From reading the Hurricane Ranch thread I noticed this post:



So here are a load of questions:

I'm currently enjoying HAIETMOBA and I still like the 4 jhanas I can work on now. If I pursue more AF practices can I still practice jhanas? Or do jhanas need an "I" to practice? Is a highly developed PCE practice and 4th path in the same universe only described differently or are they completely different goals? I'm really confused here. At some point I want to use jhanas to develop a lovingkindness practice which develop up to the 3rd jhana.

I also wouldn't mind seeing what the benefits and failings of AF are as people see it now since Richard's website seems too narcissistic and cultish by half to be believed. Narcissism = "I" reified. Or are they pathologically disassociated?

Jhanas are fabrications of the mind. They are used to see how the mind fabricates. When one sees the cause of fabrications and its cessation, one has a means to drop the fabricating tendency of mind.

The sense of 'being', the sense of selfing, me-ness is a fabrication as well. PCEs , the full blown kind, the real deal, are the absence of fabrications of mind, thus no jhana, no sense of being/exisiting/presence/me-ness.

We attach importance to the fabricating tendencies of mind and are temporarily satisfied, such as your like of the 4 jhanas. The whole path that buddha taught , if we get all the schools together, mahayana, theravada, zen, and even actual freedom, the essence as far as I have an opinion on, is the dropping away of fabrications. Is your path and practice aiming to see the causes and cessation of fabrications of mind? or is it a path and practice of simply cultivating pleasant ones without the intention to see their cessation?

What is the ultimate goal of practice? That should be your answer and what informs your next move.

I was hoping I could use HAIETMOBA or vipassana noting while also developing a metta practice. I guess I still like variety. I thought that once I experienced a fruition I could continue down that path and still cultivate more jhanas and metta practice for example:

http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.ca/#!/2010/12/nicks-christmas-cheer-boom-boom-super.html

And you still seem to be able to do this while having a mixture of direct path/AF practices that have gone very far.

I think from my taste of HAIETMOBA I would prefer that to be a side practice to use once in a while as opposed to make anything permanent. I'm not sure where I read a post by you (DhO or KFD) but you said that metta practice helps with relationships adding fun and ease to them. I don't want to eliminate affect completely.

Well said.

Skillful fabrications like affectively felt metta or compassion make it easier to gain stability within the mind plagued by the hindrances (also fabrications). One can tame the self-narratives (fabrications) and make them more conducive to being able to see how fabrications arise and how their cessation come about. The actualists use the fabrication of 'felicity' and the EE (excellent experience) is still a fabrication trying to mirror its absence/abeyance (PCE). You fabricate your path for good or bad. If this is kept in mind, that these are still fabrications of mind, then when it comes time to take them all apart, there will be less or no attachment to such fabrications.

Metta can help fabricate a smoother path andone can leap to the initial jhanas from it. But keep in mind, fabrications are impermanent, work out your salvation yourself (see how all fabrications of mind are ultimately unsatifactory, see how they arise as well as their cessation).

A pliant, malleable and luminous mind is capable of that. What makes it pliant, malleable and luminous?

Yes. No more to add.

How very interesting, that answered some questions I've been having lately regarding metta and 'good moods' in general, thank you very much.

Simon

Hi, Simon and Nick,

I'm interested in the relation between metta and the actualist method (cultivate happiness and harmlessness). Here is my concern better worded by Trent...

Trent:



My doubt is if this kind of fabrication could trigger and fuel emotions like nurture, love, compassion, and point to a different direction (say, to "good" feelings, instead of "felicitous and harmless" ones)

After contemplating this, what I have been doing is approaching metta as a deconstructive and indirect exercise (desiring to tear down my own identities that cause suffering to others) more than a constructive and direct one (actively desiring well-being to people). In this way, it feels more like harmlessness (which I think is less driven) than compassion or love (that can set the trap to fall into heroic and blissful feelings, at least in me)

So, I am interested on what's your take on metta and its relationship to the path to AF specifically and practically, because I see a lot of potential if this is used well. Do you think the same practice is useful as it is? Do you recommend some adjustments? Any tips? What do you do in particular and how it relates to AF?

Cheers!

Affective fabricated Metta is an antidote to the hindrances, just like felicity as a fabrication can do for an actualist. It can lead to a calmer, steady and clearer mind. When the calmer, steady and clearer mind is in place, then one can attend to cultivating recognition of atammayata or what I consider to be the same as apperception. If affective metta is used without this notion of 'apperception' in mind as the main objective, then one can get trapped in the fabricating of conceit etc indefinitely. One has to fabricate the path. What do you think you are doing with felicity? Felicity still is conceitful at its core. All fabrications are. The metta that is free of affect, the metta that seems inherent in apperceptive awareness is fabrication free.

