Where does tantra fit in?

Where does tantra fit in? Brian K. 4/19/12 6:31 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Thom W 4/19/12 7:11 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Brian K. 4/19/12 8:01 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/19/12 8:23 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Brian K. 4/19/12 11:15 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/19/12 12:30 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Jigme Sengye 4/19/12 1:51 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/19/12 9:55 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/19/12 10:09 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/19/12 10:12 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/19/12 10:27 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/19/12 10:42 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/19/12 11:04 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/20/12 9:33 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/20/12 9:35 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/20/12 9:58 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/21/12 1:52 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/21/12 10:16 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/21/12 6:05 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/21/12 9:00 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Brian K. 4/22/12 7:23 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/22/12 8:47 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Jigme Sengye 4/23/12 1:50 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/23/12 8:57 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/24/12 1:31 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/24/12 7:45 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/24/12 8:30 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/24/12 9:59 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/24/12 8:50 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/24/12 10:23 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Jigme Sengye 4/24/12 1:29 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/24/12 10:22 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Daniel M. Ingram 4/24/12 11:05 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/28/12 10:56 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/28/12 11:30 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/28/12 9:27 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/28/12 10:01 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/29/12 10:03 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/29/12 11:51 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/29/12 1:09 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/29/12 1:35 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/29/12 2:28 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/29/12 3:34 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/29/12 3:59 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/29/12 4:29 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/29/12 5:48 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/29/12 6:30 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/29/12 7:51 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 4/29/12 8:35 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/29/12 8:03 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/29/12 8:21 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/29/12 9:01 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/29/12 9:25 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/30/12 11:54 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/30/12 3:05 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/30/12 9:13 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? fivebells . 4/30/12 9:17 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Nikolai . 4/30/12 9:29 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/30/12 9:59 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Jigme Sengye 4/29/12 7:26 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Jigme Sengye 4/23/12 4:05 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Eric B 4/23/12 7:38 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Jigme Sengye 4/24/12 1:44 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? An Eternal Now 4/21/12 9:46 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Eric B 4/21/12 8:58 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Thom W 4/20/12 12:37 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/20/12 9:55 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Brian K. 4/20/12 11:31 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/21/12 9:44 AM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 4/29/12 12:31 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? Change A. 4/29/12 12:55 PM
RE: Where does tantra fit in? katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 4/29/12 1:32 PM
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Brian K, modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 6:31 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 6:31 AM

Where does tantra fit in?

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So, i'm a little bit confused about tantra. Basically it seems that Buddha gave a shit load of teachings, and almost everything ive read has been sutra. i'm not even sure if buddha himself gave tantric teachings, because they seem like theyre not really necessary with his descriptions of enlightenment from the sutra teachings. furthermore, ive met people that practice ONLY tantra.. they think its the "jet plane" to enlightenment... i dont see how imagining yourself as a deity can bring u to enlightenment as opposed to developing deep insights into the nature of reality... can anyone shed some light on this for me??
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Thom W, modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 7:11 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 7:04 AM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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The "as opposed to" in your question is the unnecessary tension at its root.

Imagining yourself as a deity is not separate from the nature of reality that you are trying to develop deep insights into.

Doing it well enough (moving beyond the "imagining" into realms less dualistic) will seriously knock ingrained ideas of "self" on the head though, and soften rigid ideas of what "is" and "isn't" real, solid, existing, not existing etc. This is a prerequisite for the more fun realizations.

Do this as well as harnessing often repressed and feared energies in the body/mind and you have a way to quickly manipulate the often stagnant potentials of the nervous system, leading to new perceptual abilities and more flexible contextual frameworks to fit the experiences into, enabling potentially more rapid realization than the typically more renunciate models of most commonly understood paths.

Thom
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Brian K, modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 8:01 AM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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i see.. thanks dude
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 8:23 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 8:23 AM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Imagine You’re Enlightened: explains how the visualization practices of Tibetan Buddhism really work and how modern practitioners can use them in a meaningful way.
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Brian K, modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 11:15 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 11:15 AM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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is it generally thought of as literally a faster way to enlightenment, as tantra practitioners claim it is? do some people think it is less effective as sutra, and it just varies from tradition to tradition? also, where can i find tantra teachings from the buddha? and by that i mean i know i can look up different sutras and read a translated version of what was originally in the pali cannon, where can i find this for tantra and not just someone else explaining it as the middle man? thanks
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 12:30 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 12:29 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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If you keep going with your practice, you might reach a point where you see that it makes sense for you. It is a method which can be helpful in some situations, and fast and slow don't really enter into it. It's not a method for beginners. It requires a capacity for very stable attention, for starters. So no need to evaluate it at this stage. Stick with shamatha/vipassana or whatever your teacher recommends for the time being.

I'm not aware of any tantra teachings which modern scholars believe can be plausibly attributed to Gautama Buddha. For practical purposes, this doesn't matter very much.
Jigme Sengye, modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 1:51 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 1:30 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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My former teacher Khenchen Tsewang Gyatso once characterized deity yoga as a combination of vipassana and samatha. Having now done quite a bit of vipassana, I'd say that any good vipassana practice should be like that. Specifically, if you're practicing properly, you'll be doing the moment-to-moment concentration of "khanika samadhi" by concentrating on changing sensations and you will experience jhanas. To some extent, this even happens before the first path.

Imagine you're the fearsome deity Vajra Bugs Bunny. There is a seed syllable in the form of a carrot at your heart and you are chanting the Vajra Wascally Wabbit mantra, which is "What up doc?" while counting repetitions on your mala. By doing this you are paying attention to your faculty to make mental images and the continuous sensation of hearing yourself say the mantra, twirl beads on your mala and other physical sensations. After a while of doing this every day, you'll start feeling absolutely fantastic and will start feeling vibrations in various parts of your body. Congratulations, you've reached the A&P. You'll feel great. Then things will start sucking, you'll have lots of self doubt and boredom and you'll want to quit the practice.

But there's hope! Your concentration has simply improved and you're noticing more things (like the fact that the mind is subject to the 3 characteristics, in that it is uncontrollable, impermanent and unstatisfactory, and that this is no consolation whatsoever), including all of the things that you previously weren't noticing. To get your mind busy with its newfound (and completely uninteresting at that moment) ability to track more things, do a more complicated meditation, it will be more fun, since you'll be doing it with Vajra Bugs' friends. Now imagine the seed syllable is twirling and you're in a dance, surrounded by your retinue, namely Vajra Elmer Fudd doing showtunes (the what's up doc song). You'll find find you're even more engaged in it, your mind will have no time to wander. Oh wait, you've been doing this for a while and your mind is starting to wander again and you're once again getting depressed? No problem, just imagine the full retinue of Vajra Looney Tunes characters, all doing a song and dance routine together, each with their seed syllables at their chakras, each singing, while you continue to be Vajra Bugs Bunny, at the center of the mandala, while continuing to chant the mantra at breakneck speed and count repetitions on your mala. Do it long enough and a series of very interesting things will happen (see descriptions of equanimity, attaining the first path and the review ñana). I personally didn't get a path this way (I didn't do enough Vajrayana practice for that to happen), I simply did it by noting.

