RE: mappo mapping - Discussion
RE: mappo mapping
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 7/27/24 3:18 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 7/27/24 3:18 PM
mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
"The best thing to do is go as far out as you can get... what you regard as 'too far'--and when others follow, as they will, move on."
- Frank Lloyd Wright, 'The Natural House'.
Frank lloyd wright’s book on the natural house includes a chapter on “where to build.” He suggests that you live as far from “the city” as possible. “How close you live to the city is how much of a slave you are.”
Similarly, the buddha has a parable in the majjhima nikaya about deer. Like the parable of the horses, it speaks of disciples at different levels of spiritual possibility. There are the deer who live near farmlands, and are destroyed by farmers. There are the deer who live in the upland meadows, and they are predated on by hunters. Then there are the deer who live across the mountains, who live in peace and happiness, untroubled by humans.
The buddha famously provided advice and spiritual guidance for people at various levels of spiritual development.
In my view these “levels” are grossly misunderstood to be some sort of ladder for spiritual competitors to climb, that there are right ways and wrong ways, and some are more right than others. But what is “right” for the individual is unique to each. Better embrace what is right for you than higher steps that are inaccessible at one’s own level. Or lower steps that are promoted by social conditioning. Find your own level.
In western buddhism , we live in the city, we eat meat, we work for a living, we struggle in traffic, we seek expensive and consumptive entertainments, we consume intoxicants, we burn fossil fuels extravagantly and generally are in full career destroying the planet and any future for humanity’s civilization, and incidentally the dharma.
At the same time we like to think we are practicing love and compassion. This is not as hypocritical as it sounds. We are genuinely evolved top predators, far more vicious than sharks or tigers, and compassion comes with a toothy smile. And with eight billion neighbors, living in cities can be hard to escape. I take it as a given each of us is dong the best they can.
Where misunderstanding arises most poignantly and relevantly here, is in people who live in communities with those who do not seek enlightenment and are attempting to negotiate a path designed for much more pure conditions of life. The “street wise” “arhat” is a contradiction in terms.
The way of the householder is different from that of a monk. The monk lives a life in which compassion for all sentient beings may be sensibly practiced. The householder simply does not.
A farmer must kill weeds and pests to grow crops. The farmer’s children are nourished, cherished and protected. Crops are harvested and dedicated to the benefit of the farmer and the community. And this includes the monks, who subsist on alms. The law of nature, of the jungle, is kept by all. The one pearl nourishes all beings.
What this implies for western dharma enthusiasts (I can’t call them buddhists, with no notion of the precepts) is that attempting to end anger in oneself is inappropriate for city dwellers and kmart shoppers and the like. Normal life involves construction and destruction.
“All the time I pray to Buddha I keep on killing mosquitoes."
~issa
We need this kind of honesty with ourselves. When we practice working on ourselves we can work with our anger, recognize that the emotion itself, like pain, fear and jealousy, to name a few, is a human quality that needs to be worked with; a feature, not a bug.
People don’t want to learn how to eat right, they want to lose weight. The symptom is attacked, but even success with the symptom does not indicate better health, as it is learning to eat right that is the essence. People would like to eliminate anger without considering why it is there and what it is for. They are conditioned to believe anger is bad in all cases and is to be eliminated, along with stress. Never mind that this is impossible and a recipe for failure.
What is the goal, then, for the householder who seeks the dharma? A natural predator with offspring who naturally wants to preserve and protect their normal lives and provide them with all the essentials and delights we want for those we love.
Do justice, love mercy, walk humbly, of course. Be a good farmer, pay your dues, respect your neighbors. The metaxy of useful and comforting social values.
We want liberation, freedom. We find it in authenticity, genuineness, sincerity, self-respect.
Be yourself.
I’ll Stand by You
(the pretenders)
[Verse 1]
Oh, why you look so sad?
Tears are in your eyes
Come on and come to me now
Don't be ashamed to cry
Let me see you through
'Cause I've seen the dark side too
[Pre-Chorus]
When the night falls on you
You don't know what to do
Nothin' you confess, could make me love you less
[Chorus]
I'll stand by you, I'll stand by you
Won't let nobody hurt you
I'll stand by you
[Verse 2]
So if you're mad, get mad
Don't hold it all inside
Come on and talk to me now
Hey, what you got to hide?
I get angry too
Well I'm a lot like you
[Chorus]
I'll stand by you, I'll stand by you
Won't let nobody hurt you
I'll stand by you
Take me in, into your darkest hour
And I'll never desert you
I'll stand by you
- Frank Lloyd Wright, 'The Natural House'.
Frank lloyd wright’s book on the natural house includes a chapter on “where to build.” He suggests that you live as far from “the city” as possible. “How close you live to the city is how much of a slave you are.”
Similarly, the buddha has a parable in the majjhima nikaya about deer. Like the parable of the horses, it speaks of disciples at different levels of spiritual possibility. There are the deer who live near farmlands, and are destroyed by farmers. There are the deer who live in the upland meadows, and they are predated on by hunters. Then there are the deer who live across the mountains, who live in peace and happiness, untroubled by humans.
The buddha famously provided advice and spiritual guidance for people at various levels of spiritual development.
In my view these “levels” are grossly misunderstood to be some sort of ladder for spiritual competitors to climb, that there are right ways and wrong ways, and some are more right than others. But what is “right” for the individual is unique to each. Better embrace what is right for you than higher steps that are inaccessible at one’s own level. Or lower steps that are promoted by social conditioning. Find your own level.
In western buddhism , we live in the city, we eat meat, we work for a living, we struggle in traffic, we seek expensive and consumptive entertainments, we consume intoxicants, we burn fossil fuels extravagantly and generally are in full career destroying the planet and any future for humanity’s civilization, and incidentally the dharma.
At the same time we like to think we are practicing love and compassion. This is not as hypocritical as it sounds. We are genuinely evolved top predators, far more vicious than sharks or tigers, and compassion comes with a toothy smile. And with eight billion neighbors, living in cities can be hard to escape. I take it as a given each of us is dong the best they can.
Where misunderstanding arises most poignantly and relevantly here, is in people who live in communities with those who do not seek enlightenment and are attempting to negotiate a path designed for much more pure conditions of life. The “street wise” “arhat” is a contradiction in terms.
The way of the householder is different from that of a monk. The monk lives a life in which compassion for all sentient beings may be sensibly practiced. The householder simply does not.
A farmer must kill weeds and pests to grow crops. The farmer’s children are nourished, cherished and protected. Crops are harvested and dedicated to the benefit of the farmer and the community. And this includes the monks, who subsist on alms. The law of nature, of the jungle, is kept by all. The one pearl nourishes all beings.
What this implies for western dharma enthusiasts (I can’t call them buddhists, with no notion of the precepts) is that attempting to end anger in oneself is inappropriate for city dwellers and kmart shoppers and the like. Normal life involves construction and destruction.
“All the time I pray to Buddha I keep on killing mosquitoes."
~issa
We need this kind of honesty with ourselves. When we practice working on ourselves we can work with our anger, recognize that the emotion itself, like pain, fear and jealousy, to name a few, is a human quality that needs to be worked with; a feature, not a bug.
People don’t want to learn how to eat right, they want to lose weight. The symptom is attacked, but even success with the symptom does not indicate better health, as it is learning to eat right that is the essence. People would like to eliminate anger without considering why it is there and what it is for. They are conditioned to believe anger is bad in all cases and is to be eliminated, along with stress. Never mind that this is impossible and a recipe for failure.
What is the goal, then, for the householder who seeks the dharma? A natural predator with offspring who naturally wants to preserve and protect their normal lives and provide them with all the essentials and delights we want for those we love.
Do justice, love mercy, walk humbly, of course. Be a good farmer, pay your dues, respect your neighbors. The metaxy of useful and comforting social values.
We want liberation, freedom. We find it in authenticity, genuineness, sincerity, self-respect.
Be yourself.
I’ll Stand by You
(the pretenders)
[Verse 1]
Oh, why you look so sad?
Tears are in your eyes
Come on and come to me now
Don't be ashamed to cry
Let me see you through
'Cause I've seen the dark side too
[Pre-Chorus]
When the night falls on you
You don't know what to do
Nothin' you confess, could make me love you less
[Chorus]
I'll stand by you, I'll stand by you
Won't let nobody hurt you
I'll stand by you
[Verse 2]
So if you're mad, get mad
Don't hold it all inside
Come on and talk to me now
Hey, what you got to hide?
I get angry too
Well I'm a lot like you
[Chorus]
I'll stand by you, I'll stand by you
Won't let nobody hurt you
I'll stand by you
Take me in, into your darkest hour
And I'll never desert you
I'll stand by you
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 7/28/24 1:05 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 7/28/24 1:05 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from the discourses of rumi, trans arberry...
Someone asked: “When we do a good deed, if we have hopes and expectations of a good reward from God, does that harm us?”
Rumi answered: By God, we must always have hope. Faith, itself, consists of fear and hope. Someone once asked me, “Hope itself is good, but what is this fear?” I said, “Show me a fear without hope, or a hope without fear. The two are inseparable.” For example, a farmer plants wheat. Naturally he hopes that wheat will grow. At the same time he is afraid some blight or drought may destroy it. So, there is no hope without fear, or fear without hope.
Now, when we hope expectantly for a reward, we will surely work with greater effort. Expectation becomes our wings, and the stronger our wings the farther the flight. If, on the other hand we lose hope, we become lazy and of no value to anyone. A sick person will take bitter medicine and give up ten sweet pleasures, but if
they have no hope for health, why would they endure this?
Someone asked: “When we do a good deed, if we have hopes and expectations of a good reward from God, does that harm us?”
Rumi answered: By God, we must always have hope. Faith, itself, consists of fear and hope. Someone once asked me, “Hope itself is good, but what is this fear?” I said, “Show me a fear without hope, or a hope without fear. The two are inseparable.” For example, a farmer plants wheat. Naturally he hopes that wheat will grow. At the same time he is afraid some blight or drought may destroy it. So, there is no hope without fear, or fear without hope.