Your own 'self-narratives' are attracted to and motivated by the pure acualist practices and context, no? Stick with them. Don't bother with metta. What do you think being happy and harmless is anyway? Is there no good will within that? Don't mix if it causes the confusion that it seems to cause.

Stick with the AFT guidelines.

Though if the self-narratives are now attracted to 'metta' practice, then just keep in mind whatever fabrications lead to a calmer, malleable, pliant, steady and clearer mind are fabrications that can be used to get to the place where one can then simply attend to recognising apperception again and again. Apperception is key in all this. All the other practices that define the 'schools of thought' are practices that aim to lead one to this simple non-fashioning, non-fabricating, misery free awareness (apperception), where nothing is conceived, no 'objects', no 'subjects', but eveything functions perfectly fine, just without the whole 'you' overlay warping and colouring it all. If one keeps in mind that fabrications are fabrications and that one uses them as a means to an end, not as the end itself, then you will bypass the potential conceitful traps.

Hi Felipe,

I don't practice the AF methods, so I don't really have anything to say on that point.

Regarding metta, it has basically been my sole practice for the last few months, after a fashion. I don't see the metta as an end in itself, but rather as a wholesome focus to return to while watching for other things. For me, actively cultivating metta and a 'happy' mind has done loads for my general mood and well being, which has made both my daily life and practice much easier in many ways.

I have recently been thinking about the fabricated (good word there, not one I would have come up with) nature of pushing the mind towards 'happy' by way of metta and other methods, which is why I found Nikolais message interesting.

Simon

Just wanted to highlight this line in particular as it's really important to understand.

Right but you don't turn into Spock. You can actually laugh at jokes and cry at a film since no one is trying to make these emotions permanent (which would be some kind of neuroticism). What's bothersome is constant negative self-referencing leading to negative moods. My particular concern is dealing with people. If I appear to be unaffected then in certain circumstances at work and relationships that could be a help but if I appear to look at someone with no feeling of compassion (no malice either) those relationships could be strained when they get needy, and they will get needy, and when they want compassion they want to see it on your face. Of course one could use compassionate actions which are more important so I see why many here would look at AF is all that is needed. No one else will have to deal with you're psychological problems. That I can already see as a benefit with equanimity.

Kenneth Folk The Direct Path Part 5 (comparison in methods starts at 3:03
(I'm assuming this is an example of HAIETMOBA/Great perfection)

Nothing is stopping you or Ken from performing all the Jhanas of course you may have had shifts since this was recorded:

Ken and Nick Jhana tour

I know it's a lot of questions but I'm sure all the 4th pathers have asked these before.

You're just simply saying that you find the jhanas very crude because they are conditioned and there's no need for them anymore when direct perception (unconditioned) becomes the foreground when reactivity is attenuated to almost nil. It's the biggest emotional relief humanly possible. But if you wanted to behave in a way that would work with the general public (99% of the population that doesn't follow these practices) you could easily work with that by developing the fabrication habit of felicity. So no one would look at you as a robot or Spock but just a happy confident harmless person. I certainly don't want to talk to family like this:



I think I may have just answered my own question. Thanks for the replies. I'll pursue stream entry through investigation and practice jhanas then use the direct mode in many day to day activities. I can see how one path can help the other. Direct mode only started making sense when I looked at all my sensations at the same time and after I developed equanimity. Before that I was still zooming in on sensations while practicing HAIETMOBA. The investigation will be helpful when doing conceptual work since reactivity will be less bewildering and direct mode will be good when I'm using less processing power. I suppose one could always find some processing power to throw at an anxiety location in the body while reading or problem solving. Of course if in my lifetime I get bored of investigation I could go on direct path all the way. Remember I'm assuming that 4th path does not actually remove all reactivity even though the goal of all the methods is no reactivity. When the direct mode switch is turned off to go into problem solving, baseline equanimity will help. Trial and error is ultimately what everyone has to do because introspection is not the same as experience.

All fabrications are anicca, anatta and dukkha. That includes the 'good ones'.



Who has a stake in it? self narratives (fabrication) on both sides? They want to see it on your face? Howabout just smile without fabricating? Try it. In a fullblown PCE, see how you act. The term 'immeaurable friendliness' has been used to descfibe the absence of fabrications. It is emotion free, affectless. Don't limit yourself because of how 'self-narratives' view the necessity of 'emotions'.



