Starting log #4.

Link of last message in log #3:
RE: Barros's Pratice Log #3 - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org

DAY 2024-10-01

I meditated for an hour. I started with the phase of control and ease. Comparing how, in the beginning, it’s easy. How, at the start, everything is broad. How, in the beginning... it’s easy to follow the instructions and guidelines of what should be done, how the practice should be conducted. It feels like everything is under control. Then, the phase of dullness comes. Out of nowhere, it appears. After some time, it shows up. And then, there is darkness, a short memory. I can’t keep the instruction under control. Sometimes, if I’m just noting, just experiencing, I want to insert the instruction to accept and experience. But then, an image comes, a lucid dream, a small daydream, and I lose control. Afterward, the awareness returns, but that’s how the dullness phase is. Deep down, I keep wanting to note, feeling like I need to note. Dusko talks a lot about this: "you have to note, you have to note." But this phase of dullness is very difficult. I have no control, and sometimes I forget the instruction, and then I’m in a daydream, in a lucid dream. Well, then I regain awareness, I start noting again, I try to anchor myself in the body sensations. I put effort into trying to note, but after a while, I lose it again. And so it goes; I managed to continue like that as much as possible.

Hello Andre.
If you are interested in reading about this from a few different perspectives, then this post and replies to it are very informative.
​​​​​​​https://www.reddit.com/r/midlmeditation/comments/13qc2cg/please_help_with_strong_dullness/

Hi Adi.

From what I read, the idea is very similar to what Dusko has been telling me. For example, opening my eyes and noting out loud. I've done that already (a few times) and I'm thinking of trying it again. I still intend to keep trying the way I've been doing it for a while longer. But if it gets too stagnant (for about 3 months), then I'll really go back to trying Dusko's method.

​​​​​​​Thanks for the tip!

DAY 2024-10-02 I meditated for an hour. I started with the intention of putting more energy, more effort, trying to balance relaxation. I have the hypothesis that I am still relaxing more than putting in effort. Effort in the sense of trying to make notes, observe, and show more interest. Today, I used my upright posture as a base. My intention was not to let it relax. Everything else could relax, except my posture. So, I focused a lot on the upright position of my spine. I observed the sensations in my body and stayed aware of my spine. It was always there, keeping me vigilant about my posture and energy. This didn’t change the situation in terms of going through the dullness phase. I could see my mind becoming dark, my memory shorter, but I still had the instructions present, I didn’t forget them, which I think is the most important. Sometimes, in the dullness, I forget and lose consciousness, but today my awareness was very strong, always remembering, coming back, vigilant of my upright posture. I noticed images, but they didn’t turn into dreams. There was some tension, but I just let it go. I accepted it, keeping the intention of seeing how this new balance of effort and relaxation would perform. I thought it was a good experience; I maintained my awareness and energy. The dullness was present, but shallower, weaker. I plan to do this for at least a week and see the results.

There was a mistake here, and I corrected it. The correct version is:​​​​​​​
"I noticed images, but they didn’t turn into dreams."

I think I understand now what you mean by "became dreams". Its what I call a "realm/trance" when certain experiences cause entrance into a realm of sorts. Lets say there is a sound contacting my hearing and then there is a cognizing that "its my family making the noise" accompanied by a mind image of my kids playing on the floor in the other room. Now from this the attention can get sucked into a realm of sorts, a dream of sorts, it can develop into a storytelling that is maintained in a realm of sorts which can go into any direction or realms etc etc ... Basically such dream/realm is a trance state as the mind fixates so strongly into this one realm (at any given time) and excludes all else which might also be taking place at this time, but ignorance is overpowering wisdom (and both these arise on their own and are not part of our volition anyway so do not beat yourself about it)

Awakening is many small steps of realizing "oh I was utterly sucked into a dream/realm/trance, how lovely that I could actually see this and pull out into the all-encompassing awareness". The more we do this on the cushion, the more chance the wisdom will start overpowering ignorance with time and practice. The Rome was not built in one day  

Your practice is going well! Best wishes and straight ahead! 

Yes, Dusko. It’s similar to that. A kind of trance/dream. I come out of it and see that I was trying to fix something there (in that illusion). There is subtle dukkha there.

Thank you very much, my friend!

My teacher Kenneth Folk was telling me how the Realm/Dream is not an issue really, and with practice one can get to the point of basically deciding if one wants to commit to any particular realm or not. If yes, then I go "into it" and know it all, with all its "realness" and "passion" connected to it. If not then I decide not to commit to it and fall back into the Bardo of Awareness and see what else comes up (and come up it will as that is what Mind does), and on and on.

At some stage post-SE one can start toying more with these "Realm visitations" and explore them. Or investigate if these "Realms" even existed? If so then what makes me say that they have been real, etc ... Lots of fun! Or not  

However this is all farfetching and best is to keep it simple; one note per matter or fact experience, simple, itch, unpleasant, image, aversion, image, aversion, itch, ... 

I don't have to awaken to all this. Only the Mind has to awaken to all this. And the Mind is not I, me or mine.

Nice Dusko!

For now, I want to focus for a week on posture and on setting the notation slightly above my comfort zone. This will increase my energy and tension. In other words, I'm adjusting the effort vs. relaxation factor. I want to see if it will help.

DAY 2024-10-03

I meditated for an hour. I started with the intention of keeping my spine straight, increasing the speed of my notation to a level above my comfort zone, and experiencing whatever needed to be experienced, noting when the desire to change something arose. Today, I wasn't as excited or enthusiastic to meditate. My interest was lukewarm, kind of neutral. I kept noticing this, trying to put in energy and increase my effort in notation. Gradually, it improved, but I didn't have that phase of easy and very interested notation. It was lukewarm.
Then came the phase of numbness. I focused more on the straight spine and on noticing the sensations in my body. I managed to prevent the images from turning into dreams or trance. I realized that it wanted to enter a trance, but I could notice, put interest in it and change the situation. In the end, I was more relaxed, but boredom and a lot of jolts started to appear. The body kept moving, as if it wanted to find a better position. It was as if I were stretching, stretching my body. I felt a certain pleasure in doing this and noticed these movements a lot. The body moved subtly, going to the left, to the right, straightening the spine. In the end, it stayed on that a lot. I was observing, noticing and trying to experience that.

DAY 2024-10-04

I meditated for an hour, and my mind was atypical, it was excited. I noticed this right at the beginning and started to take advantage of it. When thoughts and conversations arose, I pulled my mind back to the body sensations, creating interest in them. I thought: "Let's experience this, let's enjoy the moment." And I observed the simple, appreciated the simple. My mind was sharp, focused on observing the simple, wanting to understand reality. When it got to 35, 40 minutes, the dullness hadn't arrived yet. But after 40 minutes, it came, and I saw it as if the lights in the house were being turned off. However, there was still light in the center of the house. It happened gradually, not all at once; within 10 minutes, the lights were turning off. But there was still energy, my memory wasn’t so short, I could still follow the instructions, I could observe.

Throughout the meditation, I felt a big heart, a great openness. Negative experiences arose, but they were accepted broadly, without affecting me. Instructions from the Dhamma came up, to experience, to stay with the simple. I knew what had to be done, there was no doubt. Instructions to experience the body, the body speaks, see what the body is saying. And there, I began to get absorbed. At one point, I became absorbed in the breath and the sensations of the body, and it seemed like I was in high equanimity because it was a short moment, about 5 minutes, where I didn’t need to give instructions, note, or anything. I was being carried, I could see everything. I thought: "Wow, if I keep going like this, I will be absorbed into something, something will happen." But then, it passed. I felt a bit of anxiety, maybe, I’m not sure, but I came out of that state. It was calm, I thought: "It’s okay, I’ve done more than I usually do." So, I returned to noting body sensations. I felt a little bored, which passed, then a bit of anxiety, which also passed, but I was present, I was there. It was a very interesting experience.
​​​​​​​

DAY 2024-10-05

​​​​​​​I meditated for an hour and thirty minutes. I'll try to summarize. I started with the initial phase of trying to calm the mind. I don’t exactly remember how it went. I think it wasn’t easy. I had to put in a bit more energy to notice and balance the mind. Then came the phase of dullness. My memory became short, and the mind started to darken. Many images appeared. I remember this phase well. I kept trying to put effort into noticing the dullness, observing its characteristics. It was images, images turning into trance, lucid dreaming. Everything happened very quickly. I would regain consciousness again.

Around fifty minutes, my leg started to hurt. I began noticing the pain in my leg and the desire to change position, but I decided not to. Sometimes, I manage to stay still without moving, I thought. So, I stayed there enduring the pain, and it became bearable, as if it was burning, but it gradually subsided until it became light.
When fifty minutes passed, I had initially planned to meditate for one hour, but I thought: "Oh, today is Saturday, everyone is still sleeping, I should stay a bit longer." That’s when I noticed a strong reluctance, wanting to end the session. I kept observing this feeling because I had decided to continue. I noticed this reluctance until it went away. I managed to maintain the practice, continuing to observe, and then the pain in my leg started to intensify. I thought: "Well, if I’m going to stay longer, I’ll change position." Slowly, I began changing position, very gradually, which took about three minutes. After that, the pain disappeared, and I felt at ease.
Then I started to notice boredom and anxiety. I would notice these feelings disappearing. After that, I could only notice sounds, body sensations, thoughts, and comments, but everything felt neutral. I remembered to look at the simple and relax into the simple. The boredom vanished. It seemed like I wanted something to happen, but everything was neutral. I had experienced this before, so I knew what it was like. I thought: "Well, if I can't notice anything different, I’ll just stay here." And I stayed like that until completing an hour and a half.

DAY 2024-10-06

I meditated for an hour. Today, I went through a strong phase of dullness. I tried to straighten my spine and put effort into noting. Trances and lucid dreams would come. I would return to consciousness and continue noting. There was a strong discomfort in wanting to resolve the dullness. Then, I realized I wasn’t resolving it. I relaxed and let it be. I thought, "I have to experience it if it has to be this way. I’m managing to deal with it." Then, in the final phase, during the last 10 minutes, the dullness simply resolved itself and passed. I managed to stay present, only feeling the pain. I observed the pain in my leg and focused on it. I accepted it as well and let it be. Finally, the leg pain also passed and went numb. I remained there, present, just with simple things happening, without boredom. I couldn’t believe it, I started questioning, “Wow, it’s really over, nothing is happening.” I kept observing that.

