COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video - Discussion
COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Daniel M Ingram, modified 1 Month ago at 8/31/24 7:53 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/31/24 7:53 PM
COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 3280 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Dear All,
I have heard so many stories of people going on retreats or to retreat centers only to get COVID, and some have had their practice capabilities degrade right along with their health after, so, frustrated by this, and inspired by the spirit of health, wellness, and promoting good outcomes, Sam and I, with the help of Melissa, made this video and this information page.
May this inspire people to feel empowered in the face of this ongoing pandemic. This is not medical advice, just some randos on the internet with opinions.
Remember, the COVID pandemic is an evolving thing, so keep your wits about you, do your own research, keep up with what is going on, and make good choices.
Enjoy and be safe out there,
Daniel
I have heard so many stories of people going on retreats or to retreat centers only to get COVID, and some have had their practice capabilities degrade right along with their health after, so, frustrated by this, and inspired by the spirit of health, wellness, and promoting good outcomes, Sam and I, with the help of Melissa, made this video and this information page.
May this inspire people to feel empowered in the face of this ongoing pandemic. This is not medical advice, just some randos on the internet with opinions.
Remember, the COVID pandemic is an evolving thing, so keep your wits about you, do your own research, keep up with what is going on, and make good choices.
Enjoy and be safe out there,
Daniel
iarbaverde _ _, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 9:49 AM
Created 6 Days ago at 10/7/24 12:35 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 6 Join Date: 6/24/24 Recent Posts
Daniel, when I first read this I thought that your argumentation is a bit crazy. At least for me, after some 4 episodes, COVID has lost all its teeth.
Still, I did it. Today in our sitting group there was one sitting near me sniffing and snoozing. I thought well, it happens; unmanaged allergy, Ambrosia etc. When the lady pulled out of her pocket a pack of tissues during the break after the first session, I got the clue and I left. Wish me luck to be uncontaminated.
Still, I did it. Today in our sitting group there was one sitting near me sniffing and snoozing. I thought well, it happens; unmanaged allergy, Ambrosia etc. When the lady pulled out of her pocket a pack of tissues during the break after the first session, I got the clue and I left. Wish me luck to be uncontaminated.
Daniel M Ingram, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 10:51 AM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 10:51 AM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 3280 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
As requested: Good luck not being infected.
More info, for those who still might harbor a bit of curiosity about why an infectious disease epidemiologist and physician who keeps up with the mainstream and fringe COVID literature might still think getting COVID is still not a good idea, this simplified for public consumption here:
The John Snow Project
Be safe out there,
Daniel
More info, for those who still might harbor a bit of curiosity about why an infectious disease epidemiologist and physician who keeps up with the mainstream and fringe COVID literature might still think getting COVID is still not a good idea, this simplified for public consumption here:
The John Snow Project
Be safe out there,
Daniel
A A, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 10:58 AM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 10:58 AM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 3 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Posts
Got curious and googled Daniel's name, found his website, was surprised to see covid seriousness stuff, wanted to email
him asking if he ever heard anything about retreats that take it seriously, saw the FAQ that recommended posting here instead, decided to search first, noticed this thread with Daniel active the very instant before I searched!
So has anyone managed to find retreat centers that take it seriously? Or is there just not enough of a business model for it?
him asking if he ever heard anything about retreats that take it seriously, saw the FAQ that recommended posting here instead, decided to search first, noticed this thread with Daniel active the very instant before I searched!
So has anyone managed to find retreat centers that take it seriously? Or is there just not enough of a business model for it?
Olivier S, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 3:49 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 12:57 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 981 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
When I look at COVID from the perspective of "life expenctency in the US has been declining for a few years because of obesity and because its government caused an opioid crisis", and then from the other perspective of "if we keep consuming as much energy as we currently do [and AI will add a thick layer to this most likely] then millions to billions may suffer or die because of chaotic climate change", it sort of starts to lose the sense of urgency around it.
One of the likely consequences of our current business as usual model, is the emergence of diseases like COVID or potentially much worse in the near future. So in terms of priorities I would think the broader view of "reducing energy consumption" to avoid its incalculable, but likely not great and likely worse than covid, potential consequences is of higher ethical and public health import, than the issue of covid and "getting everyone a high-tech mask while trying to find a solution to this one virus". Not saying there are no bad consequences to COVID of course, just that it is about to get much more common for things like this to occurr globally if we don't act in a very intelligent and concerted way now, which we are not at all. Hence my perspective on AI: ethical mandates and all!
