Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana - Discussion
Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 10:58 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 10:58 AM
Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
I've been catching up on the Jhana Insight yahoo group. Here's something FrankT wrote in response to a Dark Night yogi that I think some of you will find interesting. I certainly did...
I sense some confusion in you; namely, a conflicting juxtaposition
between the practice of the "Sixteen Stages of Insight" versus
"Samatha/Vipassana.”
If 'Samatha yoked to Vipassana' is your aim, than you need to let go of
the intellectual straightjacket of 'Straight Vipassana', you'll be
better off for it.
How do you deal with the dark night? Well you can start by seeing it as
a glass half-full rather than half empty. Better yet forget about the
concept of 'dark night' altogether. Because of the progress of your
practice, what you are 'feeling' and experiencing is the subsequent
renunciation, disenchantment, and dispassion from the wordily
defilements you crave and cling to.
Think about it -- you are following the Lord Buddha's practice of mental
development to eradicate the fetters of becoming; to extinguish the 'I',
'Me', and 'Mine', another words, to abandon your World of greed, hatred,
and delusion, in order to Nibbana.
Unfortunately, the 'I', 'Me', and 'Mine' is loudly objecting mentally
and physically, to the progress of your practice. Subsequently, the pace
of your progress goes something like; one-step forward, regress two
steps back; three steps forward, regress one-step back; four steps
forward and regress three steps back, and so on and on -- be assured
this is the nature of mental development.
Paul, it is extremely hard in this dark age of the consumer-culture to
breakout from ones 'ego', especially if you are a practicing layperson.
Okay some advice, every time you enter the so called 'dark night',
rather than dwell on regression, depression, and despair, turn it around
and see it as a badge for the progress of your practice; because that is
exactly what it is! Another words when you are experiencing
renunciation, disenchantment, and dispassion; take heart, you are moving
forwards not backwards.
Two more things before I end this reply...
Now that you are aiming to take a jhana/insight route, consider moving
from breathe meditation to Metta meditation. One of the negative
spin-offs of western civilization, is the fact most of us don't like
ourselves, or even the people around us. This dislike is a big hindrance
to our progress; Metta practice without a doubt will stabilize and
smooth out the stress you will experience when the 'I', 'Me', and
'Mine', fights back against the progress of your practice, the 'dark
night' so to speak.
Also, forget about the goal of reaching the first jhana, and so on.
Focus instead on unifying your mind, and on mindfully achieving and
maintaining stillness. Learn to watch what arises and ceases in your
mind and 'how' the five hindrances come and go, not 'why' they come and
go. The 'three characteristics of existence' are obvious, that is they
are easy to understand intellectually. What is more important though is
to see 'dependent origination' in action; subsequently, the 'three
characteristics of existence' will become intuitive rather than
intellectual.
Oh yeah... when you focus on unifying your mind and achieving stillness,
the jhanas come naturally.
With Metta,
FrankT
I sense some confusion in you; namely, a conflicting juxtaposition
between the practice of the "Sixteen Stages of Insight" versus
"Samatha/Vipassana.”
If 'Samatha yoked to Vipassana' is your aim, than you need to let go of
the intellectual straightjacket of 'Straight Vipassana', you'll be
better off for it.
How do you deal with the dark night? Well you can start by seeing it as
a glass half-full rather than half empty. Better yet forget about the
concept of 'dark night' altogether. Because of the progress of your
practice, what you are 'feeling' and experiencing is the subsequent
renunciation, disenchantment, and dispassion from the wordily
defilements you crave and cling to.
Think about it -- you are following the Lord Buddha's practice of mental
development to eradicate the fetters of becoming; to extinguish the 'I',
'Me', and 'Mine', another words, to abandon your World of greed, hatred,
and delusion, in order to Nibbana.
