Hi DO Community,

​​​​​​​I recently discovered this forum and have been enjoying it a lot - thank you. I wanted to ask if anyone could help determine whether I've hit stream entry based on my description below albeit I understand it's difficult to diagnose online. I attended a Mahasi retreat about 1.5 years ago in Thailand. Before that, I had been meditating on and off for about 7-9 years, mostly practicing Anapanasati, Kriya Yoga, and other spiritual disciplines. Around day 4 of the retreat, after consuming a lot of coffee, I experienced a significant shift, which has remained with me since. I call it the shift into the witness or awareness. It can get quite intense at times, feeling as if I'm walking without a body, with awareness floating by itself. I can feel total emptiness and spaceiousness. For instance, at a wedding a few months ago, while clapping my hands, I looked down and saw my hands moving independently, with 'me' just witnessing the action. But the 'me' was signifcantly detached from the clapping of the hands. It's as if I'm a few steps back physically from how I used to interact with the world. This sensation is also obvious when I type on my phone, laptop, go for walks etc. - I feel like I'm walking around headless, a bit like Richard Lang's "Headless Way."

Before this shift, I couldn't grasp what it might feel like to have no centre, but now I get a real sense of what people describe with no-self. I still experience neurotic content and suffering, but my perception of reality has obviously changed. At times, the witness is very strong, and week by week, I feel like I'm losing more of 'me.' However from time to time I still get wrapped up in emotions, stories and the dream-like state of life. That being said, there's significantly more distance from thoughts. I can see thoughts arising and passing (not all of them) and therefore have less attachment to some mental content. I feel like I've seen through the first three fetters and no-self. However, some describe stream entry as a significant watershed moment, so I'm curious if my experience resembles it. That being said, fetters 4 and 5 and the pushing / pulling on experience still happens. Less so, but still there. Additionally, I have no desire for loads of distractions and can sit contentedly for long periods. Many things that used to fetter me no longer do. I've definitely changed and become a rather simple person, in a liberating way, although I know there's still more progress to be made. My meditation sits go pretty deep and I'm hitting absorbed states of formlessness, although from time to time I still work through periods of agitation. Dependent origination makes total sense to me now and the Buddha's teachings resonate deeply - everything makes sense and I have complete faith in the path. I've been experiencing some dark night phases, but nothing too intense. I am currently at the fear, disgust and deliverance stage and am heading to Asia next week for another big retreat.

Would appreciate any insights or thoughts on my experiences - thank you!

J

I don't know if this is relevant, and as you can see from my thread I've got my own issues to deal with.  So take it or leave it.

But I reckon the stress of prolonged meditation can sometimes be met with an ego defence without us realizing it.  It can create a new partition in the mind, to use a computer analogy.  The 'me' goes into the new partition and leaves the 'old me' at some distance.  Sort of like dissociation.  Have you ever read about DID?  Everyone dissociates at some point in their lives, and it's not a big deal - usually a mild thing.  The new partition makes the meditator feel like he's abiding as the witness when actually that's not the case.  Just a newly created ego watching the old familiar one from a distance.  The newly created ego has no history and therefore little baggage, so feels unburdened by memory, fear & desire.  Possible?

Thanks Jim, although this doesn't ring too true.

A Zen dharma teacher I met said ​​​​​​​ the witness stage is a stage, it is a sign of progress.

It also reminds me of the attached image stage 2.

Appreicate the reply though.
​​​​​​​

Well JG, these sorts of things are associated with A&P in general. There can be very powerful changes. 

I would suggest focusing on your next retreat and making it a good one. If you are pre SE it will be a lot of vipassina, if you are post SE it will be a lot of jhana --- but it's always about relaxing into your present experience and gently and consistently noting. 

A good preparation is to think about the notes that are common for you in the nanas -  are you ready to gently and consistently note whatever arises?

Hi Shargol

Thanks for your reply, it does seem like A&P territory...

I arrive next Wednesday at the meditation centre and yes, I plan to give it my all.

When you say "pre SE it will be a lot of vipassina, post SE it will be a lot of jhana" what exactly does that mean? I'm not sure whether you also spelled Vipassina that way on purpose.

Yes, I am ready to consistently note whatever arises.

When you say "think about the notes that are common for you in the nanas" the 4 that come to mind include fear, disgust, disenchantment and desire for liberation - these are common. Do you mean that even when the going gets tough, I should continue to note states like this?

