Background: Practice is 3-4 hours a day - vipassana, shamata, kasina, whatever feel right at the time

About a month ago, I blipped out for a bit. This was literally like I teleported. Mind state was one way then completely something else in an instant. When I came back I was in A&P with the usual Daredevil vision looking around at the room through closed eyes. It was pretty nice. But...

Sits have gone to shit ever since. The SECOND I close my eyes now, the most intense vibrations I have ever experienced take over. Like Han Solo being encased in carbonite. Feels like I am being compressed into a ball. It's extremely strong, like I am metal and I am being tugged on my one of those giant magnets they use to lift cars at a junk yard. You get the idea. It was kind of cool at first, but it's pretty worrying now.

I haven't had too many sits I would call "good" ever since. I'm getting tugged into weird semi-dream states. No defense against it and it happens instantly. Mind is just swirling around every which way. Like "greatest hits of the self" type stuff and other random garbage. All my concentration seems gone. Disappeared.

Any ideas?

Thanks!  

One thought is non-linear meditative progression.  You may be getting somewhere in terms of the poi, but that won't automatically translate into better concentrated/ calm meditative states.  The whole point with the dark night in fact is that often it brings up a host of new challenges that we are suddenly forced to deal with.  Sitting with it and through it while still doing your best to remain grounded in sensations or whatever meditative object you're using might be your best bet. 

​​​​​​​"Good" sits might be out of reach, but it doesn't mean you're not still progressing.  IME the quality of any one meditation session is not as important as the greater overall trend in development toward insight, etc.

Hey thanks for the reply. I really needed to hear that. Still going and very grateful the ability to sit hasn't left along with the concentration. 

You are in the dukkha ñanas, allright. It seems to me that you still have concentration, though, because what you are describing is the dukkha ñanas with fairly good concentration in place. You are doing well. It can be a fascinating ride if you embrace it. My best wishes for your practice and wellbeing.

This thread exemplifies of one of the things I don't understand about the POI.

As far as I can tell noting is a fairly straightforward adaptation of the Satipatthana Sutta the sutra on establishing mindfulness. Noting is a way of cultivating mindfulness. When you practice mindfulness you cannot but help get understanding in dependent origination and  the three characteristics: impermanence, dukkha, and anatta, even if you don't think consciously in those terms you still get that just from being mindful.

So why don't people just practice noting, in sitting meditation and in daily life?

From threads like this it seems to me that people are spending most their mental effort on attaining the stages of POI when they should be focusing on seeing how the three characteristics play out in their mind, how dukkha arises from attachments and aversions, how there isn't anything you can find that can be considered self, how the idea of self changes from moment to moment. You can do that right now, this very moment. You don't have to wait to reach any particular stage. You can get awakened even if you are a crappy meditator by practicing in daily life. You don't need "good" meditation sessions that fulfill someone's definition of what you should experience. What you need is persistent mindfulness and that is not dependent on a particulary type of meditation.

As far as I can tell, one of the things people like about POI is that they can use the stages to compare themselves to other people, they know who is "better" and who is "worse" and where they fit in ... some day in the future. But that doesn't help you let go of attachments and aversions and make you mindful in the present moment. It gets you sucked in to attachments and aversions and distracted by hopes for the future. It is counterproductive.

So my advice is to watch your mind, noting is a fine way to do that, and notice when dukkha arises and how it fades, notice how you don't control your thoughts emotions impulses sensations or your sense of self, they aren't you or yours etc.

Don't worry about if your meditation is good or not, if you have vibrations, you can go out for a walk and watch your mind (practice noting) just as well as when you are sitting in a quiet room.

Your first concern should be watching your mind not attaining stages in meditation.

I think you're right. I went through 3 months of DN earlier this year and it was very rough. Much different this time, so I guess I didn't really put it together. But now that I think about it, it all fits. Been a tad moody lately Best wishes for your practice and wellbeing as well. Thank you so much for replying.

Big insights and "discontinuities" tend to open up the psyche and release deeper layers of suffering and clinging. Hence progress often feels like practice has gotten more challenging. That is to say, it's a positive sign

With the intense vibrations and physical-energetic effects deep relaxation is the key, but in practice that often means figuring out the subtle ways in which one is resisting the process. Sometimes that means less time sitting and more time exercising, doing grounding activities and generally taking care of yourself. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. Sometimes fully immersing oneself in a nondual experience of the vibration can help (if there is no perceiver of the experience then there is nothing to resist it!) But the opposite can also work - widening the scope of awareness until the harsh vibrations get subsumed into a broader and smoother energy field. It’s good to experiment, be creative and see what works for you.