Now, when we hope expectantly for a reward, we will surely work with greater effort. Expectation becomes our wings, and the stronger our wings the farther the flight. If, on the other hand we lose hope, we become lazy and of no value to anyone. A sick person will take bitter medicine and give up ten sweet pleasures, but if
they have no hope for health, why would they endure this?
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 8/4/24 1:37 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/4/24 1:37 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
a bird in a cave
may be taken
by a shot in the dark
the archery master
fires blindfolded
into the ocean
bullseye!
may be taken
by a shot in the dark
the archery master
fires blindfolded
into the ocean
bullseye!
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 8/4/24 1:43 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/4/24 1:43 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 4 Months ago at 8/4/24 3:03 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/4/24 2:55 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from 6.92 Chan Master Yuezhou Dazhu Huihai (Daishu Ekai)
Records of the Transmission of the Lamp : Volume 2 (Books 4-9), The Early Masters.
Translated by Randolph S. Whitfield, 2015
The master continued, ‘A sutra says, “Seeing me through form, seeking me through hearing, such a one goes contrary to the Way and cannot see the Tathāgata.” So tell me, Worthy One, what is the Tathāgata?'
‘I am still in the dark regarding this,' answered the monk.
‘Having never once been awakened, what is it that is said to be still in the dark?' asked the master.
‘May the master please explain,' the monk replied.
‘The venerable monk has lectured more than twenty times and still does not know the meaning of Tathāgata!'
The monk bowed again and said, ‘Would that the master deign explain it.'
The master said, ‘The Tathāgata is the ultimate reality of all dharmas. How could this be forgotten?'
‘It is the ultimate reality of all dharmas', repeated the monk.
‘Oh, Venerable Monk!' said the master, ‘is this so or is it not so?'
‘The sutra clearly affirms it, so how could it not be so?' countered the monk. ‘Is the venerable monk not also thus?' asked the master.
‘Yes,' said the monk.
‘And trees and stones, are they not thus?' asked the master.
‘Yes,' came the reply.
‘And is not the thusness of the venerable monk and the thusness of trees and stones the same?' asked the master.
‘They are not two,' replied the monk.
‘Then what is the difference between the venerable monk and trees and stones?' asked the master.
The monk had no reply. After a pause he then asked, ‘How is the Great Nirvā obtained?'
‘Do not make karma leading to birth and death,' replied the master.
‘What is the karma of birth and death?' asked the monk.
‘Seeking for Great Nirvā is the karma of birth and death. Rejecting defilements and grasping purity is the karma of birth and death. To have obtained, to have experienced, is the karma of birth and death. Not to have renounced the way of restraint is the karma of birth and death,' said the master.
‘How does one obtain liberation?' asked the monk.
‘From the beginning there is no bondage, so there is no use in searching for liberation. Direct functioning is the peerless,' said the master.
‘A Chan master such as this is truly said to be rare!' The monk bowed and departed.
How to put this luminous dialog into contemporary language? How to make the leap from identification to freedom?
Karma is what happens when there is desire and aversion. Karma always creates more karma, action leads to more action. It is the cessation of action as a result of sudden enlightenment that constitutes awakening.
What ceases action? What, not having been awakened, is still in the dark? The tathagata is “the thus come one.” Who is it who thus comes?
The master said, ‘The Tathāgata is the ultimate reality of all dharmas. How could this be forgotten?'
‘It is the ultimate reality of all dharmas', repeated the monk.
‘Oh, Venerable Monk!' said the master, ‘is this so or is it not so?'
‘The sutra clearly affirms it, so how could it not be so?' countered the monk. ‘Is the venerable monk not also thus?' asked the master.
‘Yes,' said the monk.
‘And trees and stones, are they not thus?' asked the master.
‘Yes,' came the reply.
‘And is not the thusness of the venerable monk and the thusness of trees and stones the same?' asked the master.
‘They are not two,' replied the monk.
‘Then what is the difference between the venerable monk and trees and stones?' asked the master.
This is the nature of the non dual, that there is no difference between a sentient being and the rocks and stones. This is the central insight of existentialism, of phenomenology, of spirituality and mysticism. All religions eventually lead to the One.
The world is existence. Reality is the tathagata. Existence is all of the dharmas. Reality is the void. The dharmas are all imaginary, as is existence. The void is real.
The void, reality, cannot be perceived or experienced. All perception and experience is of the imaginary. We perceive egos, selves, personalities and lives, all imaginary. The diamond sutra assures us there are no sentient beings to save. No beings at all, Only This, the one pearl. All comes thus from the void, thus is “thus come.”
from the tao the ching, chapter five, trans jonathan star:
The universe is like a bellows
It stays empty yet is never exhausted
It gives out yet always brings forth more
“The void” is the nature of consciousness itself. Consciousness is regarded by phenomenology as directed towards objects, always associated with objects, and we regard the objects as what is significant. But only the consciousness itself is truly real, the objects are all imaginary. William blake said, “anything that can be believed is an image of truth.” Even if we “see through a glass darkly” we are seeing something of truth, something that may be interpreted and used for world creation. The more predictable this world we have created becomes, the more credence we give it, the more “real” it seems to us. Yet we must always measure our world against that of the other, nip and tuck, cut and trim. Friends and enemies, right and wrong, gain and loss; these make up the world, the rest is tools and furniture.
This world is samsara, the passions. A reflection of our desires and aversions. This is the key to awakening, to sudden enlightenment, to realize that the world we think of as real is only a reflection in the great mirror of consciousness. The trick is to see the mirror and not be drawn in to the dramas of the reflections. See the screen, the lights, the actors, and not be sucked into the movie. “Play hamlet but don’t be hamlet.” (A hamlet is a little ham.)
Consciousness is transcendent. It exists as a social trait, we are the borg group mind. As individuals we have no significance, no possibility of an individual will not shaped by group mind. Each of us is an expression of the whole and nothing else. The ego is a delusion.
Try think of consciousness as a single all-seeing eye. In front of this eye is the world, behind is the void. You are the world; you are the void. At the interface of void and world we have world creation, the irruption of spirit into “matter.”
Consciousness is like a giant firehose which can spray existence onto reality and is spraying continually. Most of us live attenuated lives because the spray is too powerful, world creation too much responsibility. So we turn down the spigot to a trickle, when we could be pumping out a thousand gallons a second. Having faith and trust that the void is trustworthy and beneficent.
Each of us is all of us. Everything is nothing. Nobody is anybody.
plato, from the seventh letter,
Thus much at least, I can say about all writers, past or future, who say they know the things to which I devote myself, whether by hearing the teaching of me or of others, or by their own discoveries-that according to my view it is not possible for them to have any real skill in the matter. There neither is nor ever will be a treatise of mine on the subject. For it does not admit of exposition like other branches of knowledge; but after much converse about the matter itself and a life lived together, suddenly a light, as it were, is kindled in one soul by a flame that leaps to it from another, and thereafter sustains itself. Yet this much I know-that if the things were written or put into words, it would be done best by me, and that, if they were written badly, I should be the person most pained. Again, if they had appeared to me to admit adequately of writing and exposition, what task in life could I have performed nobler than this, to write what is of great service to mankind and to bring the nature of things into the light for all to see? But I do not think it a good thing for men that there should be a disquisition, as it is called, on this topic-except for some few, who are able with a little teaching to find it out for themselves. As for the rest, it would fill some of them quite illogically with a mistaken feeling of contempt, and others with lofty and vain-glorious expectations, as though they had learnt something high and mighty.
.
Records of the Transmission of the Lamp : Volume 2 (Books 4-9), The Early Masters.
Translated by Randolph S. Whitfield, 2015
The master continued, ‘A sutra says, “Seeing me through form, seeking me through hearing, such a one goes contrary to the Way and cannot see the Tathāgata.” So tell me, Worthy One, what is the Tathāgata?'
‘I am still in the dark regarding this,' answered the monk.
‘Having never once been awakened, what is it that is said to be still in the dark?' asked the master.
‘May the master please explain,' the monk replied.
‘The venerable monk has lectured more than twenty times and still does not know the meaning of Tathāgata!'
The monk bowed again and said, ‘Would that the master deign explain it.'
The master said, ‘The Tathāgata is the ultimate reality of all dharmas. How could this be forgotten?'
‘It is the ultimate reality of all dharmas', repeated the monk.
‘Oh, Venerable Monk!' said the master, ‘is this so or is it not so?'
‘The sutra clearly affirms it, so how could it not be so?' countered the monk. ‘Is the venerable monk not also thus?' asked the master.
‘Yes,' said the monk.
‘And trees and stones, are they not thus?' asked the master.
‘Yes,' came the reply.
‘And is not the thusness of the venerable monk and the thusness of trees and stones the same?' asked the master.
‘They are not two,' replied the monk.
‘Then what is the difference between the venerable monk and trees and stones?' asked the master.
The monk had no reply. After a pause he then asked, ‘How is the Great Nirvā obtained?'
‘Do not make karma leading to birth and death,' replied the master.
‘What is the karma of birth and death?' asked the monk.
‘Seeking for Great Nirvā is the karma of birth and death. Rejecting defilements and grasping purity is the karma of birth and death. To have obtained, to have experienced, is the karma of birth and death. Not to have renounced the way of restraint is the karma of birth and death,' said the master.
‘How does one obtain liberation?' asked the monk.
‘From the beginning there is no bondage, so there is no use in searching for liberation. Direct functioning is the peerless,' said the master.
‘A Chan master such as this is truly said to be rare!' The monk bowed and departed.
How to put this luminous dialog into contemporary language? How to make the leap from identification to freedom?
Karma is what happens when there is desire and aversion. Karma always creates more karma, action leads to more action. It is the cessation of action as a result of sudden enlightenment that constitutes awakening.
What ceases action? What, not having been awakened, is still in the dark? The tathagata is “the thus come one.” Who is it who thus comes?
The master said, ‘The Tathāgata is the ultimate reality of all dharmas. How could this be forgotten?'
‘It is the ultimate reality of all dharmas', repeated the monk.