While I'm not seriously suggesting that you do Vajrayana in this way, please don't, and if you are interested, please get an actual empowerment from a reputable lama and be taught an actual sadhana and do ngondro, I'm sure you can see how this corresponds to doing a practice that involves paying attention to a series of changing sensations, which is really all vipassana is. Samatha is about continuous pleasant sensations (or at least the continuous pleasant aspects of what you perceive as one focus) vipassana is about paying attention to everything, but mostly paying attention to the strongest sensation that arises at any time, whether you like the sensation or not (and noticing whether you like that sensation or not). At first, vipassana sounds hard to do, since the mind wanders, and some of the sensations suck. This is one of the reasons why people have come up with tricks to make the practice easier, such as noting or the Vajrayana sing-along movie, which engage all of the faculties and keep the mind too busy to wander most of the time, but rather give it something interesting to pay attention to.

While it's tempting to say both practices are the same, they aren't, since they emphasize some things in different ways, but all the same, the subject matter is the same. These practices, whether diety yoga or any form of vipassana, are tricks to make it easier to explore and manipulate the mechanics of counsciousness. Whether the "yana" is higher or not, doesn't really matter as there are stages of the practice to gradually work through no matter what you do. The quality of one's practice does matter a lot, though.
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 9:55 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 9:55 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Brian K.:
i dont see how imagining yourself as a deity can bring u to enlightenment as opposed to developing deep insights into the nature of reality... can anyone shed some light on this for me??


I will try to explain using the example of a wrathful deity. Consider that you got angry at someone for some reason. In Vipassana, you will note whatever arises and your mind will come up with a story that will keep playing for some time. In Tantra, using wrathful deity visualization, your mind will quickly finish off the story (or the story may not even start depending upon where you are in your practice) because you will have all your enemies defeated under your feet.

Because the mind's story finishes fast, one can get enlightened fast.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 10:09 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 10:06 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Consider that you got angry at someone for some reason. In Vipassana, you will note whatever arises and your mind will come up with a story that will keep playing for some time.


In my experience, if this is the case, one is not really practicing vipassana appropriately and continuously if 'the story keeps playing for sometime'. That means some more paying attention appropriately is in order.

Nick
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 10:12 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Nikolai .:
Consider that you got angry at someone for some reason. In Vipassana, you will note whatever arises and your mind will come up with a story that will keep playing for some time.


If this is the case, one is not really practicing vipassana if 'the story keeps playing for sometime'. That means some more paying attention is in order.

Nick


'More paying attention' will take more time to develop whereas with deity visualization, it doesn't take that long a time.

Have you done deity visualization yourself that you can compare the two?
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 10:27 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 10:24 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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You will notice that I edited in paying attention 'appropriately' while you posted your reply. Not paying attention appropriately will take a longer time. Just like not doing deity visualization appropriately will probably take a longer time as well. Doing anything inappropriately usually takes longer. As you probably already realize, I jump on any absolute statements that don't hold weight in my own experience.

No, I have never practiced deity visualization. I have no intention of critiquing its efficacy. That wasn't the point of the post.

Nick
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 10:42 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 10:42 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Nikolai .:
You will notice that I edited in paying attention 'appropriately' while you posted your reply. Not paying attention appropriately will take a longer time. Just like not doing deity visualization appropriately will probably take a longer time as well. Doing anything inappropriately usually takes longer. As you probably already realize, I jump on any absolute statements that don't hold weight in my own experience.

No, I have never practiced deity visualization. I have no intention of critiquing its efficacy. That wasn't the point of the post.

Nick


Doing deity visualization inappropriately will still bring faster results than doing Vipassana inappropriately. As you haven't done deity visualization yourself, you are not in a position to comment about the comparison between the two and that is why my statements may not hold weight in your own experience. I have done both that is why I have posted my response.

I will try to put what I want to say in other words: For the same amount of time spent, deity visualization will bring in much better results than Vipassana. There is no doubt about that in my own experience.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 11:04 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/19/12 10:55 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Nikolai .:
You will notice that I edited in paying attention 'appropriately' while you posted your reply. Not paying attention appropriately will take a longer time. Just like not doing deity visualization appropriately will probably take a longer time as well. Doing anything inappropriately usually takes longer. As you probably already realize, I jump on any absolute statements that don't hold weight in my own experience.

No, I have never practiced deity visualization. I have no intention of critiquing its efficacy. That wasn't the point of the post.

Nick


Doing deity visualization inappropriately will still bring faster results than doing Vipassana inappropriately. As you haven't done deity visualization yourself, you are not in a position to comment about the comparison between the two and that is why my statements may not hold weight in your own experience. I have done both that is why I have posted my response.

I will try to put what I want to say in other words: For the same amount of time spent, deity visualization will bring in much better results than Vipassana. There is no doubt about that in my own experience.


Then I am of the thought that you probably didn't practice vipassana appropriately because it just didn't gel with your character, thus your switch to something that did gel and did work fast for you. I have my own experience of having not practiced vipassana appropriately for a number of years then realizing that I wasn't and suddenly changing the way i practiced and then making fast progress. Thus I am not a fan of such absolute statements like the one you made.

A more acceptable and factual way of stating what you wished to state would be using the disclaimer, "in my experience, this was better than that" as opposed to the more absolute sounding "this is better than that". Much of a person's own conditioning will have either an adverse or positive effect on a technique/approach's efficacy. It will differ from person to person.But let's leave it there, shall we? We've both said our pieces. People if interested can follow what they feel pulled towards. Back to tantra!

Nick
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Thom W, modified 11 Years ago at 4/20/12 12:37 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/20/12 5:57 AM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Because the mind's story finishes fast, one can get enlightened fast.


There are many reasons that this statement doesn't hold much water. In addition, what you write before is not only questionable, but presents a rudimentary understanding of what "vipassana" is. It suggests a lack of insight into the practices and results of both traditions.

Cheers

Thom
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/20/12 9:33 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Nikolai .:

Then I am of the thought that you probably didn't practice vipassana appropriately because it just didn't gel with your character, thus your switch to something that did gel and did work fast for you. I have my own experience of having not practiced vipassana appropriately for a number of years then realizing that I wasn't and suddenly changing the way i practiced and then making fast progress. Thus I am not a fan of such absolute statements like the one you made.

A more acceptable and factual way of stating what you wished to state would be using the disclaimer, "in my experience, this was better than that" as opposed to the more absolute sounding "this is better than that". Much of a person's own conditioning will have either an adverse or positive effect on a technique/approach's efficacy. It will differ from person to person.But let's leave it there, shall we? We've both said our pieces. People if interested can follow what they feel pulled towards. Back to tantra!


All the other variables being the same, leaving just the tantra and vipassana practices to differ, tantra practices will bring in faster results. I am absolutely certain of that.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/20/12 9:35 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/20/12 9:35 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Nikolai .:

Then I am of the thought that you probably didn't practice vipassana appropriately because it just didn't gel with your character, thus your switch to something that did gel and did work fast for you. I have my own experience of having not practiced vipassana appropriately for a number of years then realizing that I wasn't and suddenly changing the way i practiced and then making fast progress. Thus I am not a fan of such absolute statements like the one you made.