But it’s important to note that it is a healing process which can take years or even decades, so it’s good to recalibrate your expectations and try to just flow with whatever experience is showing up in the present moment. Most experiences are bearable moment-by-moment. It’s only when we extrapolate them that they become an unbearable problem (what if it doesn’t go away?) which is a self-fulfilling prophecy. That in itself is a valuable insight into how we create our own suffering by resisting physical/emotional pain and projecting a time-based identity onto it.

​​​​​​​Jim, without meaning to be controversial and derail JP’s thread, I wonder how much this is true of others and how much might be projection.

Of course I used to be a very progress/comparison-driven meditator and, whilst I like to think I’m less like that these days, I could be projecting myself!

It’s just that I’ve noticed you voicing similar sentiments in the past, so maybe there is something to reflect on there. Or maybe not, in which case please excuse me, it’s just me.

Hey George, really appreciate the reply. Lots of solid, grounding advice there. Thank you. Yeah, I have kind of been hitting it from multiple angles. Just letting it take over and do its thing. Going wide and around it, looking for subtle contractions, burning it with the fires of vipassana, etc.  All kinds of stuff. There is a forced vibe to it which makes it kind of scary - but possibly that's a pointer to something. Not at all like what people describe with A&P, but just as intense. 

I think of anything vibrational or energetic (piti) as "A&P territory". When I started practicing I would pass though A&P in minutes. Later on, as I got into deeper strata of mind, I could be "stuck in A&P" for months at a time.

I am similar I think. A&P is sort of a default starting place or something? I am not super knowledgable of POI. But it's always (until now) shown up a certain way. Ahh who knows? I feel better just talking with you about it. Thank you so much.

Jim, I think your advice is very valid, but I think you might be misunderstanding what it is that people do when they are navigating the PoI. Sometimes the changes between ñanas are so confusing that focusing on the 3C:s can be difficult. The approach that worked so well for it suddenly doesn't work at all, because suddenly we see reality from a different angle. The navigation is something that we do in order to be able to do what you suggest that we do. Does that make any sense? We are not trying to move further along the cycle, really, but trying to stand firmly on a ground that is shaking and changing. 

I've had LOTS of vibrations in a variety of ñanas. Around the time of stream entry, I could usually recognize the ñanas from the vibrations as they differed from ñana to ñana. Thanks to that, I knew what biases I needed to look out for as those differed from ñana to ñana as well. 

Wow Jim. Do you have an axe to grind?
Here we have a person asking politely for advice, and notice that he has only 9 posts, and what do you do? You call him out based on your own projections and then try to shame him or being 'guilty' of your accusations that are your own interpretations of his post.

Below I have taken your own words and added my own projections to illistrate my point. Please take it with a light heart as that is how it is meant.

Your post exemplifies of one of the things I don't understand about rudeness. As far as I can tell politeness is a fairly straightforward adaptation of the 8 fold path. Right speach is a way of cultivating morality. When you practice politeness you cannot but help get understanding in right speach and right action and  morality , even if you don't think consciously in those terms you still get that just from being polite. So why don't people just practice morality, in sitting meditation and in daily life? From posts like this it seems to me that people are spending most their mental effort on attaining concentration and wisdom when they should be focusing on seeing how the other parts of the 8 fold path play out in their mind, how dukkha arises from ignoring the other parts of the 8 fold path, how there isn't anything you can find that can be considered self but we still need to act towards others as if they have a self that can be disrespected, how the practice of politeness gives you the opportunity to learn loving kindness from moment to moment. You can do that right now, this very moment. You don't have to wait to reach any particular stage. You can get morality even if you are a crappy meditator by practicing in daily life. You don't need politeness that fulfills someone's definition of what you should experience. What you need is persistent morality training and that is not dependent on a particulary type of meditation. As far as I can tell, one of the things people like about the 8 fold path is that they can use the stages to compare themselves to other people, they know who is "better" and who is "worse" and where their morality fits in ... some day in the future. But that doesn't help you let go of attachments and aversions and make you moral in the present moment. It gets you sucked in to attachments and aversions and distracted by hopes for future kindness. It is counterproductive. So my advice is to watch your mind, morality training is a fine way to do that, and notice when dukkha arises from your actions, notice how you don't control your thoughts emotions impulses sensations without morality training, they spontainously arise without effort etc. Don't worry about if your not always perfect, if you have been rude, you can do your best to fix it and watch your mind (practice morality) just as well as when you are working on concentration and wisdom. Your first concern should be good karma not attaining stages in meditation.
Best wishes,
​​​​​​​~D

Miscommunication maybe Everyone has been very helpful.

