RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang daniel benes 10/25/24 5:51 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang terry 10/26/24 12:31 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang terry 10/26/24 12:40 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang Adi Vader 10/26/24 1:18 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang Adi Vader 10/26/24 1:19 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang terry 10/26/24 5:06 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang terry 10/26/24 5:32 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang T DC 10/27/24 1:19 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang Bahiya Baby 10/26/24 4:12 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang daniel benes 10/29/24 3:54 AM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang terry 10/26/24 5:21 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang Raphael Scullion 10/27/24 8:43 AM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang terry 10/27/24 5:06 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang daniel benes 10/29/24 4:07 AM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang Chris M 10/27/24 7:18 AM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang daniel benes 10/29/24 4:36 AM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang terry 10/27/24 5:14 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang pixelcloud * 10/28/24 5:51 AM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang Bahiya Baby 10/28/24 7:09 AM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang T DC 10/28/24 8:20 AM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang B B 10/28/24 1:04 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang terry 10/28/24 1:55 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang Chris M 10/28/24 3:06 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang B B 10/29/24 7:42 AM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang T DC 10/29/24 10:00 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang B B 10/30/24 10:20 AM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang pixelcloud * 10/29/24 2:20 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang B B 10/29/24 2:54 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang Chris M 10/30/24 8:15 AM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang Martin 10/29/24 2:59 PM
RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang Bahiya Baby 10/29/24 5:12 PM
daniel benes, modified 14 Days ago at 10/25/24 5:51 PM
Created 14 Days ago at 10/25/24 5:51 PM

A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 4 Join Date: 10/25/24 Recent Posts
Hello!
I traveled to Barcelona to visit Frank Yang and to film a mini documentary about how enlightenment can manifest in day to day life. Here is the link! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rScUoK2u_oE&t=1s 
I hope you will enjoy :-)) 

​​​​​​​Daniel
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terry, modified 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 12:31 PM
Created 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 12:31 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 2747 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
daniel benes
Hello!
I traveled to Barcelona to visit Frank Yang and to film a mini documentary about how enlightenment can manifest in day to day life. Here is the link! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rScUoK2u_oE&t=1s 
I hope you will enjoy :-)) 

​​​​​​​Daniel


I watched the video. Seems a shame to criticize young people having fun. Watching tourists consume bigly is not as bad as watching soldiers commit genocide. All the self conscious recording and pretty posing creates some dissonance. One imagines this young man doing something entirely different in six months or a year. Enlightenment as fast fashion.
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terry, modified 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 12:40 PM
Created 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 12:40 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 2747 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
"My enlightenment superpower is that I chop wood and haul water."
​​​​​​​~layman p'ang
Adi Vader, modified 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 1:18 PM
Created 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 1:18 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
"My enlightenment super power is that I write a thread titled 'mapping mappo' "
- the extremely humble Terry

"My enlightenment super power is that I tease Terry"
​​​​​​​- the not so humble Arhat Adi Vader
Adi Vader, modified 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 1:19 PM
Created 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 1:19 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

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Lol ... just joking. Relax.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 4:12 PM
Created 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 3:36 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 743 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
One critique I have is that I went into this knowing very little about Frank Yang, other than he claims to be awakened -not that I feel any need to dispute that- and I didn't really learn anything more. 

It doesn't feel like a documentary it feels a lot more like an influencer promo video. While documentaries often promote their subjects they tend to have a more investigative bent. The appeal of a documentary is in the curiosity, in the finding out. There's a journey to it. 

The Instagram promo genre tends to be a bit more "hey we're already here, look how nice it is"
I'm definitely not the target audience. I'm 31, well travelled, had a lot of fun, done a lot dope shit. The Instagram "look at how nice this is" aesthetic doesn't really do anything for me but I respect it's fun to have fun and that this might appeal to certain other demographics. 

​​​​​​​So yeah, didn't really get a feel for the guy unfortunately. Spent ten minutes watching a video about him, saying things a lot of us here have heard a million times... Where's the grit? Where's the meat? Come on brother give me a little soul !! 

If I give you ten minutes of my time you ought to fuck my brains out. 