A more acceptable and factual way of stating what you wished to state would be using the disclaimer, "in my experience, this was better than that" as opposed to the more absolute sounding "this is better than that". Much of a person's own conditioning will have either an adverse or positive effect on a technique/approach's efficacy. It will differ from person to person.But let's leave it there, shall we? We've both said our pieces. People if interested can follow what they feel pulled towards. Back to tantra!


All the other variables being the same, leaving just the tantra and vipassana practices to differ, tantra practices will bring in faster results. I am absolutely certain of that.


Disclaimer: "In your own experience...."
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/20/12 9:55 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/20/12 9:55 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Thom W:
There are many reasons that this statement doesn't hold much water. In addition, what you write before is not only questionable, but presents a rudimentary understanding of what "vipassana" is. It suggests a lack of insight into the practices and results of both traditions.


It is just my lack of English language.

Of the 3 yanas, Theravada (Hinayana which literally means the lesser vehicle) is the slowest, then there is Mahayana and then comes Vajrayana (tantrayana) which is the fastest.

If you have insight into the practices and results of both traditions, you would know for yourself. What you have written suggests that you don't have that.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/20/12 9:58 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/20/12 9:57 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Nikolai .:
Disclaimer: "In your own experience...."


Not just mine but others as well who practice tantra.


Disclaimer: In others' experience....such as this person and that person and this person etc......

There is a reason as to why Theravada is also known as Hinayana or the lesser vehicle.


Such a statement then is certainly posted in the right section of this forum.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/21/12 1:52 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/20/12 11:12 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Vipassana is a Hinayana practice and hence it is of lesser efficacy as compared to deity visualization which is a vajrayana practice and hence higher efficacy.


Disclaimer: According to Aman's thinking (and probably some other mahayana/vajrayana followers as well).....

We can do this all day if you wish.

Whatever makes you happy.
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Brian K, modified 11 Years ago at 4/20/12 11:31 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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I'll be honest, based on my common sense as well as people i have met who have practiced vajrayana over the course of some years, id say that distinction between "lesser" and "greater" vehicles is a bunch of bullshit when it really comes down to it
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/21/12 10:16 AM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Those who have hardly any experience with Vajrayana practices are in no position to compare the two practices. Only those who have done both can know better.

There are some scientific studies as well which show remarkable results which were conducted on Vajrayana monks.

Disclaimer: In view of those who have only practiced Hinayana, what I say may not go well. It may be better for them to first try Vajrayana practices and see for themselves.
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/21/12 9:44 AM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Have you practiced Vajrayana yourself? If no, then try practicing it first and then compare the results of Hinayana practices and Vajrayana practices and then report your findings.
An Eternal Now, modified 11 Years ago at 4/21/12 9:46 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/21/12 9:45 AM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Nikolai .:
Disclaimer: "In your own experience...."


Not just mine but others as well who practice tantra.

There is a reason as to why Theravada is also known as Hinayana or the lesser vehicle. Try practicing tantra and then you will know for yourself.
Maybe for some, yes.

For Bahiya and many others, he got completely liberated just by listening to Buddha's discourse on no-self. He was completely new, just met Buddha 1st time.

Different people are suited to different practices. All dharma doors are equal.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/21/12 6:05 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/21/12 6:05 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Those who have hardly any experience with Vajrayana practices are in no position to compare the two practices. Only those who have done both can know better.

There are some scientific studies as well which show remarkable results which were conducted on Vajrayana monks.

Disclaimer: In view of those who have only practiced Hinayana, what I say may not go well. It may be better for them to first try Vajrayana practices and see for themselves.


Which studies? Can you provide a link please, Aman?
Since you hang out here a lot, Aman, it would be interesting to hear about how you actually progressed to the stages discussed here at the DhO and in MCTB via only visualization. Did it lead to MCTB 4th path and how quickly? If you really are adamant about spreading the word and planting the flag for vajrayana, then talk about the details. Making absolute statements without anything to back you up usually doesn't convince.

Now I am certainly not knocking vajrayana or any school of practice. You can listen to Hokai talk about his practice that seemed to work for him in the Hurricane Ranch Discussion in 2009. I'm more interested in seeing statements like the ones Aman has made here be backed up with disclaimers and/or actually links to info that can back up what he says, and/or he talk about the nitty gritty details of his practice. Otherwise, it just seems like grandstanding based on 'belief'. Not helpful.

Nick
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Eric B, modified 11 Years ago at 4/21/12 8:58 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/21/12 8:58 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Nikolai .:
You will notice that I edited in paying attention 'appropriately' while you posted your reply. Not paying attention appropriately will take a longer time. Just like not doing deity visualization appropriately will probably take a longer time as well. Doing anything inappropriately usually takes longer. As you probably already realize, I jump on any absolute statements that don't hold weight in my own experience.

No, I have never practiced deity visualization. I have no intention of critiquing its efficacy. That wasn't the point of the post.

Nick


Doing deity visualization inappropriately will still bring faster results than doing Vipassana inappropriately. As you haven't done deity visualization yourself, you are not in a position to comment about the comparison between the two and that is why my statements may not hold weight in your own experience. I have done both that is why I have posted my response.

I will try to put what I want to say in other words: For the same amount of time spent, deity visualization will bring in much better results than Vipassana. There is no doubt about that in my own experience.


So you've gotten a result from doing deity practice. This result was from doing deity practice, not doing vipassana or some other "hinayana" practice. So by virtue of the fact that you got this result by doing a vajrayana practice, it would be impossible for you to say how long that same result would take you to acheive by vipassana or some "hinayana" practice.

Your assertion that "deity visualization will bring in much better results than Vipassana" sounds like the standard vajrayana routine that one finds in the opening pages of many vajrayana books that one can find today...full buddhahood in one lifetime vs eons and eons, the inferiority of the arahant, pratyekabuddha and sravaka path...yada yada yada

Perhaps someone could design a suitable double blind study to settle this once and for allemoticon
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/21/12 9:00 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Nikolai .:
Which studies? Can you provide a link please, Aman?


http://www.mindful.org/the-science/neuroscience/a-monk-in-an-mri

"Lama Öser strikes most anyone who meets him as resplendent—not because of his maroon and gold Tibetan monk’s robes, but because of his radiant smile."

"A classic study in the 1940’s showed that it’s impossible to prevent the startle reflex, despite the most intense, purposeful efforts to suppress the muscle spasms. No one Ekman and Robert Levenson had ever tested could do it. Earlier researchers found that even police marksmen, who fire guns routinely, are unable to keep themselves from startling.

But Öser did. Ekman explains, “When Öser tries to suppress the startle, it almost disappears. We’ve never found anyone who can do that. Nor have any other researchers.” "

"They both scored far higher than any of the five thousand other people tested. “They do better than policemen, lawyers, psychiatrists, customs officials, judges—even Secret Service agents,” the group that had previously distinguished itself as most accurate."