Sounds good. I'm not sure how long your retreat is, but in general "consistent but non-heroic effort" tends to work best on retreat.

Sometimes people get so intent of giving it their all that they forget to note/notice all the sensations, emotions, and thoughts associated with giving-it-all --- as a result, they really don't get a clear insight into their mind/experience because they keep overlooking and forget to note all that effort they are doing!

Gentle but consistent practice is often the best way to go, especially for longer retreats. The mind decides what appears in attention and you just gently note something -- simple and easy.

Sorry, bad speller!   I just meant if you already hit the stream then you'll know because your sits will be very jhanic; if you are pre-SE then it will be standard stuff to note, normal sensations, emotions, and thoughts.

Actually, I meant something sightly different: it can be good to think about how each the nanas tend to show up for you. e.g. What is the way fear shows up? what are the ways you react to it? What are the stories you tell yourself? How do you cope? What are you going to do when all of that happen?If you don't already have a lot of experience with these nanas, then it's obviously a "wait and see" kind of thing, but many people have patterns that tend to repeat during these nanas. For example, I know that if I'm getting weepy and just want to stop and sleep --- oh, that's misery. And I plan ahead, what am I going to do when I'm getting weepy and just want to stop? I'm going to keep sitting and study the misery nana! What does it feel like? what are the sensations? what are the emotions and thoughts? Why do I want to stop? What is really being hurt? My body is fine, I'm safe, there is nothing I need to do --- so why the misery? What am I trying to protect? Probably I'm feeling like a failure. And maybe I feel miserable to take the edge off of feeling like a failure... (I didn't know all of that at first, but that's the sort of thing that insight gives you...)So anyway, pre-retreat I remind myself that if I'm doing a lot of "sad" "weepy" "want to quit" notes...  I'm going to remember to learn why misery makes sense... and also why it isn't a complete answer. I'm going to learn about myself.
​​​​​​​
And I do that for all the nanas, if I can. And then when I go to retreat, I'm sorta prepared.That's the sort of thing I was recommending -- kind of mentally rehearsing/preparing for the challenging stuff. 
Hope that helps in some way, but definitely don't bother if it doesn't seem appropriate for you.

For example, I know that if I'm getting weepy and just want to stop and sleep --- oh, that's misery.

Love this - sound advice. I cycle through fear, boredom and tiredness but I will investigate them further vs reacting to the content. Great indication to carry on with noting and learn more about the nanas that show up for me.

Sorry, bad speller!   I just meant if you already hit the stream then you'll know because your sits will be very jhanic; if you are pre-SE then it will be standard stuff to note, normal sensations, emotions, and thoughts.

I have a lot of jhanic stuff currently, but will be able to asses better once I'm in the retreat and in a deeper state of practice.

Sounds good. I'm not sure how long your retreat is, but in general "consistent but non-heroic effort" tends to work best on retreat.

It will be either 3 weeks, 3 months, or somewhere in between - I will see how I get on and what I can manage. Right now I do feel called to really crack on, so to speak, and see what progress I can make. 

Thanks again for your replies, they have been incredibly useful and I'll take note for when I enter retreat next week :-) 

Okay, long retreat(!) --- where are you doing it?

In that case, definitely take it easy. Simply stick to the retreat schedule as best you can and become intimate with the experience of being a human on retreat. There is nothing special about any particular sensation, emotion, or thought -- so just really let yourself enjoy living in the intimate simplicity of the present moment. The insights will come, don't worry. 

In the athletic world, you can strive to train to achieve the last 2% of performance, but training that way risks too much fatigue and injury. It's the same thing on retreat, you can be neurotic about practicing 100% perfectly, but that will just burn you out. Just put in a good 72.2394834% effort in the present moment and things will work out.

Retreats are always challenging. The funny thing about it is that every retreat challenge can be fixed by a deep sigh and regaining perspective. You're just a human walking/sitting on a cushion in a safe place with nothing to do --- so any problem or challenge is something that YOU are bringing to the situation. And then you get curious, why do I "need" this problem right now? What is it giving me? And what is the cost of having this problem instead of being a human in a safe place with nothing to do? Can I note the problem? Can I let the problem be?