Unfortunately, the 'I', 'Me', and 'Mine' is loudly objecting mentally
and physically, to the progress of your practice. Subsequently, the pace
of your progress goes something like; one-step forward, regress two
steps back; three steps forward, regress one-step back; four steps
forward and regress three steps back, and so on and on -- be assured
this is the nature of mental development.
Paul, it is extremely hard in this dark age of the consumer-culture to
breakout from ones 'ego', especially if you are a practicing layperson.
Okay some advice, every time you enter the so called 'dark night',
rather than dwell on regression, depression, and despair, turn it around
and see it as a badge for the progress of your practice; because that is
exactly what it is! Another words when you are experiencing
renunciation, disenchantment, and dispassion; take heart, you are moving
forwards not backwards.
Two more things before I end this reply...
Now that you are aiming to take a jhana/insight route, consider moving
from breathe meditation to Metta meditation. One of the negative
spin-offs of western civilization, is the fact most of us don't like
ourselves, or even the people around us. This dislike is a big hindrance
to our progress; Metta practice without a doubt will stabilize and
smooth out the stress you will experience when the 'I', 'Me', and
'Mine', fights back against the progress of your practice, the 'dark
night' so to speak.
Also, forget about the goal of reaching the first jhana, and so on.
Focus instead on unifying your mind, and on mindfully achieving and
maintaining stillness. Learn to watch what arises and ceases in your
mind and 'how' the five hindrances come and go, not 'why' they come and
go. The 'three characteristics of existence' are obvious, that is they
are easy to understand intellectually. What is more important though is
to see 'dependent origination' in action; subsequently, the 'three
characteristics of existence' will become intuitive rather than
intellectual.
Oh yeah... when you focus on unifying your mind and achieving stillness,
the jhanas come naturally.
With Metta,
FrankT
fivebells , modified 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 11:12 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 11:12 AM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
This is essentially the direction I've been taking, and it's been paying dividends. You need shamatha to stay calm as the vipassana cuts into you.
Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 11:22 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 11:20 AM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Yes. I've found myself repeatedly drawn to this type of practice. It pulls at me constantly. It seems a little more intuitive than my own training in body sweeping or the mahasi noting most others do on DhO.
My major concern is whether people are getting stream entry dong this?
My major concern is whether people are getting stream entry dong this?
katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 12:18 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 12:12 PM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi BtG:
BtG
I think this is what happened to me:
FrankT
and this causes what is summed up in the phrase "stream entry". I want to be clear with caution here: sotapanna is the change, to me, that marks the beginning of precision work, wherein the expenditure of energy and skillful objective (including and integrating sila) are aligned. Before this, expenditure of energy may be skillful or unskillful, often energy is given to mental and/or physical distractions/cravings.
Say, some people are standing by a stream on the banks and some are swimming/floating in the stream, and some are standing in the shallows of the stream able to wade in the shallows. On the banks, the conversation may ideate about any number of topics including speculating wholesomely or unwholesomely about the waders and swimmers in the stream. In the shallows of the stream, there are people experiencing fears and delights about the sensations of wading in the water and unfamiliar aquatic life/patterns. Some waders may return to the banks and live with the limiting memories of the wading - some pleasant, some fearful, some may wade deeper. Then there are the swimmers: there are the new swimmers who trust their limited new skills and know they can get better with practice and time in: they concentrate on learning and improving skills at every chance. Then, there are those swimmers who are extremely adept, swimming despite any number of challenges perceived by others, dying in the stream, coming and going from the banks on occasion, visiting with some skillful residents of the banks, encouraging the waders and new swimmers.
A stream enterer, to me, is having gone deep enough in the wading that one can no longer wade, but - because the mind is now accustomed to being concentrated on swimming/floating, it trusts the practice and going deeper. It loses alliances with distractions, it sees a little more clearly for itself and can take up advice (or reject it) with fewer distracting influences. Still, this swimmer has only basic skills which amount to fewer distractions - because the mind has seen what it can do in sila-based concentration. Unsila concentration generates distractions.
edits: clarity
BtG
My major concern is whether people are getting stream entry dong this?