​​


​​​​​​​... I am actually curious to know more about Frank. Seems like a creative dude. Anybody out there have much familiarity?
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terry, modified 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 5:06 PM
Created 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 5:06 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 2747 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Adi Vader
"My enlightenment super power is that I write a thread titled 'mapping mappo' "
- the extremely humble Terry

"My enlightenment super power is that I tease Terry"
​​​​​​​- the not so humble Arhat Adi Vader



if you really want to tease me
try do it in blank verse
and eschew
initial capitals

lolo
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terry, modified 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 5:21 PM
Created 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 5:21 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 2747 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
one of the problems of the digital age:

enlightenment is spontaneous and free
it cannot be recorded
​​​​​​​

you have to be there


"The revolution will not be televised."
~gil scott-heron
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terry, modified 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 5:32 PM
Created 13 Days ago at 10/26/24 5:32 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 2747 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry
Adi Vader
"My enlightenment super power is that I write a thread titled 'mapping mappo' "
- the extremely humble Terry

"My enlightenment super power is that I tease Terry"
​​​​​​​- the not so humble Arhat Adi Vader



if you really want to tease me
try do it in blank verse
and eschew
initial capitals

lolo


and no forget a quote, some short pithy wood or lengthy jabberwock

(I'm tempted to mock myself, just for fun, and such an easy target)
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Raphael Scullion, modified 12 Days ago at 10/27/24 8:43 AM
Created 13 Days ago at 10/27/24 4:27 AM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

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Thank you, Daniel, for posting this! It's clearly a work of love and I appreciate the work and the courage behind it. For me, it also served as a great reminder, that Buddha Nature rests comfortably in all aspects of existence.

Something I'd like to point out really struck me - and since we're only given a 10 minute glance it may just be due to an unfortunate choice if editing.But the way this video portrays the dynamics between Frank and his significant other, there is a lot of dharma talking being done in one direction. There are a few instances were she keeps in vain trying to get a word in, but even when she does, her input is just being talked over before she can articulate her point. At least in these scenes of the documentary, this feels like her part in the dynamic is being reduced to a prop. Not a whole lot of listening can be seen, except as an aesthetic gesture.

Again, might be unfortunate editing. Might be the uncharitable eye of the beholder. But since this is not a completely unknown behaviour pattern for awakened male minds towards their female follower-girlfriends, it did raise an eye-brow of at least this beholder.
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Chris M, modified 13 Days ago at 10/27/24 7:18 AM
Created 13 Days ago at 10/27/24 7:18 AM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 5439 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
As I watched this video, I found myself asking: Am I watching an influencer play an enlightened person? Why is everything funny? The amount of ego on display is disconcerting, given the dialog. It's just a ten-minute snippet of real-life. Does the editing suck?
T DC, modified 12 Days ago at 10/27/24 1:19 PM
Created 12 Days ago at 10/27/24 1:19 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 531 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
terry
"My enlightenment superpower is that I chop wood and haul water."
​​​​​​​~layman p'ang

"Chop wood, carry water" now "make crazed youtube videos, buy matching outfits" lol
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terry, modified 12 Days ago at 10/27/24 5:06 PM
Created 12 Days ago at 10/27/24 5:06 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 2747 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Raphael Scullion
Thank you, Daniel, for posting this! It's clearly a work of love and I appreciate the work and the courage behind it. For me, it also served as a great reminder, that Buddha Nature rests comfortably in all aspects of existence.

Something I'd like to point out really struck me - and since we're only given a 10 minute glance it may just be due to an unfortunate choice if editing.But the way this video portrays the dynamics between Frank and his significant other, there is a lot of dharma talking being done in one direction. There are a few instances were she keeps in vain trying to get a word in, but even when she does, her input is just being talked over before she can articulate her point. At least in these scenes of the documentary, this feels like her part in the dynamic is being reduced to a prop. Not a whole lot of listening can be seen, except as an aesthetic gesture.