Also NPIs such as lockdowns and health freaking passes had terrible public health consequences, "NPIs were found to have considerable adverse consequences for mental health, physical activity, and overweight and obesity" (ÓhAiseada et al., 2023), with global youth not having recovered from the negative psychological consequences of lockdowns and craziness at all (Sapien Labs Report, 2023), and yet in places like France where our "president" at one point said "non-vaccinated people are not responsible, and irresponsible people are not citizens anymore", at a time when those of us followign the research new for certain that there was no benefit in the risks/benefits balance of the vaccine for people under 25 and yet they were forcing people that age and younger to get vaccinated, creating a sort of mass psychosis (e.g. my girlfriend went to the doctor for something that wasn't covid when the health pass was still enforced, and he almost insulted her, almost refused to check or treat her, because she wasnt vaccinated [she was 26] at a time when, again, those of us followign the science, already new that the vaccine did not prevent transmission, despite what the french government said...). Ah, these good times when at some family members' birthday party I would be accused of being an "anti-vaxxer" when, again, I spent hours a day following the science. And there was no public apology or recognition of what happen or discussion of the events, it was just covered up by "new pressing world events" — watching all of this occur did more to damage my health, relationships, sense of hope, etc., than the couple of times I got Covid.
I'll quote at length a paper by John Ioannidis and others here:
Thoughts?
refs:
ÓhAiseadha, C., Quinn, G. A., Connolly, R., Wilson, A., Connolly, M., Soon, W., & Hynds, P. (2023). Unintended Consequences of COVID-19 Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions (NPIs) for Population Health and Health Inequalities. International journal of environmental research and public health, 20(7), 5223. https://doi.org/10.3390/ijerph20075223
Saltelli, A., Sturmberg, J.P., Sarewitz, D. and Ioannidis, J.P.A. (2023), What did COVID-19 really teach us about science, evidence and society?. J Eval Clin Pract, 29: 1237-1239. https://doi.org/10.1111/jep.13876
Sapien Labs. (2024). The Mental State of the World in 2023. A Perspective on Internet-Enabled Populations (Global Mind Project). https://mentalstateoftheworld.report
One of the likely consequences of our current business as usual model, is the emergence of diseases like COVID or potentially much worse in the near future. So in terms of priorities I would think the broader view of "reducing energy consumption" to avoid its incalculable, but likely not great and likely worse than covid, potential consequences is of higher ethical and public health import, than the issue of covid and "getting everyone a high-tech mask while trying to find a solution to this one virus". Not saying there are no bad consequences to COVID of course, just that it is about to get much more common for things like this to occurr globally if we don't act in a very intelligent and concerted way now, which we are not at all. Hence my perspective on AI: ethical mandates and all!
Also NPIs such as lockdowns and health freaking passes had terrible public health consequences, "NPIs were found to have considerable adverse consequences for mental health, physical activity, and overweight and obesity" (ÓhAiseada et al., 2023), with global youth not having recovered from the negative psychological consequences of lockdowns and craziness at all (Sapien Labs Report, 2023), and yet in places like France where our "president" at one point said "non-vaccinated people are not responsible, and irresponsible people are not citizens anymore", at a time when those of us followign the research new for certain that there was no benefit in the risks/benefits balance of the vaccine for people under 25 and yet they were forcing people that age and younger to get vaccinated, creating a sort of mass psychosis (e.g. my girlfriend went to the doctor for something that wasn't covid when the health pass was still enforced, and he almost insulted her, almost refused to check or treat her, because she wasnt vaccinated [she was 26] at a time when, again, those of us followign the science, already new that the vaccine did not prevent transmission, despite what the french government said...). Ah, these good times when at some family members' birthday party I would be accused of being an "anti-vaxxer" when, again, I spent hours a day following the science. And there was no public apology or recognition of what happen or discussion of the events, it was just covered up by "new pressing world events" — watching all of this occur did more to damage my health, relationships, sense of hope, etc., than the couple of times I got Covid.