I think this is what happened to me:
FrankT
oh yeah... when you focus on unifying your mind and achieving stillness,
the jhanas come naturally.
the jhanas come naturally.
Say, some people are standing by a stream on the banks and some are swimming/floating in the stream, and some are standing in the shallows of the stream able to wade in the shallows. On the banks, the conversation may ideate about any number of topics including speculating wholesomely or unwholesomely about the waders and swimmers in the stream. In the shallows of the stream, there are people experiencing fears and delights about the sensations of wading in the water and unfamiliar aquatic life/patterns. Some waders may return to the banks and live with the limiting memories of the wading - some pleasant, some fearful, some may wade deeper. Then there are the swimmers: there are the new swimmers who trust their limited new skills and know they can get better with practice and time in: they concentrate on learning and improving skills at every chance. Then, there are those swimmers who are extremely adept, swimming despite any number of challenges perceived by others, dying in the stream, coming and going from the banks on occasion, visiting with some skillful residents of the banks, encouraging the waders and new swimmers.
A stream enterer, to me, is having gone deep enough in the wading that one can no longer wade, but - because the mind is now accustomed to being concentrated on swimming/floating, it trusts the practice and going deeper. It loses alliances with distractions, it sees a little more clearly for itself and can take up advice (or reject it) with fewer distracting influences. Still, this swimmer has only basic skills which amount to fewer distractions - because the mind has seen what it can do in sila-based concentration. Unsila concentration generates distractions.
edits: clarity
Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 3:12 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 3:12 PM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
I like the analogy for stream entry katy! I've always thought of it in terms of what I read in MCTB though, as the experiential understanding of anatta...
The two approaches I know of that explicitly teach samatha-vipassana are TWIM / Dhamma Sukkha and Culadasa's Dharma Treasure. Seems that between the two sites there's enough info and support to get cracking. Right now I find myself pulled into this practice any way so it may be a good time to explore it more methodically...
The two approaches I know of that explicitly teach samatha-vipassana are TWIM / Dhamma Sukkha and Culadasa's Dharma Treasure. Seems that between the two sites there's enough info and support to get cracking. Right now I find myself pulled into this practice any way so it may be a good time to explore it more methodically...
katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 5:47 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 5:47 PM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent PostsI've always thought of it in terms of what I read in MCTB though, as the experiential understanding of anatta...
If a person is in the wading section for a time and sincerely practicing, then the brillance of equanimity will start to occur.
Then, there will be the dissatisfaction of equanimity: is this it? Is this all there is?
Then, there may be a new practice to deal with the dissatisfaction of equanimity. Or a person can deepen mindfulness...and, in my case, take up sitting in pleasantly-sensate places, aware of the senses triggering without noting or claiming or possessing. One listens to others and oneself during audible conversation without thinking, "their voice/my voice" for example. One hones in on equanimity practices.
Then, in my case, there are surprising and pleasant events in this period, such as naturally arising single-point concentration all of a sudden. This subdues the dissatisfaction of the stage "equanimity". Then, there is high equanimity: the mind has learned is good to let go. It stops perseverating on "Is this it? What next? Is this it? Is this all there is? What next..."
In that fine moment of, for examples, attentive mindfulness without expectation, attentive anapanasati without expectation, the mind is loosened. There are no expectations and the mind - by experiencing pleasant and unusual phenomena, gives itself to the practices more and more, open-heartedly, without expectation. Here, the mind can show itself cessation, show the aggregates one by one and then none.
Eric B, modified 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 6:58 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/29/12 6:58 PM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 187 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent PostsBagpuss The Gnome:
I like the analogy for stream entry katy! I've always thought of it in terms of what I read in MCTB though, as the experiential understanding of anatta...