Again, might be unfortunate editing. Might be the uncharitable eye of the beholder. But since this is not a completely unknown behaviour pattern for awakened male minds towards their female follower-girlfriends, it did raise an eye-brow of at least this beholder.


gf just another fast fashion accessory, known for a short time and then no doubt discarded with yesterday's garments...

like the robe of enlightenment...

good fun, eh?


it's only called enlightenment
like calling yourself arhat
(wink)
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terry, modified 12 Days ago at 10/27/24 5:14 PM
Created 12 Days ago at 10/27/24 5:14 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 2747 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
poor db is probably appalled about now at the way we have treated his baby

(try tik tok)


I wonder if we'll ever get a post number 2 from him
pixelcloud *, modified 12 Days ago at 10/28/24 5:51 AM
Created 12 Days ago at 10/28/24 5:51 AM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

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Ah, the brah-rhat Frank Yang. For those not familiar with him, he's been interviewed on the Guru Viking podcast and has been part of long discussions with people like Michael Taft, Daniel Ingram and Andres Gomez-Emilsson (all on youtube, for those interested, as are his own videos wich he has been posting for several years now). From his descriptons of the sequence of phenomenological changes he went through, it does sound like the technical definition of 4th path that is ususally referred to in these pragmatic circles, where the mind has stopped to produce a centerpoint, controller, doer, etc. He's been very open about the works of Shinzen Young, Michael Taft and Daniel Ingram having been instrumental for him to tweak the Goenka retreats he went on to get actual attainments out of them.
What I think is interesting here is that this seems to again show what many, many teachers in many traditions have said for a long, long time: The sense of self going away for ever will not result in a perfected personality, the Theravada ten fetter model just doesn't work out in practice. I think he would be the first to admit that freely. And I think many people will understandably be put off by his lack of development of linguistic skills and his general kinda carefree, joyous, low brow attitude, if I may call it that.
Like, woah, brah.
I mostly can't make it through his own videos myself, as so much more detailed and better worded and logically more sound and less woo-woo material is freely available, and I scratch my head at him being a teacher, but then again, whatever works, he is transmitting the idea of and resources about awakening as a technical attainment that is actually doable into areas of the social sphere where people like the teachers mentioned above will not likely get much airplay otherwise. A flavor of dharma that heartily recommends MCTB2 is something I can get on board with way more than the mindfulness divested of awakening that has grown in the dark of the mushroom culture or some new iteration of sutta-headedness with rat-catcher rhetorics like TWIM.  

A very quirky twist of scenario universe, that Frank Yang-ness it is doing there. I like the sound of ruffled feathers it produces, both in myself and others.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 12 Days ago at 10/28/24 7:09 AM
Created 12 Days ago at 10/28/24 7:09 AM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

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Nice. Thank you pixiecloud and also welcome. 
T DC, modified 11 Days ago at 10/28/24 8:20 AM
Created 11 Days ago at 10/28/24 8:00 AM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 531 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
@pixelcloud: Well said, you have brought balance to the force this thread.  Also great first (?) post.  
B B, modified 11 Days ago at 10/28/24 1:04 PM
Created 11 Days ago at 10/28/24 1:04 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 50 Join Date: 9/3/16 Recent Posts
Ayy lmao, what a cool guy, so extroverted

Meanwhile my teacher who was confirmed to have reached the 4th Dzogchen vision by the head of Nyingma and authorized to teach Mahamudra by the top Drikung Kagyu lamas has all the free time in the world to teach but no-one is interested. What a topsy-turvy world.
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terry, modified 11 Days ago at 10/28/24 1:55 PM
Created 11 Days ago at 10/28/24 1:55 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 2747 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
B B
Ayy lmao, what a cool guy, so extroverted

Meanwhile my teacher who was confirmed to have reached the 4th Dzogchen vision by the head of Nyingma and authorized to teach Mahamudra by the top Drikung Kagyu lamas has all the free time in the world to teach but no-one is interested. What a topsy-turvy world.


  I'm wrestling with pixie's concept of "awakening as a technical attainment that is actually doable."

Is this really what people think is going on? The teachers he lists are attempting to promote this "technical attainment?" And retailing the notion this is doable?

Authorized by the top and confirmed by the head. Once you get your COA you have arrived.

And can teach the turves on top.


What can be taught is not enlightenment, it is discipline.