‘Oh, Venerable Monk!' said the master, ‘is this so or is it not so?'
‘The sutra clearly affirms it, so how could it not be so?' countered the monk. ‘Is the venerable monk not also thus?' asked the master.
‘Yes,' said the monk.
‘And trees and stones, are they not thus?' asked the master.
‘Yes,' came the reply.
‘And is not the thusness of the venerable monk and the thusness of trees and stones the same?' asked the master.
‘They are not two,' replied the monk.
‘Then what is the difference between the venerable monk and trees and stones?' asked the master.
This is the nature of the non dual, that there is no difference between a sentient being and the rocks and stones. This is the central insight of existentialism, of phenomenology, of spirituality and mysticism. All religions eventually lead to the One.
The world is existence. Reality is the tathagata. Existence is all of the dharmas. Reality is the void. The dharmas are all imaginary, as is existence. The void is real.
The void, reality, cannot be perceived or experienced. All perception and experience is of the imaginary. We perceive egos, selves, personalities and lives, all imaginary. The diamond sutra assures us there are no sentient beings to save. No beings at all, Only This, the one pearl. All comes thus from the void, thus is “thus come.”
from the tao the ching, chapter five, trans jonathan star:
The universe is like a bellows
It stays empty yet is never exhausted
It gives out yet always brings forth more
“The void” is the nature of consciousness itself. Consciousness is regarded by phenomenology as directed towards objects, always associated with objects, and we regard the objects as what is significant. But only the consciousness itself is truly real, the objects are all imaginary. William blake said, “anything that can be believed is an image of truth.” Even if we “see through a glass darkly” we are seeing something of truth, something that may be interpreted and used for world creation. The more predictable this world we have created becomes, the more credence we give it, the more “real” it seems to us. Yet we must always measure our world against that of the other, nip and tuck, cut and trim. Friends and enemies, right and wrong, gain and loss; these make up the world, the rest is tools and furniture.
This world is samsara, the passions. A reflection of our desires and aversions. This is the key to awakening, to sudden enlightenment, to realize that the world we think of as real is only a reflection in the great mirror of consciousness. The trick is to see the mirror and not be drawn in to the dramas of the reflections. See the screen, the lights, the actors, and not be sucked into the movie. “Play hamlet but don’t be hamlet.” (A hamlet is a little ham.)
Consciousness is transcendent. It exists as a social trait, we are the borg group mind. As individuals we have no significance, no possibility of an individual will not shaped by group mind. Each of us is an expression of the whole and nothing else. The ego is a delusion.
Try think of consciousness as a single all-seeing eye. In front of this eye is the world, behind is the void. You are the world; you are the void. At the interface of void and world we have world creation, the irruption of spirit into “matter.”
Consciousness is like a giant firehose which can spray existence onto reality and is spraying continually. Most of us live attenuated lives because the spray is too powerful, world creation too much responsibility. So we turn down the spigot to a trickle, when we could be pumping out a thousand gallons a second. Having faith and trust that the void is trustworthy and beneficent.
Each of us is all of us. Everything is nothing. Nobody is anybody.
plato, from the seventh letter,
Thus much at least, I can say about all writers, past or future, who say they know the things to which I devote myself, whether by hearing the teaching of me or of others, or by their own discoveries-that according to my view it is not possible for them to have any real skill in the matter. There neither is nor ever will be a treatise of mine on the subject. For it does not admit of exposition like other branches of knowledge; but after much converse about the matter itself and a life lived together, suddenly a light, as it were, is kindled in one soul by a flame that leaps to it from another, and thereafter sustains itself. Yet this much I know-that if the things were written or put into words, it would be done best by me, and that, if they were written badly, I should be the person most pained. Again, if they had appeared to me to admit adequately of writing and exposition, what task in life could I have performed nobler than this, to write what is of great service to mankind and to bring the nature of things into the light for all to see? But I do not think it a good thing for men that there should be a disquisition, as it is called, on this topic-except for some few, who are able with a little teaching to find it out for themselves. As for the rest, it would fill some of them quite illogically with a mistaken feeling of contempt, and others with lofty and vain-glorious expectations, as though they had learnt something high and mighty.
.
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 8/9/24 5:19 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/9/24 5:19 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Excerpt From
The Essential Rumi
Coleman Barks
THE USES OF FEAR
A donkey turning a millstone is not trying
to press oil from sesame seed.
He’s fleeing the blow just struck
and hoping to avoid the next.
For the same reason, the ox takes a load
of baggage wherever you want him to.
Shopkeepers work for themselves,
not for the flow of communal exchange.
We all look to ease our pain,
and this keeps civilization moving along.
God made fear the architect here.
Fear keeps us working near the ark.
There have been many soul-killing floods,
many arks, and many Noahs.
Some human beings are safe havens.
Be companions with them.
Others may seem to be friends,
but they’re really consuming your essence
like donkeys lapping sherbet.
Detach from them and feel flexibility return.
The inner moisture that lets you bend
into a basket handle is a quickening inside
that no one is ever afraid of.
Sometimes, though, it is fear
that brings you to the presence.
The Essential Rumi
Coleman Barks
THE USES OF FEAR
A donkey turning a millstone is not trying
to press oil from sesame seed.
He’s fleeing the blow just struck
and hoping to avoid the next.
For the same reason, the ox takes a load
of baggage wherever you want him to.
Shopkeepers work for themselves,
not for the flow of communal exchange.
We all look to ease our pain,
and this keeps civilization moving along.
God made fear the architect here.
Fear keeps us working near the ark.
There have been many soul-killing floods,
many arks, and many Noahs.
Some human beings are safe havens.
Be companions with them.
Others may seem to be friends,
but they’re really consuming your essence
like donkeys lapping sherbet.
Detach from them and feel flexibility return.
The inner moisture that lets you bend
into a basket handle is a quickening inside
that no one is ever afraid of.
Sometimes, though, it is fear
that brings you to the presence.
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 8/9/24 12:12 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/9/24 12:12 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsLook at every animal from the gnat to the elephant:
they all are God’s family
and dependent on Him for their nourishment.
What a nourisher is God!
All these griefs within our hearts
arise from the smoke and dust
of our existence and vain desires.
Excerpt From
Rumi
Camille Adams Helminski
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 8/10/24 1:55 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/10/24 1:55 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
In this moment, I am entwined
in the vine of love
In this moment I have abandoned care
for consequence
Oh humans, I’m no longer one of you
The bravest men won’t dare come near my heart
Mad men run away at the sight of my passion
I make love to death
Nothingness is my companion
Even cleverness is upset with me
It tried to frighten me, it misjudged its opponent
I accept I am a prisoner of this world
But I am here, the prison is there
Tell me, whose belongings have I stolen?
Come live where I reside
My home is beyond In o Aan
What need have I for a mind?
I have destroyed my
thoughts and burnt my worries
Something Other has my attention
What need have I for a heart?
Blood of the Beloved
is running through my veins
I am life itself
Rumi
in the vine of love
In this moment I have abandoned care
for consequence
Oh humans, I’m no longer one of you
The bravest men won’t dare come near my heart
Mad men run away at the sight of my passion
I make love to death
Nothingness is my companion
Even cleverness is upset with me
It tried to frighten me, it misjudged its opponent
I accept I am a prisoner of this world
But I am here, the prison is there
Tell me, whose belongings have I stolen?
Come live where I reside
My home is beyond In o Aan
What need have I for a mind?
I have destroyed my
thoughts and burnt my worries
Something Other has my attention
What need have I for a heart?
Blood of the Beloved
is running through my veins
I am life itself
Rumi
Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago at 8/10/24 4:01 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
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I've been watching robert sapolsky interviewed on his insistence there is no freewill and have been sending him these posts...
Neuroscientist: How to Escape the Rat Race | Robert Sapolsky
Light Watkins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNMLlX7tyQk
from
The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi
in His Own Words
Edited by Arthur Osborne
6th Edition 1993
Chapter II
From Theory to Practice
As was shown in the previous chapter, the theory that the Maharshi taught was intended only to serve as a basis for practice. However, the demand for practice brought in another branch of theory, that of free-will or predestination, since people were not lacking who asked why they should make any effort if everything was predestined, or if all men returned to their Source in any case.
A visitor from Bengal said: Shankara says that we are all free, not bound, and that we shall all return to God from whom we came, like sparks from a fire. If that is so, why should we not commit all sorts of sins?
Bhagavan's reply showed him that that cannot be the point of view of the ego.
B: It is true that we are not bound. That is to say, the real Self has no bondage. And it is true that you will eventually return to your Source. But meanwhile, if you commit sins as you call them, you have to face the consequences. You cannot escape them. If a man beats you, can you say: 'I am free. I am not affected by the beating and feel no pain. Let him continue beating'? If you can really feel that, then you can do what you like, but what is the use of just saying in words that you are free?
Bhagavan did sometimes make pronouncements which seemed superficially like affirmations of complete predestination. When he left home in his youth, already established in Self-realisation, his mother sought and at last found him. He was maintaining silence at that time; therefore, on her request to return home with her, he wrote out his reply instead of replying verbally:
The Ordainer controls the fate of souls in accordance with their prarabdha karma (destiny to be worked out in this life, resulting from the balance sheet of actions in past lives). Whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try as you may. Whatever is destined to happen will happen, do what you may to prevent it. This is certain. The best course, therefore, is to remain silent.
He sometimes also made such statements to devotees.
All the activities that the body is to go through are determined when it first comes into existence. It does not rest with you to accept or reject them. The only freedom you have is to turn your mind inward and renounces activities there.
With reference to Bhagavan's reply to Mrs. Desai on the evening of January 3, 1946, I asked him: Are only the important events in a man's life, such as his main occupation or profession, predetermined, or are trifling acts also, such as taking a cup of water or moving from one part of the room to another?
B: Everything is predetermined.
I: Then what responsibility, what free will has man?
B: Why does the body come into existence? It is designed for the various things that are marked out for it in this life.... As for freedom, a man is always free not to identify himself with the body and not to be affected by the pleasures and pains consequent on its activities.