The two approaches I know of that explicitly teach samatha-vipassana are TWIM / Dhamma Sukkha and Culadasa's Dharma Treasure. Seems that between the two sites there's enough info and support to get cracking. Right now I find myself pulled into this practice any way so it may be a good time to explore it more methodically...
The two approaches I know of that explicitly teach samatha-vipassana are TWIM / Dhamma Sukkha and Culadasa's Dharma Treasure. Seems that between the two sites there's enough info and support to get cracking. Right now I find myself pulled into this practice any way so it may be a good time to explore it more methodically...
BTG, I know what you mean; my practice has gone in this direction as well. Dharma Treasure is quite the gold mine (there's got to be a better pun...)
Eric
Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 4/30/12 6:32 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/30/12 6:32 AM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Katy can you describe "spontaneous one pointedness" please?
I've been having some odd experiences off the cushion since my last retreat that may relate to what you're experiencing.
I've been having some odd experiences off the cushion since my last retreat that may relate to what you're experiencing.
katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 12 Years ago at 4/30/12 10:39 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/30/12 10:25 AM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent PostsBagpuss The Gnome:
Katy can you describe "spontaneous one pointedness" please?
I've been having some odd experiences off the cushion since my last retreat that may relate to what you're experiencing.
I've been having some odd experiences off the cushion since my last retreat that may relate to what you're experiencing.
sure.
Context: ego-centricism cannot generate or "have" this experience or its benefits. I say this for any readers who are in a place wherein stories about how meditation will promote them are still fabricating. Un-egoic practices (which are sometimes preceded by de-egoic practices like journaling, HAIETMOBA, therapy, etc) suffuse and stabilise mental receptivity - which receptivity is akin to excellent listening (but that now more senses than listening are engaged) - and this habit of being in an un-egoic receptivity allows for stress-less, beneficial single-pointed concentration to occur. (Because Oppenheimer and others have openly shared about their lives, I infer that there is strong mental concentration which causes stress and suffering and imports the antithesis of beneficial consequences).
Physically, single-pointedness (as "I" have experienced it) feels like being magnetized to the object of attention; vision becomes narrow and strongly connected to the object as a center of the visual field, and mental perception seems boundless, absolutely without an awareness of any "this or that" definition, yet there is focus on a single object within a boundless perception. This has, in my existence, so far only occurred when listening and interacting with a few people. Undoubtedly, this is because a) I do not give un-sentient objects fully sensate receptivity, and b) I am probably using this time with un-sentient objects as a slacking-off-practice time, time in which egoic perseverations are welcome to return because "surely, this egoic "me" is more interesting/worthy than an object". b) is a wasteful, harmful, egoic patter which delays developing adept skills, and I will say that "stream-entry" can bring on quite a wreck without the enterers constant attendance to cultivating skills and displacing egoic arisings. It is like getting it truly over one's head and the need to swim (practice) well, and constantly, only gets more important.
Mentally, single-point concentration has attributes that are unlike my normal mental processes: the words boundless, connected and caring come to mind. However, these words are approximations for something that has no basis in words; again, that something has nothing to do with me. I have to get out of the way for it to occur. My ego return only bars its suffusion. That these experiences have occurred but a few times attests to my personal willingness to remain egoically habitual versus intently filling each moment in mindfulness of actuality, shunned ego.
[Edit: this sort of concentration is profoundly relaxing, as if no energy is exerted at all. Everything seems fully restful, in equilibrium, in a soft, subtle, completely connected state (as if any other way has no existence)...again, this is trying to express something in printed word that has no basis there. And again, it has nothing to do with me, it is not a personal talent, it is anyone's ability in open receptivity. To have conditions that allow for this cultivation is a great opportunity to experience something about being alive and fostering the same for others.]
[Edit 2: I also want to caution against romanticizing this. This is a basic mental attribute, nothing special. When I consider that Gotama died with dysentary, I am able to drop romantic, gradiose ideation. The world has had great masters and they were not preserved from old age/sickness/death, just the personal suffering of them.]