I have apprentices. Beauty does excellent work, she has become a talented and successful artist. I taught her the craft, but the art and talent came from within. Many excellent crafters are self taught. People pass by the booth and tell me she is lucky to have a teacher, and I reply that good apprentices are harder to come by than good teachers. I have taught a dozen for every apprentice that actually mastered the craft.

Mastery is earned, not taught. It takes more than a few chords to play the blues.
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Chris M, modified 11 Days ago at 10/28/24 3:06 PM
Created 11 Days ago at 10/28/24 3:06 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 5439 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
On that note:

​​​​​​​Anyone can read and practice instructions on how to follow the path, but the instructions aren't the goal. They can lead to something beyond process. One has to be open to serendipity, to curiosity, and to wonder. 
daniel benes, modified 11 Days ago at 10/29/24 3:54 AM
Created 11 Days ago at 10/29/24 3:54 AM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 4 Join Date: 10/25/24 Recent Posts
Bahiya Baby
One critique I have is that I went into this knowing very little about Frank Yang, other than he claims to be awakened -not that I feel any need to dispute that- and I didn't really learn anything more. 

It doesn't feel like a documentary it feels a lot more like an influencer promo video. While documentaries often promote their subjects they tend to have a more investigative bent. The appeal of a documentary is in the curiosity, in the finding out. There's a journey to it. 

The Instagram promo genre tends to be a bit more "hey we're already here, look how nice it is"
I'm definitely not the target audience. I'm 31, well travelled, had a lot of fun, done a lot dope shit. The Instagram "look at how nice this is" aesthetic doesn't really do anything for me but I respect it's fun to have fun and that this might appeal to certain other demographics. 

​​​​​​​So yeah, didn't really get a feel for the guy unfortunately. Spent ten minutes watching a video about him, saying things a lot of us here have heard a million times... Where's the grit? Where's the meat? Come on brother give me a little soul !! 

If I give you ten minutes of my time you ought to fuck my brains out. 

​​


​​​​​​​... I am actually curious to know more about Frank. Seems like a creative dude. Anybody out there have much familiarity?


Hello. First of all thank your for taking the time to watch the whole video and giving me some constructive criticism! :-)) 
About the documentary/promo video style, the original idea was a little bit different but we had so little time and were always on the go so i went with a little bit more just observing and recording what's going on without any plan from me or Frank. So in the end I just recorded my experience of the day with them and wanted to bring that experience to people. 

If you are curious to know more I think these videos are a good start. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6kfcYBrKMc&t=958s - conversation between Frank, Daniel Ingram, Evan McMullen and Michael Taft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m570zTxCpso&t=3831s - Q&A after Michael Tafts guided meditation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQf3KyW23d0&t=405s - One of Franks videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t8KvdMtT4A&t=95s - One of his most watched videos
daniel benes, modified 11 Days ago at 10/29/24 4:07 AM
Created 11 Days ago at 10/29/24 4:07 AM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 4 Join Date: 10/25/24 Recent Posts
Raphael Scullion
Thank you, Daniel, for posting this! It's clearly a work of love and I appreciate the work and the courage behind it. For me, it also served as a great reminder, that Buddha Nature rests comfortably in all aspects of existence.

Something I'd like to point out really struck me - and since we're only given a 10 minute glance it may just be due to an unfortunate choice if editing.But the way this video portrays the dynamics between Frank and his significant other, there is a lot of dharma talking being done in one direction. There are a few instances were she keeps in vain trying to get a word in, but even when she does, her input is just being talked over before she can articulate her point. At least in these scenes of the documentary, this feels like her part in the dynamic is being reduced to a prop. Not a whole lot of listening can be seen, except as an aesthetic gesture.

Again, might be unfortunate editing. Might be the uncharitable eye of the beholder. But since this is not a completely unknown behaviour pattern for awakened male minds towards their female follower-girlfriends, it did raise an eye-brow of at least this beholder.
Hey! Glad you like it! 