DAY 2024-10-07

I meditated for an hour and ten minutes. Initially, I had difficulty calming my mind, with many thoughts and daydreams. Later, I managed to calm down a bit. I noticed the phase of dullness, which was quite strong, with lucid dreams and a trance-like state. During this phase, it took me a while to realize that I was experiencing a lot of confusion, but then I started to notice the confusion. I realized I was struggling to change the situation, fighting against the discomfort, but I was aware of it. I remembered feeling happy for being conscious. Then, I felt pain in my leg, so I decided to change its position to improve my posture and bring more energy. It worked and helped a lot. The strong dullness passed and became more shallow. I started to better accept the dullness, managing to notice small daydreams, bodily sensations, and thoughts. I became more present. With that, I decided to extend the meditation to one hour and ten minutes, to push myself a bit further. I feel that I need to increase the session time to make progress with the dullness. So, I decided to stay a bit longer.

DAY 2024-10-08

I meditated for an hour and ten minutes. The initial phase didn't have any pleasure. I haven't been experiencing much pleasure lately. In the initial phase, where I try to calm the mind, and sometimes it happens with ease, it feels like I'm already entering the Dark Night right from the start. I couldn't really distinguish this phase of ease today. No. I was noting and putting in effort. From that point onward, the phase of dullness began, with drowsiness emerging. I set the intention to experience the drowsiness, to observe this difficulty. I wasn't fully conscious the entire time, but for most of it, I was aware. I was aware of the difficulty, the irritation, and tried to straighten my spine. I had many doubts about what to do: whether to put in effort or relax and let the dullness continue.

Then I remembered that in the past few days, I had the intention to put in energy, to straighten my spine, to "fight" this. So I decided that's how it would be. I kept putting in energy and noting. This gave me more awareness. I continued noting irritation, difficulty, and confusion, but the doubt stopped coming because I had already decided how to proceed. Later, I felt pain in my leg and decided to change its position. That brought more energy. Then the dullness returned, with short dreams. The drowsiness was always very present in the background.

There was a moment when I got so irritated that a mosquito appeared, and I decided to open my eyes and kill it because it was bothering me.

But I decided that I needed to understand and get to know this drowsiness, which has been my greatest difficulty. I needed to understand it. So I kept noting, observing it, and putting in energy, but it didn’t change much. The difficulty was still there, and I continued noting it.

DAY 2024-10-09

I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I set the intention to observe the resistance, the desire to change the situation. From the beginning, that was my focus, as well as observing the energy and keeping my spine straight. I went through the initial phase with some ease, although not much. I was present, aware, investigating. There wasn't much pleasure in this first phase. Then, around thirty minutes in, the dullness phase began. I noticed it coming. I was observing the desire to change. Sometimes, I would notice and observe this desire fading away, and then I would just remain with bodily sensations, watching images and noting drowsiness.

Around fifty minutes in, I changed the position of my leg to stay longer. It brought some energy, but then the dullness returned. The dullness deepened and became stronger. I had lucid dreams, confusion, and my awareness was going in and out very quickly. However, I still had a strong sense of vigilance, always trying to notice the desire to change what I was experiencing. Sometimes, I could notice it and succeed; other times, I wasn’t fully conscious, drifting into lucid dreams, trying to correct something, some illusion. When the time reached an hour and twenty minutes, I was still facing the dullness.

DAY 2024-10-10

I meditated for 1 hour and 20 minutes. Like yesterday, the highlight was the phase of dullness. However, it seems that I'm becoming more aware, understanding this phase better. I've been setting the intention to experience it, to understand it better, and to observe the desire to change the situation. I noticed little resistance to the dullness today, and little desire to change the situation. There was a lot of acceptance, and even an interest in understanding this phase of dullness.

I noticed many images, seeing them turn into trance-like dreams. When I came out of them, I was aware that I had been trying to fix the dullness or adjust something to regain clarity. There was discomfort. When I came out of the trance, I would become aware of this discomfort and realize that I had been trying to do something in the trance to regain consciousness. It was always something strange, like trying to use a screwdriver to open a gate. I think this represents an attempt to escape the dullness.
There were many trances, but they were quick. They didn’t last long; if they lasted 30 seconds, that was a lot. At most, maybe one minute, but most were under 30 seconds. When I was aware, I noticed a numbness in my mind and also in my body. This numbness seemed related to a certain level of relaxation, with the body being very relaxed.
I noticed the senses opening up: sounds, pain in my legs, vibrations, jolts, many movements in my spine, jolting from side to side as if trying to adjust my posture. There was a lot of awareness and acceptance throughout the practice.

I forgot to mention that today I finished with the feeling that I did it the right way. I experienced what needed to be experienced. I did what could be done. I left feeling good, motivated.

Very interesting!

DAY 2024-10-11

I meditated for an hour and twenty-five minutes. I began by setting the intention to better understand this phase of dullness, to accept it more, to note and observe as much as possible during this phase, trying to detect any desires for change. There was an initial phase of control, with some ease and a certain level of pleasure. I say "certain" because it has been somewhere between moderate and neutral, right? So, there was that phase. Then came the phase of dullness, which deepened. But, like yesterday, today I had a lot of awareness. There were three moments when I came back from lucid dreams and realized what I was doing in those dreams. It was an illusion. In one of them, for example, since I am a programmer, I was trying to record what I was experiencing. It was as if something was connected to a computer in my head, and I gave a command to record it. An illusion, right? In that sense.

There were two other illusions. In one, I was trying to grab a cloud of images to record them too, as if it was to tell you about them later. The third one, I don't remember, and it doesn't matter anymore. These lucid dreams were quick, for sure they lasted less than 30 seconds, probably around 10 seconds.
At the 50-minute mark, I changed positions because my leg was hurting. I wanted to change to extend the session. Maybe in another session, I’ll try to stay with the leg pain, but today I preferred not to.
With 10 minutes left, I noticed that I was more focused. The dullness was passing, and near the end, I started observing only my leg throbbing. It was just the pain in my leg, without any desire for change. It was interesting to see that. Like in the Arrow Sutra, there was no "second arrow," no desire for change. There was only the pain, and I stayed there observing it.

DAY 2024-10-12

I meditated for one hour and ten minutes. I went through the dullness phase and set the intention to continue understanding it better by investigating it further. Today, I managed to perceive and become more aware of the moment when the trance begins. It's as if I were on the edge of consciousness, being pulled from one side to the other. It feels like I'm being pulled by this world where I am or going to the other side, which is the unconsciousness of the trance. In this sense, there's an image of something, but no story—just an image of something trying to be done. For example, today I was cutting a piece of cake, as if it had some meaning, wanting to cut the cake to solve something. But "solving something" feels too strong for me. It's an attempt to pull consciousness, to be aware, to get out of that discomfort of unconsciousness.

Then, the pain in my leg, around 50 minutes in, which is routine, made me change positions to stay longer. However, the position I chose wasn’t good. I started feeling a lot of discomfort and unwillingness. I moved around a lot, my concentration decreased, and the unwillingness increased. I ended up finishing the session with some resistance.

DAY 2024-10-13

Today, I meditated for an hour. I continued focusing on the resolution to experience the dullness, to go deeper, to understand more, knowing that my mind will overcome it. Having faith that, by looking and observing, it will overcome this phase. With this openness, this open heart to experience, I started meditating.

In the dullness phase—I'll jump straight to that—I was experiencing it without entering a trance, on the threshold between the conscious and unconscious, at the edge between consciousness and trance. I noticed the images and the dream trying to manifest, but my consciousness remained clear, and I didn’t enter the trance. I noticed again that pattern of images and mental movement. For example, today I saw a person on a motorcycle trying to maneuver it between two cars, as if it were stuck. Then, I saw myself washing cutlery, trying to clean a lot of cutlery, repeatedly washing them. This cutlery scene even happened twice. I had already noticed it, I was aware, noting bodily sensations, and then the scene came back. There were two other moments that I noticed clearly, but I can't recall them now.
Today, I shifted my focus: I wasn’t trying to force my comfort zone in terms of noting speed. I let things happen, relaxed, and I found it better because I had more control over this dullness phase. I also felt a great deal of acceptance of this phase. Now I will shift again, returning to the pattern of relaxing and letting things unfold, without forcing or controlling.

Yesterday and today I couldn't meditate. I caught a virus and was bedridden. Today, my wife caught it, and I had to take care of the baby.

May you and your family heal fast! Best wishes! 

Thanks Dusko :-)

DAY 2024-10-16

I meditated for one hour and ten minutes. I started by focusing on a pain in my stomach, a heaviness that I’m still feeling due to the virus I had. Later, in the dullness phase, this no longer drew much attention. I focused on understanding the dullness, on observing it, so I was again very aware of it, on the threshold between consciousness and a trance-like state, noticing images, noticing attempts to solve something, attempts that were meaningless dreams, like the examples I’ve been giving. I would notice them and return to observing sensations in the body. Little by little, the dullness passed, and I continued, but towards the end, I was noticing that phase which seems to be re-observation. A "chaos" of things arising very quickly, too fast to note everything. I decided to just watch, observe. It felt like I was "surfing" on these things as they arose. At times, I would sink into them, but when I managed to be more aware, I wouldn’t get caught up in them, I wouldn’t identify with them, I would just surf over them. This is one way to explain what I felt during this moment of rapid noting. And that was how it ended. Thank you.

The dullness phase has shown me how much the mind is always trying to solve something. It is constantly wanting to change, to alter the current state. This has become very clear. And it’s also clear that this is not a self, just an illusion, because they are crazy dreams.

DAY 2024-10-17

Today, I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I started with the intention of experiencing dullness, understanding it better, and accepting it. I'm still in that phase, but trying to relax more. I followed my usual noting rhythm, where I prefer to observe more and note less, without forcing it.

With that in mind, I continued the meditation. The initial phase was pleasant and calm, and then the dullness phase arrived. It deepened. I noticed that threshold between consciousness and trance. Sometimes, I realized I was trying to fix things, but today I also noticed that, in some moments, it wasn't that. They were just crazy, meaningless dreams.
I then decided to count my breaths to have a reference and understand how long I stayed in trance. I don't know if it was due to the noting or the counting, but the trance was very brief, a matter of seconds, because I was able to count without losing consciousness or track of the counting. With that, I moved out of the dullness phase.
In the end, there was that neutral phase, sometimes with a slight feeling of boredom. I started to observe that while trying to count, and at the same time, I tried to appreciate the simplicity of the moment, allowing myself to feel that simplicity. But before I could continue, the time was up.
Tomorrow, I will try counting again during the dullness phase to see if the same thing happens or if something changes. I'll experience it and try again.