Adam , modified 12 Years ago at 4/30/12 11:10 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/30/12 11:10 AM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent Posts
With this conversation aren't we missing a deeper and more meaningful divide in these types of practices? It seems that one set of practices aims for the ending of the fetters, dispassion, the end of craving, the end of 'tension,' while the other aims at the insight knowledges, penetrating the feeling of observer, and the completing of the 'energy circuit' etc.
Bhante Vimalaramsi, the creator of 'TWIM' certainly recognizes this as a major divide, he says that people reach fundamentally different 'end points' in their practice if they are aiming for penetrating the 3Cs vs. aiming for understanding the interactions of the 5 khandas, understanding the 4NTs etc. He claims that "emotional habitual tendencies" must be ended for true completion (with the brahmaviharas becoming immeasurable only when they transcend their emotional/feeling form)
There are some other than Vimalaramsi who have similar opinions, i am most aware of those from the thai forest tradition - Lee, Mun, Chah, Fuang, Geoff, Amaro, Sumedho, Passano... They are talking about something fundamentally different from someone like shinzen young, jack kornfield, mahasi sayadaw or dan ingram.
So there might be some slight teaching divides in comparing wet and dry approaches to penetrating the 3C's but there is a much clearer and more significant divide between these two ideas of what suffering is. Here is some supporting stuff:
ingram (not sure about his current opinion, but this demonstrates what alot of people think about enlightenment):
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml
young - demonstrates that he thinks that the only issue regarding emotion is how to express it here:http://www.shinzen.org/Articles/artExpressEmo.pdf
compared to:
vimalaramsi from his essential TWIM instruction on the 6R's:
http://dhammasukha.org/Study/Articles/simple-easy-mind.htm
Ajaan geoff/thanissaro bhikku:
note: thanissaro bikkhu often talks about tension as a way of breathing
Ajaan Lee:
I think you get the point, is there any question that these two groups are talking about radically different ideals of enlightenment? One group is constantly focusing on defilements, unskillful thoughts aren't to be tolerated, they are talking about the literal fetter model of the suttas, they do practices of staring at dead bodies to diminish lust... they aren't doing the 3C penetration thing.
I only mention this bigger divide because if you are going to use Vimalaramsi's method as something with a similar goal as MCTB, you should know that he really disagrees with this take on things, he specifically says in his dhammatalks that noting the 3 characteristics doesn't get you the real deal attainments.
from his book 'the breath of love':
You might have guessed by my lopsided knowledge and presentation that i strongly agree with the second group, i don't really know why so many people seem to be going against what is clearly stated in the suttas. The suttas define suffering as:
eh ill cut myself off here, this has gone on for a while =o i think you get my point by now... there may be a wet/dry teaching philosophy divide, but there is a deeper fundamental divide about what suffering is, what its cause is, what its cessation is, and what the path leading to the cessation is.
Bhante Vimalaramsi, the creator of 'TWIM' certainly recognizes this as a major divide, he says that people reach fundamentally different 'end points' in their practice if they are aiming for penetrating the 3Cs vs. aiming for understanding the interactions of the 5 khandas, understanding the 4NTs etc. He claims that "emotional habitual tendencies" must be ended for true completion (with the brahmaviharas becoming immeasurable only when they transcend their emotional/feeling form)
There are some other than Vimalaramsi who have similar opinions, i am most aware of those from the thai forest tradition - Lee, Mun, Chah, Fuang, Geoff, Amaro, Sumedho, Passano... They are talking about something fundamentally different from someone like shinzen young, jack kornfield, mahasi sayadaw or dan ingram.
So there might be some slight teaching divides in comparing wet and dry approaches to penetrating the 3C's but there is a much clearer and more significant divide between these two ideas of what suffering is. Here is some supporting stuff:
ingram (not sure about his current opinion, but this demonstrates what alot of people think about enlightenment):
Realization comes from seeing things as they actually are now, not trying to imitate some bizarre behavioral or emotional ideal.