Yeah that one is on me. Frank was the kindest to Nicky (and to me and everyone else too). Unfortunately the part of the editing process is to cut something out. If you are interested you can find more of her talking in his version of the days spent in Barcelona on his channel. :-))
daniel benes, modified 11 Days ago at 10/29/24 4:36 AM
Created 11 Days ago at 10/29/24 4:29 AM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 4 Join Date: 10/25/24 Recent Posts
Chris M
As I watched this video, I found myself asking: Am I watching an influencer play an enlightened person? Why is everything funny? The amount of ego on display is disconcerting, given the dialog. It's just a ten-minute snippet of real-life. Does the editing suck?
Hello Chris. Those are interesting questions. Context is important. Frank has a degree in filmmaking and was posting videos on youtube since it beginnings i think. Mainly fitness content and you could say 'crazy performance art videos'. I didnt know anyone like him even before he got into meditation. Filmaking is essential part of his life. So i would not say he is an influencer but for people who dont know him and his past some things can seem out of place. But he is the most authentic person i have ever met.

Why is everything funny? ...why wouldnt be. We had a great time and lot of fun. simple as that.

Art is subjective. editing can suck :-))
B B, modified 11 Days ago at 10/29/24 7:42 AM
Created 11 Days ago at 10/29/24 7:34 AM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 50 Join Date: 9/3/16 Recent Posts
  I'm wrestling with pixie's concept of "awakening as a technical attainment that is actually doable."

Is this really what people think is going on? The teachers he lists are attempting to promote this "technical attainment?" And retailing the notion this is doable?

Authorized by the top and confirmed by the head. Once you get your COA you have arrived.

And can teach the turves on top.


What can be taught is not enlightenment, it is discipline.


I have apprentices. Beauty does excellent work, she has become a talented and successful artist. I taught her the craft, but the art and talent came from within. Many excellent crafters are self taught. People pass by the booth and tell me she is lucky to have a teacher, and I reply that good apprentices are harder to come by than good teachers. I have taught a dozen for every apprentice that actually mastered the craft.

Mastery is earned, not taught. It takes more than a few chords to play the blues.

The historical Buddha's message was that awakening was basically doable too, right. "Doable" as in achievable in some clear cut sense. Of course he also taught that one must abandon the raft once one reaches the far shore. So there has always been an acknowledgment that the spoken dharma was a provisional form of skillful means.

As you are probably aware, there is a lot of nuance added in later Mahayana and Vajrayana texts around the spontaneously present nature of awakening. Through practice, one abandons the notion of awakening as something achievable in any concrete manner, and cultivates a realization of awakening as already fully present. There is a paradoxical quality to Vajrayana and Dzogchen due to this apparent need to practice to remove obscurations which ultimately don't exist.

Vajrayana has methods that come extremely close to "teaching" enlightenment directly. For example there is a series of introductions where the student contemplates various symbolic forms, such as light diffracted through crystal, and this is considered a complete path to Buddhahood. There are many stories of pointing out instructions basically triggering a student's enlightenment. But you're right in that the teacher can only point to the moon, not make the student look. Even if a form of discipline is taught, some initiative is required of the student to maintain the discipline. 

There is a paradoxical quality to this too, because one settles into enlightenment effortlessly. So one needs discipline only insofar as one has doubt about one's Buddha nature. The discipline itself may become a hindrance if it reinforces the illusion of making concrete progress along a path. One can easily get lost in myopic pursuit of perfect discipline, or some kind of incomplete path that only leads to rebirth in a higher realm. Actually there can be a certain advantage to laziness insofar as it motivates one to seek out the optimal path to awakening, which IMO is the meta path of going beyond the assumptions underlying paths. So as always there is a middle way between extremes that one must find.

Btw he could very well be the right teacher for many people. I don't mean to completely write him off. But what is his lineage? My teacher has an authentic lineage, the importance of which he often emphasizes. He has told me many stories of the power of the lineage masters (living masters whom he has met). Many lineages are broken, and many who arrogate to themselves the position of dharma teacher don't have any connection with a lineage. This may be a key factor in determining the results of one's practice, yet often goes unappreciated on this forum.