Actually, however, the question of free will or predestination does not arise at all from the point of view of non-duality. It is as though a group of people who had never heard of radio were to stand round a wireless set arguing whether the man in the box has to sing what the transmitting station tells him to or whether he can change parts of the songs. The answer is that there is no man in the box and therefore the question does not arise. Similarly, the answer to the question of whether the ego has free will or not is that there is no ego and therefore the question does not arise. Therefore Bhagavan's usual response to the question would be to bid the questioner find out who it is that has free will or predestination.
D: Has man any free will or is everything in his life predetermined?
The same question as above, but the answer differs according to the needs of the questioner. In fact, if one does not bear in mind what has just been said about the unreality of the ego it seems to be quite contradictory.
B: Free will exists together with the individuality. As long as the individuality lasts, so long is there free will. All the scriptures are based on this fact and advise directing the free will in the right channel.
Is this really a contradiction of the reply given earlier? No, because, according to Bhagavan's teaching, individuality has only an illusory existence. So long as one imagines that one has a separate individuality, so long does one also imagine its free will. The two exist together inevitably. The problem of predestination and free will has always plagued philosophers and theologians and will always continue to do so, because it is insoluble on the plane of duality, that is on the supposition of one being who is the Creator and a lot of other, separate omnipotent and omniscient - he does not know what will happen, because it depends on what they decide; and he cannot control all happenings because they have the power to change them. On the other hand, if he is omniscient and omnipotent he has the fore-knowledge of all that will happen and controls everything, and therefore they can have no power of decision, that is to say no free will. But on the level of advaita or non-duality the problem fades out and ceases to exist. In truth the ego has no free will, because there is no ego; but on the level of apparent reality the ego consists of free will - it is the illusion of free will that creates the illusion of the ego. That is what Bhagavan meant by saying that "as long as the individuality lasts, so long is there free will.'' The next sentence in his answer turns the questioner away from the theory of practice.
Find out who it is who has free will or predestination and abide in that state. Then both are transcended. That is the only purpose in discussing these questions. To whom do such questions present themselves? Discover that and be at peace.
Neuroscientist: How to Escape the Rat Race | Robert Sapolsky
Light Watkins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNMLlX7tyQk
from
The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi
in His Own Words
Edited by Arthur Osborne
6th Edition 1993
Chapter II
From Theory to Practice
As was shown in the previous chapter, the theory that the Maharshi taught was intended only to serve as a basis for practice. However, the demand for practice brought in another branch of theory, that of free-will or predestination, since people were not lacking who asked why they should make any effort if everything was predestined, or if all men returned to their Source in any case.
A visitor from Bengal said: Shankara says that we are all free, not bound, and that we shall all return to God from whom we came, like sparks from a fire. If that is so, why should we not commit all sorts of sins?
Bhagavan's reply showed him that that cannot be the point of view of the ego.
B: It is true that we are not bound. That is to say, the real Self has no bondage. And it is true that you will eventually return to your Source. But meanwhile, if you commit sins as you call them, you have to face the consequences. You cannot escape them. If a man beats you, can you say: 'I am free. I am not affected by the beating and feel no pain. Let him continue beating'? If you can really feel that, then you can do what you like, but what is the use of just saying in words that you are free?
Bhagavan did sometimes make pronouncements which seemed superficially like affirmations of complete predestination. When he left home in his youth, already established in Self-realisation, his mother sought and at last found him. He was maintaining silence at that time; therefore, on her request to return home with her, he wrote out his reply instead of replying verbally:
The Ordainer controls the fate of souls in accordance with their prarabdha karma (destiny to be worked out in this life, resulting from the balance sheet of actions in past lives). Whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try as you may. Whatever is destined to happen will happen, do what you may to prevent it. This is certain. The best course, therefore, is to remain silent.
He sometimes also made such statements to devotees.
All the activities that the body is to go through are determined when it first comes into existence. It does not rest with you to accept or reject them. The only freedom you have is to turn your mind inward and renounces activities there.
With reference to Bhagavan's reply to Mrs. Desai on the evening of January 3, 1946, I asked him: Are only the important events in a man's life, such as his main occupation or profession, predetermined, or are trifling acts also, such as taking a cup of water or moving from one part of the room to another?
B: Everything is predetermined.
I: Then what responsibility, what free will has man?
B: Why does the body come into existence? It is designed for the various things that are marked out for it in this life.... As for freedom, a man is always free not to identify himself with the body and not to be affected by the pleasures and pains consequent on its activities.
Actually, however, the question of free will or predestination does not arise at all from the point of view of non-duality. It is as though a group of people who had never heard of radio were to stand round a wireless set arguing whether the man in the box has to sing what the transmitting station tells him to or whether he can change parts of the songs. The answer is that there is no man in the box and therefore the question does not arise. Similarly, the answer to the question of whether the ego has free will or not is that there is no ego and therefore the question does not arise. Therefore Bhagavan's usual response to the question would be to bid the questioner find out who it is that has free will or predestination.
D: Has man any free will or is everything in his life predetermined?
The same question as above, but the answer differs according to the needs of the questioner. In fact, if one does not bear in mind what has just been said about the unreality of the ego it seems to be quite contradictory.
B: Free will exists together with the individuality. As long as the individuality lasts, so long is there free will. All the scriptures are based on this fact and advise directing the free will in the right channel.
Is this really a contradiction of the reply given earlier? No, because, according to Bhagavan's teaching, individuality has only an illusory existence. So long as one imagines that one has a separate individuality, so long does one also imagine its free will. The two exist together inevitably. The problem of predestination and free will has always plagued philosophers and theologians and will always continue to do so, because it is insoluble on the plane of duality, that is on the supposition of one being who is the Creator and a lot of other, separate omnipotent and omniscient - he does not know what will happen, because it depends on what they decide; and he cannot control all happenings because they have the power to change them. On the other hand, if he is omniscient and omnipotent he has the fore-knowledge of all that will happen and controls everything, and therefore they can have no power of decision, that is to say no free will. But on the level of advaita or non-duality the problem fades out and ceases to exist. In truth the ego has no free will, because there is no ego; but on the level of apparent reality the ego consists of free will - it is the illusion of free will that creates the illusion of the ego. That is what Bhagavan meant by saying that "as long as the individuality lasts, so long is there free will.'' The next sentence in his answer turns the questioner away from the theory of practice.
Find out who it is who has free will or predestination and abide in that state. Then both are transcended. That is the only purpose in discussing these questions. To whom do such questions present themselves? Discover that and be at peace.
terry, modified 4 Months ago at 8/12/24 12:18 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/12/24 12:18 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
When zen monks spoke of free will it was in terms of “self power” vs “other power.”
The classic zen text on free will characteristically takes the argument to a whole ‘nother level.
Case 29 Hui-neng: “Not the Wind; Not the Flag”
The Case
Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, “The flag moves.” The other said, “The wind moves.” They argued back and forth but could not agree.
The Sixth Ancestor said, “Gentlemen! It is not the wind that moves; it is not the flag that moves; it is your mind that moves.” The two monks were struck with awe.
Wu-men’s Comment
It is not the wind that moves. It is not the flag that moves. It is not the mind that moves. How do you see the Ancestral Teacher here? If you can view this matter intimately, you will find that the two monks received gold when they were buying iron. The Ancestral Teacher could not repress his compassion and overspent himself.
Wu-men’s Verse
Wind, flag, mind move –
all the same fallacy;
only knowing how to open their mouths;
not knowing they had fallen into chatter.
The classic zen text on free will characteristically takes the argument to a whole ‘nother level.
Case 29 Hui-neng: “Not the Wind; Not the Flag”
The Case
Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, “The flag moves.” The other said, “The wind moves.” They argued back and forth but could not agree.
The Sixth Ancestor said, “Gentlemen! It is not the wind that moves; it is not the flag that moves; it is your mind that moves.” The two monks were struck with awe.
Wu-men’s Comment
It is not the wind that moves. It is not the flag that moves. It is not the mind that moves. How do you see the Ancestral Teacher here? If you can view this matter intimately, you will find that the two monks received gold when they were buying iron. The Ancestral Teacher could not repress his compassion and overspent himself.
Wu-men’s Verse
Wind, flag, mind move –
all the same fallacy;
only knowing how to open their mouths;
not knowing they had fallen into chatter.
Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago at 8/12/24 7:32 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/12/24 7:32 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 3140 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Poststerry, modified 3 Months ago at 8/16/24 2:16 AM
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RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
There are "turning words" and there is "chatter." The ancestral teacher "overspent himself" by getting involved in a dualistic argument. In reality, everything is moving and nothing is moving. To say, "mind is moving" is dualistic, thus "chatter." Movement is relative and implies duality.
"Only know how to open their mouths" refers to opinion, as opposed to truth, which is revealed in silence.
"Only know how to open their mouths" refers to opinion, as opposed to truth, which is revealed in silence.
Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago at 8/20/24 7:21 PM
Created 3 Months ago at 8/20/24 7:21 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 3140 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Poststerry, modified 3 Months ago at 8/26/24 1:16 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsPapa Che Dusko
I don't think you speak like this to your neighbor and maybe you do!
I don't think you speak like this to your neighbor and maybe you do!
the bridge moves
the river is still
terry, modified 3 Months ago at 8/18/24 2:26 PM
Created 3 Months ago at 8/18/24 2:26 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from
CH'AN AND ZEN TEACHING
charles luk
After the World Honoured One had attained enhghtenment,
He went to the Mrgadava park where He expounded the Four Noble
Truths and where this cousin was the first disciple awakened to the truth.
This cousin was also one of His great disciples and the first to leave home.
For this reason, he was called the 'Holy Monk'. He was also known as the
Sangha Head. His method of self-cultivation is clearly described in the
Surangama Sutra which says:
After I had attained enlightenment, I went to the Mrgadava park where I declared to Ajnata-Kaundinya and the other five bhiksus as well as to you, the
four varga, that all living beings failed to realize Enhghtenment (Bodhi) and attain
Arhatship because they were misled by foreign dust which (entering the mind)caused distress and delusion. What, at the time, caused your awakening (to the
truth) for your present attainment of the holy fruit ?