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml
young - demonstrates that he thinks that the only issue regarding emotion is how to express it here:http://www.shinzen.org/Articles/artExpressEmo.pdf
compared to:
vimalaramsi from his essential TWIM instruction on the 6R's:
Meditation (Bhavana) helps one let go of such difficult delusional states in life as fear, anger, tension, stress, anxiety, depression, sadness, sorrow, fatigue, condemnation, feelings of helplessness or whatever the catch (attachment) of the day happens to be.
http://dhammasukha.org/Study/Articles/simple-easy-mind.htm
Ajaan geoff/thanissaro bhikku:
The brahmaviharas, or “sublime attitudes,” are the Buddha’s primary heart teachings—the ones that connect most directly with our desire for true happiness. The term brahmavihara literally means “dwelling place of brahmas.” Brahmas are gods who live in the higher heavens, dwelling in an attitude of unlimited goodwill, unlimited compassion, unlimited empathetic joy, and unlimited equanimity. These unlimited attitudes can be developed from the more limited versions of these emotions that we experience in the human heart.
The trick here is learning how to develop these emotions when you need them. All too often our attitude towards our emotions is that they’re a given. You hear the Buddha saying you can actually change your emotions. This is an important skill, that you can feel goodwill for anyone at any time when it’s called for. You can feel compassion, empathetic joy, any time for anyone when it’s called for. You can develop equanimity even in cases where people are close to you, you want very much to help them, but you can’t. You’ve got to develop equanimity. And this requires skill. This is another thing we learn through the meditation. As the Buddha once said, our emotions are a fabrication. They are things that are created in the mind, they are not necessarily a given.
What are they made out of? Physically they are affected by the breath. Inside the mind they are affected by the kind of conversations the mind has with itself, and also by feelings of pleasure and pain, neither pleasure nor pain, and the perceptions—the labels we put on things. And as we meditate, we are trying to learn how to be more conscious of these factors so that we can turn them in the right direction. If you breathe with more knowledge and alertness, it helps to develop more skillful emotions. Because what is an emotion? It’s a thought that gets into your body. It has an impact on your heart rate and other physical processes. Well the impact comes through the breath. So if you can learn how to get in touch with your breath and can smooth out the breath, soothe out the breath when it gets erratic or disturbed, then you have a grounding for developing skillful emotions, embodying skillful emotions so they are not just thoughts. [..]
What are they made out of? Physically they are affected by the breath. Inside the mind they are affected by the kind of conversations the mind has with itself, and also by feelings of pleasure and pain, neither pleasure nor pain, and the perceptions—the labels we put on things. And as we meditate, we are trying to learn how to be more conscious of these factors so that we can turn them in the right direction. If you breathe with more knowledge and alertness, it helps to develop more skillful emotions. Because what is an emotion? It’s a thought that gets into your body. It has an impact on your heart rate and other physical processes. Well the impact comes through the breath. So if you can learn how to get in touch with your breath and can smooth out the breath, soothe out the breath when it gets erratic or disturbed, then you have a grounding for developing skillful emotions, embodying skillful emotions so they are not just thoughts. [..]
note: thanissaro bikkhu often talks about tension as a way of breathing
Ajaan Lee:
We feel nothing but disenchantment, disinclination, and dismay over the way living beings in the world are born and die. We see it as something meaningless, without any substance. We’re through with feelings of liking and disliking. We’ve run out of attachment for ourself and everything else. The mind has moderation. It’s neutral. Even. This is called six-factored equanimity (chalaºg’Òpekkh›). We let go of the things that happen, that we know or see, letting them follow their own regular course without our feeling caught up in them. The mind will then move up to liberating insight.