I'm not sure if this was intended, but one might interpret your remarks as dismissive of authorization from lineage masters. I believe, if anything, this is under-emphasized on this forum. It would be foolish indeed to try to figure it all out by oneself, or with some tenuous connection to authentic dharma teachers. Yet a lot of the prominent figures in the Pragmatic Dharma community are apparently of this sort. Rarer still is connection with an unbroken practice lineage, such as the Drikung Kagyu lineage, where awakening was transmitted from teacher to student in an unbroken line going back at least as far as Tilopa in the 10th century. The Burmese practice lineage, from which Daniel Ingram and others picked up the Mahasi noting technique, was apparently revived in the late 18th century. The quality of transmission from truly immersing oneself in an authentic lineage and course of practice is of a totally different order than if one is picking up teachings here and there from various books and Youtube videos.
pixelcloud *, modified 10 Days ago at 10/29/24 2:20 PM
Created 10 Days ago at 10/29/24 1:47 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 6 Join Date: 10/25/24 Recent Posts
I like Terry Belle's last post. I think it is quite the statement in a forum that was founded for written exchange about what works (as in pragmatic) in the world of meditation (as in dharma). 

On that note, I initially thought to refer to the "Welcome to the Dharmaoverground" text (top left, click on HOME), but I think the short chapter "It's possible!" from MCTB2 is just perfect for this joyous occasion:


"So why am I mentioning all these states and stages that are thought by many to be largely mythical and unattainable? Because they are absolutely otherwise, that's why. People do attain these states today, though they tend only to talk about them with their teachers and close friends who have enough experience in this stuff to understand and not have odd reactions to these disclosures. I assure you that I wouldn't have bothered writing all of this if I didn't think that it was possible for those reading this book to master these trainings.

As an example of a very different way of relating to attainments, Kenneth Folk was on a retreat in Burma and had attained second path as confirmed by Sayadaw U Pandita. He was finally done with his retreat and was taken to the airport by one of the lay people who helped run the monastery, who, incidentally, was known to be a stream enterer. As Kenneth was leaving, the layman yelled to him across the terminal, “Come back for number three!” meaning, “Come back and attain third path!” Note the many ways in which what underlies this statement differs from the paradigm you would likely find in a Western Buddhist context.

First, most Western Buddhists don't really believe that after a few months of good practice you could awaken or awaken more. They do not believe it is simply a matter of following simple instructions, moving through the clearly defined insights, and tagging a path. In fact, I often tell this story to Western Buddhists, many of whom have been on numerous insight retreats led by teachers trained by the best Burmese masters, and they say things like, “What do you mean, ‘third path’?” It makes me want to explode in a great, world-shaking blast of magickal vajra wisdom when they don't even know the basic structure of the path to awakening, much less anything practical about it. Most Western teachers wouldn't have the guts to stand up and say, “Yeah, he did it, he got second path!” (assuming they were even able to evaluate such a person's practice). If they could even identify the attainment, it would still likely be a huge, taboo secret.

The stream enterer who drove Kenneth to the airport also showed no jealousy on his part, but instead pure enthusiasm and encouragement for those above him to continue onward on the precious and efficacious dharma path. This is also radically different from the relationship many westerners have with those who have successfully practiced the teachings of the Buddha. The driver had faith in his tradition borne of his own practice. In short: it has been done, it is being done, it will continue to be done, and there are good, wise people who would love to help you do it!

Later, I am going to go into details about a practice called mudita, or joyful appreciation, and it is the practice of rejoicing in the successes and good fortune of others. It is one of the four brahma viharas, or “divine abidings”, and is a fundamental practice taught by the Buddha. The lack of mudita has ruined many spiritual practitioners and communities, since where there is no mudita, there is jealousy, comparison, toxic forms of competition, and disparagement or discrediting of those who attain the expected benefits of practice. Delight in the efficacy of the dharma and in those who master it! Delight that beings awaken! Delight in the opportunity to have wise, accomplished companions on the spiritual path! Recognize jealousy and insecurity immediately when they arise and practice appreciation and the gratitude we should feel that we get to have wise dharma companions.

Practice, practice, practice! This is the big difference between those who are merely giving lip service to Buddhadharma and those who really get what the old boy was talking about. Go on retreats with sane teachers and follow the instructions to the letter all day long. Find people who know how it is done and hang out with them. Keep it simple. Avoid magical thinking (except when doing magick, more on that later) and don't lose your common sense.