Jim's post didn't strike me as rude at all. I just read it as an alternate take. That's not to say that the OP couldn't have been upset by Jim's post, so I am not saying you are wrong. It's just interesting that the same black marks on the same light blue background can point to different things for different people. 

Investigate what is making the moment "unpleasant". Find the dukha that is making your experience a negative one. The vibrations are just vibrations. It's the reaction/tension/aversion/clinging/dukha that I'd recommend investigating. That little unpleasant tension that always seems to be there. It can be intense or very subtle. There's gold at the end of that rainbow!!

Please reread the relevent part - The point I am trying to make, that apparently you missed, is that when people project upon others - you get a lot of B.S. I could not agree more, especially if they skip over relevent portions. (smiles) ~D ​​​​​​​

I guess it's not that it "unpleasant" as much as a fear that it is persisting. It just keeps going. This feels like I'm peaking on 5g of shrooms, but without that nice release at the end If I am honest, there is also fear that I have meditated myself into a corner - somehow the brain is now conditioned to just make these chemicals that are doing this. I know! It's silly, but I was hoping someone else might have experienced something similar - or just a "yeah that happened to me, it went away after awhile" lol

I went through a period where the vibrations were very intense. So much so, that I considered making an appointment with a neurologist. Those vibrations changed as I practiced. The fear is aversion, which is a form of resistance. The more you resist or push away at something, the worse it can get. Like a feedback loop. Those vibrations are there, so except and embrace them. Don't try to make them go away, just let them do their thing. If you feel you have meditated yourself into a corner, you must think that you have some control over how all this progresses. Let go of that assumption. The sense of control is an illusion, just a thought to make the ego feel better. Be kinder to yourself, have more fun, use your intuition, embrace your emotions, don't push them away. Fear is ok. Vibrations are ok. Not knowing what to do next is ok.

A good reminder. Whew what a relief!

Over 2 years later and this condition continues.

Still powerfully intense but much less "dense". It can move into the throat and upper chest but still mostly in the forehead and crown. It can often feel very pleasurable. Even if there is strong pressure, it is no longer as painful as it was in the beginning.

I did the due dilligence of getting an MRI. Everything normal.

Is this kundalini? Who cares. I gave up on trying to figure out anything about this. It's just the way it is now.

Thanks for following up. Have you continued meditating? Has your way of seeing changed (in other words, have you had any new lasting insights)?

I'll reply in the same was as I did to a similar topic three days ago.

As far as I know, there is no way to stop the kundalini process. Once the bottle is opened, it's opened. The best you can do is learn to live with it and minimize its intensity.

You can get hints and tips for living with k in many places. The community I know best is Shalom Place. Some years ago Tara Springett used to be a member, and she also has her own site with books and a one-on-one counseling practice. And there's also an emergency advice section on the AYP Site, and you can read the archives of posts requesing advice on r/kundalini.

Hope you find something that works for you.

@Martin, I have continued to practice but have taken long breaks from pure sitting here and there. But stopping sitting does
not affect this at all. In some ways, I have had to learn how to sit again from scratch. Small realizations have continued to
occur, but nothing like the Big Bang of the first insight. Development seems gradual, but steady.

@Derek2 yeah whatever this is, nothing is going to stop it. It's all been tried...even very very weird shit. I'm not looking for relief or understanding
at this point. Justed wanted to report it, because I know that other people deal with this and there isn't really a lot out there that is definitive.

You mention that it is often pleasurable. That interests me because my own (which is a heat sensation, rather than vibrations) is mostly pleasurable now, even though it was unbearably intense five years ago (I used to walk outside with my shirt unbuttoned in the middle of winter to try and get relief). It comes and goes in waves with amplitudes of several months. I am near a crest at the moment and there is a flow of warmth up the right side of my chest as I write this. I find it reassuring, which is an inexplicable reaction, as I have no idea what I am being reassured of (that the world is weird? that I cannot hope to understand or control all of my sensate experience? that there is more going on than I know?). Sometimes it's annoying, but mostly not. 

How do you feel about yours? Would you turn it off permanently if someone showed you the switch?

Ha, I absolutely would turn it off if there was a switch. Maybe that's why there is no switch. At times I have thought it was some kind of battle raging between "inherent view" and "non-duality". Maybe some part of my mind desperately trying to put things back together like "no, no, you really are located in your head. Here is the boundary!" Other times it is like some Gordion knot trying to untie itself. When it is pleasurable sometimes it's just too pleasurable. Like come on man, this feels too good - and this can get uncomfortable too.