At this point, make your strength of mind even more powerful, to the point where it is freed from attachment even to the realizations it has come to. Knowing is simply knowing; seeing is simply seeing. Keep the mind as something separate. Don’t let it flow out after its knowing. We know, and then leave it at that. We see, and then leave it at that. We don’t latch onto these things as being ours. The mind will then gain full power and grow still of its own accord—not involved, not dependent on anything at all. Fabrications disappear completely, leaving just a pure condition of dhamma: emptiness. This is the phenomenon of non-fabrication. Release. The mind is free from the world— exclusively within the current of the Dhamma, without going up or down, forward or back, progressing or regressing. The mind is a stake driven firmly in place. Just as when a tree is attached to a stake by a rope: When the tree is cut down, the rope snaps in two, but the stake stays put. The mind stays put, unaffected by any objects or preoccupations.
This is the mind of a noble disciple, a person free from the fermentations of defilement. Whoever trains his or her heart in line with what has been mentioned here will meet with security, contentment, and peace, free from every sort of trouble or stress. What we have discussed briefly here is enough to be used as a guide in the practice of training the mind to gain release from suffering and stress in this lifetime. To take an interest in these things will be to our advantage in the times to come.
At this point, make your strength of mind even more powerful, to the point where it is freed from attachment even to the realizations it has come to. Knowing is simply knowing; seeing is simply seeing. Keep the mind as something separate. Don’t let it flow out after its knowing. We know, and then leave it at that. We see, and then leave it at that. We don’t latch onto these things as being ours. The mind will then gain full power and grow still of its own accord—not involved, not dependent on anything at all. Fabrications disappear completely, leaving just a pure condition of dhamma: emptiness. This is the phenomenon of non-fabrication. Release. The mind is free from the world— exclusively within the current of the Dhamma, without going up or down, forward or back, progressing or regressing. The mind is a stake driven firmly in place. Just as when a tree is attached to a stake by a rope: When the tree is cut down, the rope snaps in two, but the stake stays put. The mind stays put, unaffected by any objects or preoccupations.
This is the mind of a noble disciple, a person free from the fermentations of defilement. Whoever trains his or her heart in line with what has been mentioned here will meet with security, contentment, and peace, free from every sort of trouble or stress. What we have discussed briefly here is enough to be used as a guide in the practice of training the mind to gain release from suffering and stress in this lifetime. To take an interest in these things will be to our advantage in the times to come.
I think you get the point, is there any question that these two groups are talking about radically different ideals of enlightenment? One group is constantly focusing on defilements, unskillful thoughts aren't to be tolerated, they are talking about the literal fetter model of the suttas, they do practices of staring at dead bodies to diminish lust... they aren't doing the 3C penetration thing.
I only mention this bigger divide because if you are going to use Vimalaramsi's method as something with a similar goal as MCTB, you should know that he really disagrees with this take on things, he specifically says in his dhammatalks that noting the 3 characteristics doesn't get you the real deal attainments.
from his book 'the breath of love':
Mind opens when it sees and realizes these twelve impersonal links of Dependent Origination directly. As a result, mind becomes dispassionate and free. This is as true now in present times, as it was 2600 years ago. Any teaching that doesn’t highlight the necessity of Dependent Origination as its realization and final goal or destination isn’t teaching the true path. Currently, many people say that seeing impermanence, suffering, and notself is realizing Nibbàna. However, you must note that although these characteristics do lead the way to realizing Nibbàna and are very important to
develop, they don’t directly allow you to see the supramundane state of Nibbàna.
develop, they don’t directly allow you to see the supramundane state of Nibbàna.
You might have guessed by my lopsided knowledge and presentation that i strongly agree with the second group, i don't really know why so many people seem to be going against what is clearly stated in the suttas. The suttas define suffering as:
sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair
eh ill cut myself off here, this has gone on for a while =o i think you get my point by now... there may be a wet/dry teaching philosophy divide, but there is a deeper fundamental divide about what suffering is, what its cause is, what its cessation is, and what the path leading to the cessation is.
Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 12 Years ago at 5/1/12 6:46 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/1/12 6:46 AM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent PostsKaty:
Mentally, single-point concentration has attributes that are unlike my normal mental processes: the words boundless, connected and caring come to mind. However, these words are approximations for something that has no basis in words; again, that something has nothing to do with me. I have to get out of the way for it to occur. My ego return only bars its suffusion. That these experiences have occurred but a few times attests to my personal willingness to remain egoically habitual versus intently filling each moment in mindfulness of actuality, shunned ego.
Ah. That sounds very cool. Not what's happening to me at all though. I'll post about that separately. Thanks Katy.
Adam:
eh ill cut myself off here, this has gone on for a while =o i think you get my point by now... there may be a wet/dry teaching philosophy divide, but there is a deeper fundamental divide about what suffering is, what its cause is, what its cessation is, and what the path leading to the cessation is.
I do indeed get your point. It's well made as well. Im not sure what the answers are, but Im glad the question has been raised. Just how do you reconcile dry vs wet? (and should you even try?)
Oddly (or not) as I lean more into anapana I am still going through the classic progress of insight. I seem unable to stop it/change it. I've been through DN into EQ 3x since I last posted!
TJ:
the stream is where all the different brooks, creeks, trickles, drips, and droplets join up.
where different teachings and trainings converge--not where they diverge--one finds the stream
where different teachings and trainings converge--not where they diverge--one finds the stream
Awesome.
fivebells , modified 12 Years ago at 5/1/12 12:00 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/1/12 12:00 PM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent PostsBagpuss The Gnome:
I do indeed get your point. It's well made as well. Im not sure what the answers are, but Im glad the question has been raised. Just how do you reconcile dry vs wet? (and should you even try?
My impression is that dry is practices based in insight and power (upekkha and mudita) while wet is practices based in metta and compassion. You need both, and they bleed into each other if you let them. E.g., compassion will lead to rest without ignorance (very close to insight, and fuels the capability for it) in the experience of even phenomena which are usually seen as extremely unpleasant (very close to power, and fuels the capability for it.)
katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 12 Years ago at 5/1/12 2:18 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/1/12 2:17 PM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent PostsAh. That sounds very cool.
ha. It is really just something else - like having new alertness after coffee (which is an exaggerated experience the first time and an effect thereafter), truly not special, but actually useful and not me nor mine. This single-point concentration is important to me in that it naturally reinforces the relaxedness of training away from feral mentation (the steady flood of desire, unease, and related restlessness that arises) and causes me to be keen on re-placing the mind back in mindfulness.
So, yes, I think this point you've excerpted of "forget about the first jhana and so on..." worked well for me and continues to be good training. My "job" is still to keep the feral mind placed back at the senses, empty of owner/center (and its various story spin-offs); this is equanimous, receptive, specific attention...not unlike the equanimous, theistic reverence of god-in-all-things without trying to name or place them. It is acute listening/observation/sensing, because everything is "worthy" of this.
From this mindfulness has come concentrated states and their related.
Not what's happening to me at all though. I'll post about that separately.
An aside: it was nice to read about changes in pain sensation in your other thread. I hope to learn more about that from you.
[edits]
Andrew , modified 12 Years ago at 5/10/12 2:44 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 5/10/12 2:44 AM
RE: Dark Night & Samatha / Vipassana
Posts: 336 Join Date: 5/23/11 Recent Postskaty steger:
My "job" is still to keep the feral mind placed back at the senses, empty of owner/center (and its various story spin-offs); this is equanimous, receptive, specific attention...not unlike the equanimous, theistic reverence of god-in-all-things without trying to name or place them. It is acute listening/observation/sensing, because everything is "worthy" of this.
From this mindfulness has come concentrated states and their related.
This is an important statement, and very useful. I've used this reverence before, and was reminded last week about it, very powerful way to use christian conditioning to fuel mindfulness.
thanks Katy for another great explanation of 'the way' in this thread.