The simple fact that you have read this book means that the ball is now in your court. There is more than enough information presented here and in the other texts that I mention on straightforward techniques that have a great track record of delivering as advertised. As a wise chef in a gourmet restaurant where I used to cook said to me, “I have two words for you: perseverance furthers.”"


To repeat:

"(...) most Western Buddhists don't really believe that after a few months of good practice you could awaken or awaken more. They do not believe it is simply a matter of following simple instructions, moving through the clearly defined insights, and tagging a path."

"The lack of mudita has ruined many spiritual practitioners and communities, since where there is no mudita, there is jealousy, comparison, toxic forms of competition, and disparagement or discrediting of those who attain the expected benefits of practice. Delight in the efficacy of the dharma and in those who master it! Delight that beings awaken! Delight in the opportunity to have wise, accomplished companions on the spiritual path! Recognize jealousy and insecurity immediately when they arise and practice appreciation and the gratitude we should feel that we get to have wise dharma companions."


So, yay, Frank Yang. You don't fit many of my ideals, but who cares? It's delightful that beings awaken. You put in the hours and seem to have tagged paths. Awesome, man. Yay, dharma!

As for lineage, a lot has been written about it. If it works, it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't. There is a majesty and much utility to a long, unbroken line of tradition, no doubt. But, in a way, that, too is a skillful means, nothing more. An attempt to preserve teachings and minimize accidents on the path, to optimize outcome. If that leads to good practice AND gives you a warm feeling of being on the right team, two thumbs up. 

The Buddha also said to be a light unto yourself, however. 

Kornfield got the go ahead by Mahasi to teach, as far as I know. Yet Kornfield holds that the stages of insight only happen on intensive retreat. If that is not a political statement, but an honest observation after decades of practice and teaching, then that means that not only have the stages never happened off retreat for Kornfield but also for not ONE of his students. In 40 years. Wich, in my world, makes him a pretty epic failure as a teacher of awakening, regardless of how much useful stuff he has written and may have done otherwise. So much for lineage as a garantee of qualitee. 

Same with self learners. That can work or go horribly wrong. 

"Nanny nodded. Actually, they were quite right. You COULD teach yourself witchcraft. But both the teacher and the pupil had to be the right kind of person." as Pratchett wrote. 

The three characteristics are pretty universal, last time I checked, and although I too have aesthetic preferences, the notion that one teaching/learning configuration is superior to the other in some absolute sense is a problematic one. I prefer the pragmatic lense. Also seems a little bit more buddhist-y to not asign unchanging nature of inherent superiority to lineage as an abstract ideal... 

One last thing: All Buddhist awakening methodology is, pretty much by definition, I think, progressive non-duality. You start out you, you end up obviously never having been anything of the sort. In Burma, Tibet and Japan. So the paradoxes that B B spoke of are baked into all of practice that aims at awakening and resolve themselves in one way or the other - depending on wether you're in Burma, Tibet or Japan. I think it's pretty weird that Theravada get's excluded from that club most of the time. 

​​​​​​​And returning to Frank Yang, I like this video the best:
The Ontological Dinner Party w/ Daniel Ingram, Andrés Gómez Emilsson, Frank Yang, & Ryan Ferris
B B, modified 10 Days ago at 10/29/24 2:54 PM
Created 10 Days ago at 10/29/24 2:46 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 50 Join Date: 9/3/16 Recent Posts
Lineage actually protects against mushroom culture (in the broad sense of important knowledge about a teacher's level of attainment not being available or discernible to students). WIth a disregard for that, there is a proliferation of voices all claiming awakening, but no reliable measure of depth of realization. The lowest common denominator prevails. Suddenly it's more important to have video editing skills than it is to have the highest realization. Authentic dharma quickly degenerates and is lost.
Martin, modified 10 Days ago at 10/29/24 2:59 PM
Created 10 Days ago at 10/29/24 2:59 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

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It's interesting that this has turned into a What is Enlightenment thread, but I don't see one mention of suffering. That's fine but interesting because there are lots of mentions of pragmatism and dharma pragmatists are usually all about the suffering. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 10 Days ago at 10/29/24 5:12 PM
Created 10 Days ago at 10/29/24 5:12 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 743 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Yeah 100 Martin.