This was the Buddha's talk about the cause of our failure to realize
Bodhi and to attain Arhatship. He also asked His great disciples in the assembly about the methods they used tor their awakening (to the truth).
At the time, only Ajnata-Kaundinya knew this method. So he arose from his seat and replied to the World Honoured One as follows:
I am now a senior in the assembly in which I am the only one who has acquired the art of explaining because of my awakening to (the meaning of) the two words'foreign dust' which led to my attainment of the (holy) fruit.
After saying this, he gave the following explanation (of these two words) to the World Honoured One:
World Honoured One, (foreign dust) is like a guest who stops at an inn where he passes the night or takes his meal, and as soon as he has done so, he packs and continues his journey because he has no time to stay longer. As to the host of the inn, he has nowhere to go. My deduction is that one who does not stay is a guest and one who does stay is a host. Consequently, a thing is 'foreign' when it does not stay.
Again, in a clear sky, when the sun rises and its light enters (the house) through an opening, the dust is seen moving in the ray of light whereas the empty space is unmoving. Therefore, that which is still is the void and that which moves is the dust.
How clearly he explained the two words 'host' and 'guest'! You should know that this illustration shows us how to begin our training.In other words, the real mind is the host who does not move and the moving guest is our false thinking which is likened to dust. Dust is very fine and dances in the air. It is visible only when the sunlight enters through the door or an opening. This means that false thoughts within our minds are imperceptible in the usual process of thinking. They become perceptible only when we sit in meditation during our training.
In the midst of the unending rise and fall of mixed thoughts and in the
tumult of false thinking, if your training is not efficient, you will not be
able to act as a host; hence your failure to attain enlightenment and your
drifting about in the ocean of birth and death, wherein you are a Smith in
your present transmigration and will be a Jones in the next one. Thus you
will be exactly like a guest who stops at an inn and will not be able to
remain there for ever. However, the true mind does not act in that way;
it neither comes nor goes, is not bom and does not die. It does not move
but remains motionless, hence the host. This host is likened to the immutable vdidness in which the dust dances. It is also like the host of an inn who
always stays there for he has nowhere else to go.
Dust is like one of the passions and can be wiped out completely only
when one reaches the Bodhisattva-stage. By falsehood, is meant illusion.
There are eighty-eight kinds of illusory view and eighty-one of illusory
thought. These (misleading) views come from the five stupid temptations,
and in self-cultivation, one should wipe out all of them in order to attain
the first stage of the Arhat (srota-apanna). This is the most difficult thing
to do, for the cutting of illusory views is hkened to the cutting (or
stopping) of the flow of a forty-mile stream. Thus we can see that we
should have a great measure of strength in our training. We can attain
Arhatship only when we have succeeded in cutting out all misleading
thoughts. This kind of self-cultivation is a gradual process.
(In our Ch'an training), we have only to make use of a hua t'ou which
should be kept bright and lively and should never be allowed to become
blurred and which should always be clearly cognizable. All misleading
views and thoughts will thus be cut off (by the hua t'ou) at a single blow
leaving behind only something like the cloudless blue sky in which the
bright sun will rise. This is the brightness of the self-nature when it manifests itself. This saint (arya) was awakened to this truth and recognized the
original host. The first step in our training today is to be cognizant of the
fact that the foreign dust (or guest) is moving whereas the host is motionless. If this is not clearly understood, we will not know where to begin
our training, and will only waste our time as heretofore.
I hope all of you will pay great attention to the above.
CH'AN AND ZEN TEACHING
charles luk
After the World Honoured One had attained enhghtenment,
He went to the Mrgadava park where He expounded the Four Noble
Truths and where this cousin was the first disciple awakened to the truth.
This cousin was also one of His great disciples and the first to leave home.
For this reason, he was called the 'Holy Monk'. He was also known as the
Sangha Head. His method of self-cultivation is clearly described in the
Surangama Sutra which says:
After I had attained enlightenment, I went to the Mrgadava park where I declared to Ajnata-Kaundinya and the other five bhiksus as well as to you, the
four varga, that all living beings failed to realize Enhghtenment (Bodhi) and attain
Arhatship because they were misled by foreign dust which (entering the mind)caused distress and delusion. What, at the time, caused your awakening (to the
truth) for your present attainment of the holy fruit ?
This was the Buddha's talk about the cause of our failure to realize
Bodhi and to attain Arhatship. He also asked His great disciples in the assembly about the methods they used tor their awakening (to the truth).
At the time, only Ajnata-Kaundinya knew this method. So he arose from his seat and replied to the World Honoured One as follows:
I am now a senior in the assembly in which I am the only one who has acquired the art of explaining because of my awakening to (the meaning of) the two words'foreign dust' which led to my attainment of the (holy) fruit.
After saying this, he gave the following explanation (of these two words) to the World Honoured One:
World Honoured One, (foreign dust) is like a guest who stops at an inn where he passes the night or takes his meal, and as soon as he has done so, he packs and continues his journey because he has no time to stay longer. As to the host of the inn, he has nowhere to go. My deduction is that one who does not stay is a guest and one who does stay is a host. Consequently, a thing is 'foreign' when it does not stay.
Again, in a clear sky, when the sun rises and its light enters (the house) through an opening, the dust is seen moving in the ray of light whereas the empty space is unmoving. Therefore, that which is still is the void and that which moves is the dust.
How clearly he explained the two words 'host' and 'guest'! You should know that this illustration shows us how to begin our training.In other words, the real mind is the host who does not move and the moving guest is our false thinking which is likened to dust. Dust is very fine and dances in the air. It is visible only when the sunlight enters through the door or an opening. This means that false thoughts within our minds are imperceptible in the usual process of thinking. They become perceptible only when we sit in meditation during our training.
In the midst of the unending rise and fall of mixed thoughts and in the
tumult of false thinking, if your training is not efficient, you will not be
able to act as a host; hence your failure to attain enlightenment and your
drifting about in the ocean of birth and death, wherein you are a Smith in
your present transmigration and will be a Jones in the next one. Thus you
will be exactly like a guest who stops at an inn and will not be able to
remain there for ever. However, the true mind does not act in that way;
it neither comes nor goes, is not bom and does not die. It does not move
but remains motionless, hence the host. This host is likened to the immutable vdidness in which the dust dances. It is also like the host of an inn who
always stays there for he has nowhere else to go.
Dust is like one of the passions and can be wiped out completely only
when one reaches the Bodhisattva-stage. By falsehood, is meant illusion.
There are eighty-eight kinds of illusory view and eighty-one of illusory
thought. These (misleading) views come from the five stupid temptations,
and in self-cultivation, one should wipe out all of them in order to attain
the first stage of the Arhat (srota-apanna). This is the most difficult thing
to do, for the cutting of illusory views is hkened to the cutting (or
stopping) of the flow of a forty-mile stream. Thus we can see that we
should have a great measure of strength in our training. We can attain
Arhatship only when we have succeeded in cutting out all misleading
thoughts. This kind of self-cultivation is a gradual process.
(In our Ch'an training), we have only to make use of a hua t'ou which
should be kept bright and lively and should never be allowed to become
blurred and which should always be clearly cognizable. All misleading
views and thoughts will thus be cut off (by the hua t'ou) at a single blow
leaving behind only something like the cloudless blue sky in which the
bright sun will rise. This is the brightness of the self-nature when it manifests itself. This saint (arya) was awakened to this truth and recognized the
original host. The first step in our training today is to be cognizant of the
fact that the foreign dust (or guest) is moving whereas the host is motionless. If this is not clearly understood, we will not know where to begin
our training, and will only waste our time as heretofore.
I hope all of you will pay great attention to the above.
terry, modified 3 Months ago at 8/19/24 1:26 PM
Created 3 Months ago at 8/19/24 1:26 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from
Teachings of
BUDDHISM
Selected from
The Transmission of the Lamp
TRANSLATED WITH INTRODUCTIONS BY
CHANG CHUNG-YUAN
In 1934, Carl Gustav Jung, in his foreword to Daisetz T.
Suzuki's An Introduction to Zen Buddhism, described Ch'an as a
process transforming the limited ego-form self into the unlimited
non-ego-form self. When one embraces an insight into the nature
of one's self, emancipation from the illusory conception of self
takes place and total consciousness emerges. This new, total consciousness is distinguished from the ego-form consciousness in that the latter is always conscious of something, whereas the former
takes no object but itself. It is as if the subject character of the ego
has disappeared, leaving this total consciousness conscious of itself.
It is free from attachment to things, creatures, and circumstances.
By this turning inward, man glimpses a total exhibition of potential
nature. This realization may be illustrated by the words of Hsiiansha Shih-pei. A disciple once asked him how he could enter Ch'an.
He answered, "Do you hear the murmuring of the stream?" "Yes."
"Therein you may enter."
Teachings of
BUDDHISM
Selected from
The Transmission of the Lamp
TRANSLATED WITH INTRODUCTIONS BY
CHANG CHUNG-YUAN
In 1934, Carl Gustav Jung, in his foreword to Daisetz T.
Suzuki's An Introduction to Zen Buddhism, described Ch'an as a
process transforming the limited ego-form self into the unlimited
non-ego-form self. When one embraces an insight into the nature
of one's self, emancipation from the illusory conception of self
takes place and total consciousness emerges. This new, total consciousness is distinguished from the ego-form consciousness in that the latter is always conscious of something, whereas the former
takes no object but itself. It is as if the subject character of the ego
has disappeared, leaving this total consciousness conscious of itself.
It is free from attachment to things, creatures, and circumstances.
By this turning inward, man glimpses a total exhibition of potential
nature. This realization may be illustrated by the words of Hsiiansha Shih-pei. A disciple once asked him how he could enter Ch'an.
He answered, "Do you hear the murmuring of the stream?" "Yes."