DAY 2024-10-18

I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I started with good energy, with a lot of awareness. I took the opportunity to investigate because I was very interested in investigating. But at the beginning, during the control phase, you investigate, investigate, observe things arising. There’s a feeling that an insight will come, something will happen, and you stay there, interested. Then, the dullness phase started to appear. I tried to handle it with calm, patience, and kindness. I used investigative energy and interest to keep awareness present. That worked for a while, but then there was no way. Dullness came.

Then came the insight: that's just how it is. The mind follows its own course. I have no control over it. There’s no way to stay aware all the time, or to keep energy all the time, or to maintain that initial phase. It seems that the teaching is about having the humility to accept that we are not in control. The mind follows its own way; there is no “self” in control. It seems that’s the teaching. Although I haven’t fully learned it yet, I feel that’s the direction.

During the dullness phase, I noticed some restlessness, a desire to understand this phase, a desire to understand what I need to learn from it. There was a lot of restlessness. So I would note, investigate, observe. And then came the teaching that I need to learn humility, to let go of control. After that, came the boredom. A great boredom. Alongside this restlessness, boredom arose. It's hard to understand the boundary between the two. And then came the teaching: I need to experience this. I’ve been told before that I need to experience these things. And as I accepted and experienced it, it passed.

It's interesting to notice that, once again, I wasn't the one who came up with this idea. It just arose. Out of nowhere, it appeared. Some days, it arises, I accept it, it passes, and everything becomes simple, neutral. But I depend on the teaching to emerge. Some days it doesn’t, and the phase doesn’t pass. Restlessness increases. I think that’s what the mind needs to learn. When people say that it’s the mind that awakens, it seems like it’s the mind that, over time, receives these teachings and gains wisdom. I need to experience these things so that the teaching can arise and the mind can move forward. It seems that’s how it is.

When I’m in the dullness phase, I get the sense that reasoning, the intellectual part of the human being, becomes very muffled. Teachings from memory aren’t easy to apply. They only arise spontaneously. It seems like you can’t bring them up through effort.
After meditation, it becomes clear that if I had applied that teaching (it’s difficult, but it’s simply about accepting the experience), I would have been able to resolve it. But during the dullness phase, I can’t do that; I find myself fighting, struggling with boredom, frustration, and the desire to achieve something. The teaching doesn’t arise, and it can’t be applied deliberately; it appears spontaneously. In the initial control phase, we can have that control and apply these kinds of teachings, but in the dullness phase, we can’t.

DAY 2024-10-19

I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes with a very attentive and interested mind. Today, there was a strong feeling of letting the mind follow its course. If it had something to say, let it say it. But there was that feeling. This phase of dullness will always settle in, even now, with my mind interested and noting with ease. And I thought: just let it happen and see what comes. There is no way to control it. Don’t try to control it. And that’s how I proceeded, with this in mind. The phase of ease was there. I wasn’t controlling anything. I realized I was letting the mind be the mind. And the phase of dullness came. It came in waves. I noticed, I observed, thinking maybe it would settle now. And then a great interest in observing would arise. And suddenly, energy would come back. The dullness didn’t deepen. But these waves of dullness kept coming until, finally, a deep dullness arrived. And that was fine, I kept noting, with great acceptance of the phase. I noticed lucid dreams, trances. They were quick, trying to fix something. I noted: okay, that’s fine, great acceptance. This must have lasted around 15 minutes. This deeper phase must have lasted about 15 minutes. Then I began to come out of it. I moved into a phase of monotony, boredom. But not very strong, shallow. I even had doubts about what was there. I wanted to note, and I noted doubt: what am I feeling? I couldn’t note it because it was so light. It was neutral, everything was neutral. The bodily sensations I noted were neutral. I looked at the emotions, trying to see what was there. It was monotonous. And in that monotony, a small pain in my leg started bothering me. So I kept observing it, because there seemed to be nothing else to observe. Then I decided to change my position. I slowly changed my position. And then, I felt a deep relaxation. My mind wanted to observe this well-being. A sense of well-being came along. The breath became longer, pleasant. Then it became shallow, pleasant. And then this well-being, along with pleasure, came over me. Pleasure and well-being together. I stayed there for about 10 minutes, enjoying that moment. When it reached one hour and twenty minutes, I felt a desire to keep going. But I have a commitment today, my son’s birthday, and I needed to stop. Otherwise, I would have stayed longer.

Nice. You're right on track. Isn't it interesting how the mind keeps throwing stuff in the way, almost as a test? But you can see that the "problem" of dullness isn't dullness, it's how we initially react to it. And over time, learning to maintain "awareness" even as "attention" becomes dull gives you a whole bunch of new skills and maturity that wouldn't happen any other way. This is basically training for all four paths. The knowing of experience ultimately doesn't depend on what is is being experienced.

Exactly, Shargrol. With much effort and persistence, I am slowly discovering this. I really wouldn't have discovered it if I hadn't faced the challenge.

By the way, is this phase of dullness the way my mind reacts to the DN (Dark Night), or is it just an independent characteristic of my mind as the Vipassana stages progress? Thanks!

DAY 2024-10-20

I meditated for an hour. The mind wasn't very energetic because there was a party yesterday; it was an unusual day. I drank beer. I was sleeping and didn’t think I would be able to get up. I didn’t even set an alarm. But I decided to get up and meditate, and I managed to do the meditation. It was calm, going well, without forcing it. But the energy was average. Interestingly, the dullness phase came, but it only lasted 15 minutes. I was aware. I thought it would be deep, that I wouldn’t be able to meditate, but it was totally different from what I expected. It was like yesterday: despite not having much energy today, the depth was shallow, just like yesterday. And it lasted 15 minutes. Then, I entered a monotony phase, which didn’t last long, and then came a pleasant phase of well-being. I just kept noting pleasure and well-being in the bodily sensations.

It's probably a little bit of both. Of course this phase of dullness is the way your mind reacts to the DN. But there is also a more universal aspect to this where the mind instinctually avoids the raw sensate experience of life and finds apparent relief in emotions and thoughts --- and this is learned in many different ways/flavors with stages/paths of progress. In buddhist terminology, these are all flavors of "aversion". 

Generally speaking, raw sensate experience gives us the fastest and most "information" but can be overwhelming/triggering. (Most of our early human development is finding ways to soften the rawness of experience, develop functional emotions, and develop useful thinking frameworks --- and this is important developmental work!) But without a meditation practice, most of the time we live by only using our emotions and our thoughts (and for "smart" people, lots and lots of thoughts!). We are kind of living in a disconnected state, it feel like being carried away by our emotions and our thoughts.  It takes intentional practice to re-learn how to directly experience life without aversion.

Interesting. Thank you very much, Shargrol!

In the session just now, I tried to investigate this, why the mind avoids the raw sensation. This raw sensation would be the sensations of the body, from the sense doors, right?

DAY 2024-10-21

Today, I meditated for 1 hour and 10 minutes. Just like the day before yesterday and yesterday, I was very interested in observing and investigating. The phase of dullness was shallow, light, and quick. I was very aware. During the transition, as I came out of the dullness, I noticed myself trying to understand why the mind was avoiding raw sensations from the body and the sense doors. I became interested in observing this because Shargrol mentioned it in his latest post. I tried to see it but couldn’t understand why. I think it’s because I didn’t need to understand, just observe. I realize now that I was trying to understand with the mind, with the intellect. When I let go of that attempt and relaxed, the dukkha decreased, and I was able to connect more with the sensations of the body. I even began to experience pleasure in observing my upright spine and my breathing. It was interesting to see how relaxing and letting go of the need to understand changed the experience.

In this sense, it seems that the mind was looking for thoughts or trying to understand, because it's more interesting than just observing bodily sensations, the sense doors. It seems it's not interesting for the mind to keep observing that, and it gets tired of it.

The mind also wants to avoid the raw experience of the sensations of dullness itself

These are prompting questions to move the mind more fully into the raw experience of dullness:

What really is the experience of dullness? Experiences don't come pre-labelled, so how do you know for sure what you are experiencing is dullness? What are the specific sensation, emotions, and thoughts you associate with the label "dullness"? How is it the same or different from rest, relaxation, boredom, apathy, depression, sadness, fatigue, indifference, aversion, peacefulness, tranquilty, confusion, fear, hope? Is dullness always the same experience? Are there different flavors of sensations within dullness? Are there positive tones in dullness? Where do the positive tones occur? Are there negative tones in dullness? Where do the negative tones occur? Is there neutralness in dullness? Where do the neutral tones occur? Do emotions and thoughts turn postive tones into greed/clinging? Where is this clinging? Do emotions and thoughts turn negative tones into aversion? Where is this aversion? Does the mind want to ignore the neutral tones? How do you know there is ignoring? Where is the sense of self when you experience dullness? Is it the same as the dullness itself or different? Where is the dullness located and where are you located? Is dullness in you or outside of you? How do you know? Where is the mind that "knows" the dullness? Is the mind that knows affected by dullness or does it simply know dullness. 

(This is classic vipassina practice -- "clear seeing" or "special seeing" -- and the prompting questions work for a lot of apparent problematic states, especially dissolution, fear, misery, disgust, desire for deliverance, reobservation, and equanimity.  When there is an aparently problematic state that arises in meditation, don't push it away or try to go past it, instead want it stick around so you can study and love it to death. Go deeply into the experience. Try experiencing it from a lot of different angles. It might not be the problem you think it is.)

I know a lot of traditions almost demonize dullness... but dullness, like dukka, is a teacher. Don't try to kill the teacher too soon. 

One way to think of it: the "self" identifies with thoughts (and sometimes emotions) and it thinks that the body is something else. "I am here and my body is over there."

But this is how mind-body duality works -- this apparent separation. But is it real? Or is it the reason we feel disconnected from our own lived experience? We all have experienced a deep intimacy and richness of experience, even during times that objectively seemed like "bad" experiences, but we felt a kind of immediacy and wonder --- why don't we feel this right now? (And why can't we feel this in the midst of dullness!?)

Progress happens from becoming more interested in sensate experience. Seeing it all again brand new, as if for the first time. It's is not possible to be 100% focused on raw sensations -- emotions and thoughts will arise. But going in the direction of being interested in sensations themselves is essential, otherwise we just swirl around in our thinking about experience, trying to fix experience, trying to improve experience. When meditation gets deep we realize that we don't really know what sensate experience IS. And that can induce a kind of sub-conscious primal terror. We don't want to look too closely...

It's interesting: when we are fully experiencing sensations, there really isn't much "self" occuring. This is probably why we create this self-identified-with-thought and we are thinking all the time. But it's so exhausting!  