This is what I meant by:

"Where's the grit? Where's the meat? Come on brother give me a little soul !!"

​​​​​​​For example what's so compelling about someone like Daniel Ingram is the radical openness and honesty about suffering and the difficulty of awakening. The absence of that kind of candor is always a red flag for me. 
T DC, modified 10 Days ago at 10/29/24 10:00 PM
Created 10 Days ago at 10/29/24 9:58 PM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

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B B Meanwhile my teacher who was confirmed to have reached the 4th Dzogchen vision by the head of Nyingma and authorized to teach Mahamudra by the top Drikung Kagyu lamas has all the free time in the world to teach but no-one is interested. What a topsy-turvy world.


Genuinely curious, who is your teacher?  Sounds quite illustrious.  I would have just asked via pm but I'm not sure that exists on here anymore.
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Chris M, modified 9 Days ago at 10/30/24 8:15 AM
Created 9 Days ago at 10/30/24 8:05 AM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 5439 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
A bit more on the importance of lineage, from my perspective:

As for lineage, a lot has been written about it. If it works, it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't. There is a majesty and much utility to a long, unbroken line of tradition, no doubt. But, in a way, that, too is a skillful means, nothing more. An attempt to preserve teachings and minimize accidents on the path, to optimize outcome. If that leads to good practice AND gives you a warm feeling of being on the right team, two thumbs up. 

I like this description of the value of lineage. I went about the path on my own for years, then found this community and Kenneth Folk, who is my only teacher. My "lineage" is found in whatever you'd call that. Would I have progressed without Kenneth? I have no idea! But he gave me tons of information from personal experience, kept me honest, and helped me contextualize my own experience. Is that what lineage does? I think so. He did, for me, preserve teachings, minimize accidents, and optimize outcomes.

How did I know Kenneth was the right teacher? Was he truly as he described himself? Well, I could read his comments here and evaluate them from the head and the heart. I could interact with Kenneth on DhO and in our email exchanges. I could read, and feel, the receipts from his practice. There was, in my mind, no need for generational approval.
B B, modified 9 Days ago at 10/30/24 10:20 AM
Created 9 Days ago at 10/30/24 10:20 AM

RE: A day in the life in the natural state / Frank Yang

Posts: 50 Join Date: 9/3/16 Recent Posts
T DC
B B Meanwhile my teacher who was confirmed to have reached the 4th Dzogchen vision by the head of Nyingma and authorized to teach Mahamudra by the top Drikung Kagyu lamas has all the free time in the world to teach but no-one is interested. What a topsy-turvy world.


Genuinely curious, who is your teacher?  Sounds quite illustrious.  I would have just asked via pm but I'm not sure that exists on here anymore.
I will share for the sake of those with a genuine desire to learn. Here is his website - in Portuguese, so you might need Google Translate. He had pages in English but took them down; unfortunately there have been some (unjustified and unsubstantiated) negative reactions from English-speaking people online. He was an active poster on DharmaWheel for years, and unafraid to express unpopular views. But he has been trained thoroughly by the top Drikung lamas. His primary teacher was Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche, a highly respected lama, with whom he had a close personal relationship for years (they lived nearby in San Francisco).

I've known him for almost 8 years now, and I'm confident I know him very well now on a personal level, as he's been extremely candid with me. We've been in regular contact, usually via email or WhatsApp, but we've also spent a few weeks together in person. I really believe he has tremendous capacity as a dharma teacher. He has not only been vetted by some of the best Tibetan lamas, he has a great capacity to express dharma teachings, a huge wealth of experiential knowledge, and he currently has free time to take on more students.

Of course, one should bear in mind the sage advice of Daniel in MCTB, even (or especially) with someone who has a dazzling dharma CV. Essentially, he is still human, and possessing his share of vices and traumas. Nevertheless his level of practice is extraordinary, perhaps as close as anyone in the western hemisphere to the famous mahasiddhas like Milarepa. His dream yoga practice, which he sometimes recounts, is particularly amazing. The ability to remain in a state of recognition while dreaming is typically seen as the final frontier of one's practice before Buddhahood.

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