His direct path may still involve the fabricated version of metta, karuna, mudita and equanimity. So I don't think it aims at recognising fabrication-free awareness. it might trigger it, but doesn't seem aimed at it.



Becasue I was at MCTB 4th MCTB 3rd (though when the centrepoint dropped away fabrications became 'sticky-free' only) where fabricating is still occuring and not something that was addressed until I was introduced to the actualist notion of apperception. In the pali suttas, jhanas are used to see how to cease fabricating. For myself, the mind still fabricates 'objects' within the field of experience which gives rise to a slight rumbling in the chest for example. So I'm ironing out the wrinkles still. I just don't have a felt sense of 'being' forming anymore.






I wouldn't worry about it. i'm married and my wife is happy with me.

Thanks, Nick, that was very useful.

I guess I just wonder if some fabrications are better than others in regards to get to apperception. To Richard, evidently the felicitous and innocuous feelings lead to this, and the "good" ones don't.

However, the key, as you say, is just to see for yourself what works, and never sincerely forget the PCE and pure intent as the anchors of every practice you follow. In this way, one cannot derail even if testing with new or different techniques.

Also, I ask because 1) I recognize the power of meditation to incline my mind towards clearer and more concentrated states during the day, and 2) I suspect that metta can help me to stop fueling my malice (what I don't want is the potential danger[?] of burying it under a pacifier feeling or antidote which creates delusion and perpetuates self. But, again, one can evade this with care and apperception in mind, I guess).

In my opinion, it is one's own 'self-narrative' that is influenced by what others say about their own paths that decides what works and what doesn't....the 'self-narratives', not the fact that some set of instructions worked for someone else. If the 'self-narratives' are convinced via the influence of 'others', then it will be conditioned to act/point in the way desired. If the 'self-narratives' are convinced by one's own logic, they will be conditioned to act/point in the way desired. Something to keep in mind if the end of suffering is one's goal.

Is this practice/cultivation aiming/aiding/supporting the movement towards an apperceptive fabrication-free awareness or is it just aimed at cultivating simply more fabricating tendencies?

Nick

Alright so if I want to test out AF I should cultivate HAIETMOBA all the time and I suppose as I get better at it I can continue enjoying activities like before but the answer to HAIETMOBA eventually becomes an excellent experience with repetition over an hour (which I probably have had already) and then that excellent experience turns into a PCE over cultivation over a longer period? Secondly how would I map these experiences via stream entry. Does cessation happen the same way because the Great Perfection leads to the same thing because it's all the same?

It might not be so linear. There are other factors that will help. There are the practices of attentiveness and sensuousness, dismantling the social identity, questioning the silliness of 'moods', consistently enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive and cultivation of naivete, sincerity and 'felicity' that act as the bridge to recognition of the point of pure sense contact (apperception in AF speak). Cultivating this recognition will eventually lead to triggering longer periods of pure uninterrupted apperception (PCE).



Don't map them period. Just aim for cultivating the PCE with the intent to see how it relates to your path. The mapping tendencies are part and parcel of a self-narrative that wants to know where 'he/she' is , where am 'I'? You don't need to map it. if the mapping tendency is strong, leave it till after a PCE, a full blown real deal one that lasts more than seconds (which i would simply call a highly refined EE for practice purposes to avoid the self narrative clinging to the idea that a real deal PCE was had possibly conditioning and hindering further experience/insight/progress) and lasts a period of time where true insight can arise into what really is absent, where one can gain all their motivation for further practice.



Cessation of what? Don't worry about how it maps with dzogchen view. Just simply give 100% to cultivating a PCE, then when it is had, you will be able to answer that question by yourself.

Hi,

Richard Zen:



This diagram illustrates the progression.

As Nikolai already said, is not that linear. You can have PCEs and EEs from the beginning, but what the method offers with time is the facilitation of those states, because it clears the obstructions (diminishes identities, difficult feelings), gives you breadcrumbs to return to purity and installs a baseline of stillness and felicity. Let's say that, with the constant practice of HAIETMOBA, the method progressively narrows the gap between the world of 'me' and the actual world, so one can jump to EEs and PCEs faster and easier, until one lives in an actual freedom.

If you have doubts about how to go about the fundamental questions of Actualism and how they may or may not be different to other ones, check this useful thread by Tarin.

Good luck

I like the following story the most about fabrications of the mind:

"Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, "The flag moves." The other said, "The wind moves." They argued back and forth but could not agree.

The Sixth Ancestor said, "Gentlemen! It is not the wind that moves; it is not the flag that moves; it is your mind that moves." The two monks were struck with awe."

http://buddhism.about.com/od/whoswhoinbuddhism/a/huineng.htm