So meditation practice is an opportunity to see --- in a very direct way --- what our "self" is doing all the time and how we turn present experience into a problem to think about, fix, and improve all because we want to protect and strengthen the sense of self.

But we also get glimpses of the initimacy and peace that comes from momentarily dropping the self-other problem and just letting experience be as it is. We can't make it happen and when it does happen we usually have all sorts of thoughts about how to keep doing it or what nana or jhana or path we have attained, but this is all part of the process. Eventually we get very used to experience arising where it does as it does.

You can fight the reality, but you'll always lose.   Use meditation to get very curious about the nature of sensate reality, whatever it is. 

Yes, exactly. Now get curious: how does the mind become uninterested and tired? What is the series of events?What is happening there? Make a study of it. What doesn't it like? What is it trying to avoid? What would happen if you had to experience it? Can you let that happen?

Your goal should be to go through this loop 10 times a sit and really make a study of it! See if you can see how the intention to look at sensations becomes thinking and lack of interest and fatigue.

​​​​​​​This is the good stuff. This is where the insights happen.

At this specific point, I was noticing the thoughts. They were thoughts of doubt: 'am I missing something? I must be... keep investigating.' And when I let go, I felt relief. So, based on everything you wrote today, I think it’s the 'I' wanting to 'do' something to gain 'insight.' But again, it was the 'I' dissatisfied with just feeling the sensations and staying there with that simplicity. It seems that was all.

Currently, I see the "dullness" phase as:

• A deeper relaxation, letting go of control (pleasant)
• Momentary losses of awareness, bringing a desire to be in control (unpleasant, sometimes neutral)
• When I am more aware, coming out of the deep phase of dullness, boredom/monotony usually appears (unpleasant), but I have been seeing the positive side of this and managing to let go, moving to the next phase.

I will read this tomorrow before the session to help me investigate further.

Very interesting..

I feel that this insight is very close to reaching its fullness. I've seen this a lot, and when I do, I let go and feel a great relief, but I can’t always manage to do that.

​​​​​​​Thank you so much, Shargrol!

Who knows, it might be a simple as saying "so what if I'm dull who cares what's the big deal? There's no problem with being dull. I want to be this way." <br /><br />definitely use your intuition&nbsp;

I like Shargrol's advice "So what if I'm dull?" "Who cares?"I would say ... "Fuck it !!"

I always understand this kind of stuff as: one needs to relax below the layer of mind that is doing the seeking such that your relaxed aware body-mind can see that the seeking is causing the suffering.

Now that's not something you can search for and it seems like while you're starting to see this stuff you're also still doing too much seeking. Or you gain an insight or some relief and then immediately turn that into an intellectual pattern because the mind thinks it can get deeper spiritual gratification if it turns practice into some repeatable pattern.

I think a "so what, who cares" type practice would be useful to help you embrace the dullness, completely, totally, absolutely. I think it would help you give up desperately hoping that practice will fix something.


What is the shape, texture, tone, color, mood, vibration, movement of this: Can you explore the phenomenology of this in a simple relaxed way? Without seeking after it? Can you see the pattern of it? It can be really useful to relax and watch that pattern play out over and over and over again. 

Why do you think the 'I' is so dissatisfied with just feeling sensations? What is so dissatisfactory?

Often the Koan "I do not know what any thing is" is of help to me in sticky situations. Because if you look at the language your using clearly some part of you thinks it knows how things should be but the truth of it is you really don't know. You don't know what practice should be like or how you should feel or what you should think about. You just don't know.

The below is what I found when I opened up my daily reading.

Huang Po - On the first day of the ninth moon, the Master said to me: From the time when the Great Master Bodhidharma arrived in China, he spoke only of the One Mind and transmitted only the one Dharma. He used the Buddha to transmit the Buddha, never speaking of any other Buddha. He used the Dharma to transmit the Dharma, never speaking of any other Dharma. That Dharma was the wordless Dharma, and that Buddha was the intangible Buddha, since they were in fact that Pure Mind which is the source of all things. This is the only truth; all else is false. Prajna is wisdom; wisdom is the formless oiginal Mind-Source. Ordinary people do not seek the Way, but merely indulge their six senses which lead them back into the six realms of existence. A student of the Way, by allowing himself a single samsaric thought, falls among devils. If he permits himself a single thought leading to differential perception, he falls into heresy. To hold that there is something born and to try to eliminate it, that is to fall among the Sravakas. To hold that things are not born but capable of destruction is to fall among the Pratyekas.

Nothing is born, nothing is destroyed. Away with your dualism, your likes and dislikes. Every single thing is just the One Mind. When you have perceived this, you will have mounted the Chariot of the Buddhas.

*

Ordinary people all indulge in conceptual thought based on environmental phenomena, hence they feel desire and hatred. To eliminate environmental phenomena, just put an end to your conceptual thinking. When this ceases, environmental phenomena are void; and when these are void, thought ceases. But if you try to eliminate environment without first putting a stop to conceptual thought, you will not succeed, but merely increase its power to disturb you. Thus all things are naught but Mind-intangible Mind; so what can you hope to attain? Those who are students of Prajna hold that there is nothing tangible whatever, so they cease thinking of the Three Vehicles. * There is only the one reality, neither to be realized nor attained. To say ' I am able to realize something' or 'I am able to attain something ' is to place yourself among the arrogant. The men who lapped their garments and left the meeting as mentioned in the Lotus Sutra were just such people. Therefore the Buddha said: ' I truly obtained nothing from Enlightenment. ' There is just a mysterious tacit understanding and no more.

---

We're not really SEEKING to STOP conceptual thought but what I want to highlight here is the role your thinking and conceptualizing and judging is playing in your experience of suffering. Also, particularly after we've found some success with meditation practice, our conceptual mind can start to hijack our practice, it can get too involved, it can start to make it seem like we're doing meditation. 

I don't want to get too meta or high level. Shargrol's really the one you should pay attention to but I just wanted to chime in for whatever reason.

DAY 2024-10-22

I meditated for an hour and ten minutes. I started by reading Shargrol's posts. I wanted to observe the "seeker," the one who is always trying to fix the experience. It was very strong for me. That’s the point where I need to have an insight. I had a strong feeling that this is the big point, the key that I need to understand. With that in mind, I was very attentive, observing how this seeker is the "self" that gets in the way. We could be calm, at ease, just experiencing and seeing the richness of the present moment. This brought me a lot of interest and awareness.

During the phase I pre-labeled as dullness, when it arrived, I remembered what Shargrol said. I started to notice the characteristics of the experience. I couldn't label it as dullness. What I was experiencing was relaxation. The body faded a little. The bodily sensations were relaxed, calm, neutral. There was peace. But I was very aware. So, how could I say I was dull? It really wasn’t dullness. I was very aware, calm, and relaxed. My vision was dark, but I was there, fully present. In that sense, I felt a lot of happiness. I applied another teaching: don’t let the teacher leave. Make the most of him. So I kept observing. Opening the heart also helps to accept the moment, to be more present in it, and to want to experience it.
That was it. There really wasn't that "self" looking for or finding a flaw in the moment. With this, the moment completely transformed. But towards the end, something else came up... I noticed monotony. And it was interesting to see that... this thought came to my mind: "Oh, now there's monotony, I'll have to keep experiencing this." But then I questioned it: "What do you mean? If there was a note of monotony, look again to see if it’s really there." And when I looked and wanted to experience it, the monotony was no longer there. I realized we pre-label moments, thinking they are enduring, that they will last. But they don’t. The experience is constantly changing. And there was no more monotony. It was just a label of monotony.
So I kept observing. And that was it. There was no more monotony; it was just a label. It was very interesting to see all of this today.

Yes. This knowledge has become increasingly clear to me. Today it was very clear in my session.

I agree!

I used this today and was good.

I agree!

I agree!

Thank you so much, Bahiya!

Today, I looked at what the experience was showing me with different eyes. I didn’t pre-label it. I was calm enough to observe the details. I also used it as my teacher. It helped a lot to think: "don’t let this go away because it has something to teach you." This opened my heart even more. As a result, I didn’t go through the usual dullness phase that I typically experience.

DAY 2024-10-23

I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I started with the resolution to accept difficulties, not to let the "teacher" leave too early, and to take the opportunity to learn. I also focused on relaxing and observing conceptualization, the search to see what was causing dukkha. Today, my mind wasn’t as sharp; I noticed it wandering more. During the phase of dullness, I tried to observe the characteristics of this state. I noticed several characteristics, but without pre-labeling; I focused on trying to see them directly. And then, as I observed yesterday, it can’t really be called dullness. Every day is different, every moment is different. Dullness changes. Basically, there is a relaxation behind it. And with relaxation, sometimes I see images, and sometimes there are lucid dreams, but it can’t be labeled dullness, because all these experiences have different characteristics.

I tried to focus on dukkha, noticing when it arose. I realized that many times I was conceptualizing, searching, and looking for something, and that caused dukkha, so I would let it go. I tried to remember a teaching from Shargrol, about noting a cycle ten times, but I couldn’t remember exactly what it was. I’ll read it again later. I think it was related to dullness. Anyway, I’ll have to check, because I don’t recall it clearly. I want to apply this more often because I found it really interesting to try making these observations and approaching things without pre-labeling, just being present with the experience.

DAY 2024-10-24

I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I'll get straight to the point. During the dullness phase, I didn’t pre-label it as dullness; I just noticed that it was the phase I usually pre-label as such. I started to note the characteristics with the perspective of directly seeing what was happening and not based on what I thought, or the pattern I thought would occur. I realized that in this phase, the mind was really trying to fit into past experiences. I would note that and move on. It was very interesting to see that.

I noted relaxation, dark vision, investigation, aversion, bodily sensations, sensory doors, desire for liberation, sometimes confusion, monotony, and anxiety. Throughout it all, I kept remembering the teaching: "Don't let the teacher leave. Love this state to death." This opened my heart and eased the emotions. It was a cycle. When I remembered this, I would note, open my heart, relax again, and when it returned, everything was fine, everything was calm. Noting like that and accepting, despite the ups and downs, I accepted the lows, understanding that’s how it was.
There came a moment when the pain in my leg became more noticeable than anything else, so I decided to change positions. That improved my energy, but the general characteristics of dullness were still there. What was interesting is that, about five minutes later, I noticed, as I had been noticing, "Stay in this state, love it to death." And out of nowhere, the tone shifted from aversion to neutral. About ten seconds later, relief came, and then it quickly shifted to pleasure. The aversion shifted to neutral and then rapidly to pleasure. I was even startled because I didn’t understand why it changed all of a sudden. I had been noting, "Stay with the teacher, love it to death." Then I saw that the mind had changed, it accepted that state. It wasn’t me, it was the mind.
I stayed for about five more minutes in this state of pleasure, and then it shifted to neutral again. And again, I noticed and was surprised, thinking: "Wow, now it’s neutral." It was clear to see this change. And I wasn’t doing anything; there was no "me" behind it—it was the mind that changed. It was very interesting to witness that.