There can be a temptation to try and "fix" retreat problems, but that is getting wrapped up in a story, in a role, in a drama. This especially happens a few days in when the mind is becoming powerful. Suddenly you "know" what to do, how to improve your life, how to improve your practice...  That's fine, but just note it. Maybe write a few sentences down about it, but definitely note it. "problem solving thoughts", "life planning thoughts", "perfecting practice thoughts", etc. Problems arise on retreat and if you let them be, they will also pass. Most of the time you really don't need to do anything at all. 

The mind will want to entertain itself with storys and roles and dramas... mostly in a clever way to avoid the simple and intimate experience of being a human on retreat. Because the ego seems to know you don't need to be a special somebody on retreat. You just need to be a lump of red flesh sitting on a cushion in which the breath goes in and out. Nothing special. You could even say "not-self".

So gently train the mind to notice the flowing, not-self nature of sensations, emotions, and thoughts in the present moment. And notice how whenever we complicate things, it becomes dukka. Even the most interesting story and role and dramas... are an exciting kind of suffering. So just sigh, note it, and return to being a human on retreat.

The mind intuitively knows how to make meditation progress, but you have to gently keep pointing it back to the experience of the present, right now, THIS.

When it doubt, go back to basics: mindfulness of breathing, making a gentle note on each exhale. If you have a problem, note it. If you have an grand idea, noteit. If you have a pleasurable sensation, note it. If you have an annoying sensation, note it. If you are feeling emotional, note the emotion. Simple.

And remember it is 100% okay to enjoy the simplicity of being a human on retreat. You don't need to strive or achieve (if you are striving or achieving, note it). You can enjoy the simple pleasures of simpliciy. And you are definitely allowed to enjoy the simple pleasures of jhanas when they arise. 

If you are ever having doubts, note one thing -- perfect, you are in the present moment, whatever it is. Done! It's that simple. Can you find a sensation associated with breathing? Great, you're back in the present moment. Having doubts are fine, note the doubt, note something in the present moment. You're meditating again!   


Hopefully these hard-learned lessons will be helpful to you. Best wishes for your retreat. Definitely make good use of the teachers, it's important to have people for asking questions and getting feedback.

 Wat Chom Tong in Chiang Mia. It's where I sat my last 10 day retreat which was transformational. Difficult, but transformative nonetheless. Your reply has some absolute nuggets of gold - I may even print this thread off and bring it with me - thank you for such wisdom and insight. They offer 21 days and a 10 day advanced course which you can apparently repeat with a few days break in between. Completing 1 month would be marvellous, anything more would really be a bonus.  I can resonante - boredom, tiredness, fear came up last retreat and the mind had a wonderful way of interperating it all instead of just noting it! How simple this practice is yet also challenging. I will definitely try to bring more humaness to the retreat this time round. Just a human on retreat. Nothing special going on here..! Easier said than done but with a printed reminder of this thread, it might just keep me on track...  

​​​​​​​Absolutely, I will take it easy. I am sure my levels of enthusiasm will fluctuate between intense sitting periods and moments where I come off the gas. They have a beautiful lake there which I imagine I'll visit when I need to take my foot off the gas. Noted also re no-self. Yes they have great teachers there and it's clean and comfortable for retreat.  Thanks again for all your insight and well wishes - very much appreciated and super helpful. 

Can we just say that if a person is inquiring as to wether or not they have entered the stream, they are still pretending they are unaware of the fact that they are in (or just are) the stream and are therefore metaphorically not in the stream? funny stuff, peace

Actually, stream entry is typically diagnosed by a teacher. Yogis are traditionally uncertain about it and both yogis and teachers change their mind about it. A standard piece of advice for self-diagnosis is to wait a year before deciding that you have attained to it. 

... So who diagnosed the first stream winner?

AI;
In Buddhism, particularly in Theravada tradition, Stream Entry (Pali: Sotāpanna) refers to a significant milestone on the path to enlightenment. It is characterized by the “total ending” of the first three fetters (samyojana):

1. The fetter of self-view: the belief in an eternal and unchanging self or ego.
2. Doubt and uncertainty about the Dhamma: uncertainty about the teachings of the Buddha.
3. Grasping at precepts and practices: attachment to specific rules and rituals.