I'll quote at length a paper by John Ioannidis and others here:
During the pandemic crisis of 2020–2023, it is likely that the successes of biomedical science were more than offset by its failures. These failures continue to undermine once-powerful ideals and hopes for science's role in societal betterment. Here, we dissect the underpinnings of these failures and argue that restoring such ideals first requires systemic reform of science itself.A new scientific elite of media-savvy experts from fields like virology and modelling (with or without relevant credentials) gained visibility and influence in political circles. The narrow, reductionist disciplinary and sometimes partisan perspectives of these scientists and ‘influencers’ helped justify the COVID-19 policies that allocated sacrifice, privation and suffering across all walks of society and hundreds of millions of lives. The consequences for education, healthcare, small businesses, social life and democratic politics itself were often disastrous. Consequences were most acutely felt by vulnerable populations, from factory workers to school children, the old and the poor. [...]
Supposedly science-based responses to COVID-19 in turn built upon and amplified deeper contradictions at the intersections of science and public health. Some affluent nations with generously funded science, such as the United States and United Kingdom, had been experiencing slow-downs and even reversals of gains in life expectancy that predate COVID-1910, 11. These trends, unthinkable 25 years ago, both reflect and exacerbate pre-existing and entrenched health inequities. For example, life expectancy for men in London's affluent neighbourhoods is 18 years longer than for those in poor areas11. Such disparities have multiple causes, but the political economy of medical science is a critical part of the story12. Investments in health sciences focus overwhelmingly on reductionist, molecular-genetic approaches to cures, which can generate status for scientists and profits for companies, but have minimal benefits for population health and may even widen inequalities. Medical science delivered to society through market mechanisms continually inflates healthcare costs, another driver of inequities. Additional tensions at the science-health interface include misuse of direct products of science itself, such as opioids, and iatrogenic disorders. Indeed, during the lockdown, iatrogenic disease may have acquired new, unprecedented dimensions13. Yet study and communication of these disorders during COVID was too often demonized by high-level decision-makers and their scientific advisors, which in turn clouded our ability to openly debate the balance of impacts of the massive public health interventions imposed across large segments of the society.Can the systemic science–policy–public rift that became so acutely visible during COVID-19 be healed? To pursue this goal, democracies will need to embrace, over the long term, a new, different political economy of science, one that moves away from the current commodification of incentives and objectives29, 36, 37, acknowledges tensions between market incentives and public values, and accepts the limits of specialized expertise—and especially the danger of new hordes of influencers made possible by the new media38—for guiding society through challenges such as COVID-19.A necessary first step in this healing process would be for scientists and science advocates to recognize our own complicity in having supported the emergence of these problems, and in so doing to embrace the need for system redesign. Absent such commitments, we should expect a continued balkanization of science, expertise and truth, and will be left to hope that societies can discover sources of cohesion and coherence outside of the remit of science.
Supposedly science-based responses to COVID-19 in turn built upon and amplified deeper contradictions at the intersections of science and public health. Some affluent nations with generously funded science, such as the United States and United Kingdom, had been experiencing slow-downs and even reversals of gains in life expectancy that predate COVID-1910, 11. These trends, unthinkable 25 years ago, both reflect and exacerbate pre-existing and entrenched health inequities. For example, life expectancy for men in London's affluent neighbourhoods is 18 years longer than for those in poor areas11. Such disparities have multiple causes, but the political economy of medical science is a critical part of the story12. Investments in health sciences focus overwhelmingly on reductionist, molecular-genetic approaches to cures, which can generate status for scientists and profits for companies, but have minimal benefits for population health and may even widen inequalities. Medical science delivered to society through market mechanisms continually inflates healthcare costs, another driver of inequities. Additional tensions at the science-health interface include misuse of direct products of science itself, such as opioids, and iatrogenic disorders. Indeed, during the lockdown, iatrogenic disease may have acquired new, unprecedented dimensions13. Yet study and communication of these disorders during COVID was too often demonized by high-level decision-makers and their scientific advisors, which in turn clouded our ability to openly debate the balance of impacts of the massive public health interventions imposed across large segments of the society.Can the systemic science–policy–public rift that became so acutely visible during COVID-19 be healed? To pursue this goal, democracies will need to embrace, over the long term, a new, different political economy of science, one that moves away from the current commodification of incentives and objectives29, 36, 37, acknowledges tensions between market incentives and public values, and accepts the limits of specialized expertise—and especially the danger of new hordes of influencers made possible by the new media38—for guiding society through challenges such as COVID-19.A necessary first step in this healing process would be for scientists and science advocates to recognize our own complicity in having supported the emergence of these problems, and in so doing to embrace the need for system redesign. Absent such commitments, we should expect a continued balkanization of science, expertise and truth, and will be left to hope that societies can discover sources of cohesion and coherence outside of the remit of science.