"Ekman ended his report of the results by noting that each of the studies with Öser had “produced findings that in thirty-five years of research I have never seen before.” In short, Öser’s data are extraordinary."
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Brian K, modified 11 Years ago at 4/22/12 7:23 AM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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that doesnt prove anything
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/22/12 8:47 AM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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You're right that it doesn't prove anything. Unfortunately, everyone here who'll agree with you on the broader question already does, and it's extremely unlikely that you'll be able to change the mind of anyone who doesn't. It's a futile argument, and while exercises in futility have their place in spiritual practice, you're probably better off spending the time attending to your mind. emoticon
Jigme Sengye, modified 11 Years ago at 4/23/12 1:50 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Those who have hardly any experience with Vajrayana practices are in no position to compare the two practices. Only those who have done both can know better.

There are some scientific studies as well which show remarkable results which were conducted on Vajrayana monks.

Disclaimer: In view of those who have only practiced Hinayana, what I say may not go well. It may be better for them to first try Vajrayana practices and see for themselves.


There are also plenty of scientific studies on vipassana practioners. I don't know of any comparing the two.

I think that what you're saying amounts to saying that one form of vipassana is objectively better than another form of vipassana. In what way is diety yoga not a form of vipassana? As mentioned, my former Vajrayana teacher claimed that it was.

For what it's worth, I have done both (and other things) and I know a lot of people who have done the full range of Vajrayana practices for decades and a lot of people who have done various styles of vipassana and jhana-oriented samatha. I do think Vajrayana is very effective, but I also think it's very complicated and requires a lot of dedication to lead to lasting tangible results. I'm aware of the explanations stating how and why the highest Vajrayana practices are extremely simple, however those practices require mastery of their respective foundation practices (which I've practiced, but hardly came close to mastering) in order to achieve sufficient concentration and energy manipulation skills.

While I stopped doing Vajrayana in mid 2007, I've still done more Vajrayana practice at this point than vipassana practice. I wouldn't say I've done any Hinayana practice, because I don't think that such a thing as "Hinayana" actually exists anymore. As far as I know, it's a derogatory term for proto-Mahayana sects that died out a long time ago that Lamas like to use since they rely on literature that dates back to when those sects existed. (I realize it also refers to certain foundational practices that come before ngondro and a specific outlook on the practice.) I was able to get the 1st path through Mahasi-style vipassana after a few months of practice (two months of an hour and half a day, plus a month-long retreat) according to Kenneth Folk's instructions nearly two years ago. My success at the practice (which is fairly commonplace by the standards of this board) is probably due to understanding the practice better and being more mature and serious about it than I was about Vajrayana. That being said, I do still think this says something about the claim that lackluster Vajrayana practice is still superior to any non-Vajrayana practice. Doing Vajrayana well is not easy.

Considering that for both practices I had some of the best and most reputable teachers in the world, and asked every question I could think of, I think one key might be that one practice is simpler than the other and suits my personality better. Given more work on visualization and the vipassana tricks I know now, I don't see any reason why I couldn't have reproduced the same results with diety visualization and other Vajrayana practices I was taught, though ultimately, that just means that diety visualization is another form of vipassana, as my old and very well-respected Nyingma teacher once stated (see my previous post in this thread for the quote).

As can be seen on this board and the KFD board, a lot people have managed to take it much further in less time and are able to do practices that resemble Mahamudra with continuous attention and have gained the realization of emptiness, all through variations on Mahasi-style vipassana or using practices that used noting as a foundation. Of all the fellow Vajrayana students I've met, not counting monks and non-monastic Rinpoches, only one (a very dedicated practitioner from Germany) had managed to gain the realization of emptiness. I can't say anything about them gaining path attainments, since Vajrayana (or at least Nyingma and Kagyu) emphasizes different maps and doesn't look for the same things for measuring progress. All the same, noting-based vipassana does seem like a very effective and quick method to achieve things that are considered meaningful achievements by Vajrayanists.

Considering that both systems deal with paying attention to the senses, and paying attention to them in a moment-to-moment changing sensation sort of way, I suspect that done properly, both lead to similar results.
Jigme Sengye, modified 11 Years ago at 4/23/12 4:05 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Vipassana is a Hinayana practice and hence it is of lesser efficacy as compared to deity visualization which is a vajrayana practice and hence higher efficacy.


What technical, mechanical difference does it make? In diety visualization, you're saying and paying attention to a mantra, generating and paying attention to a mental image, trying to replace the imagined sense of sense with this image, doing various energy attention and manipulation exercises (seed syllables, tsa lung practices, guru yoga visualization, etc...) and then (assuming this is part of the sadhana) dissolving the image into an imagined emptiness, which eventually becomes the real realization of emptiness. Absorption and stages and of the practice come and go.

When doing vipassana you're paying attention to all of the senses, but mostly the tactile and mental senses (in the sense of thoughts, imagination and emotions) and the other external senses, which are dominated by the visual and to a lesser extent (depending on the stimuli that are present) the auditory sense. Paying attention in this way amounts to energy manipulation, though from a vipassana perspective this is seen as sensations of vibration. The sense of self goes through a process of attrition, change, occasional dissolution and eventually is seen through. Emptiness (the non-dual stuff, not cessation-style fruitions) can arise and there are other practices and tricks that can be used to make it arise though that isn't emphasized, but can be if the practitioner cares about that sort of thing. Absorption and stages and of the practice come and go.

Apart from the ritualistic magical invocation stuff in Vajrayana, how are these two practices different? I realize the emphasis and the packaging is different and the feel is different, but you're still just paying attention to changing sensations, including the changing sensations that make up thoughts and the sense of self.
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Eric B, modified 11 Years ago at 4/23/12 7:38 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Dear Jigme Sengye,

Thank you for your informed and well-reasoned contributions to this thread specifically and this forum in general.


Eric
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/23/12 8:57 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Jigme Sengye:
There are also plenty of scientific studies on vipassana practioners. I don't know of any comparing the two.


In all the scientific studies on Vipassana practitioners, could any one of the participants make the startle reflex disappear?

I know that the answer can't be yes because Vipassana can never ever produce such a result. It is only Vajrayana practices that are powerful enough to produce such results that can't be produced using any other methods available.

Did you practice deity visualization and other HYT practices or did you just practice the Vajrayana foundations?
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 1:31 AM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Jigme Sengye:
There are also plenty of scientific studies on vipassana practioners. I don't know of any comparing the two.


In all the scientific studies on Vipassana practitioners, could any one of the participants make the startle reflex disappear?

I know that the answer can't be yes because Vipassana can never ever produce such a result. It is only Vajrayana practices that are powerful enough to produce such results that can't be produced using any other methods available.

Did you practice deity visualization and other HYT practices or did you just practice the Vajrayana foundations?


This study is fairly new.
[url=
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=2012-10012-001]
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=2012-10012-001

You didn't answer all the questions I asked in my last post above, Aman. Could you please answer them? You have just made another absolute statement based on 'what you know'. What and how do you 'know'?

Nick
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 7:45 AM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Nikolai .:
This study is fairly new.
[url=
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=2012-10012-001]
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=2012-10012-001

You didn't answer all the questions I asked in my last post above, Aman. Could you please answer them? You have just made another absolute statement based on 'what you know'. What and how do you 'know'?