Upon achieving Stream Entry, an individual:

• Has broken these three fetters, freeing themselves from their influence.
• Has gained a clear understanding of the Four Noble Truths and the nature of reality (Anatta).
• Has eliminated the possibility of being reborn in hell, as a hungry ghost, or as an animal.
• Has a maximum of seven lifetimes remaining before achieving full enlightenment (Arhatship).

The term Stream Winner is often used interchangeably with Stream Entry. It emphasizes the idea that, having entered the stream of liberation, the individual is now carried downstream by their understanding and insight, making progress towards full enlightenment.In essence, Stream Entry marks a significant turning point in an individual’s spiritual journey, as they have overcome the initial obstacles and are now poised for further growth and development towards full liberation.

-now one may self diagnose. 

Self diagnosis is easier for some than others. 

It's pretty obvious when it happens I think but yet it is common for people to think they have it when they do not. We can have temporary experiences that can lead one to believe they are stream enterers and so on. 

​​​​​​​As someone who uses AI everyday and studies the suttas. I've got to be honest. I'm going to take my meditation advice from human beings whose experience and integrity I can vet through conversation.

​​​​​​​The reason we meditate in the first place is the reason it's useful to have a teacher because you wouldn't need to if you weren't already deluding yourself. 

The traditional answer to that would be the Buddha. The Buddha himself is not traditionally understood to have gained stream entry first and then the other "paths" later, so the question "Who diagnosed the Buddha?" would not need to be asked. 

I don't actually know much about attainment maps and diagnoses so I really should not be talking about this. I just wanted to point out that it isn't traditionally understood to be a simple and obvious thing. 

You are right though, most people who ask don't have it but that's because the desire to ask about it may indicate that the first fetter (self-view) has not been broken. 

Although, once one attains some level of insight they may still continue to meditate regardless of any reason, after all a sharp knife cuts better than a dull one. Reasons are tied to dualism, one who has attained non-dualistic insight is 'beyond' reason. Meditation changes, as do all things. 

​​​​​​​So we can just attack a person who claims to have entered the stream to see if we can offend them... for their benefit of course!

No, I wouldn't say so. And I'm sorry if I made it sound like that was what I was saying. It's pretty common on this forum to claim to have entered the stream, by the way, and it is generally celebrated.  

Your original question was "Can we just say that if a person is inquiring as to wether or not they have entered the stream, they are still pretending they are unaware of the fact that they are in (or just are) the stream and are therefore metaphorically not in the stream?" What I was trying to say in response to that was more along the lines of, "It's not weird to ask about it." and "Yes, I can also agree with your point. But possibly for different reasons." But if a person is not asking, but rather announcing, that they have attained to stream-entry, then I would not challenge or reject that. When someone tells me they have an attainment, I respect the claim. It's a great thing to enjoy the fruits of practice! 

I probably misunderstood the gist of your question and I'm not very good with maps in the first place. 

No no, you were clear, that was just an attempt at humor. If it is possible to throw someone off by attacking their character then it's a sign that they haven't entered the stream. So for the benefit of anyone making such a claim, why not just insult them and see if they become offended? XD haha

Me thinks it would be funny to challenge them... for their benefit of course! Like a good sparring parnter or so. Alan Watts mentioned this in book 'The Way of Zen', here is a summary of it.

Alan Watts discusses the practice of monks testing each other in his book The Way of Zen. He describes how Zen monks would often engage in verbal sparring or "koan duels" to challenge each other's understanding of Zen principles and to test their ability to remain calm and centered in the face of provocation.These tests could take many forms, such as:

• Koan challenges: Monks would present each other with koans, enigmatic riddles or puzzles that require a non-logical response.
• Verbal sparring: Monks would engage in debates or arguments, often using paradoxical or contradictory statements to challenge each other's understanding.
• Physical challenges: In some cases, monks might engage in physical tests or contests to demonstrate their discipline and self-control.

The goal of these tests was not simply to win or lose, but to deepen the monks' understanding of Zen principles and to cultivate a sense of detachment and equanimity. Watts emphasizes that these tests were not about competition or ego, but rather about spiritual growth and enlightenment.

​​​​​​​

Hey there,
there is no need to lose "you". In fact it's probably dangerous & fortunately quite impossible, hopefully. And anyway, there is no single "you". There are many "yous".

This "no-self" thing is quite misunderstood. It leads a lot of people into blind alleys.