Thoughts?
refs:
ÓhAiseadha, C., Quinn, G. A., Connolly, R., Wilson, A., Connolly, M., Soon, W., & Hynds, P. (2023). Unintended Consequences of COVID-19 Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions (NPIs) for Population Health and Health Inequalities. International journal of environmental research and public health, 20(7), 5223. https://doi.org/10.3390/ijerph20075223
Saltelli, A., Sturmberg, J.P., Sarewitz, D. and Ioannidis, J.P.A. (2023), What did COVID-19 really teach us about science, evidence and society?. J Eval Clin Pract, 29: 1237-1239. https://doi.org/10.1111/jep.13876
Sapien Labs. (2024). The Mental State of the World in 2023. A Perspective on Internet-Enabled Populations (Global Mind Project). https://mentalstateoftheworld.report
Martin, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 1:38 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 1:38 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 1002 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Interesting question! First, I would say that there is a pretty good history of societies discovering "sources of cohesion and coherence outside of the remit of science" and that would be my first go-to. It may be more useful for us to ask ourselves, "how are our neighbors feeling right now" than, "what does science tell us are the optimal ways in which our neighbors should behave." I think you are right in saying there was too much of the latter at the turn of the decade. That is to say, we may want to take a non-systematic, small-scale approach to reduce suffering in ourselves and those around us. An individual doctor making it easy for specific people to take precautions that match their situations, by giving information on how to avoid getting an illness, is a great example of this kind of action. Other examples would be helping specific people (friends, family, co-workers) to feel less afraid in the face of uncertainty, getting together in groups to practice spiritual endeavors, sports, dancing, singing, etc., as well as taking the time to understand a wide range of viewpoints so that our understanding can be a bridge between divided groups.
A A, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 1:55 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 1:55 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 3 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Posts
Is this the right thread to be discussing whether COVID is serious and mitigation strategies are warranted?
Olivier S, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 3:12 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 3:03 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 981 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Why not? My post is a reaction to the John Snow website posted above, so seems like a pretty natural riff off to me.
I work with Daniel. Yet I've never told him my thoughts about this before, I think this can make for an interesting discussion.
ps: the reason I mentioned AI up there is because this is a topic that has come up I think at every single one of any meeting I've had with Daniel for the past... year or so? He knows I think we should not develop it, and I explained it is for ethical reasons, but the ethical reasons have not been discussed yet, and this feels like a good place to do it, as the reasons for sharing these covid resources is mostly ethical, right? We're also fabout to submit an article on "the ethical mandate to deepen our understanding of emergent phenomena" and given the lots of discussions about ethics we've had, this question the relative weigth that should be assigned to the risks of e.g. covid vs AI development (and underlying this is of course the question of energy and climate catastrophe) from the ethical lense, has the potential to be a very interesting convo, methinks.
I work with Daniel. Yet I've never told him my thoughts about this before, I think this can make for an interesting discussion.
ps: the reason I mentioned AI up there is because this is a topic that has come up I think at every single one of any meeting I've had with Daniel for the past... year or so? He knows I think we should not develop it, and I explained it is for ethical reasons, but the ethical reasons have not been discussed yet, and this feels like a good place to do it, as the reasons for sharing these covid resources is mostly ethical, right? We're also fabout to submit an article on "the ethical mandate to deepen our understanding of emergent phenomena" and given the lots of discussions about ethics we've had, this question the relative weigth that should be assigned to the risks of e.g. covid vs AI development (and underlying this is of course the question of energy and climate catastrophe) from the ethical lense, has the potential to be a very interesting convo, methinks.
Bahiya Baby, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 6:53 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 3:34 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 681 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
I'm not sure but it looks like we're going to do it anyway.