"Therein you may enter."
terry, modified 3 Months ago at 8/20/24 1:44 PM
Created 3 Months ago at 8/20/24 1:44 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from
The Zen Teaching of Rinzai
by Irmgard Schloegl
12.a. Instructing his monks, the master said: Followers of the Way, it is most important that you come to see clearly. Then you can go your way and confront the world, without letting yourselves be deceived by those delusive fox sprites. Nothing is more precious than to be a man who has nothing further to seek. Just do not give rise to any fancies, and be your ordinary selves.
The trouble is, you look to the outside, and, pursuing it hotly, you doubt whether you have hands and feet. Do not be deceived. If you only think of seeking Buddha, Buddha becomes a mere name. And the very one who runs to seek Buddha, do you know him? All the Buddhas and patriarchs in the Three Worlds and the ten directions have appeared only for the purpose of seeking the Dharma. And today's diligent Followers of the Way are also seeking the Dharma. Only when one has got it is there an end to it. As long as one has not got it, one transmigrates through the Five Paths.
What is Dharma? Dharma is the Law of the Heart. The Law of the Heart is without form; pervading everywhere, it is perceptible and active right before your eyes. But, if there is lack of faith, then one chases names and phrases and, in a welter of words, arbitrarily speculates on the Buddha-Dharma which is as far away as is heaven from earth.
The Zen Teaching of Rinzai
by Irmgard Schloegl
12.a. Instructing his monks, the master said: Followers of the Way, it is most important that you come to see clearly. Then you can go your way and confront the world, without letting yourselves be deceived by those delusive fox sprites. Nothing is more precious than to be a man who has nothing further to seek. Just do not give rise to any fancies, and be your ordinary selves.
The trouble is, you look to the outside, and, pursuing it hotly, you doubt whether you have hands and feet. Do not be deceived. If you only think of seeking Buddha, Buddha becomes a mere name. And the very one who runs to seek Buddha, do you know him? All the Buddhas and patriarchs in the Three Worlds and the ten directions have appeared only for the purpose of seeking the Dharma. And today's diligent Followers of the Way are also seeking the Dharma. Only when one has got it is there an end to it. As long as one has not got it, one transmigrates through the Five Paths.
What is Dharma? Dharma is the Law of the Heart. The Law of the Heart is without form; pervading everywhere, it is perceptible and active right before your eyes. But, if there is lack of faith, then one chases names and phrases and, in a welter of words, arbitrarily speculates on the Buddha-Dharma which is as far away as is heaven from earth.
terry, modified 3 Months ago at 8/26/24 2:11 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
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from the tao te ching,trans stephen mitchell
22
If you want to become whole,
let yourself be partial.
If you want to become straight,
let yourself be crooked.
If you want to become full,
let yourself be empty.
If you want to be reborn,
let yourself die.
If you want to be given everything,
give everything up.
The Master, by residing in the Tao,
sets an example for all beings.
Because he doesn't display himself,
people can see his light.
Because he has nothing to prove,
people can trust his words.
Because he doesn't know who he is,
people recognize themselves in him.
Because he has no goal in mind,
everything he does succeeds.
When the ancient Masters said,
"If you want to be given everything, give everything up,"
they weren't using empty phrases.
Only in being lived by the Tao can you be truly yourself.
22
If you want to become whole,
let yourself be partial.
If you want to become straight,
let yourself be crooked.
If you want to become full,
let yourself be empty.
If you want to be reborn,
let yourself die.
If you want to be given everything,
give everything up.
The Master, by residing in the Tao,
sets an example for all beings.
Because he doesn't display himself,
people can see his light.
Because he has nothing to prove,
people can trust his words.
Because he doesn't know who he is,
people recognize themselves in him.
Because he has no goal in mind,
everything he does succeeds.
When the ancient Masters said,
"If you want to be given everything, give everything up,"
they weren't using empty phrases.
Only in being lived by the Tao can you be truly yourself.
terry, modified 3 Months ago at 8/31/24 1:00 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
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RE: mappo mapping
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soto zen sayings:
practice is enlightenment
the less you do, the deeper you see
there is no "way to happiness" -
happiness is a way
don't worry, be happy
(bobby mcferrin)
[Verse 1]
Here's a little song I wrote
You might want to sing it note for note
Don't worry
Be happy
In every life we have some trouble
But when you worry you make it double
Don't worry
Be happy, don't worry, be happy now
[Chorus]
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
[Verse 2]
Ain't got no place to lay your head
Somebody came and took your bed
Don't worry
Be happy
The landlord say your rent is late
He may have to litigate
But don't worry
Be happy, look at me, I'm happy
[Chorus]
Don't worry, be happy (Hey, I'll give you my phone number, when you worry, call me, I'll make you happy)
Don't worry, be happy
[Verse 3]
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
But don't worry
Be happy
'Cause when you worry, your face will frown
And that will bring everybody down
So don't worry
Be happy, don't worry, be happy now
[Chorus]
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
[Bridge]
Now there is the song I wrote
I hope you learned it note for note, like good little children
Don't worry
Be happy
Now listen to what I said, in your life expect some trouble
But when you worry, you make it double
But don't worry
Be happy, be happy now
[Chorus]
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
[Outro]
Don't worry, don't worry, don't do it, be happy
Put a smile on your face
Don't bring everybody down like this
Don't worry, it will soon pass, whatever it is
Don't worry, be happy
I'm not worried
I'm happy
practice is enlightenment
the less you do, the deeper you see
there is no "way to happiness" -
happiness is a way
don't worry, be happy
(bobby mcferrin)
[Verse 1]
Here's a little song I wrote
You might want to sing it note for note
Don't worry
Be happy
In every life we have some trouble
But when you worry you make it double
Don't worry
Be happy, don't worry, be happy now
[Chorus]
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
[Verse 2]
Ain't got no place to lay your head
Somebody came and took your bed
Don't worry
Be happy
The landlord say your rent is late
He may have to litigate
But don't worry
Be happy, look at me, I'm happy
[Chorus]
Don't worry, be happy (Hey, I'll give you my phone number, when you worry, call me, I'll make you happy)
Don't worry, be happy
[Verse 3]
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
But don't worry
Be happy
'Cause when you worry, your face will frown
And that will bring everybody down
So don't worry
Be happy, don't worry, be happy now
[Chorus]
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
[Bridge]
Now there is the song I wrote
I hope you learned it note for note, like good little children
Don't worry
Be happy
Now listen to what I said, in your life expect some trouble
But when you worry, you make it double
But don't worry
Be happy, be happy now
[Chorus]
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy
[Outro]
Don't worry, don't worry, don't do it, be happy
Put a smile on your face
Don't bring everybody down like this
Don't worry, it will soon pass, whatever it is
Don't worry, be happy
I'm not worried
I'm happy
terry, modified 3 Months ago at 9/1/24 1:42 AM
Created 3 Months ago at 9/1/24 1:42 AM
RE: mappo mapping
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RE: mappo mapping
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from
Record of the life of the Ch'an master Po-chang Huai-hai
[Bojang Whyhigh]
Translated by Gary Snyder
from the Ching-tê Chuan-têng Lu, 'Transmission of the Lamp' Ch. VI. Taisho Tripitaka 51.249b ff.
In: Earth House Hold, New York: New Directions, 1969, pp. 69-82.
http://www.snyderjoan.com/admins/uploadfile/201310/20131019042727471.pdf
Bojang's Big Lecture
A comrade asked "What about the Dharma-gate of Mahayana Sudden Enlightenment?" The
Master said:
"All of you: first stop all causal relationships, and bring the ten thousand affairs to rest. Good
or not good, out of the world or in the world—don't keep any of these dharmas in mind. Don't
have causally conditioned thoughts. Relinquish both body and mind and make yourself free,
with a mind like wood or stone—making no discriminations. Then the mind is without action,
and the mind-ground is like the empty sky.
Then the sun of wisdom will appear by itself, like clouds opening and the sun coming out.
Completely stop all involving causes: greed, anger, lust, attachment. Feelings of purity or
impurity should be extinguished. As for the five desires and the eight lusts, one need not be
bound by seeing, hearing, perceiving or knowing; or be deluded under any circumstance.
Then you will be endowed with supernatural and mysterious power. Thus is the liberated
man.
As for all kinds of circumstances, the mind of such a man is without either tranquillity or
disorder—neither concentrated or scattered. Then there is no obstruction to the complete
comprehension of Sound and Form. Such may be called a man of Tao. He is bound in no way
by good or bad, purity or impurity, or the uses of worldly happiness and wisdom. This is what
we call Buddha-Wisdom. Right and wrong, pretty and ugly, reasonable and unreasonable—all
intellectual discriminations are completely exhausted. Being unbound, his mental condition is
free. Such a man may be called a Bodhisattva whose Bodhi-mind arrives the instant it sets
out.
Such can ascend directly to the Buddha lands.
All the dharmas, basically, are not of themselves empty.
They do not, themselves, speak of form; also they say nothing of right and wrong or purity
and impurity; and they have no intention of binding men. The fact is that men themselves
deludedly speculate and make several kinds of understanding and bring forth several kinds of
intellectual discrimination.
If feelings of purity and impurity could be exhausted, if one didn't dwell in attachments and
didn't dwell in liberation— if there were absolutely no drawing-of-lines between conditioned
and unconditioned—if the mind analyzed without making choices—THEN THAT MIND
WOULD BE FREE. One would not be tangled up with illusion, suffering, the skandhas,
samsara or the twelve links of the chain. Remote, unattached, completely without clinging.
Going or staying without obstruction; entering into or coming out of Birth-and-Death is like
going through opening gates. Even when that mind meets with various sorts of suffering and
things that go wrong, that mind does not retreat groveling.
Such a one is not concerned with fame, clothing or food.
He doesn't covet merit or profit; he is not obstructed by social things. Though he may be
brought up against pleasure or pain, he doesn't get involved. Coarse food sustains his life,
patched clothes resist the weather. He is vacant, like a complete idiot or deaf man.
