: 1 Join Date: 3/23/12 Recent Posts
sorry asking but what is MCTB ?
m m a, modified 12 Years ago at 3/29/12 8:12 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 3/29/12 8:11 PM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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James E P, modified 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 10:54 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 10:48 AM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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I've been reading alot on Jhana, as I've been having alot of positive experiences with Jhana and absorption. I would reccomend Dan's method.

Basically Pa-Auk Sayadaw (who teaches a variety of traditional Buddhist meditation techniques), which contrast the "dry insight approach" that Dan takes, recommends only using the breath and not shifting focus to Piti or any pleasurable emotions as the meditation object.

Knowing and Seeing by Pa-Auk Sayadaw:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/know-see.pdf

Two of his students wrote this book on Jhana practice:
http://www.amazon.ca/Practicing-Jhanas-Traditional-Concentration-Meditation/dp/159030733X

They say concentration can be broken and full Jhana absorption can not take place if you shift you focus from your object of meditation to the pleasurable sensation. Full Jhana Absorption, they characterize as being fully absorbed without any perception form the 5 senses, anything short of this is not full absorption. Now they say if you focus on Piti or rapture for instance, it can in fact bring about a strong sensation, but will not result in full absorption.

I would recommend this book if you wish to further your Jhana practice.

Leigh Brasington's technique as well the Sayadaw's seem to contradict each other. I personally would lean towards the Sayadaw's method, as he basically bases all of his practice around the Visuddhimagga, which is the most comprehensive summary of Buddha's meditation methods.
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 11:45 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 11:43 AM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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James:
Basically Pa-Auk Sayadaw (who teaches a variety of traditional Buddhist meditation techniques), which contrast the "dry insight approach" that Dan takes, recommends only using the breath and not shifting focus to Piti or any pleasurable emotions as the meditation object.


Hi James. I agree entirely. Over the last couple of days I've had chance to experiment with both approaches. Shifting to piti does not help me. It leads to an agitated, tense state not conducive to deep calm. Noticing piti with the breath (the factor of piti being caused by the breath, or the pleasant quality of the breath) has led to greater calm, deeper states and the promise of good things to come...


Two of his students wrote this book on Jhana practice:
http://www.amazon.ca/Practicing-Jhanas-Traditional-Concentration-Meditation/dp/159030733X


I found that book unhelpful. It's not the how-to I hoped it would be, more of an account of their accomplishments (which seem very nice, but not useful..).
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Ian And, modified 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 1:10 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 1:10 PM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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James E P:

They say concentration can be broken and full Jhana absorption can not take place if you shift you focus from your object of meditation to the pleasurable sensation.

That is just plain poppycock. Concentration is not broken when, for instance, one shifts one's main attention from the breath to a pleasant sensation in order to bring the mind into a calm abiding. While the breath may remain as a secondary object in the background, the pleasant sensation in the foreground, if it is followed, will help the mind to achieve the four factors of the first jhana as they are described in the discourses: viz. applied and sustained thought or attention (vitakka and vicara), elation/rapture (piti), and pleasure/happiness (sukha). From this, ideally one experiences inner tranquillity and unification of mind as the mind transitions to the second (stock description of) jhana. As piti fades out in the third stage of this progression, clear awareness, equanimity, and mindfulness ideally replace piti, leaving sukha remaining. As the disturbance of sukha fades away in reaching the quiet and profoundly still fourth level of this progression, one is left, ideally, with equanimity (that is, if one is concentrating on remaining equanimous) and mindfulness, the perfect setting in which to experience the progress of insight.

It might be noted that while one may be able to achieve these four levels of concentration (commonly described as "jhana"), one may, in the early stages of their practice, reach them without being able to discern all these various subtle changes through the four levels. Do not be concerned about this. Time and practice will correct this deficiency. Use the fourth level (of the establishment of samadhi concentration) to conduct contemplation on the truths of the Dhamma.

James E P:

Full Jhana Absorption, they characterize as being fully absorbed without any perception form the 5 senses, anything short of this is not full absorption.

The kind of "absorption" described above is not a characteristic of samatha meditation methods when applied to the concept of "absorption." The six senses can and do remain fully engaged during the "absorption" process; and generally will remain engaged (at least to some degree) until one reaches the so-called ninth jhanic level of sannavedayita nirodha (or the cessation of perception and feeling). Samatha meditation is designed to help calm and smooth the mind for insight meditation. Please be aware that there is a lot more involved with samatha/vipassana meditation than just bringing the mind into an "absorption" state. Absorption is practiced to help the mind become able to remain fixed on an object. I used it to help me condition the mind to establish mindfulness. Yet absorption isn't an end in and of itself. It's part of a whole process that one undergoes in the transformation of mental conditioning.

It is important to differentiate and understand that the kind of blank "absorption" described above (as opposed to samadhi concentration in firmly establishing the mind upon its object in order to gain insight about that object) will not benefit someone attempting to achieve awakening. How can they if their mind is cut off from perception of the six senses (which includes the very mind that one is attempting to re-condition). It is impossible to arrive at awakening from such a state. In fact, if a person takes these instructions seriously as the culminating of a path to achievement, they will likely only end up in slowing down their progress on the path toward awakening. Be aware that this can be a red herring approach when it comes to assisting people to wake up to the truth of the three characteristics, dependent co-arising, and the process of the five aggregates in mental processing.