Culturally I found this such a jarring event. The way the media and people of influence used "data" and fear mongering to control the population. It felt like and still feels like gaslighting. With a history of asthma and a family history of heart and lung issues, I am to some extent an at risk person. My father who has had a severe heart attack and cancer several times is more at risk than me. My grandmother who has had several heart attacks among other issues is even more at risk. Yet we all recovered from Covid and each in our own way have failed to recover from the lockdowns.
I was not exactly a pro-establishment type before but it is certainly much more difficult to trust politicians, pharmaceutical companies, even medical professionals these days. You don't forget being locked in your house and legally strongarmed into taking experimental medications. (I have never been anti-vax, I travel a lot, I am super vaccinated.)
I take COVID safety relatively seriously. I only had it once and that was earlier this year. I have nearly died from the flu more than once and I used to get it all the time, flu shot or no. I found the only thing that stopped me getting the flu so often was really taking care of my health. The same approach to health seemed to bare me through the "COVID years" without getting sick.
I'm in my 30's. I do not have ANY friends, or even family, who now believe the mainstream narrative about COVID. Whether they think it was a total fuck up or some more malicious plot, not one of them buys into the mainstream narrative around it, nor do they fear covid, as they have all now had it, some of them several times. (Most of them followed all the rules and practiced strict COVID safety)
I can safely say, all of them came out of that experience with their trust in science, governments, medical professionals and pharmaceutical companies totally betrayed. They now either think all these entities are malicious or just utterly incompetent.
And I think honestly this is what's so interesting about COVID.
What the people in my home say about COVID, what the people in my neighborhood say, what the people I meet at fencing, in the gym, at the bar say is entirely out of alignment with the mainstream narrative.
That is frightening. I have not met someone who entertains the totality of the mainstream COVID narrative since maybe the first year of COVID.
Culturally I found this such a jarring event. The way the media and people of influence used "data" and fear mongering to control the population. It felt like and still feels like gaslighting. With a history of asthma and a family history of heart and lung issues, I am to some extent an at risk person. My father who has had a severe heart attack and cancer several times is more at risk than me. My grandmother who has had several heart attacks among other issues is even more at risk. Yet we all recovered from Covid and each in our own way have failed to recover from the lockdowns.
I was not exactly a pro-establishment type before but it is certainly much more difficult to trust politicians, pharmaceutical companies, even medical professionals these days. You don't forget being locked in your house and legally strongarmed into taking experimental medications. (I have never been anti-vax, I travel a lot, I am super vaccinated.)
I take COVID safety relatively seriously. I only had it once and that was earlier this year. I have nearly died from the flu more than once and I used to get it all the time, flu shot or no. I found the only thing that stopped me getting the flu so often was really taking care of my health. The same approach to health seemed to bare me through the "COVID years" without getting sick.
I'm in my 30's. I do not have ANY friends, or even family, who now believe the mainstream narrative about COVID. Whether they think it was a total fuck up or some more malicious plot, not one of them buys into the mainstream narrative around it, nor do they fear covid, as they have all now had it, some of them several times. (Most of them followed all the rules and practiced strict COVID safety)
I can safely say, all of them came out of that experience with their trust in science, governments, medical professionals and pharmaceutical companies totally betrayed. They now either think all these entities are malicious or just utterly incompetent.
And I think honestly this is what's so interesting about COVID.
What the people in my home say about COVID, what the people in my neighborhood say, what the people I meet at fencing, in the gym, at the bar say is entirely out of alignment with the mainstream narrative.
That is frightening. I have not met someone who entertains the totality of the mainstream COVID narrative since maybe the first year of COVID.
Bahiya Baby, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 6:35 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 5:34 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 681 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Lads I'm literally sitting in a cafe listening to two older women talk about how they haven't seen each other since COVID, how they don't see their friends anymore and how much they miss them. Either by incompetence or malice it was criminal.
I'm sorry, I don't normally speak about this stuff, nor do I like to. I'm just still angry. I'm still healing. The lockdowns fucked me up.
I'm sorry, I don't normally speak about this stuff, nor do I like to. I'm just still angry. I'm still healing. The lockdowns fucked me up.
shargrol, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 6:46 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 6:46 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 2668 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Laissez les bon temps roulez...
Okay I'll join in.
Yes, I totally agree about the loss of trust. Amazing. I remember watching the public messaging (as a worker associated with government organizations) and I was like: wow, this is such crap, this is how you completely lose the trust of everyone. What about talking to adults like they are adults?
