why the natural goodness?

Adam , modified 11 Years ago at 5/3/12 9:00 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 5/3/12 9:00 PM

why the natural goodness?

Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent Posts
I don't have much of a direction with this thought but maybe some people can fill it out or comment on it...

I was just contemplating how stable and constant the emotional metta is compared to something like fear or anger, and how metta can transcend the limited emotional form like thanissaro bhikku describes,

The brahmaviharas, or “sublime attitudes,” are the Buddha’s primary heart teachings—the ones that connect most directly with our desire for true happiness. The term brahmavihara literally means “dwelling place of brahmas.” Brahmas are gods who live in the higher heavens, dwelling in an attitude of unlimited goodwill, unlimited compassion, unlimited empathetic joy, and unlimited equanimity. These unlimited attitudes can be developed from the more limited versions of these emotions that we experience in the human heart.


if your brahmaviharas are constrained into emotional self-based things they stay limited

various AFers seem to describe the same thing. in my experience I can develop this really deep and stable good will, but if i try to develop a deep and stable anger for example - not that i do it on purpose or do it at will - I end up with this really fluttery thing which jumps and around and constantly has to make arguments, in a loud tone of voice, for its own existence.

metta can be tinged with conceit, but it can also transcend conceit [1], however anger can't exist without conceit... why is that?

most of the ideas i come up with are definitely unskillful - such as compassion is our buddha nature or something like that - that type of thinking seems to keep compassion from transcending conceit... does anyone have a skillful alternative way of understanding?

[1] reminds me of ananda's comment to sariputta that the reason sariputta wouldn't feel grief if the buddha died is that he had no conceit
Trent , modified 11 Years ago at 5/4/12 2:29 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 5/4/12 2:14 AM

RE: why the natural goodness?

Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
hello,

i think conceit in this context means holding something personally; it means to identify with something. when one attaches to something personally, that something can be lost. after losing something beloved, one feels sorrowful. so in the stories telling of the buddha's death, ananda felt the sadness of separation, whereas arahants like sariputta could not.

if something personal feels threatened, an intuitive response could be to protect it through aggression. that's why anger can't exist without conceit; because in conceit's absence, there is nothing personal that can be lost, and so there is nothing to defend. it is because aggression is self-protective that it is also argumentative, forceful, and self-justifying.

when one's intent is such that they no longer wish to have a personality, they will be unable to feel angry (at least, not for much of a duration). that person might still feel threatened, but they can see no reason to lash out blindly to defend what they are already intent on eliminating. instead of fearfully perceiving a risk for painful loss, one perceives an opportunity for release through sensible 'loss'. acting on that opportunity, one's attention is directed to dismantling the mechanism that triggered the feeling of threat (that is, the identity), rather than getting caught up in an internal argument trying to defend the indefensible, or getting caught up in trying to assault something or someone exterior which one perceives to be threatening.

the identity is fundamentally indefensible because it is merely a fabrication. the act of 'defending oneself' doesn't actually preserve 'me'; the act simply creates more 'me', and that act of self-justified self-generation is self-assuring. because that whole play is self-fabricated, anger always carries some sense of doubt, worry, dissociation, carelessness, etc. and that sense of insecurity is why anger feels particularly finicky, flighty, and fluttery.

the absence of a fabricated personality / the absence of conceit means that one is automatically safe and benevolent. that condition of benevolence is not, and cannot be, fabricated or generated. what is commonly meant and caused by a 'metta practice' is the opposite direction from this, because it is an exercise in fabricating feelings, which fabrication must be based on an identity (feelings are conceited by their very nature).

to practice metta that can actually eliminate conceit means thinking about it with a different context. such a practice is an active process of carefully dismantling one's identity, appreciating life's abundance so as not to grasp for further identification, enjoying the peace and ease of being sincerely intent on contentedness, and kindly wishing the best for one's self and others.

trent
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 5/4/12 3:11 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 5/4/12 2:58 AM

RE: why the natural goodness?

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Trent .:


the absence of a fabricated personality / the absence of conceit means that one is automatically safe and benevolent. that condition of benevolence is not, and cannot be, fabricated or generated. what is commonly meant and caused by a 'metta practice' is the opposite direction from this, because it is an exercise in fabricating feelings, which fabrication must be based on an identity (feelings are conceited by their very nature).

to practice metta that can actually eliminate conceit means thinking about it with a different context. such a practice is an active process of carefully dismantling one's identity, appreciating life's abundance so as not to grasp for further identification, enjoying the peace and ease of being sincerely intent on contentedness, and kindly wishing the best for one's self and others.