This is really really good. 

Kenneth folk had a comment he would always say when a breakthrough or big insight occurred: "now one of three things will happen, it will get even better, or it will get worse, or it will stay the same." His point is we can't control or predict how things will go, we just have to continue to meet what arises and fully experience it. 

:-)

DAY 2024-10-25

Today, I meditated for an hour and a half. In the dullness phase, I noticed various intensities. I noted what was usual, but an interesting moment came when it felt like I was in a maze, noting, walking, until I reached a point where I felt cornered. I didn’t know what to note. Then it occurred to me to look at the body, the sensations of the body. This maze without an exit was actually because I was too focused on mental aspects. When I stopped, it vanished—there was nothing left to note there—no conversations or emotions. Unsure of what to note, I turned my attention to the body. That’s where I found myself again, bringing energy, more awareness, and I continued noting the body: the breath, the spine, feeling each part. It was interesting to observe this.

Later, in another moment, I wasn’t sure if I felt aversion toward the moment or not, but I realized I also wasn’t calm or feeling pleasure. There was discomfort. I started to notice that it really existed, and it became clear that there was aversion to what I was feeling—a kind of aversion to raw sensations. So, I began noting, with quite a bit of acceptance, that subtle aversion. I tried to investigate. It seemed that the aversion came from the sensations in the body, since the position wasn’t very comfortable. I felt vibrations in the body, and sometimes they weren’t pleasant. I kept on noting all of this. I noticed that I could perhaps "switch" and accept it, moving toward a neutral or pleasant state, but I saw that it didn’t depend on me. So, I kept noting and accepting, learning from the teacher. :-)

This is good stuff! Best wishes! 

The same way one can get absorbed and lost in the Jhana states, one can also get absorbed and lost in the dull state. In both cases there can be a realm of sorts feeding the clinging to stay there and to remain in that "form". At this time my old teacher Kenneth would say that it's ok to ask "is there anything else happening here besides this absorption .... (whatever that might be, anger, bliss, dullness, joy, agony, pleasure ... ) 

So we ask and look around  ... oh there is hearing, there is itching, there is the body posture, there is breathing in, there is falling and rising of abdomen , there is coolness on the skin etc ... 

Yes Dusko. I understand and I am trying to see this. Thanks!

DAY 2024-10-26

"I meditated for 1 hour and 10 minutes, going through the pre-labeling phase of dullness. Each day has been a new experience, as I now understand that the experience changes moment by moment. I know that, at times, a preconceived idea of what I might encounter arises, but I don’t apply it; I know it’s an illusion, and I don’t let myself be led as if it were real. Previously, that preconceived notion would make me lose interest in meditation, but now I realize it isn’t like that, and I’ve become more interested in the experiences. I try to apply this awareness in each moment, noting and seeing the experience in a different way. With this, awareness sharpens and remains constantly observing, and the experience changes, becoming more intense.

I still see these preconceived notions of dullness arise; they still come up. However, when I notice them, I look at them differently, and they change. Toward the end, I observed Mara's tricks: when a feeling, such as anxiety, arises and the mind wants to take some action to change it, the wisdom to simply look, experience, and see what it is also arises. And, by doing this, the feeling passes, changes, and calm returns. I saw this happen many times, with various discomforts and attempts to avoid them. However, wisdom came from the experience and acceptance, like a teacher.

Today, like yesterday, there wasn’t that sudden shift to peace, but I feel that now I’m truly able to experience meditation, observing it with different eyes, with eyes of 'metta,' with the perspective of someone who genuinely wants to experience it. And this has been very good, as I’ve had more moments of being with the experiences in a raw and bare way."

I had two important birthday parties to go to yesterday. Because of that, I was very tired and couldn't get up to meditate.

I meditated for an hour and ten minutes. I started by setting the intention of letting the teacher stay, not wanting him to leave too soon, experiencing things without pre-labeling, and observing the richness of the present moment experience. In summary, there were moments when I managed to create interest in the mind, to observe, to experience, to see that experience as unique, as if it were the first time. I noticed the mind comparing it with other moments.
The dullness phase brought many images. I observed several of them trying to turn into a trance, but most of the time, I managed to just look at the image and notice its presence. For example, there was a moment when one image lasted quite a while: I was cutting out a drawing on paper, trying to be precise and perfect, cutting it out neatly. I tried to change my focus, but the mind wanted to keep looking at that. It stayed on that image for a good amount of time.
Then, an image of a balloon full of smoke appeared, with the smoke swirling inside the balloon. I stayed aware, watching it, and questioning why I wasn’t focusing on body sensations, but the image held my attention and lingered. So, I let it be, staying conscious of it.
Later, I moved into the phase of pain in my leg. I tried to observe the pain and changed my position. Even so, the pain kept pulling my attention, so I stayed there, observing the vibrations. Then, the mind started rejecting it, no longer wanting to look at it. I stayed observing these rejections, as it was hard to remain with the raw and direct sensations, trying to see the sensory experience. But sometimes, I lost that intention and stayed in this process.

In recent days, a thought has emerged that has greatly alleviated my suffering regarding the 'desire for spiritual progress.' It has become clearer that the development of the mind does not depend 'on me,' but only on my continued practice (persistence), as it naturally finds its own way. This realization has made me feel relieved and lighter in my daily life. Previously, I felt I always had to strive to practice. I even had concerns about my family members' personal development. But now I see that everyone has their own pace, and I only focus on helping them remain good people.

Completing... there isn't an easier path, this is the direct path: to see dukkha and know it fully. But before, I used to look at negative emotions and confuse them as being "an indication that I was on the wrong path", hahaha... tricks of Mara!

Good stuff!

I meditated for an hour and thirty minutes. Yesterday and today, I was reading the book Wake Up to Your Life, and it really inspired me to try to see this separation that the mind creates between the "self" and the experience. So, I was trying to be only with the experience. When we are only with the experience, we don’t create the "self." I know this intellectually. But I sat down with this desire to see it. And I think this interfered a bit. Did it interfere? I don’t just think so; I’m sure of it. Because I ended up putting too much effort into trying to see this, staying too focused on the intellectual idea, leaning too much toward the experience.
With this, the dullness phase came in the old way, and I couldn’t experience it as something new. It ended up fitting into old patterns. So, I had many lucid dreams and trance states. Then came a struggle, a big one. I noticed the confusion, the difficulty in the sense that I was putting too much effort into getting out of it. I was trying to correct it. And toward the end, I saw that the mind gave up trying to correct. It relaxed a bit. Then, it entered the monotony phase. But the suffering decreased significantly. It just stayed there, in that phase of monotony and boredom, until the end.

Yeah, it's funny... We can't directly investigate the self because the SEARCHING for the self IS the self.   We keep learning this again and again until we are an arhat. It's the same lesson, we just get more and more sensitive to the subtly of it and then we aren't confused by the sense that need to protect an apparent self. 

Searching for the self is possible for some psychological aspects of being a self... but it doesn't work for the very subtle sense of self. That's why meditation is necessary. We need to allow the selfing to happen without manipulation and somehow the knowing part of our mind learns what the apparent self is over time. It can't be figured out or investigated directly (after it gets to this level of subtleness).

Some of the classic ways that people stagnate in meditation is that they identify with the thinking, searching, investigating, evaluating, planning, etc. part of the mind and fail to see that all of that can be known, therefore none of that is the self.

All we can do is spend time sensing it --- and suddenly we understand.


ADDING ON:

The trick here is balance: using as little "searching" or "sensing" energy as you can and mostly allowing experience to arise and be known as directly as possible. So there has to be an intention, but there can't be manipulation. How to do this is beyond being able to describe with words, unfortunately, but all serious meditators know about this need for a very kind of subtle balance between trying to meditate and allowing meditation to happen. 

Yes! The more I searched, the more I suffered lol.

This reinforces that I need to keep investing in relaxation and letting the mind find its own way. I need to step aside and let it go.

Thank you so much, Shargrol :-) !!!

I understand. I think there have been times when I managed to do that.

Yes, I understand. Too subtle to describe in words (which are coarse).

I did an hour and twenty minutes. I set the intention to keep the teacher, to benefit from him, not to let him leave so soon. But today there was nothing new. I went through the phase of dullness. I tried to look at it with a different perspective. It had varying intensities. At certain moments, I tried to characterize it in a way that would break the usual view I have of dullness. But I also experienced moments of unconsciousness, of trance.
I felt the phase of re-observation, where there was confusion, not knowing what I was doing. Then I would notice that I was trying to correct something. I would let go, keep noting and observing, trying to perceive without manipulating. I felt pain in my posture and changed positions. The energy shifted. I took advantage of the moments of greater awareness to observe more attentively.
Toward the end, I began to have more clarity, a broader perspective, noticing more body sensations and being more present in the experience. But there wasn’t that shift where the mind becomes completely neutral.
​​​​​​​

I do 1:20. I initially went through a phase where I needed to shift the mind’s focus to bodily sensations, so the dullness wouldn’t turn into the usual dullness I often experience. This helped. Later, I became very aware of the “self” in the experience. I was in the Dark Night phase, the one most people talk about, seeing dukkha — a lot of dukkha — and I could perceive the sense of “self” in all of it. The “self” trying to fix things. The “self” trying to search, the “self” trying to get out of the way.
I thought, “I need to get out of the way, let the meditation happen.” But then came a fear that, by stepping back and relaxing too much, the dullness I usually encounter would appear. However, I trusted my mind, my practice, and my mindfulness, and it worked. As a result, the dukkha faded, and I moved into a neutral phase, where everything felt very neutral. I stayed in this neutral phase for about 30 minutes, where things would occasionally arise, but with a strong sense of acceptance.

During the phase when I was trying to "get out of the way," where I saw the "self" interfering, I didn’t really know how to do it. I could only think of giving up, of "letting go of doing something." I remembered something Bahiya once said about this, but even trying to give up isn’t intellectual. So I kept trying to let things happen, and suddenly the "self" stopped interfering, or at least it lessened. Actually, it decreased, and that’s when I entered a more neutral phase. Still, I don’t know how to consciously repeat this. It’s interesting because it seems like the less we interfere, the faster the mind enters that phase. That’s my hypothesis.
​​​​​​​

"It’s interesting because it seems like the less we interfere, the faster the mind enters that phase. That’s my hypothesis."