If one has the least inclination toward broadly studying Understanding within
samsara—seeking fortune and wisdom— it will add nothing to the Principle. Instead one will
be hung up by the circumstances of understanding; and return to the sea of samsara. Buddha
is an unseekable One: if you seek it you go astray. The Principle is an unseekable Principle; if
you seek it you lose it. And if you manage not to seek, it turns to seeking. This Dharma has
neither substance or emptiness. If you are able to flow through life with a mind as open and
complete as wood or stone— then you will not be swept away and drowned by the skandhas,
the five desires and the eight lusts. Then the source of Birth-and-Death will be cut off, and
you will go and come freely.
You will not in the least be bound by the conditions of karma. With an unfettered body you
can share your benefits with all things. With an unfettered mind you can respond to all minds.
With an unfettered wisdom you can loosen all bonds.
You are able to give the medicine according to the disease.
Record of the life of the Ch'an master Po-chang Huai-hai
[Bojang Whyhigh]
Translated by Gary Snyder
from the Ching-tê Chuan-têng Lu, 'Transmission of the Lamp' Ch. VI. Taisho Tripitaka 51.249b ff.
In: Earth House Hold, New York: New Directions, 1969, pp. 69-82.
http://www.snyderjoan.com/admins/uploadfile/201310/20131019042727471.pdf
Bojang's Big Lecture
A comrade asked "What about the Dharma-gate of Mahayana Sudden Enlightenment?" The
Master said:
"All of you: first stop all causal relationships, and bring the ten thousand affairs to rest. Good
or not good, out of the world or in the world—don't keep any of these dharmas in mind. Don't
have causally conditioned thoughts. Relinquish both body and mind and make yourself free,
with a mind like wood or stone—making no discriminations. Then the mind is without action,
and the mind-ground is like the empty sky.
Then the sun of wisdom will appear by itself, like clouds opening and the sun coming out.
Completely stop all involving causes: greed, anger, lust, attachment. Feelings of purity or
impurity should be extinguished. As for the five desires and the eight lusts, one need not be
bound by seeing, hearing, perceiving or knowing; or be deluded under any circumstance.
Then you will be endowed with supernatural and mysterious power. Thus is the liberated
man.
As for all kinds of circumstances, the mind of such a man is without either tranquillity or
disorder—neither concentrated or scattered. Then there is no obstruction to the complete
comprehension of Sound and Form. Such may be called a man of Tao. He is bound in no way
by good or bad, purity or impurity, or the uses of worldly happiness and wisdom. This is what
we call Buddha-Wisdom. Right and wrong, pretty and ugly, reasonable and unreasonable—all
intellectual discriminations are completely exhausted. Being unbound, his mental condition is
free. Such a man may be called a Bodhisattva whose Bodhi-mind arrives the instant it sets
out.
Such can ascend directly to the Buddha lands.
All the dharmas, basically, are not of themselves empty.
They do not, themselves, speak of form; also they say nothing of right and wrong or purity
and impurity; and they have no intention of binding men. The fact is that men themselves
deludedly speculate and make several kinds of understanding and bring forth several kinds of
intellectual discrimination.
If feelings of purity and impurity could be exhausted, if one didn't dwell in attachments and
didn't dwell in liberation— if there were absolutely no drawing-of-lines between conditioned
and unconditioned—if the mind analyzed without making choices—THEN THAT MIND
WOULD BE FREE. One would not be tangled up with illusion, suffering, the skandhas,
samsara or the twelve links of the chain. Remote, unattached, completely without clinging.
Going or staying without obstruction; entering into or coming out of Birth-and-Death is like
going through opening gates. Even when that mind meets with various sorts of suffering and
things that go wrong, that mind does not retreat groveling.
Such a one is not concerned with fame, clothing or food.
He doesn't covet merit or profit; he is not obstructed by social things. Though he may be
brought up against pleasure or pain, he doesn't get involved. Coarse food sustains his life,
patched clothes resist the weather. He is vacant, like a complete idiot or deaf man.
If one has the least inclination toward broadly studying Understanding within
samsara—seeking fortune and wisdom— it will add nothing to the Principle. Instead one will
be hung up by the circumstances of understanding; and return to the sea of samsara. Buddha
is an unseekable One: if you seek it you go astray. The Principle is an unseekable Principle; if
you seek it you lose it. And if you manage not to seek, it turns to seeking. This Dharma has
neither substance or emptiness. If you are able to flow through life with a mind as open and
complete as wood or stone— then you will not be swept away and drowned by the skandhas,
the five desires and the eight lusts. Then the source of Birth-and-Death will be cut off, and
you will go and come freely.
You will not in the least be bound by the conditions of karma. With an unfettered body you
can share your benefits with all things. With an unfettered mind you can respond to all minds.
With an unfettered wisdom you can loosen all bonds.
You are able to give the medicine according to the disease.
terry, modified 3 Months ago at 9/3/24 2:26 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
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RE: mappo mapping
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terry more than words... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzurGVAGmAo
Hmm... how was this mic-ed? It sounds too good for the room? vibrato at 1:18 doesn't feel right....
ugh, this universe, so many questions...
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 2:02 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsCalled "chicken skin" in hawaii.
terry, modified 3 Months ago at 9/10/24 1:18 PM
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【Niso (the 2nd patriarch 二祖) Eka】
http://www.myoshinji.or.jp/english/zen_nw_nisoeka.html
TRANSLATION
Chapter Three
The monk Huike became the successor of the meditation master Bodhidharma in Ye, during the Qi dynasty. The meditation master Huike's family name was Ji, and he came from Wulao. He met Bodhidharma at the age of fourteen, when the master was travelling and teaching in Songshan and Luoyang. Huike served him for six years, mastering all aspects of the single vehicle while adhering to the profound principle. He composed some brief teachings on the path of cultivation, the key dharma points regarding the luminous mind and completing the ascent to buddhahood.
The Laṅkāvatāra sūtra says:
Observe the Sage in peace,
Beyond birth and death.
This is called ‘not clinging'
Pure now and ever after.
If there is a single one of all the buddhas of the ten directions who did not achieve this through sitting meditation, then there is no such thing as complete buddhahood.
The Daśabhūmika sūtra says:
In the body of every sentient being
There is the vajra buddha.
This is just like the sun,
Luminous, perfect and complete.
It is vast and unlimited,
Yet covered by the dark clouds of the five aggregates,
So sentient beings cannot see it.
When they meet with the winds of wisdom, the dark clouds of the five aggregates are blown away. Once they are gone, the buddha nature shines out, bright, luminous and pure.
The Avataṃsaka sūtra says:
Vast as the reality itself,
Endless as space.
It is also like the light of a lamp inside a vase that cannot shine out. Or like when hazy clouds come across the land all at once from all directions, plunging the land into darkness. How can the sunlight be pure and clear? The sun's light has not been diminished; it is just obscured by the hazy clouds and not seen by sentient beings. When the clouds part and are cleared away, the sunlight shines everywhere, its radiance pure and unobscured.
The pure nature of all sentient beings is like this; it is just that grasping, deluded thought, wrong views and dark clouds of the afflictions obscure the noble path so that it is unable to fully manifest. On the other hand, if deluded thoughts do not arise, and you sit in pure stillness, then the pure luminosity of the sun of great nirvana arises spontaneously.
A secular book says: ‘Though ice comes from water, it is able to stop water', and ‘When ice melts, water can flow again.' Similarly, though delusion arises from reality, reality can get lost in delusion. But when delusion comes to an end, reality is revealed. The ocean of the mind becomes instantly and perfectly clear; this is the dharmakaya, empty and pure.
Thus a student who takes written words and spoken teachings as the path is like a candle in the wind, unable to dispel the darkness when its flame blows out. If they sit in purity, doing nothing, this is like a lamp kept inside a sealed house, which can thus dispel the darkness and illuminate objects so that they can be clearly seen. If they understand that the source of the mind is pure, then all desires will be satisfied, all activities accomplished. With absolutely everything achieved, they will not have to go through further rebirths.
Among sentient beings as numerous as the sands on the banks of the Ganges, barely a single person exists who will attain this dharmakaya. In a billion aeons there may be no more than a single person who fulfils these criteria. If true sincerity has not arisen within you, then not even all the buddhas of the three times, who are as numerous as the sands on the banks of the Ganges, can help you.
Know this: sentient beings who recognize the nature of mind liberate themselves. It is not buddhas who liberate sentient beings. If buddhas were able to liberate sentient beings, then since we have already met buddhas countless as the sand on the banks of the Ganges, why have we not accomplished buddhahood yet? It is only because genuine sincerity has not arisen within us. We say we get it, but our minds do not get it.
As the dharma scriptures say, those who teach emptiness while keeping to worldly practices are imitating the ultimate path, and in the end they will not avoid being reborn in accord with their past actions. Thus the buddha nature is like the sun and moon in the world or the potential for fire within wood.
This buddha nature, which exists in everyone, is also known as ‘the lamp of the buddha nature' and ‘the mirror of nirvana'. This mirror of vast nirvana is brighter than the sun and moon, completely pure inside and out, unbound and unlimited. It is also like smelting gold: after the gold has taken shape and the fire has gone out, the nature of the gold remains unspoilt. Just so, after the succession of lives and deaths of sentient beings has come to an end, the dharmakaya remains unspoilt.
It is also like when a ball or lump of dirt is broken up – the individual particles are not destroyed. When rough waves cease, the nature of the water is not affected; just so, after the succession of lives and deaths of sentient beings has come to an end, the dharmakaya remains unspoilt.
Once I had verified for myself the benefits of sitting meditation, I dispensed with the attitude of looking for the principle in books of written dharma, and strove to accomplish buddhahood. There is not one person in ten thousand who does this. As an old book says, drawing food does not make a meal. If you just talk about food with people, how will you eat? When you try to remove a stopper, paradoxically, you often push it in more tightly.
The Avataṃsaka sūtra says:
There is a story of a very poor person
Who spent day and night counting the wealth of others
Without a penny of his own.
Scholarship is very much like this.
So those who read books should look into them briefly, then promptly set them aside. If they do not put them away again, how is this study of words different from looking for ice in hot water? Or boiling water but hoping to find snow? Thus the buddhas may teach the teachings, or teach the teachings by not teaching. In the true nature of things, there is neither teaching nor not teaching. If you realize this, everything else follows.