This only choice available is to be at peace with it and not resist it in any way. Don't touch it, poke it, investigate it, amplify it...whatever. Don't do anything. The fires of vipassana will do nothing here. 

Interesting!

Yeah JP I feel you, I have something very similar. For me, I have like this head pressure in my head (which comes for a least a few hours a day these days). It feels like just this oozing contraction, but  the whole thing seems somehow connected to body/head shaking when my mind gets fairly concentrated (like i went on a 2-month retreat and shook every sit ). This kind of stuff has been going on for maybe 1.5 years? It's slowly been dissipating, but over the course of years(!!!) at this point.

I have come across this idea in a few places that meditation in a very direct way is rewiring your physiology - one thing you hear reported by some advanced yogis is them being able to see their energy channels, and resolve blockages and the like. My experiences has shown some of these remappings (like I had bad anxiety for awhile that I was massively adverse to until one day the texture changed and while still unpleasant it lacks the dramatic qualities it used to have), but in my case this kind of stuff has taken a long time of consistent practice.

Geoffrey - yeah "oozing contraction". I relate to that description for sure. Like a lava lamp. Mine has dissipated as well, it's particles now instead of steel plates, but it still can be intense.

Along with this there seemed to be a lot of dark night type stuff where every shitty thing I have ever done in my life has been brought up for review. Every embarrassment, shame, etc. Also a seemingly bottomless well of grief. I think I cried every day for over a year. So, in some ways it feels like a kind of purification process. But maybe the place where I used to stuff those things down isn't there anymore.

The longer I practice the less I seem to know anything for certain.

Good stuff Geoffery and JP.

I know this isn't any new information, but one thing I've noticed is that vibrations/kundalini tends to be an extraneous process that's associated with insight/wisdom. My premise is that the sensations are more of an artifact of psychological development/growth than "the thing" that is most important.

There is usually a bunch of vibrational stuff that happens after A&P and this can go off and on for a long time...

One half of a big observation is that being adverse to it or trying to fix it or trying to make it go away never quite seems to work. It often feeds off the attention you give it. And then it is always hanging around in the background, haunting you.

The the other half of it is that indulging in it often leads to too much sensation, even too much pleasure sometimes. And then you become kinda manic.

So in a funny way our >reaction< to vibrations is very dark night stuff.  The important thing is to neither indulge nor ignore.

Meanwhile, the bodily sensations are often associated with old memories old feelings old repressions old fantasies... very psychological. JP, you said it quite well, there seems to be a purification that happens.

The point is the vibrations ARE killing "you" -- but it's the old egotistical "you" that feels like it should be in control and determine what happens in experience; it's the old psychological "you" that feels like it can repress some true thoughts and indulge in fantastical thoughts; it's old physical "you" that has shoved down memories of experience into the body temporarily... etc. etc.

But this is also true without the vibrations, the dark night nanas are killing "you" too. (The vibrations/kundalini is entirely optional in a sense, but the training is the same....) This is exactly what needs to be learned for all the dark night nanas, dissolution, fear, misery, disgust, desire for deliverance, reobservation. Each nana builds another dimension of learning to accept experience of dissolving, fright, sadness, anger, self-improvement, and self-defeat. Only after going through all of that does a much more mature and equanimous possibility exist. 

What is left after the dark night and after kundalini is a much more mature and accepting "you". Sort of the analogy that a impure copper wire doesn't conduct electricity well and will heat up when current flows through it, while pure copper doesn't "resist" the current flow. 

My experience is that there really isn't anything to do or say about kundalini/vibrations except don't ignore and don't indulge --- and mostly notice your psychological reactions to the sensations more than paying attention to the sensations. In other words, you can use vibrations as a very interesting meditation object -- but make sure you are also noticing and noting your thoughts and emotions, too. 

Best wishes!

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, shargrol. Everything you said rings true in my experience. 

You mention the "old you" and things dying off. I feel like a ton of that type of stuff was vaporized during my "I AM" (I'll call it this because people know what that is). This was almost 4 years ago now. It was literally like one person sat down and someone else got up. There was a certain clarity after that was just not there before. My behavior/personality profoundly changed overnight. There has been a slow, steady "dying off" since.

Perhaps this is about reconciling the past in some way? It can be freaking brutal that's for sure, but it doesn't get as dark anymore as it did at the beginning. 

Anyway, I am not sure what to do really. I just acknowledge the thoughts and feeling as they come up. Sometimes I might just say "I'm sorry". Sometimes I just burst into tears. Strange thing is there is a kind of equanimity around it all. Life is peaceful for the most part. 