The more you want it the less chance it will happen! All we can do is be awake to the ever-changing "this-ness" and see it for what it simply is. Itch is an itch. Unpleasant is unpleasant. Mind image is a mind image. etc ... this and this and this and this ... and in this awake chain of events the mind gets to develop and cycle in stages and states and stuff develops and happens on its own. 

We are only to ever honor the "guests passing through our guesthouse" as they arise and pass away  

Dang, St. Papa dropping some truth bombs

Today I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. It was interesting to observe my mind when my vision started to darken, and my memory became short. I noticed a prejudice toward this and that my mind was beginning to complain, feeling frustrated that it would turn into dullness. I recognized that frustration and felt a desperation to do something, but I simply observed it calmly and refocused on the sensations in my body. The feeling passed. After about a minute, the same thing happened again: the sense that I would enter dullness, followed by desperation. Once again, I told myself to stay calm, returned to the body sensations, and it passed once more.
Gradually, the time between these occurrences began to space out, though the process repeated a few more times. I continued to apply the same intention: calmness and attention to the body’s sensations. Eventually, it didn’t turn into dullness. I was simply relaxed, calm, and serene, observing bodily sensations and noticing other things, like thoughts and comments.
Afterward, I felt a sense of euphoria for having managed to handle this. There were many thoughts and comments celebrating what I had achieved, a mental celebration. I realized this was another trick of Mara. At that point, I began to understand that I needed to progress beyond this euphoria, but my interest waned because I was still absorbed in the feeling of having overcome this difficulty, which is one of the biggest challenges I currently face. This lack of interest led to daydreaming, and I eventually grew tired of letting my mind wander. I returned to observing and noticed a lot of boredom and monotony.
So, I decided to create interest in observing the bodily sensations again. At that moment, I felt a series of jolts and energy moving through my body. It felt like energy was popping up at various points, causing slight involuntary movements. And that was it.
​​​​​​​

In summary, it was interesting to see how the belief we have about something, in this case about dullness, makes us believe that’s what it is and that the experience will be like that (projection). And we always fall into the trap because of it. That's why I always fell into the trap of dullness. It seems to be like that. It's a hypothesis. I'll keep working on this.
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Very good! So I'm on the right path.

I'm starting to see myself manipulating the experience.
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​​​​​​​Thanks Dusko and Shargrol!

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Como ver o "eu" 

Very nice. 

​​​​​​​Andre we will have to learn Portuguese 

https://youtu.be/B6445JAN5-M?si=JOqKY8uc05oZUvlA

Papa just fyi 

Dusko - "This-ness" 

​​​​​​​Great album title 

Bahiya.. O ChatGPT nos salva na comunicação.. hehe

Truth is easy if KISS  


Edit; for those not native to English KISS means "keep it simple stupid" 

I meditated for an hour in the initial phase of control. I was starting to get lost in the things of the mind and decided to anchor myself in the breath. That kept me focused. It was good. It brought me a lot of awareness and concentration, and I was able to notice the characteristics that sometimes lead me to project that I will enter dullness, like dark vision and short memory. However, that didn't turn into dullness.
After that, I could no longer focus on the breath. There was a lot happening in the body, a lot of energy. I paid attention to my posture, with many jolts, adjustments, and attempts to correct my position. Then a desire arose to change my posture, and it wasn't exactly due to pain but more of a discomfort with the position. I ended up deciding to change position, but even then, the discomfort remained. This discomfort in the posture generated other aversions.
I noticed a lot of aversion. It wasn't neutral, nor was there pleasure; it was aversion. I observed and noted this repeatedly. It became a cycle: sometimes neutral, sometimes unpleasant, sometimes pleasant. And I stayed like that until the end of the session.

I meditated for an hour and ten minutes. There were no new experiences today. The focus was on letting the mind flow through different states and observing things as they happened, noting whatever was present, perceiving whatever was possible, and trying to experience things in their raw and naked form. There were moments when everything was clearer and others when it wasn't. I had that initial moment of clarity, then a period of difficulty seeing things, and later I regained some clarity, but I don't think I reached low equanimity. I stayed mostly in the Dark Knight phase. That's it.
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The dark night teaches us to let things happen. It teaches us to allow things to be imperfect. You just gently try and allow everything to happen. If there's pain and discomfort then it's often helpful to notice the space around it, there's space around discomfort, there's space that sensations are happening in, there's space around your body. You don't have to search for it but you'll find it naturally by recognizing your awareness and letting the experience happen. 

​​​​​​​There's no need to try and rush the dark night. It can be difficult but it becomes just another natural part of the process. No need to worry about getting to equanimity. 

agree!

I meditated for an hour and forty minutes. The Dark Night took up a good part of the time today. I was going to stop earlier because I needed to go to the gym, but I decided to continue. I thought, "I’ll do less at the gym, but I need to keep at this to understand it better." So, I stayed for a while longer. I went until about 20 minutes before what I had planned. The phase passed, and things started to improve. I managed to stay more with the raw and bare sensations. It was worth it to see that if you persist, the phase passes. Some days it passes faster; other days it takes longer, but it does pass. With persistence, the mind finds the way. Once again, I realized that it didn’t depend on me; it only depended on time. I gave it more time, and it passed.
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Yeah once you get into the groove of allowing it to happen you can kind of just give it time to do it's thing. Like a stormy day. 

​​​​​​​If the vibe is particularly difficult I will often just lie down and let the pain wash over me for a few hours (days, months, millennia)

​​​​​​​The nice thing about the dark side is that it puts you in a situation where you know you're not in control and that ultimately leads to some very deep practice and eventual insight. 

Very good Bahiya! I feel this is the way.

Later comment:
​​​​​​​This thought that I don't need to get past the Dark Knight, just remain in it, and the transition will happen automatically, helps me a lot. It aligns with everything I've noticed.

Thank you very much.

It can be intense sometimes. You're welcome to share any difficulties here or I often recommend having someone in the "real" world you can share this stuff with. 

​​​​​​​Good work. You're doing great. Keep us updated

Great :-)

Thanks Bahiya!

Collection for dealing with DN (Dark Night)

• Don’t let the teacher leave too soon.
• There’s no need to try to rush the dark night.
• Do not try to fix or manipulate the experience.
• Give up desperately hoping that practice will fix something.

I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I started with the resolution not to let the "teacher" leave and not to rush the exit from the Dark Knight. With this mindset of letting the mind be the mind, I aimed to experience whatever needed to be experienced.
I went through a phase of clarity. Then, the Dark Knight phase arrived. I remained calm, and the Dark Knight was light, with a lot of excitement about what was arising. The most bothersome thing was the pain in my leg. However, I followed Bahiya’s advice and looked at the space around the pain. I had a broad awareness, a peripheral attention, and it was interesting to notice this space surrounding what was happening. I could simply not focus on the pain. I was aware of it, but I set it aside and observed other things.
Then, I began to realize that it was even possible to feel pleasure despite the pain. By focusing on my breath, for instance, which felt pleasant, calm, and tranquil, the pain receded into the background. It was fascinating to discover this sense of space, something I had never managed to do before. Naturally, this also made the Dark Knight phase pass more quickly.
The last twenty minutes were almost entirely neutral. Things arose: small daydreams, sounds, bodily sensations. I had a broad, yet neutral awareness. At times, I felt pleasure, like with the sensations of breathing. It was very interesting to notice that today.
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Great

No trying to make the neutrality happen again !!

No getting attached to space !! 

Keep moving forward with the same protocols. Curiously explore whatever arises. Let reality take it's time. 

Ok Bahiya :-)
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I meditated for 1 hour and 20 minutes. I started with the thought of not putting in any effort, just focusing on being concentrated and aware. Not choosing states, not aiming for any mental state. Experiencing whatever needed to be experienced, in any mental state. Letting the mind follow its course without my interference. And with that, I had a lot of fun today. The initial phase of clarity was very light. Then came the phase of lack of control, but with a great deal of acceptance of it. There were daydreams, comments, pains, but still a lot of acceptance. The interesting thing is that later, pains started to appear from the sitting position, in the leg, and then the acceptance wasn’t as strong. There was a moment when I managed to look at the space between the pains and relaxed. Then the pains increased, and I changed positions, but there was still some discomfort. Toward the end, I was really noticing that: discomfort, pain, and boredom. But I would think: “let the teacher teach, I am here with you.” That helped, made things better, but I knew I needed to experience that, so I stayed until the 1 hour and 20 minutes were up.
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Today, I meditated for an hour and a half. I began with a sincere intention to just follow along, not interfere, not make any effort, not try to get anywhere, and to step aside. This way, the mind developed a lot of interest, actually inspired by a reading I did yesterday, about the concept that we are what we experience. The mind stayed there, observing that semi-verbal dialogue, emotions; in the phase of clarity, I noticed this a lot. Later, I entered the phase of lack of control, and there I noticed some discomfort, although less intense, about not having control and wanting to have it, but it was very manageable. Around an hour and twenty minutes in, when I was thinking of ending the meditation, I decided to stay a little longer because I had regained clarity and felt calm. I wanted to practice a bit more, so I continued. I experienced a sense of low equanimity.

I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I started by reading a post from Shargrol, where he talks about how, at a certain point in his practice, when he was about to enter the stream, he stopped clearly objectifying any mental state. He wasn't looking for answers in any of them, nor did he see them as a problem. Inspired by this, I sat down to experience any state that arose, without rejecting or clinging to any of them.
I began with a clear phase, investigating; everything was very sharp, and I could observe and note many things—a phase of control and pleasure. Then came a phase of lack of control, with a hazy sensation, slight drowsiness, relaxation, and without control. Next, pains emerged in my legs and ankles, so I changed my position, brought in more energy, and exited the phase of lack of control. I regained a sense of control, though not exactly control; it was more like daydreaming.
Then I looked at this state, trying to identify the feeling present, and I realized it was boredom. As soon as I noted the boredom, it dissolved and didn’t return. It seems I entered the relaxation phase again, began noticing various images, and reminded myself not to reject that state. I stayed there, accepting it, observing it with awareness, and ended the session this way.
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Nice! Now do this until you piss yourself off and then observe that as close as you can with acceptance!  
Best wishes Barros! 

Ok Dusko. Thanks! :-)

Today, I meditated for an hour and fifteen minutes. I started with a great sense of lightness, without wanting to achieve anything, just wanting to enjoy myself. That was the feeling. I was very calm and relaxed, and I continued that way, with great clarity, without forcing any noting, maintaining a sense of neutrality. Around thirty minutes in, when my vision usually darkens, I normally feel a bit sleepy, but today I didn’t. I saw my vision darkening, as if it were closing in, and my body started "disappearing," but it was a type of absorption. I was alert, aware, and it didn’t evolve into what usually happens, like daydreams or lucid dreams. None of that happened.