What we needed was honest statements about what we knew and didn't know --- good expert communication requires a bit of humility and admiting that there are uncertainties...
But what amazes me is now we're four years past the big event, and I have yet to see the definitively written retrospection on what happened.
In my own circle, I remember the youngish colleague that killed himself due to the isolation. Sure, he wasn't totally solid, but he also had his legs cut from under him by the isolation. Also in my own circle, I remember the man who's wife got covid, he wasn't allowed to go to work because of it, so he invited his (elderly) father to come over and help him do home renovation with him, and the father died of covid. Such stupid deaths of both the youngish and elderly.
(I have many questions about the benefits and consequences of vaccines. I feel like there hasn't been an accounting of that either.)
So as you can see, I have a lot of thoughts and the range through all the ranges of the spectrum... but most of all,
I really would love to read something that comprehensively reported on what we all went through.
(Well, that was cathartic to write, but like most seemingly-cathartic things, I have no doubt it is mearly an illusion. )
Okay I'll join in.
Yes, I totally agree about the loss of trust. Amazing. I remember watching the public messaging (as a worker associated with government organizations) and I was like: wow, this is such crap, this is how you completely lose the trust of everyone. What about talking to adults like they are adults?
What we needed was honest statements about what we knew and didn't know --- good expert communication requires a bit of humility and admiting that there are uncertainties...
But what amazes me is now we're four years past the big event, and I have yet to see the definitively written retrospection on what happened.
In my own circle, I remember the youngish colleague that killed himself due to the isolation. Sure, he wasn't totally solid, but he also had his legs cut from under him by the isolation. Also in my own circle, I remember the man who's wife got covid, he wasn't allowed to go to work because of it, so he invited his (elderly) father to come over and help him do home renovation with him, and the father died of covid. Such stupid deaths of both the youngish and elderly.
(I have many questions about the benefits and consequences of vaccines. I feel like there hasn't been an accounting of that either.)
So as you can see, I have a lot of thoughts and the range through all the ranges of the spectrum... but most of all,
I really would love to read something that comprehensively reported on what we all went through.
(Well, that was cathartic to write, but like most seemingly-cathartic things, I have no doubt it is mearly an illusion. )
Bahiya Baby, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 7:32 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 7:06 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 681 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent PostsBut what amazes me is now we're four years past the big event, and I have yet to see the definitively written retrospection on what happened.
I think a large fraction of the population of planet earth would benefit from some really candid reporting on what happened. What happened, what went right, what went wrong, etc.
(I have many questions about the benefits and consequences of vaccines. I feel like there hasn't been an accounting of that either.)
I suspect some not insignificant portion of the above fraction would greatly appreciate this too.
It just fucking really seems like way too much money was paid to pharmaceutical companies by people whose job it is to appear trustworthy. I don't think any of the above parties are going to entertain the admission of any wrong doing.
One of the hardest lessons I have learnt in life is that you know you've been gaslit when the entity responsible refuses to address it, take responsibility for it, or acknowledge any fault of their own in it. You will seek closure and they will offer only obliviousness. Smokescreen.
It would be nice to see a little bit of honesty from medical professionals and politicians about the effectiveness of optimal health, fitness and diet in preventing serious illness. We have tonnes of scientific evidence to support this. We know that the people most at risk from Covid and other serious illnesses are obese, inactive and/or have nutritional deficiencies etc.
The world certainly has a health crisis but it is not the kind of health crisis that pharmaceuticals alone can fix.
We can lockdown the world over a complicated flu but there's new fast food joints opening up on every street, we drive around in vehicles that literally emit pollutants (do you know how dangerous sitting in traffic is), we spray our food with cancerous fucking pesticides, we dump so much plastic we are meddling with the PH of our oceans... and I'm supposed to believe that our governments care about our health and well being?
This isn't, wasn't and likely won't ever be a good faith relationship.
Illusory, but nuts.
Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 7:28 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 7:28 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 434 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
Did you guys really trust the system before COVID?
For my American friends - the government run by Trump, the pharma industry pushing oxy, and the medical establishment that regularly bankrupts people? I think the system did about as well as it could. There's also a big hindsight bias going on in this thread (it's always 20/20 as they say), as well as a selective bias weighted towards the fuck-ups and away from the successes. But fundamentally it's hard to make population level health decisions, it's hard to make decisions in a crisis, it's hard for the government to get shit done on a good day, to coordinate internationally, and the list goes on.
