RE: Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Ablyss White, modified 1 Month ago at 10/23/24 12:33 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/23/24 12:33 PM

Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Posts: 4 Join Date: 9/11/23 Recent Posts
I over did my cannabis and psychedelic use now I have schizophrenia. Giving up on my pursuit to stream entry makes me depressed. I like having that spiritual goal along with my material goals. Should I give up?
All I hear is don't do vipassana you might get psychosis. What if I don't care? What if I can just sit, while I have psychosis. I think I am quite good at long determination sittings. Also I have passed A&P before my first psychotic episode.

Is stream entry possible while having schizophrenia? Anyone who has that - still practice?
thumbnail
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 10/23/24 4:43 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/23/24 4:43 PM

RE: Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Posts: 827 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Were you diagnosed schizophrenic? 

​​​​​​​Have you previously had psychotic episodes?
thumbnail
Jim Smith, modified 1 Month ago at 10/23/24 11:51 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/23/24 11:45 PM

RE: Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Posts: 1812 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Personally, I think stream entry is not a useful goal. There are different definitions of what it is and how to measure/identify it.

My suggestion is to take time to practice mindfulness, being in the present moment, by trying to be aware of what you are doing as you are doing it rather than being lost in thoughts about the past, future, or solving problems. Try to stay mindful in a relaxed way without making an intense effort.  You can practice during daily activities like doing the dishes or taking a walk. Some type of light meditation to help calm the mind is useful but you don't need any complicated type of practice beyond that.

It takes some time and practice to recognize that when you are mindful, when you are in the present moment, you are not creating problems for yourself with your mind. You will find nirvana in the present moment not in the future. The only thing that can make you suffer is your own mind. When you are in the present moment, your mind is not making you suffer. Seeing how that works teaches you how to stop making yourself suffer. At first we think suffering is involuntary, but later it may come to seem more like a habit that we do automatically but that we can give up if we try.

This doesn't mean you should suppress unpleasant emotions. It means you should handle them with clarity and equanimity. 

Clarity means you look into the cause of the emotions, there are often many layers of emotions hidden behind other emotions, hidden to protect ourselves from facts about ourselves we don't want to acknowledge. 

Equanimity in this case means you don't push away, judge, or reject emotions. (Our resistance to emotions is usually a greater source of suffering than the emotions themselves.) Allow yourself to be aware of emotions, to feel them. But also don't get carried away so they take over you mind. You want to observe them, how they feel, how they arise, but not let them contol you or your mind.
Ablyss White, modified 1 Month ago at 10/25/24 1:40 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/25/24 1:40 AM

RE: Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Posts: 4 Join Date: 9/11/23 Recent Posts
Yes, diagnozed. Two psychotic episodes, the 1st being full on paranoia and the second more maniac-ish.
thumbnail
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 10/25/24 1:56 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/25/24 1:56 AM

RE: Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Posts: 827 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Is there any possibility you might pose a danger to yourself or others if another episode was triggered by meditation? 
Truth Seeker, modified 1 Month ago at 10/26/24 12:58 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/26/24 12:58 PM

RE: Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Posts: 105 Join Date: 2/27/21 Recent Posts
Question for you before I answer the original question:

Ablyss White, do you have any sort of karmic boundaries you follow for intentions, speech, and bodily fabrications? Example: right intention, right speech, right action of noble eightfold path. Or the 1st limb in raja yoga. That sort of thing.
Ablyss White, modified 1 Month ago at 10/28/24 8:09 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/28/24 8:09 AM

RE: Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Posts: 4 Join Date: 9/11/23 Recent Posts
Bahiya Baby
Is there any possibility you might pose a danger to yourself or others if another episode was triggered by meditation? 
I do not think so, no. Coffee and my mom is a no no, everyone else, zero danger or negative thoughts.
Ablyss White, modified 1 Month ago at 10/28/24 8:18 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/28/24 8:18 AM

RE: Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Posts: 4 Join Date: 9/11/23 Recent Posts
I believe the combination of me passing A&P, adapting the "my frist thoughts is the best thought" thought pattern years before my first psychotic episode, and drugs lead me to lose morality and to think more carefully about how I talk or present myself. Also I am 25, so the last couple years were also strong character forming years. Psychosis changed me. I have more negative thought patterns and live in delusions, currently they don't really control me as much that it is disabling, but nonetheless they exist in the background (and show up sometimes). 

I have been meditating for 18+ days now everyday for an hour, and I think it helps. 

So the answer is no. I am raised Catholic and I've commited sins that I regretted because of psychosis (unfortunatly).
Since I've started meditating and time has passed, I am more mindful about what to say and do.
Truth Seeker, modified 1 Month ago at 10/30/24 1:21 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/30/24 1:20 PM

RE: Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Posts: 105 Join Date: 2/27/21 Recent Posts
Is stream entry possible while having schizophrenia? Personally, I believe it should be possible for any human being regardless of any perceived mental or physical handicap.

I partially agree with Jim here. Mindfulness is the direct path and will help. However, if you are a beginner, I recommend starting with immersing it in the bodily frame of reference first. Once that is well-established then I would recommend moving onto other frames like feelings. The immersing in the body is where I am at in my practice (no attainments personally, had to work through a ton of misconception on my journey). This is the sutta I have been using a lot lately that covers this: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html

As to morality, it might help to utilize a different term. Personally, that has helped me. Since I work within the buddhism framework, i use the terms skillful and unskillful amongst others.
Martin, modified 1 Month ago at 10/30/24 1:43 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/30/24 1:43 PM

RE: Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Posts: 1050 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
If someone asked me if it was possible to train for a long distance running race with a heart condition, I would reply that they should talk to their cardiologist and, if the cardiologist says it's safe, they should get a trainer who is experienced in training people with heart conditions. Similarly, you might want to discuss this with your psychiatrist and, if they think that it's an OK idea, start looking for a teacher (someone who has been formally trained as a teacher) and discuss it with them. 

One place to start looking for teachers is here: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/21564331

I generally believe that anything is possible but I also know that some things are genuinely risky. It's not uncommon for people to be psychologically injured by meditation. Those injuries can be really unpleasant and can require years-long difficult recoveries.

I'm using this analogy because I have a heart condition and I am working with a cardiologist and physiologist to safely run and maybe race. In other words, I'm all for trying difficult stuff. I also know how unpleasant it is to be injured. 

If you decide to keep working on a meditation practice, I would suggest that you start by talking to people, just as you have been doing here, and start only when you have the OK from good professionals who will be able to support you.
thumbnail
Daniel M Ingram, modified 29 Days ago at 11/3/24 4:31 AM
Created 29 Days ago at 11/3/24 4:31 AM

RE: Reaching Stream Entry while having schizophrenia

Posts: 3293 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
There was a guy named TripleThink here back in the day, remarkable guy, very deep practitioner, lots of realizations, powerful concentration, also mad as a hatter, paranoid, sometimes very aggressive and admittedly a bit scary on the forum, had been on all sorts of meds, inpatient a number of times.

I knew him not just on the forum, but also had talked with him a number of times, my conclusion is that he was both really awake and really nuts, and he agreed with this.

So, yes, crazy and awakening are definitely not mutually exclusive, though, yes, it is true that some sorts of meditation can exacerbate mental illness symptoms. 

Might check out Shift into Freedom, by Loch Kelly, as this is deep Dharma, and, I think, not as likely to cause difficulties.

Best wishes,

​​​​​​​Daniel

Breadcrumb