I had a lot of energy and tranquility, and my breathing was light and smooth. My mind wanted to observe the breath, and I stayed with that. At one point, lights began to appear in the center of my forehead, in front of my eyes, just above them. These lights looked like a cloud, like a cloud of fire, with shades of lilac and pink mixed together. They started to absorb me, and I kept observing those lights. I felt energy running through my body along with a sense of pleasure. The thought crossed my mind that this could be a type of jhana, but I let go of that idea, didn’t think too much about it, and just enjoyed the moment.

Before this moment, I noticed an initial attempt for these lights to appear, but they faded away, only to return and stay for almost five minutes. After that, the lights disappeared, but I kept enjoying the moment, staying present with that energy, a neutral sensation leaning towards pleasure, which felt like a deep equanimity until the end of the practice.

Very nice, a good sign of progress. Congratulations. 

(Hehe, I just re-read what I wrote and it's all the same stuff I've been saying, sorry for repeating!)

It's always good to remember that guilt-free desire to enjoy "the pleasures of renunciation" is perfectly fine, it's okay to go into a sit with a sense of innocent joy, not expecting anything and also not worried about anything, that feeling of going on an adventure. After a while, it becomes clear that whatever happens in a sit needs to to happen and we can just enjoy or be challenged by whatever happens.

Remember that what always seems to happen is we make a few steps forward, then fall back and kind of clean up previous states. No big deal. The clothes washing machine has a soap cycle followed by a rinse cycle -- kinda what happens in meditation too. So don't need or expect to hit your cutting edge in a sit every time. 

And remember that the wierd thing about meditation practice is that it tends to take a long time to pass a plateau, but then there is a big jump in progress. Sometimes the hardest thing is not getting frustrated while the mind itself figures things out during the plateau phase, but part of the work is also learning to deal with frustration by letting frustration be, letting in come and go and come and go. Frustration is just a bundle of sensations, ultimately no big deal, unless we make it into a big deal.

Consistent, non-heroic, daily practice!

Very good, Shargrol! Thanks very much! :-)

To me, it didn't seem repetitive. I thought it was quite to the point.

I meditated for 1 hour and 20 minutes. Just like yesterday, I started with the intention to enjoy myself, to let the mind flow and not interfere. With a deep relaxation, I passed through the clarity phase, and in the phase of letting go of control, I once again didn’t feel sleepy or experience lucid dreams. I observed a relaxed mind, dark vision, but very aware. Then, pain started in my leg. I changed position, which brought more energy, and I began to return to the clarity phase. There was a moment of monotony, but as soon as I noticed it, it went away, and a thought arose about what I was hoping to achieve, followed by a feeling of bliss. I spent about 20 minutes in a phase of equanimity, seeing thought as thought, sensation as sensation, and feeling pleasure. A neutral state, leaning toward pleasure. And there was an interesting moment in the phase of letting go of control, when a doubt appeared. Then the thought came: doubt about what? Only someone who desires to achieve something has doubts. And that faded, it went away.
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I remembered that, actually, at the moment I noticed the monotony/boredom, I realized that the mind was imagining, projecting that it would keep extending. It was as if I thought, "Oh no, this is going to happen again. The monotony will go on." But no. I realized it was just a thought and didn’t cling to it. I looked at the experience as it was, and that resolved it. The problem disappeared.
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I meditated for an hour and ten minutes. I started with a neutral, warm mind—I just wanted to sit and practice, without aversion or enthusiasm. I was neutral. The first 40 minutes were filled with daydreams, moments of awareness, a cycle between awareness and drifting off. Then discomfort and pain in my leg began to arise, followed by a slight aversion and a desire to change position. I changed position. I experienced about 15 minutes of discomfort and aversion, but it was mild. Then, I had 10 minutes of pleasurable sensations. My body felt pleasant, my energy was more vibrant, and so was my mind. I noticed many moments when my mind wanted to imagine, predict, and project what would happen next. Whenever I noticed this, I returned to the present moment and experienced the sensations raw and unfiltered.
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I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I started with the intention not to force anything, to let the mind be the mind, to learn, and to accept. In summary, today’s session involved a lot of daydreaming, confusion, and images—many images. But behind all of that, there was a deep sense of acceptance, because I don’t want to force the mind to be aware in an artificial way. I don’t want to use shortcuts; I want to understand the mind as it is. I want to see it naturally, without forcing anything.
With this thought behind it, I felt a strong acceptance of the situation. If the mind didn’t want to turn to consciousness and attention, that was fine; I accepted it as it was. So, whenever I became aware and noticed I was wandering, I felt a great relaxation. I would look, note the body sensations, and return to raw sensations. Then, confusion would come, or images, and I would note them. There was energy, there was awareness. So I had no reason to worry. I knew that today the mind was like that, that it wanted to stay that way, so I allowed it and accepted it.
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I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I began by reading my notes of encouragement on how to face the Dark Night. At first, my mind was very focused; I started noting everything, very aware, with an interest in observing that semi-verbal conversation. But then, around thirty minutes in, I entered the Dark Night: the mind became foggy, confused, with small lucid dreams, and I simply noted, accepting, letting the teacher within teach me. I remembered not to want to rush the exit from the Dark Night, knowing this is important for my learning.
In the last five minutes, my mind simply left that state and returned to clarity without me doing anything. Once again, it came out on its own, without me forcing it. I was just noting regular things. Then a thought came up about how death could happen at any moment. And after that, it coincided with the exit from the Dark Night. I'm not sure if they were connected, but it was an interesting moment.
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Beautiful !! I think you are learning a very important lesson about practice and reality itself. 

Keep it up brother !!!

​​​​​​​Today when I practice, inspired by my good friend Andre, I will sit with the teacher, submit myself to their lessons and learn what I most need to learn. 

Thanks Bahiya :-)

I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I sat down without setting any purpose of reaching anywhere. Without... without desiring to get anywhere. I simply sat down, keeping in mind that it’s persistence, it’s the practice that will take me somewhere. It’s the mind that will take me somewhere; it’s the mind that will teach me, it’s the mind that will learn.
Thus, I went through the initial phase of clarity. Today, it wasn’t very focused, but, with some daydreaming, I was quite conscious, present. I didn’t feel much enthusiasm; it was leaning toward neutral. Then came the Dark Night phase. I saw the mind becoming, the vision becoming... foggy, but still quite aware. Little aversion; the Dark Night was light, with very little aversion. Then, in the final twenty minutes, I regained clarity, noting many things: body sensations, sounds, posture of the spine, jolts, thoughts, comments, inquiries. And seeing everything in a very neutral way. A few moments of pleasure on the in-breath, in body sensations. But overall, everything very neutral.
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I meditated for 1 hour and 20 minutes. I had an initial phase of clarity and control. I was focused and noting well. It felt more neutral. I'm not experiencing excitement or enthusiasm. It's neutral. When I say neutral, it's because I'm not feeling the A&P, that peak. It was neutral. I entered the Dark Night phase. My vision became blurry, my mind was foggy. It had a somber aspect, but I can't quite explain it. I was very aware, detached from it. The sensations were leaning toward neutrality. I saw those strange, confusing things, but I noted them and didn’t get involved. There was a sense of not-self in them. I think that’s it, though I’m not sure how to explain it.
Then the phase passed, and I entered a phase of monotony. I noted that phase. Then came a phase inclined toward pleasure, where I felt a pleasant sensation in the middle of my chest that drew me in. It wasn’t exactly the breath; it was mixed with the breath, but it was centered in my chest. Maybe it was something related to chakras. I don’t know much about chakras, but it seemed like it was something like that, in the middle of my chest. Then it passed... The mind lost interest in it and started observing other things that appeared, but it seemed like it was too lazy to investigate or look deeply. It felt kind of loose. There were some moments of mind-wandering.
Later, I felt a sensation in my forehead that also seemed to draw me in, but the mind was lazy and didn’t want to focus on it. So, I stayed like that, kind of loose, until the end.
In summary, I’ve been letting the mind follow its course. I haven’t been stimulating it much. If it’s not interested, that’s okay. I’m fine with that. There’s a positive side to it, which is feeling a sense of peace.
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Really good man !!

Yesterday, I overdid it while playing with my kids, and my back almost gave out. I felt a lot of pain and needed to rest to improve my back. I ended up not getting up to meditate.
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Hope it feels better soon !!

May you heal soon! 

​​​​​​​Best wishes! 

Thanks Bahiya and Dusko!!!

I meditated for 1 hour and 20 minutes. Today, nothing new. I followed the usual pattern: an initial phase of clarity, followed by a phase of noting with difficulty, foggy. I experienced some lucid dreams. In the dream, I noticed an attempt to resolve or change something. Then came the monotony phase, where I felt restless, itchy, wanting to change position or get up.
I noticed that it was monotony, it was boredom, and then it passed. But, overall, I didn’t try to change things. I have learned and realized the importance of this for progress. I let the “teacher” teach me. I stayed there with it, aware that it is the mind that progresses and that these plateau phases, as Shargrol said, are part of the process. They lay the foundation for progress. So, I stayed there.
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Today I meditated for 1 hour and 10 minutes. My mind was very imaginative, with many images that eventually turned into lucid dreams. I spent most of the time noting this. There wasn’t much variation in this pattern, which started around 30 or 40 minutes into the session and lasted until the end. I would note it, let it happen, and think about letting the "inner teacher" guide me. I felt I needed to accept it.
When I became unconscious, I noticed discomfort and the mind trying to correct the situation, but it wasn’t under my control. Then, when I regained consciousness, I went back to noting. Towards the end of the session, I decided to do metta. At that moment, I clearly noticed when my consciousness was lost. It lasted about 2 seconds, and then I came back. I was able to precisely observe this loss and its duration.
That was my experience today.
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Very nice.