Nick


Maybe you are not aware of the fact that Mathieu Ricard (who is possibly the subject of the study that you provided the link for because his name is mentioned there) is a Tibetan monk and he is considered to be the happiest person in the world. Here is the link:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/the-happiest-man-in-the-world-433063.html

I didn't answer your other questions because that would have been subjective answers. Doesn't the scientific study report carry more weight than any subjective claims which anyone can make? I may not have believed Lama Oser's claim that he doesn't get startled by a gun shot going off within close distance of him but I believe the scientific report to be true.

What do you make out of the first scientific study I cited?

Can you provide a link to a scientific study which were conducted on Theravadan monks which produced extraordinary results like that of Tibetan monk Lama Oser or Mathieu Ricard?
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 8:30 AM
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I think I've said enough in this thread to get a point across. You can continue as you wish.
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 8:50 AM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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I pulled the full article, and Ricard was indeed the subject. It's incredible to me that someone would write a scientific paper with one of the authors as the lone subject of study. Was this paper the basis for your assertion that Vajrayana practices can eliminate the startle response? Because it's an interesting result, but I think I'd need to see replication in about ten independent practitioners before I'd start to be convinced. A comparative repeat of the study in experienced Vipassana practitioners would also go a long way to validating your claim.
Jigme Sengye, modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 1:29 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Jigme Sengye:
There are also plenty of scientific studies on vipassana practioners. I don't know of any comparing the two.


In all the scientific studies on Vipassana practitioners, could any one of the participants make the startle reflex disappear?

I know that the answer can't be yes because Vipassana can never ever produce such a result. It is only Vajrayana practices that are powerful enough to produce such results that can't be produced using any other methods available.

Did you practice deity visualization and other HYT practices or did you just practice the Vajrayana foundations?


I simply know of studies that have been done on vipassana practioners, since two of my teachers (Kenneth Folk and Shinzen Young) have been involved in them. I haven't read the studies (I'm not sure they've been published yet), nor do I know what the findings were, though I can ask, if it matters. I wasn't making a claim that any of them addressed the specific reflex you were mentioning and I was saying that I don't know of any study that does.

Judging from your terminology and the way you're phrasing your question, I'll guess that you have a Gelug background. To answer your question, I have done plenty of the Nyingma equivalent of Highest Yoga Tantra practice. While I did do advanced practices that are several levels past the preliminary ngondro practices, the distinction you're making doesn't quite exist in the same way in Nyingma, since diety vizualization is included in ngondro. Usually, everybody in Nyingma does diety yoga right away, though some teachers do take pains to make sure people can meditate properly using samatha and tonglen before getting into ngondro. See Words of My Perfect Teacher, by Patrul Rinpoche, if you're curious. I learned from the Palyul tradition.

Will you be answering my question about what you consider the relevant technical aspects of diety yoga that qualify it as not being a form of vipassana? Otherwise, it seems fairly clear that it is. Please note, I'll take further unexplained assertions of your system's superiority as a sign that you're not really interested in this discussion.
Jigme Sengye, modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 1:44 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Eric Bause:
Dear Jigme Sengye,

Thank you for your informed and well-reasoned contributions to this thread specifically and this forum in general.


Eric


My pleasure and thanks for the compliment.
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 10:23 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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The basis for my assertion was this:

http://www.mindful.org/the-science/neuroscience/a-monk-in-an-mri

Check out my response on 4/21 at 9 PM to Nikolai where I have quoted some sentences from the above report.
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 9:59 PM
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I guess you couldn't find any study regarding Theravadan practitioners.
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 10:22 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Jigme Sengye:
I simply know of studies that have been done on vipassana practioners, since two of my teachers (Kenneth Folk and Shinzen Young) have been involved in them. I haven't read the studies (I'm not sure they've been published yet), nor do I know what the findings were, though I can ask, if it matters. I wasn't making a claim that any of them addressed the specific reflex you were mentioning and I was saying that I don't know of any study that does.


Of course I also know of studies that have been done on Vipassana practitioners. But I don't know of any that produced extraordinary results like that of Tibetan monk Lama Oser or Mathieu Ricard.

Jigme Sengye:
Judging from your terminology and the way you're phrasing your question, I'll guess that you have a Gelug background. To answer your question, I have done plenty of the Nyingma equivalent of Highest Yoga Tantra practice. While I did do advanced practices that are several levels past the preliminary ngondro practices, the distinction you're making doesn't quite exist in the same way in Nyingma, since diety vizualization is included in ngondro. Usually, everybody in Nyingma does diety yoga right away, though some teachers do take pains to make sure people can meditate properly using samatha and tonglen before getting into ngondro. See Words of My Perfect Teacher, by Patrul Rinpoche, if you're curious. I learned from the Palyul tradition.


Which deities did you visualize? Did you visualize wrathful deities? Did you visualize deities like Hevajra, Heruka, Kalarupa, Mahakala, Yamantaka etc.? I will try to get the book that you have mentioned.

Jigme Sengye:
Will you be answering my question about what you consider the relevant technical aspects of diety yoga that qualify it as not being a form of vipassana? Otherwise, it seems fairly clear that it is. Please note, I'll take further unexplained assertions of your system's superiority as a sign that you're not really interested in this discussion.


I don't think that there is similarity between deity visualization and vipassana. The reason that you gave for you thinking them to be same in the previous post of yours:

Jigme Sengye:
Apart from the ritualistic magical invocation stuff in Vajrayana, how are these two practices different? I realize the emphasis and the packaging is different and the feel is different, but you're still just paying attention to changing sensations, including the changing sensations that make up thoughts and the sense of self.


The 'ritualistic magical invocation stuff' in Vajrayana is what makes it different and more effective. It acts deep within the subconscious mind. So deep that it can even stop the startle reflex.
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 11:05 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/24/12 11:05 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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So, just to add a little but of my own experience to this...

About 12 years ago was on a retreat at Bhavana Society and started doing candle flame, and I got so that I could go up through the jhanas in pure light and geometry in about 5 minutes or so, and in the Equanimity/4th jhana phase the rainbow flux lines would produce these fantastic 3D luminous, intelligent, seemingly quite alive, extremely well-formed, detailed, somewhat transparent images of things such as a White Vajrasatva and Consort, a Buddha, a Green Tara, A White Chenrezig, etc. and I could enter into the No-Self door to Fruition off of the intelligence in their eyes and the awareness on my end merging and this side and that side collapsing into each other, and did this sort of thing perhaps a hundred times over the course of a few days of this practice with all sorts of images, basically all the tantric deities I knew of at the time.

It was very interesting, but in the end it didn't do for me what just taking 100% sensate full-field ultra-inclusive vipassana practice as object, nor as much as just being extremely appreciative of the wonder of the sensate world and resolving the feelings in it.

Now, there is more to tantra than that, but it was way beyond what the vast majority of even dedicated tantra aspirants that I have talked to were able to do after years of practice, and so, in my own experience, I found it beautiful, but not more than lots of other things.

I would be interested in the specifics of what particular practices with some instructions lead to what specific effects and how much faster and how this is known beyond the standard propaganda. That sort of thing helps these discussions.
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/28/12 10:56 AM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Daniel M. Ingram:
So, just to add a little but of my own experience to this...