The fabricated metta seems to be the one that theoretically, according to what is presented in the metta sutta, fuels more rebirth, an identity with an arising and passing 'presence', placed in 'time' and 'space', taking birth again and again, from moment to moment and according to the text mentioned, in a corresponding deva realm.

"There is the case where an individual keeps pervading the first direction[1] — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with good will. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.
Adam , modified 11 Years ago at 5/4/12 10:44 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 5/4/12 10:44 AM

RE: why the natural goodness?

Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent Posts
thanks for the replies

trent:
what is commonly meant and caused by a 'metta practice' is the opposite direction from this, because it is an exercise in fabricating feelings, which fabrication must be based on an identity (feelings are conceited by their very nature).


nik:
The fabricated metta seems to be the one that theoretically, according to what is presented in the metta sutta, fuels more rebirth, an identity with an arising and passing 'presence', placed in 'time' and 'space', taking birth again and again, from moment to moment and according to the text mentioned, in a corresponding deva realm.


i've been using fabricated metta and fabricated disgust for the body as supplements to my main practice of trying to relax fabrication completely as antidotes to anger and sensual desire respectively. they can be skillful fabrications for certain situations. i guess it would be ideal to just be able to take the 'direct path' of the frames of reference, but if you are wandering off to the left of the path you have to go to the right to get back on. if one were to get stuck on these things then that would keep one from the end of suffering - but i still think they are skillful as long as one understands that they are a means to continued progress towards an end.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 5/4/12 7:06 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 5/4/12 4:37 PM

RE: why the natural goodness?

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Indeed, one must fabricate their path. Felicity is still a fabrication and utilized by the actualists. All those fabricated brahma viharas also are good antidotes for negativity so one can discern with more ease. But becoming aware of how they are fabricated and pertain to an 'identity' taking birth from moment to moment as well as how their cessation comes about is probably very wise if one's ultimate objective is to come out of the unsatisfactoriness of fabrications.

I like what Thanissaro had to say about fabrications:

Always trying to take this attitude of exploration. Use your powers of observation. Use your ingenuity to figure out how things work both in the body and the mind and see how far this process of fabrication can take you. You are not really going to let go of fabrications until you’ve pushed them as far as they can take you. That is what the last tetrad is all about. You begin to realize that the raw material from which you’ve been building these things has its limitations. It can provide only a certain amount of ease but because it’s inconstant that ease is going to wobble. And an ease that wobbles is not necessarily a very comfortable place to be.

Think of a chair with uneven legs, you’re sitting in the chair. You can’t really relax into the chair because the chair might tip over. You've got to stay tense at least a little to maintain your balance. That is the way it is with all the ease and pleasure that comes with anything fabricated. It requires a certain amount of tension to keep your balance.

There will come the point where you ask yourself is it worth. As long as the path hasn’t been fully developed, yes it is worth it. But as these factors get more and more developed you begin to realize this is as far as fabrication can take you. And you begin to lose your taste. You’re feeding on these fabrications, that is where dispassion comes in. You lose your passion for fabricating and because you lose that passion, the process of fabrication begins to fall apart because after all it did depend on factors coming out of the mind, the mind’s hunger for these things, its thirst for these things.

When it’s no longer hungry or thirsty, it just stops. And when it stops, everything else stops. That is where you let go of everything, even the path, even the discernment that got you there. This is how we understand fabrication. This is what insight is all about. Not just watching things arising and passing away but realizing the extent to which the mind causes them to arise and to pass away.

You've got to dig down into this deep level. That is why we work with the breath because the breath goes really deep into your awareness both of the body and of the mind. When you are close to the breath you are close to the sources of fabrication that is where you can see how these things come about. As you manipulate them you get a sense of their range. How far they can go and how far they can’t go.

This is why all of the great meditators of the past where not people who just got really tired of things and got really world weary and just stopped with a sense of depression. That is not how enlightenment is found or awakening is found. They really actively pursue it. How far can you go. What can you do to bring about true happiness. They used their ingenuity, they used the powers of observation. They actively explored. That is what brought them to the edge of fabrication and how they got beyond.

So try and approach the meditation as a process of exploration. You are exploring this process of fabrication in body and in mind. And the breath is a good place to start. A good foundation for your experiments.
http://dhammatalks.org/Archive/110829%20Exploring%20Fabrication.mp3

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