The "me" is just a manifestation of Reality. Reality itself cannot be apprehended. But this doesn't mean that it's ACTIVITY isn't experienced. In fact, it is obvious.
While writing these words, I hear sounds, see sights, feel my body & feel that all this is happening to "me". This is perfectly alright. The problem is discriminating between all these manifestations of Reality & giving the "me" a different status from the rest.
Nothing has a "substantial, independent, permanent" existence. Not the world out there. Not the "self" in here. Nowhere to stand.
But this certainly doesn't require one to lose his "me or I". This is one of the  biggest misunderstandings in spiritual circles in all traditions.
This mistake is the result of intellectual understanding without actual experience. A LOT of book authors & teachers have only an intellectual understanding & are good writers and/or talkers and mislead seekers for material gain.
This is certainly why I like D Ingram so much. Because he earned his living as an MD and didn't need students' money. In fact I  recently decided to discard the teachings of almost any teacher who relies on students money for his living. The material incentives for him to mislead are just too high. This is also why Buddhism in Asia & now America is just a business like any other. (Forgive) my rant).

I hope this is helpful.

So,
a "realized" person is a doormat! 

People agress him & he beatifically smiles. 
This is part of the spiritual mumbo jumbo. Realized people still have teeth & can bite!

if I saw someone being agressed & not reacting like a normal human being, I would be sure he is just mimicking some ideal of realization. 

Haha that's ok, no worries, rant away! I get what you are saying and yet I argue that there is also no need to not lose "you" (or "I" or whatever). Who cares? I most certainly does not. I get that some may have a false understanding of no-self and make the effort to avoid using a certain word to describe themselves thinking that they are going to fall into some trap of becoming self identified if they refer to themselves as "I" or whatever but that's also ok. Perhaps that leads them to becoming less self identified in the end. Actually I find it quite difficult and challenging in a fun way, thinking of ways to communicate without using "I" (or "me" or any other self referencing words) in conversation but not for the purpose of being less self identified. I do it because I likes to play like that. It's a koan. Thinking of fun and challenging ways to off put your peers for the purpose of helping each other grow and develop. Why not? I played a lot of squash some years ago. I made friends with a guy who was also very driven and over many years we played together, challenging each other. It was a beautiful dance an sometimes he would beat me, sometimes I would beat him. We would trash talk each other and try to put each other off and I enjoyed that part of our time together nearly as much as I enjoyed playing the actual game haha. We just never took things personally and it was always good but we also didn't say the most horrible things that we could think of to say, we were tactfully insulting each other.

https://youtu.be/D9wMLSyo43Y?si=xF5RDj4STdDQLOm9&t=3164

So that is this one's rant. There is the feeling of hope that these words are also helpful.

Over.

Hey there!

i am not after you personally. You can say that I jumped on the bandwagon to share my take on some Spiritual mumbo jumbo peddked by teacherswho rely on students donations or payments. There is a HUGE amount of misinformation about spirituality. It is true that it is difficult to talk about this stuff as most of it is pre-conceptual or ineffable.

But this doesn't mean anything goes. Realized being still have emotions & can get angry. The bliss of Realization is not about being on a cloud 24/7. Realized people are not extraordinary beings, they are like everybody else & carry most of their baggage from their earlier lives (nothing to do with reincarnation).

I have no teachers & I am not a teacher myself. I have nothing to sell. I have no claims. I am absolutely sure I didn't reach stream entry & I have no interest in maps in general. This said: I think spirituality is big business & has always been so & this is the case in all traditions. I think teachers can be helpful but are highly overrated. I think most of the teachers are just"the blind guiding the blind".

This thread grabbed my attention because it has some of the most widely shared misconceptions:
■ about no-self: no, one does not need get rid of the self. There has never been a self to get rid off to begin with.
■ about realization: stream entry is nothing if it needs confirmation from other people. One should be able to see for oneself. Moreover stream entry is not an end in itself. When a person is grabbed that person will have no choice but to continue.
■ about the importance of teachers & retreats (big business): for most people, most of the time nowadays the need for teachers is simply not there. For example,  this forum has more guidance than any teacher could give.
■ about maps: "nana" maps are just one way to describe the territory. It can be helpful for some people but by no means are they universal nor absolute nor necessary.
■ about what realized people should look like: no, they don't need to be or look special in any way. Sure, they have understood something about the nature of reality. Sure that can spill in other areas of their life. But they remain the mammals they never ceased to be