About 12 years ago was on a retreat at Bhavana Society and started doing candle flame, and I got so that I could go up through the jhanas in pure light and geometry in about 5 minutes or so, and in the Equanimity/4th jhana phase the rainbow flux lines would produce these fantastic 3D luminous, intelligent, seemingly quite alive, extremely well-formed, detailed, somewhat transparent images of things such as a White Vajrasatva and Consort, a Buddha, a Green Tara, A White Chenrezig, etc. and I could enter into the No-Self door to Fruition off of the intelligence in their eyes and the awareness on my end merging and this side and that side collapsing into each other, and did this sort of thing perhaps a hundred times over the course of a few days of this practice with all sorts of images, basically all the tantric deities I knew of at the time.


This is a very common occurrence, anyone who has attended a Goenka Vipassana course have heard about this sort of thing happening.

Daniel M. Ingram:
It was very interesting, but in the end it didn't do for me what just taking 100% sensate full-field ultra-inclusive vipassana practice as object, nor as much as just being extremely appreciative of the wonder of the sensate world and resolving the feelings in it.


Of course, it couldn't have done anything for you just like for the person whose example is given by Goenka.

Daniel M. Ingram:
Now, there is more to tantra than that, but it was way beyond what the vast majority of even dedicated tantra aspirants that I have talked to were able to do after years of practice, and so, in my own experience, I found it beautiful, but not more than lots of other things.

I would be interested in the specifics of what particular practices with some instructions lead to what specific effects and how much faster and how this is known beyond the standard propaganda. That sort of thing helps these discussions.


The report I cited proves that the 'standard propaganda' is not just propaganda, it does produce results which can be measured and which were not produced by anyone in the past. On the other hand, any sort of thing which you say helps these discussions can be just made up by the mind which one believes to be true but may not be so. How many times practitioners have felt that they got enlightened, they got AF, they have achieved this and that only to be proven wrong? Subjective reports can't be relied upon.
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/28/12 11:30 AM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Sorry, can you explain exactly what you think the report you cited proves, and why it convinced you?

I took a look at the paper and was not impressed by its methodology, but I would like to be, so I'd be glad to see a principled defense of it.
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fivebells .:
Sorry, can you explain exactly what you think the report you cited proves, and why it convinced you?

I took a look at the paper and was not impressed by its methodology, but I would like to be, so I'd be glad to see a principled defense of it.


The report I cited proves that certain monks who do Vajrayana practices can produce results which are extraordinary and which were thought to be impossible earlier. This along with the results that I have obtained through my practice of deity visualization convinced me that Vajrayana does produce results faster and takes one farther.

What part of the methodology didn't impress you?

You should keep in mind that no one ever tested before could stop the startle reflex. Do you think that you can do it? Hearing a gunshot being fired close to one's ears is bound to startle almost everyone except some Vajrayana practitioners.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/28/12 10:01 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
fivebells .:
Sorry, can you explain exactly what you think the report you cited proves, and why it convinced you?

I took a look at the paper and was not impressed by its methodology, but I would like to be, so I'd be glad to see a principled defense of it.


The report I cited proves that certain monks who do Vajrayana practices can produce results which are extraordinary and which were thought to be impossible earlier. This along with the results that I have obtained through my practice of deity visualization convinced me that Vajrayana does produce results faster and takes one farther.

What part of the methodology didn't impress you?

You should keep in mind that no one ever tested before could stop the startle reflex. Do you think that you can do it? Hearing a gunshot being fired close to one's ears is bound to startle almost everyone except some Vajrayana practitioners.


How many monks were tested in the research you cited and how many years of practice did he/they have when tested?
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 10:03 AM
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A single monk was tested, Ricard, who was also the last author of the paper. This is just completely ridiculous, for a psychological test.

The paper does nothing to test the implicit hypothesis that Ricard's meditation practice caused his unusual startle response. This would require a longitudinal study.

The paper does not address Aman's even stronger hypothesis that Ricard's startle response was specifically caused by the tantric aspects of his practice. This would require a study of various types of practitioners, so that the evolution of their startle responses can be contrasted.
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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fivebells .:
A single monk was tested, Ricard, who was also the last author of the paper. This is just completely ridiculous, for a psychological test.


Did you miss the previous study about Lama Oser? If you have, then read my earlier reply to you.

fivebells .:
The paper does nothing to test the implicit hypothesis that Ricard's meditation practice caused his unusual startle response. This would require a longitudinal study.


Did you even read the full article that you said you pulled and found out that Ricard was indeed the subject? Most probably you have forgotten about it because in the abstract it says:

"Most aspects of the participant's responses in the unanticipated condition did not differ from those of a comparison group of 12 age-matched male controls. Both kinds of meditation produced physiological and facial responses to the startle that were smaller than in the distraction condition."

fivebells .:
The paper does not address Aman's even stronger hypothesis that Ricard's startle response was specifically caused by the tantric aspects of his practice. This would require a study of various types of practitioners, so that the evolution of their startle responses can be contrasted.


Ricard is a monk in Tibetan tradition. Do you expect him to be practicing Vajrayana practices or Theravadan practices?
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 12:31 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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HI Aman,

As far as I can tell the term "hinayana" has aptly fallen from favor. Its etymological origins are given here. Having studied in a small amount Soto Zen, Je Tsongkhapa and Theravadin practices, I can't see the benefit of using an archaic word which includes in its meaning an antagonistic demotion.

If you mean theravadin, its etymology is neutral and sanskrit: sthaviravāda, "teaching of the Elders
Change A, modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 12:55 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Hello Katy,

I know that in a politically correct environment it is not right to use the term Hinayana. But in my own experience, I have found out that Theravadin practices are indeed not as effective as Vajrayana practices. I used the term only to highlight the point that it is because of that reason that Theravada is also known as Hinayana.

You would also notice that I haven't used Hinayana all throughout this thread.

Also, it is through your post that I came to know about Lama Oser's startle reflex study. So thanks for that.
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 1:09 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 1:07 PM

RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Did you miss the previous study about Lama Oser? If you have, then read my earlier reply to you.
No, I didn't read that article, thinking that all the evidence would be in the scientific paper. That they did not include Oser as a subject in the paper raises grave suspicions about the claims in this article.

Aman A.:
Did you even read the full article that you said you pulled and found out that Ricard was indeed the subject? Most probably you have forgotten about it because in the abstract it says:

"Most aspects of the participant's responses in the unanticipated condition did not differ from those of a comparison group of 12 age-matched male controls. Both kinds of meditation produced physiological and facial responses to the startle that were smaller than in the distraction condition."


I apologize for using confusing jargon. "Longitudinal study" means testing the effect of the treatment over time. I.e., a convincing test for meditation as the basis for Ricard's capability would be "This group of 10 non-meditators has mean startle response x now, they meditate for y years, and then startle response is then z which is much less than x." I realize it's going to take time for someone to do that test, but that doesn't change the fact that the authors are over-reaching with their implication that meditation is the cause. Controlling for age is kind of bogus, actually, a statistical fig leaf, unless there is some evidence that startle response varies by age.

Aman A.:
Ricard is a monk in Tibetan tradition. Do you expect him to be practicing Vajrayana practices or Theravadan practices?
The practices have many important similarities. Even stipulating the still-unestablished claim that meditation is behind Ricard's capability, you have provided no evidence that special aspects of Vajrayana practice caused it.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 1:32 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Hi Aman,

It's un-inflammatory to express your preference for a practice, or its superior suitability for you at this time. There is no need to demote another practice, unless there is personal aversion/dislike.