I'm sad to hear there was so much suffering. I'm also glad to hear there was a sense of purification. Lack of certainty seems to be a very positive indicator. Thanks again for letting us know how it has been going. 

Yer reading my mail JP

Have you tried Tylenol or Turmeric?  (Serious question)

What about physical exercise?  Especially anything that feels 'grounding' that is going to get you out of your head and into your body and into the earth.  

I dealt with head and neck pressure for a while, and it's mostly gone away or is at least maneagable to the point where I hardly notice it anymore.  It does get a little bit worse if tired.  Unfortunately I don't really know what I did to make it go away, if anything, I suppose it just happened naturally.  

JW,  I have tried every OTC pain killer, many different diets, grounding, qi gong, Hakuin's "soft butter" meditation (and other similar meditations), yoga, yoga nidra, accupuncture, chiropractor, various binaural frequencies, psychedelic mushrooms and many more things I will not admit to in a public forum. Not a dent. Like using an umbrella from a cocktail drink to go into a hurricane.

Anything I have tried that seems to work only turns out to be a coincidence. Nothing repeatable. This is beyond the pressures and energy imbalances that meditators report. This does what it wants and nothing can reach the space it is is occurring. Might be a malady of consciousness itself for all I know, Or it might be ultimately helping me. No clue. My vitals and blood work have all been normal. There are no corresponding physical symptoms like rapid heart beat, high blood pressure, etc. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Damn, well, I'm sorry. Best of luck with everything, I hope that you find relief from this discomfort.

Hi, please read this post and see if you find it helpful.

https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/s/iWX9NVmxA7

This is literally the only thing I have read about my condition that makes any kind of sense. When it started I was doing a TON of kasina meditation that was very forceful and full of effort. I need to go through your post carefully and translate the TMI (bc I am not a TMI guy but I have the book). 

Not sure if this ties in to your methods bc my language is different, but lately I have been doing this: soften attention and have awareness open wide such that the entirety of the body is within awareness - feet to the top of the head - aware of the touch points of the body. Attention seems to forcibly get pulled around. But I adjust back to the full body. 

​​​​​​​Does this sound similar to what you are describing?

Mostly yes, what you are saying is probably in line with what I intended in that article on reddit. Communication is difficult so I believe that there are some nuanced differences in our respective understanding - I may be wrong about this, we may actually be perfectly aligned, I dont know. In that article what I wanted to say, If I tried to be succint yet comprehensive

1. Attention is by its nature a phenomena that encourages a sense of me
2. There is the attentional arrow, a sense of me sitting at the nock end and an 'object' at which the arrow is pointing
3. This is seductive, when we do attentional training it leads to more and more 'power' and 'clarity' being pumped into attention
4. Awareness on the other hand, not just of the body but of all six sense doors including thoughts and thinking pattern, is receptive. There is a sense of receiving and this sense does not involve an on the fly 'me' who is doing the receiving
5. Attentional training leads to raw power being pumped into attention at the cost of awareness, so an increased sense of doing (parsing, sifting, investigating, holding of objects) versus receiving rather than doing

Attentional training if done without including instructions to balance power between attention and awareness leads to symtoms that are :

1. Referred to as kundalini
2. Referred to as energetic blockages
3. Involve pain and a loss of functionality and peace of mind

As wisdom practitioners we are not interested in rewiring of highly esoteric electrical / electromagnetic / spiritual energy circuits
We are only interested in the four noble truths and making them 'happen'

We want to see personally in direct experience what dukkha actually is - sans all conceptual overlay
We want to see personally in direct experience what tanha/trishna/tahaan/thirst is - sans all conceptual overlay
We want to fucking stop it
And we have a plan, a very systematic methodical plan to make that happen

This weird set of symptoms get in the way. These weird set of symptoms are an error! they are a bug! they are not a feature of a wisdom practice

​​​​​​​I spent the rest of the article explaining how to fix that bug once and for all.

Tummo practice provides a framework for what these sensations are- they are "rising wind". The practice addresses and "treats" these sensations, as they are a symptom of a problem of prana. Your wind is concentrating in your upper chakras, causing unpleasant symptoms that arise as a result of meditation. You need to get your wind into your central channel just below your navel. Tummo concentrates attention on a meditation object just below the navel and utilizes breath techniques to force wind into that area, thus addressing the problematic rising wind. If I didn't also go through what you are going through, I would have thought what I just wrote was insane, but my experience showed me that it is true. Or as true as this mystery of experience can be!
I would recommend that you talk to a qualified Tummo teacher. 
There are other techniques and teachings that are out there that I believe were designed to prevent this, such as how Zen teaches to concentrate on a spot below your navel. Good luck!