For my American friends - the government run by Trump, the pharma industry pushing oxy, and the medical establishment that regularly bankrupts people? I think the system did about as well as it could. There's also a big hindsight bias going on in this thread (it's always 20/20 as they say), as well as a selective bias weighted towards the fuck-ups and away from the successes. But fundamentally it's hard to make population level health decisions, it's hard to make decisions in a crisis, it's hard for the government to get shit done on a good day, to coordinate internationally, and the list goes on.
Bahiya Baby, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 7:45 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 7:36 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 681 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
I agree with this and I didn't have much faith in the government before all this... I just resent being in a situation where an incompetent government is locking me in my home and cutting me off from my livelihood and loved ones so that I won't get a virus that I have since gotten anyway. I don't mean to downplay the severity of the illness. The measures taken just always seemed disporportionate to the risk, especially considering the numerous other risks posed to humanity then and now.
I'm ok with having an incompetent government, I'm not ok with an incompetent government having that degree of agency over my life or the lives of my loved ones. I'm not ok with people en masse being locked up and socially isolated "for their own good".
It is in the past. It would be nice if it were addressed I guess. I've got trauma. I think many people still need closure.
I'm ok with having an incompetent government, I'm not ok with an incompetent government having that degree of agency over my life or the lives of my loved ones. I'm not ok with people en masse being locked up and socially isolated "for their own good".
It is in the past. It would be nice if it were addressed I guess. I've got trauma. I think many people still need closure.
A A, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 7:57 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 7:57 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 3 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Posts
In less than a day's time, this thread has thoroughly convinced me this is not the community for me.
Bahiya Baby, modified 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 8:23 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/8/24 8:21 PM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 681 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Our community is not defined by the experiences or opinions of any one person.
And it is, I am certain, a difficult place for anyone who would need it to be.
We rarely agree, we often contradict ourselves and from time to time we get involved in tangents which have little to do with our deeper reasons for being here. Such is the way of things.
May you find what you're looking for !!
And it is, I am certain, a difficult place for anyone who would need it to be.
We rarely agree, we often contradict ourselves and from time to time we get involved in tangents which have little to do with our deeper reasons for being here. Such is the way of things.
May you find what you're looking for !!
Bahiya Baby, modified 5 Days ago at 10/9/24 1:29 AM
Created 5 Days ago at 10/9/24 1:27 AM
RE: COVID Risk Reduction on Retreat Video
Posts: 681 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
I think AI is a massive ethical dilemma. I'm not concerned about AI doomsday scenarios, I just think huge amounts of people are going to lose their jobs much, much sooner than they are ready to.
Where do we end up if people aren't needed to work. The whole social contract we have with our government is void. As I've mentioned I'm not super happy about how governments dealt with Covid. I've also seen refugee camps and places where there are serious drug epidemics and I'm not really too happy about how governments deal with that.
There are those who think we go from AI to fully automated luxury space communism, which I'm totally into, but I just don't see how that society logically follows on from this one. Universal Basic Income could be an interesting approach but it still boils down to: do we get UBI before we get fired?
So far, people I talk to who are pro AI or oblivious to it just seem incapable of understanding what I'm pointing at here. What does your life look like when you are of no value to the people in power?
TLDR
I feel like people are way too worried about "What if AI gets the nukes?" and way too blaise about "What are you actually going to do when AI takes your job?"
Where do we end up if people aren't needed to work. The whole social contract we have with our government is void. As I've mentioned I'm not super happy about how governments dealt with Covid. I've also seen refugee camps and places where there are serious drug epidemics and I'm not really too happy about how governments deal with that.
There are those who think we go from AI to fully automated luxury space communism, which I'm totally into, but I just don't see how that society logically follows on from this one. Universal Basic Income could be an interesting approach but it still boils down to: do we get UBI before we get fired?
So far, people I talk to who are pro AI or oblivious to it just seem incapable of understanding what I'm pointing at here. What does your life look like when you are of no value to the people in power?
TLDR
I feel like people are way too worried about "What if AI gets the nukes?" and way too blaise about "What are you actually going to do when AI takes your job?"