Here is Lama Oser (Mattieu Ricard, if I am not mistaken), on Mettā meditation , a practice founded in the Path of Purification, an early document:

Basic methods

Mettā meditation is regularly recommended to the Buddha's followers in the 2,500-year-old Pali canon. The canon generally advises radiating metta in each of the six directions, to whatever beings there may be.[10] A different set of practical instructions, still widely used today, is found in the 5th CE Visuddhimagga. In addition, variations on this traditional practice have been popularized by contemporary teachers and applied in modern research settings.

Visuddhimagga instructions
Contemporary instruction for the cultivation of loving-kindness – such as is found in the works of Sharon Salzberg,[11] the Triratna Buddhist Community's Kamalashila,[5] and Matthieu Ricard[12] – is often based in part on a method found in Buddhaghosa's 5th c. CE Pāli exegetical text, the Path to Purification (Pali: Visuddhimagga), Chapter IX.[13][14] This traditional approach is best known for identifying successive stages of meditation during which one progressively cultivates loving-kindness towards:


Buddha sends love to all beings.
oneself[15]
a good friend[16]
a "neutral" person
a difficult person[17]
all four of the above equally[18][19]
and then gradually the entire universe[20]
One should avoid choosing someone to whom one is sexually attracted or who is dead.[21] For a "neutral" person, choose someone that you might come into contact with every day, but who does not give rise to strong positive nor strong negative emotions. For a "difficult" person, traditionally choose an enemy, but avoid choosing a person who has just wrecked your life, unless you are very well grounded in awareness.
Matthieu Ricard has recommended that metta practitioners choose to meditate on a person for whom it is very easy to feel unconditional love and compassion.


Mettā counters aversion/dislike.

[edit: I'm sorry Aman - I linked to wiki metta above; here is Mattieu Ricard in his own blog under the 3/27/12 entry.
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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fivebells .:
No, I didn't read that article, thinking that all the evidence would be in the scientific paper. That they did not include Oser as a subject in the paper raises grave suspicions about the claims in this article.


The reason for them not including Oser as a subject could as well be his non-availability.

fivebells .:
I apologize for using confusing jargon. "Longitudinal study" means testing the effect of the treatment over time. I.e., a convincing test for meditation as the basis for Ricard's capability would be "This group of 10 non-meditators has mean startle response x now, they meditate for y years, and then startle response is then z which is much less than x." I realize it's going to take time for someone to do that test, but that doesn't change the fact that the authors are over-reaching with their implication that meditation is the cause. Controlling for age is kind of bogus, actually, a statistical fig leaf, unless there is some evidence that startle response varies by age.


In the link about Lama Oser, it says that none of the subjects ever tested could stop the startle reflex.

fivebells .:
The practices have many important similarities. Even stipulating the still-unestablished claim that meditation is behind Ricard's capability, you have provided no evidence that special aspects of Vajrayana practice caused it.


They hardly have any similarities. What Vajrayana practices have you done which made you say that they have many important similarities?
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 2:28 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Well, now you're just begging the question. This whole thread has been an argument about the similarities and differences between your meditation practice and Mahasi, etc., so you can't bring up Oser or Ricard's startle responses as examples of why your approach is superior without demonstrating that their responses have evolved because of Vajrayana's special characteristics.

(And this is ignoring the deeper question of why a reduced startle response is any kind of signal of effective practice. I am agnostic on this score, but it's something you ought to address if you are going to put this much effort into digging in on this position.)
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Your response itself is an answer that you don't have much experience with Vajrayana practices. You are just trying to dodge the question.

It is obvious enough that if there have been many who have been tested for startle response before but haven't been able to stop it and then a Vajrayana practitioner is tested who is able to, it is because of his practice that he is able to.

Also, I wonder if you have any experience with physiological differences that meditation practice makes otherwise you would also know that a reduced startle response is a sign of an advanced practice.

Maybe you could gain more understanding by reading some AF material. Though they also stay short of claiming to stop startle reflexes.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 3:59 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Your response itself is an answer that you don't have much experience with Vajrayana practices. You are just trying to dodge the question.

It is obvious enough that if there have been many who have been tested for startle response before but haven't been able to stop it and then a Vajrayana practitioner is tested who is able to, it is because of his practice that he is able to.

Also, I wonder if you have any experience with physiological differences that meditation practice makes otherwise you would also know that a reduced startle response is a sign of an advanced practice.

Maybe you could gain more understanding by reading some AF material. Though they also stay short of claiming to stop startle reflexes.


This isn't a competition. And I don't think Aman is budging on his view. Aman, you have stated your preference for vajarayana as a superior practice and it is obvious you gain motivation for classifying it as 'faster' and more effective at such things as turning off the startle response. Let Aman have his motivation, peoples, if it helps him stay course and practice dharma, all the better.

This isn't a competition to see who can get to the end of suffering (or whatever your objective in practice is) the fastest and bestest. Each of us has our own nama/rupa to contend with, our own way of reading, gaining motivation from, and reacting to the reality of within and around. We each are motivated by differing things. Your way of seeing versus my way of seeing. I and many others here are into all of these dharma practices to end suffering, not the startle response (which i don't have a problem with). Let's let him have this so that he can keep being motivated to practice. Why the need to convince?

Nick
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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I don't get motivated by classifying it as faster and more effective at anything but I know that it is such because of me having experienced it as such. I have classified it as such after getting the results not by reading about it or having told about it. It is just plain obvious to me. That is why I have stated earlier that those who don't have experience with Vajrayana may not agree with what I have to say. I myself didn't use to agree with Lamas telling me that Vajrayana is the highest/fastest (or any other adjective).
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 5:48 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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If we're being disruptive to the forum, let us know.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 6:30 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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fivebells .:
If we're being disruptive to the forum, let us know.


Not at all. I'm just giving my 2 cents worth. I'm not that type of moderator. If it were a moderating thing, I would sign it with 'moderator'. But there ain't nothing to moderate here. We are all just interacting and giving opinions. Anyways, this thread is in the appropriate section for this type of discussion. Some of what I wrote in the last post was also to see what it would trigger in Aman. We all have grasped at our ideas and views at some time or other. It is good (and I speak from my own experience) to have those things questioned from the outside. (which in turn can trigger inwards reflection and inner questioning).
Jigme Sengye, modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 7:26 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:

Which deities did you visualize? Did you visualize wrathful deities? Did you visualize deities like Hevajra, Heruka, Kalarupa, Mahakala, Yamantaka etc.? I will try to get the book that you have mentioned.



I took the first three years of this course between 2003 and 2006: http://retreat.palyul.org/introduction-to-palyul-retreat

I have a secrecy samaya which prevents me from talking about the thing that was my main practice from that course, but as part of the Palyul practice I also did Avalokitesvara (White Chenrezig), Green Tara, Vajrasattva, Vajrakilaya, Padmasambhava and a few other things.

I think you'll like the book I was mentioning. It presents the Longchen Nyingthig ngondro, which fairly similar to the ngondro I was doing and most other Nyingma (and to a lesser extent Kagyu) ngondros.