A person is better off not offering second-hand instruction when they themselves have not experienced the instruction nor do they fully know or understand what they are talking about. Do the members here a favor and only offer first hand observations from your own direct experience. When you know better, you will do better. (This is just a suggestion.)
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Ian And, modified 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 1:25 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 1:25 PM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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Bagpuss The Gnome:

Shifting to piti does not help me. It leads to an agitated, tense state not conducive to deep calm. Noticing piti with the breath (the factor of piti being caused by the breath, or the pleasant quality of the breath) has led to greater calm, deeper states and the promise of good things to come...

Just to clarify for others reading these comments, I think we're talking about the same thing here, Bagpuss.

In my comment I did not mean to imply switching the attention totally to piti (if it can be discerned) as that can lead to a distracting agitated state. The key is to allow the pleasant sensation to draw one into a concentrated pleasant abiding state of mind/meditation/concentration just as you have described.
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 2:08 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 2:08 PM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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Ian:
In my comment I did not mean to imply switching the attention totally to piti (if it can be discerned) as that can lead to a distracting agitated state. The key is to allow the pleasant sensation to draw one into a concentrated pleasant abiding state of mind/meditation/concentration just as you have described.


Yep. I've been re reading some of your jhana thread today and this has led to good things. The focus on piti only was an unpleasant experience for me, though quite concentrating nonetheless. The key has been to "adjust the blend" of attention between the piti, sukkha and sensations of breath at the nostrils. It's like a constant gentle adjustment till it levels out and doesn't need so much tending, at which point sukkha becomes more dominant and the whole experience more calm/still.

From there it has led to a tingly bodily sensation that at first I took to be moving out of concentration into vipassana (and that could still have been the case some of the time) but now think is most likely 3rd jhana. Today I think I may have moved toward 4th (there's this odd uplifting experience and the body feels like it might be a bit less tied to it's physical boundaries --most interesting!) though it's a very immature state as of yet I think.

All this through the breath and that "tuning in" way of noticing the pleasantness of the process.
James E P, modified 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 2:27 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/2/12 2:18 PM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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Hi Ian,

I found your Jhana write up great and inspiring. I'm not trying to knock it, I'm far from mastering the Jhanas, but I do have some experience, with both natural concentration and directing my concentration to a jhanic factor and find this is a much quicker way to strengthen the factors. Granted I have only been formally sitting for a year and although the factors have naturally arisen in me since i started, I am now meditating long enough (~1 hour/day +) that I can put blocks towards building both concentration and insight separately.

Just to clarify they delineate concentration as per levels of intensity. For them shifting concentration from one object to another can severely cause the level of concentration to be diminished, and in their words, this might not allow full absorption in Jhana to occur. This is according to the authors Stephen Snyder and Tina Ramussen, who have been on a 2 month retreat with Pa-Auk Sayadaw. They go on to further remark that the level of absorption that they have experience during a 2 month retreat (with very little talking) was so complete that there certainly level so Jhanic intensity.

A person is better off not offering second-hand instruction when they themselves have not experienced the instruction nor do they fully know or understand what they are talking about. Do the members here a favor and only offer first hand observations from your own direct experience. When you know better, you will do better. (This is just a suggestion.)


I appreciate your feedback, I have been informally meditating for years and overtime have developed some decent concentration skills.....meditation teacher has said I have some developed concentration skills, which based on her years of experience is quite the compliment. Although I have been sitting formally for a shorter period, I have actually over long periods of time been able to achieve "Jhana" with concentration on a fixed subject pretty easily and can usually get Nimitta and Piti to arise quite quickly (almost at will), during meditation (and otherwise).

I sense a aire of defensiveness, don't take this as an attack on your method, I am not convinced Jhana must be worked on per-se explicitly and have used your method for strengthening the factors. I ascribe that insight and concentration both lead to a similar place. Now from the nature of the question and my experience I am going to side with the Sayadaw and Dan, based on their instructions for entering the 1st Jhana if there's a question to what I think the most pragmatic approach is. Naturally if full absorption must can be achieved, then it must not be exercised to that extent during vipassana, if you are practicing insight wet.
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Ian And, modified 11 Years ago at 4/3/12 11:33 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/3/12 11:33 PM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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James E P:
Hi Ian,

I found your Jhana write up great and inspiring. I'm not trying to knock it, I'm far from mastering the Jhanas, but I do have some experience, with both natural concentration and directing my concentration to a jhanic factor and find this is a much quicker way to strengthen the factors.

Ahh, now I understand what you were saying. My apologies. Yes, I concur; the method you described can be a "quicker way to strengthen the factors."

I was referring to the overall process, assuming the factors to have already been developed and not a problem.
James E P, modified 11 Years ago at 4/4/12 7:21 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/4/12 7:21 AM

RE: 1st Jhana in MCTB, vs All Purpose Jhana Thread

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