Today I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I started with a drowsy mind. Then, I looked at it and tried to understand why, realizing it was because I had slept less the previous night. But I noticed the drowsiness before thinking about it.
Anyway, I decided not to believe that the drowsiness would lead me anywhere. I kept noting, observing the raw experience. To my surprise, the drowsiness didn’t develop further. During the clarity phase, I kept noting the drowsiness, and when the nebulous phase of difficulty in noting arrived, it didn’t bring lucid dreams. The experience remained simply nebulous. I noted solid things but had difficulty perceiving the impermanence of what arose. I could only notice things as they arose but couldn’t see their ending. It felt like things were overlapping as they emerged, and I kept noting them. There wasn’t enough clarity to see the beginning, middle, and end; it seemed like I could only see the middle.
I continued noting. Toward the end, a phase of boredom and monotony arose. I observed that as well. In the last five minutes, the experience shifted to something neutral. Things became clearer, starting to arise more distinctly. I even felt a bit of pleasure in being there, present, with simple things.
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Today, I meditated for 1 hour and 20 minutes. I'll get straight to the point. Around 30 minutes in, the noting process became very fast. I was very conscious, very alert, and started to notice a lot of confusion. I realized I was a bit disoriented. Quickly, I remembered to stay calm and just note: doubt as doubt, thought as thought, confusion as confusion.
It felt like, in the middle of the storm, I had found shelter, a strong umbrella. I was able to consciously note and experience the confusion. There was a blank in my mind. I looked at the blank, and it was fine. Didn’t know where to look? That was fine too—it was doubt. And I remained calm. Amidst all this, the confusion was being experienced. Soon, it would transform into something else: body sensations, sounds, images, thought as thought. I stayed there, noting calmly, experiencing what needed to be experienced.
I thought, “This is what it means to let the teacher teach.” Because I was truly being a reporter, noting everything, conscious and experiencing. It was clear what I was experiencing, and I had confidence in what I was noting. It felt very good to realize this.
In the last 20 minutes, the confusion and storm passed. I remained there, present in the moment, experiencing more bodily sensations. Thoughts appeared sometimes, but in a very calm way.
In summary, I was able to apply a bit more of effortless practice today.
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I like that reporting matter of fact like a news reporter  

:-)

I meditated for an hour and twenty minutes. I started by observing my mind, which felt a bit dull, somewhat sleepy, and with low energy. I was feeling lazy about noting, struggling to keep up with it, and there seemed to be a lack of curiosity. I think that was it: a lack of curiosity.
From around thirty to sixty minutes, there was pain, the usual kind, but in my leg because of the position. My tolerance for the pain was low, and I had a constant desire to change positions. I changed positions twice, but it didn’t help.
My mind became very imaginative, with many lucid dreams. I stayed there, letting the "teacher" guide me. Towards the end, my tolerance seemed to increase. I stopped being bothered by the pain, but other than that, not much changed. The lucid dreams and the imaginative mind kept appearing frequently.
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Today, I meditated for an hour. Before that, I spent 20 minutes reading a longer post by Shargrol, which I found very interesting. It offered a different perspective that sparked my interest in doing what I need at the moment: learning to observe how my mind reacts to not being present, to not being with the simple, to not being with the raw and naked sensations.
I sat down to meditate with this purpose in mind, focusing on accepting and continuing to work on this, but with gentleness and calmness. It was interesting because I realized that acceptance takes time. It’s a process of letting go, of not forcing things to happen. While meditating, I observed all of this unfolding.
There was a moment when I noticed many things happening: a strong aversion to the sitting posture, the mind wanting to be somewhere else, in another moment, and not in the present. Then I started noticing these movements, realizing how the mind tries, in some way, to avoid the present. All the sensations that arose—jerks, pain, discomfort—were linked to this attempt to change the situation. I simply observed and accepted them, even though it wasn’t pleasant. I understood that this is the work I need to do: just observe and accept.
Toward the end, I started to relax and gain more clarity. I came out of that nebulous state and began to feel more comfortable. The posture, for instance, adjusted itself gradually, and the pain decreased. I accepted things as they were, without resistance.
When the timer marked an hour, I finished the meditation, but it was very interesting to observe this process of acceptance.

The post I read was this:
https://shargrolpostscompilation.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html#notmoreabsortionormoreclarity

This reading was very encouraging. I need to keep reading your texts. Thank you very much, Shargrol!

Today, I meditated for an hour with a lot of lightness. I started the session, and during the clarity phase, I felt a lot of pleasure. Then came the phase of lack of control, but it wasn’t very intense. There were daydreams, confusion, and moments of blankness, but without aversion. It was wonderful to notice what was happening. I had the calmness to wait for it to pass.
A sense of pleasure, peace, and bliss began to arise even in this situation. I realized that, for a long time, I held an ideal of meditation — an idea of how it should be, a meditation where nothing happened. And I realized that this isn’t necessary. It is possible to feel peace and pleasure even amidst various mental states, with confusion, blankness, lack of memory, or daydreams.
It was very rewarding to see this. In the end, clarity returned, and I simply enjoyed the moment — enjoying the simple, raw sensations. There were still some mental comments, but I felt a deep peace. The breathing was light and shallow, very pleasant.
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Yesterday, I went to a party, stayed up late, and couldn't wake up early to practice.

I hope you had a good party!  

Thanks :-)

The party was nice, but I go more for my wife than for myself.

I felt unwell last night due to a stomach virus and once again couldn't get up to practice.

May you get well soon! Bets wishes! 

Thanks Dusko! Today I am better.

Today, I did a one-and-a-half-hour practice. Before sitting down, I noticed that my energy was good. Yesterday, however, I had no energy. I felt lazy, had body aches, and lacked motivation. Today, the energy returned, and I felt well overall, despite some stomach pain. So, I decided to practice.
I sat down with no purpose of reaching any particular goal, only with the intention to practice, to be present, and to experience whatever needed to be experienced. My aim was to fully experience the present moment and learn from it. At the beginning, I went through a phase of clarity and tranquility, in a more neutral state.
Then came a phase of lack of control. I was semi-conscious at times. But I didn’t mind, because I was able to quickly regain awareness and notice what was happening. It felt like I was alternating rapidly between conscious and unconscious states.
I realized that, when I came back to awareness, I was often trying to fix something — an illusion, a discomfort. At one point, I clearly noticed that my effort to fix it wasn’t working. It was interesting to observe this, because, as soon as I became aware of it, I simply let it go. And then, it passed.
That’s how my practice unfolded today.

I meditated for one hour and twenty minutes. I started with the intention of experiencing whatever I needed to experience, with a lot of lightness. Without anticipating or desiring to achieve anything, I just wanted to be in the moment, without much expectation. With this sense of lightness, my mind felt emptied. I was noting a lot, with everything very clear.
There was this initial phase of clarity, control, and ease in noting. Then, around thirty minutes in, a phase of lack of control and semi-consciousness emerged, alternating quickly between awareness and unawareness, with lucid dreams. This phase of lack of control and semi-consciousness lasted until the end of the practice.
During the moments of awareness, I noted what I was seeing or imagining. It was all imagination. Many times, it felt like I was trying to correct something, but there was no aversion to it. I didn’t feel confusion or notice any dukkha. There may have been some discomfort at specific moments, but overall, I didn’t perceive significant dukkha or distress. I had a great sense of acceptance during this phase because the thought kept coming to me that I needed to experience it, that I needed to go through it. So, I just noted and stayed with it.
The practice continued like this until the end, without much change. There were two distinct moments: the moment of clarity and the moment of semi-consciousness.
​​​​​​​
In summary, I didn't try to force or change the situation.

I'm sure this is already happening in your sits, but maybe try looking at the meditation and notice _3_ kinds of "mindstates" or views: 1) clarity view, 2) semi-conscious view but then also look for 3) pure aware/watching/knowing view.

The watching/knowing view is that in-between state that flashes for a moment when you notice that you are aware/watching/knowing itself. Pure awareness/watching/knowing state doesn't persist, but some sits will have more flashes than others. It's beyond your control, but worth noticing and it's probably already happening in your sits.

Most of the time when I come back from the unconscious state, I have this moment of pure awareness/observing/knowing. I'll note more to it from now on.

​​​​​​​Thank you so much, Shargrol!

I meditated for one hour and twenty minutes. I started with the intention of noticing more moments of pure awareness, being conscious of myself, observing awareness itself, and returning to the present moment—whether coming from unconsciousness or a state of self-awareness. In the beginning, during moments of clarity, I noticed that these moments of pure awareness separated what I was experiencing. For example, I would notice that I was hearing something, and there was a clear separation: I was aware of something, but distinct from what was happening. This was very evident. I could observe the object being experienced and that part of me which is aware of the object.
Because I was interested and curious about observing this dynamic, I experienced many moments of pure awareness. I believe this is what Shargrol suggested observing. However, moments of doubt also arose: "Is this what he asked me to notice?" When that happened, I would simply observe the doubt and let it pass. Because of this focus, the phase of unconsciousness took longer to arrive. In fact, it did appear, but in a way that was much more conscious than unconscious.
Toward the end of the practice, I noticed greater relaxation and fewer moments of pure awareness. These moments began to decrease, but the alternation between awareness and unconsciousness was quick and didn’t last long.
In the end, I noticed the presence of dukkha as I returned to a more conscious state. I saw the mind trying to correct something, trying to adjust the experience.
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Nice, yeah what I'm pointing at is something very accessible to a meditator with a consistent practice. The reason I mention it is that there is a kind of looseness in EQ that really helps SE (as you already know). And this looseness comes from trusting how the mind is aware, regardless of what is in attention. Attention can move around to different objects, and it can become very clear and precise, it can become very vague and confused... but that's the attention. There is a greater awareness that seems to "hold" all of this.

The interesting thing is while awareness seems to be the answer, and can be a good thing to cultivate, it actually can turn into a dead end. As you get familiar with the mostly-centerless state of awareness, you'll notice there is  still a tiny bit of the basic "self orientation" of "I am here and experience is there". There is still the tinyest sense of being a-self-that-is-aware. So Stream Entry somehow goes beyond even awareness(!)

When EQ deepens and the meditator can allow things to be very loose, there can  be moments of a "third" view --- seeing where attention goes, seeing how attention is held within awareness... and somehow something seems to be aware of awareness (?!?)  This is a very paradoxical and odd experience, but it hints as a way that the mind can go beyond awareness too.

As always, there is nothing you need to force beyond staying playfully curious about the nature of mind. Triyng  to get rid of the self or try to get rid of the centerpoint just creates another self and another centerpoint. So it really just involve getting lucky. But practice makes you lucky  The mind itself figures this out and it's not like regular figuring out --- the mind just jumps to nirvana.  It jumps from an awareness of something to an "experience" of nothing.

(By the way, this thread kinda blows up my phone/computer -- it might be getting too long for this not-so-awesome software.)

Yes, this thread is too large now. Time to start a new one!

Thanks, Andre.

Yes. I will open. Thanks! :-)

I read it and want to respond better later. For now, thank you very much, Shargrol. It is extremely motivating to be guided under your care.

Freezing this topic now. The continuation can be found here:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/32953936

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