I'm on a long vacation at the moment and my internet access is spotty outside of my office, so I sadly won't be able to continue this discussion for a few weeks.
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 7:51 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Thanks for clarifying. I agree, having cherished views attacked is very valuable.
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 8:03 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Your response itself is an answer that you don't have much experience with Vajrayana practices. You are just trying to dodge the question.


My experience is based on the practices described in this set of talks.

Aman A.:
It is obvious enough that if there have been many who have been tested for startle response before but haven't been able to stop it and then a Vajrayana practitioner is tested who is able to, it is because of his practice that he is able to.
As I said, even stipulating that, it doesn't mean that it was anything special about the Vajrayana practices as opposed to other meditation practices. The paper says nothing about testing advanced practitioners of other meditation styles.

Aman A.:
Also, I wonder if you have any experience with physiological differences that meditation practice makes otherwise you would also know that a reduced startle response is a sign of an advanced practice.


Yes, I have experience with that. That is an effect of meditation practice, it is not the goal. Its relationship to the goal is unclear to me. Could you explain how it relates to the goal of meditation in more detail, please?

Aman A.:
Maybe you could gain more understanding by reading some AF material. Though they also stay short of claiming to stop startle reflexes.


Oh, come now, let's not get nasty. Does it advance the conversation from your perspective if I say something like "Maybe you could gain more understanding by showing this thread to your teacher and asking him to point out the cold hell you're wandering in?" emoticon
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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fivebells .:
My experience is based on the practices described in this set of talks.


It is unclear to me from that link what your practice involves. But it appears to me that it does not involve the visualizing the wrathful deities or deities with consorts.

fivebells .:
As I said, even stipulating that, it doesn't mean that it was anything special about the Vajrayana practices as opposed to other meditation practices. The paper says nothing about testing advanced practitioners of other meditation styles.


I say that there can't be similar results from advanced practitioners of other meditation styles because they simply aren't that effective. There have been some study involving practitioners here on DhO that I think did involve open state meditation but I don't know whether it tested startle response or not.

fivebells .:
Yes, I have experience with that. That is an effect of meditation practice, it is not the goal. Its relationship to the goal is unclear to me. Could you explain how it relates to the goal of meditation in more detail, please?


If you are not startled by high-pitched sound which is something akin to a gunshot, then anything less than that won't disturb you and won't make you suffer even a tiny bit. You won't even twitch your facial muscles. That is freedom from suffering.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 8:35 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Nikolai
We all have grasped at our ideas and views at some time or other.
And there's often saying the same concept, different language, and funny understanding.
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/29/12 9:01 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
...it appears to me that it does not involve the visualizing the wrathful deities or deities with consorts.
It does.

Aman A.:
I say that there can't be similar results from advanced practitioners of other meditation styles because they simply aren't that effective.
You're just begging the question again.

Aman A.:
If you are not startled by high-pitched sound which is something akin to a gunshot, then anything less than that won't disturb you and won't make you suffer even a tiny bit. You won't even twitch your facial muscles. That is freedom from suffering.
This is beyond my experience. Anyone else here have experience with this kind of thing?
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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fivebells .:
It does.


Then have you tried visualizing wrathful deity which you normally visualize in your everyday normal life at times when something was irritating you or you had aversion to something? Or visualizing deity with a consort when there was any kind of desire?

fivebells .:
This is beyond my experience. Anyone else here have experience with this kind of thing?


I think the stopping startle reflex is beyond my experience too but the things that used to bother me earlier just don't and they don't produce any physiological reaction at all or if it does, then it goes away lot easily. My body is lot more relaxed. Physical tension has reduced considerably with many health benefits.
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/30/12 11:54 AM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Aman A.:
Then have you tried visualizing wrathful deity which you normally visualize in your everyday normal life at times when something was irritating you or you had aversion to something? Or visualizing deity with a consort when there was any kind of desire?


This really gets at the crux of the arguments other people have been presenting here. What's going on when you do such visualization practices maps very cleanly to connection with and awareness/acceptance of experiences which generate attraction/aversion/ignorance, i.e. straight samatha/vipassana. In the visualization practice, the deity acts as a proxy/symbol for the experience of the moment to which you open and surrender. In other forms of meditation, you go straight to the experience and open and surrender to that. Both forms of practice have their place, both can be effective and quick for different people, and it's a mistake to reify one over another, a mistake which is often based in ego identification with one's tradition and so actually become a hindrance to the goal of the practice.

I've done what you suggest on the cushion, but in terms of bringing an end to the suffering I find it's more direct and effective to join with the experience directly and release it into awareness (not to mention less demanding cognitively) and that's what I've taken into my life. My own experience has been that for me, this is a better approach than deity visualization. You obviously had the opposite experience, and that's fine, too. But it is over-reaching to conclude from your personal experience that your practice is absolutely the best way forward for all and the only way to reach enlightenment. There are many different types of karma to cut through, and it's good to have appropriate tools for each. I would agree that tantra, in the general sense of opening to suffering and using its energy to power meditation, is a critical component of any complete practice, but I think that is present in all the major traditions in some form.

Aman A.:
I think the stopping startle reflex is beyond my experience too but the things that used to bother me earlier just don't and they don't produce any physiological reaction at all or if it does, then it goes away lot easily. My body is lot more relaxed. Physical tension has reduced considerably with many health benefits.


That's good, and useful to practice, but it's still not the goal. The goal is to end suffering. That is really not something which can be measured objectively. There can still be suffering in the midst of relaxation and control of physiological responses. I'm not saying Ricard or Oser is still suffering, just that that there are many plausible alternative explanations for their putative startle responses in addition to the one you believe. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe it, either, just that you haven't made a convincing case for it.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 4/30/12 3:05 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Here is the beginning of the Hurricane Ranch discussions where Hokai, a vajrayana practitioner in the japanese shingon tradition eventually starts to talk about his visualisation practice and Daniel and others talking about how it might relate to vipassana and jhana practice.
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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fivebells .:
I've done what you suggest on the cushion, but in terms of bringing an end to the suffering I find it's more direct and effective to join with the experience directly and release it into awareness (not to mention less demanding cognitively) and that's what I've taken into my life.


I suggested what you do on the cushion to do off cushion. But I think you have already made up your mind as to what is more direct and effective same as I have made up my mind. I find deity visualization to be less demanding cognitively even off cushion though off cushion, I just 'visualize' it at the back of my mind. That could be the difference why I find it better. Those who find it demanding cognitively off cushion may not have required benefit.
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 4/30/12 9:17 PM
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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Yep, you're much smarter than me. emoticon
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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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RE: Where does tantra fit in?

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fivebells .:
There can still be suffering in the midst of relaxation and control of physiological responses. I'm not saying Ricard or Oser is still suffering, just that that there are many plausible alternative explanations for their putative startle responses in addition to the one you believe. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe it, either, just that you haven't made a convincing case for it.


I define no suffering as when the body is completely relaxed and mind is not churning which you might have experienced in a flow condition at Goenka Vipassana retreat (in case you have done that and have had flow).

How would you define no suffering? Do you have an example of how that would be experienced.

What plausible alternative explanations can there be for Ricard or Oser's startle responses?