The Lotus Sutra says:
Not true, not false,
Not the same, not different.
* * *
The great master said –
In this teaching of the real dharma, everything is in accord with the truth,
And is ultimately no different from the profound principle itself.
At first, deluded people see the precious stone and call it a rock;
Then they suddenly realize that it is a genuine jewel.
There is no difference between ignorance and wisdom;
Just know that all phenomena are like this.
Out of compassion for those who spend their lives seeing them as different,
I speak these words, and write them down with my brush.
When you see yourself as no different from the Buddha,
Why would you continue to search elsewhere?
* * *
He also said – When I first generated the aspiration for enlightenment, I cut off one of my arms, and stood up straight in the snow from dusk till the third watch of the night, not noticing as the snow piled up around my knees, in order to seek the unsurpassable path.
As it is taught in the seventh volume of the Avataṃsaka sūtra :
When you enter a state of absorption in the east,
Samadhi arises in the west.
When you enter a state of absorption in the west,
Samadhi arises in the east.
When you enter a state of absorption based on the eyes,
Samadhi arises in forms.
Showing that the manifestation of forms is non-conceptual,
Something that gods and humans are unable to comprehend.
When you enter a state of absorption in forms,
Concentration arises in the eyes, and you are freed from confusion.
The eye that sees is not produced, nor does it have an intrinsic nature;
I teach that emptiness is stillness which abides nowhere.
The ear, nose, tongue, body and intellect,
Are also like this.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a child,
Samadhi arises in the body of an adult.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of an adult,
Samadhi arises in the body of an aged person.
When you enter samadhi in the body of an aged person,
Samadhi arises in the body of a virtuous woman.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a virtuous woman,
Samadhi appears in the body of a virtuous man.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a virtuous man,
Samadhi appears in the body of a nun.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a nun,
Samadhi appears in the body of a monk.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a monk,
Samadhi appears in the body of a hearer.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a hearer,
Samadhi appears in the body of a solitary budda.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a solitary buddha,
Samadhi appears in the body of a tathāgata.
When you enter the state of absorption in a single pore,
Samadhi appears in all of your pores.
When you enter the state of absorption in all of your pores,
Samadhi arises on the tip of a single hair.
When you enter the state of absorption on the tip of a single hair,
Samadhi arises in all of your hairs.
When you enter the state of absorption in all of your hairs,
Samadhi arises in a single mote of dust.
When you enter the state of absorption in a single mote of dust,
Samadhi arises in all motes of dust.
When you enter the state of absorption in a vast ocean of water,
Samadhi arises in a great blaze of fire.
One body can give rise to countless bodies,
And countless bodies can be one body.
If you attain realization of this one thing, everything else follows. Everything is just this – the dharmakaya, the guiding principle.
http://www.myoshinji.or.jp/english/zen_nw_nisoeka.html
TRANSLATION
Chapter Three
The monk Huike became the successor of the meditation master Bodhidharma in Ye, during the Qi dynasty. The meditation master Huike's family name was Ji, and he came from Wulao. He met Bodhidharma at the age of fourteen, when the master was travelling and teaching in Songshan and Luoyang. Huike served him for six years, mastering all aspects of the single vehicle while adhering to the profound principle. He composed some brief teachings on the path of cultivation, the key dharma points regarding the luminous mind and completing the ascent to buddhahood.
The Laṅkāvatāra sūtra says:
Observe the Sage in peace,
Beyond birth and death.
This is called ‘not clinging'
Pure now and ever after.
If there is a single one of all the buddhas of the ten directions who did not achieve this through sitting meditation, then there is no such thing as complete buddhahood.
The Daśabhūmika sūtra says:
In the body of every sentient being
There is the vajra buddha.
This is just like the sun,
Luminous, perfect and complete.
It is vast and unlimited,
Yet covered by the dark clouds of the five aggregates,
So sentient beings cannot see it.
When they meet with the winds of wisdom, the dark clouds of the five aggregates are blown away. Once they are gone, the buddha nature shines out, bright, luminous and pure.
The Avataṃsaka sūtra says:
Vast as the reality itself,
Endless as space.
It is also like the light of a lamp inside a vase that cannot shine out. Or like when hazy clouds come across the land all at once from all directions, plunging the land into darkness. How can the sunlight be pure and clear? The sun's light has not been diminished; it is just obscured by the hazy clouds and not seen by sentient beings. When the clouds part and are cleared away, the sunlight shines everywhere, its radiance pure and unobscured.
The pure nature of all sentient beings is like this; it is just that grasping, deluded thought, wrong views and dark clouds of the afflictions obscure the noble path so that it is unable to fully manifest. On the other hand, if deluded thoughts do not arise, and you sit in pure stillness, then the pure luminosity of the sun of great nirvana arises spontaneously.
A secular book says: ‘Though ice comes from water, it is able to stop water', and ‘When ice melts, water can flow again.' Similarly, though delusion arises from reality, reality can get lost in delusion. But when delusion comes to an end, reality is revealed. The ocean of the mind becomes instantly and perfectly clear; this is the dharmakaya, empty and pure.
Thus a student who takes written words and spoken teachings as the path is like a candle in the wind, unable to dispel the darkness when its flame blows out. If they sit in purity, doing nothing, this is like a lamp kept inside a sealed house, which can thus dispel the darkness and illuminate objects so that they can be clearly seen. If they understand that the source of the mind is pure, then all desires will be satisfied, all activities accomplished. With absolutely everything achieved, they will not have to go through further rebirths.
Among sentient beings as numerous as the sands on the banks of the Ganges, barely a single person exists who will attain this dharmakaya. In a billion aeons there may be no more than a single person who fulfils these criteria. If true sincerity has not arisen within you, then not even all the buddhas of the three times, who are as numerous as the sands on the banks of the Ganges, can help you.
Know this: sentient beings who recognize the nature of mind liberate themselves. It is not buddhas who liberate sentient beings. If buddhas were able to liberate sentient beings, then since we have already met buddhas countless as the sand on the banks of the Ganges, why have we not accomplished buddhahood yet? It is only because genuine sincerity has not arisen within us. We say we get it, but our minds do not get it.
As the dharma scriptures say, those who teach emptiness while keeping to worldly practices are imitating the ultimate path, and in the end they will not avoid being reborn in accord with their past actions. Thus the buddha nature is like the sun and moon in the world or the potential for fire within wood.
This buddha nature, which exists in everyone, is also known as ‘the lamp of the buddha nature' and ‘the mirror of nirvana'. This mirror of vast nirvana is brighter than the sun and moon, completely pure inside and out, unbound and unlimited. It is also like smelting gold: after the gold has taken shape and the fire has gone out, the nature of the gold remains unspoilt. Just so, after the succession of lives and deaths of sentient beings has come to an end, the dharmakaya remains unspoilt.
It is also like when a ball or lump of dirt is broken up – the individual particles are not destroyed. When rough waves cease, the nature of the water is not affected; just so, after the succession of lives and deaths of sentient beings has come to an end, the dharmakaya remains unspoilt.
Once I had verified for myself the benefits of sitting meditation, I dispensed with the attitude of looking for the principle in books of written dharma, and strove to accomplish buddhahood. There is not one person in ten thousand who does this. As an old book says, drawing food does not make a meal. If you just talk about food with people, how will you eat? When you try to remove a stopper, paradoxically, you often push it in more tightly.
The Avataṃsaka sūtra says:
There is a story of a very poor person
Who spent day and night counting the wealth of others
Without a penny of his own.
Scholarship is very much like this.
So those who read books should look into them briefly, then promptly set them aside. If they do not put them away again, how is this study of words different from looking for ice in hot water? Or boiling water but hoping to find snow? Thus the buddhas may teach the teachings, or teach the teachings by not teaching. In the true nature of things, there is neither teaching nor not teaching. If you realize this, everything else follows.
The Lotus Sutra says:
Not true, not false,
Not the same, not different.
* * *
The great master said –
In this teaching of the real dharma, everything is in accord with the truth,
And is ultimately no different from the profound principle itself.
At first, deluded people see the precious stone and call it a rock;
Then they suddenly realize that it is a genuine jewel.
There is no difference between ignorance and wisdom;
Just know that all phenomena are like this.
Out of compassion for those who spend their lives seeing them as different,
I speak these words, and write them down with my brush.
When you see yourself as no different from the Buddha,
Why would you continue to search elsewhere?
* * *
He also said – When I first generated the aspiration for enlightenment, I cut off one of my arms, and stood up straight in the snow from dusk till the third watch of the night, not noticing as the snow piled up around my knees, in order to seek the unsurpassable path.
As it is taught in the seventh volume of the Avataṃsaka sūtra :
When you enter a state of absorption in the east,
Samadhi arises in the west.
When you enter a state of absorption in the west,
Samadhi arises in the east.
When you enter a state of absorption based on the eyes,
Samadhi arises in forms.
Showing that the manifestation of forms is non-conceptual,
Something that gods and humans are unable to comprehend.
When you enter a state of absorption in forms,
Concentration arises in the eyes, and you are freed from confusion.
The eye that sees is not produced, nor does it have an intrinsic nature;
I teach that emptiness is stillness which abides nowhere.
The ear, nose, tongue, body and intellect,
Are also like this.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a child,
Samadhi arises in the body of an adult.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of an adult,
Samadhi arises in the body of an aged person.
When you enter samadhi in the body of an aged person,
Samadhi arises in the body of a virtuous woman.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a virtuous woman,
Samadhi appears in the body of a virtuous man.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a virtuous man,
Samadhi appears in the body of a nun.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a nun,
Samadhi appears in the body of a monk.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a monk,
Samadhi appears in the body of a hearer.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a hearer,
Samadhi appears in the body of a solitary budda.
When you enter the state of absorption in the body of a solitary buddha,
Samadhi appears in the body of a tathāgata.
When you enter the state of absorption in a single pore,
Samadhi appears in all of your pores.
When you enter the state of absorption in all of your pores,
Samadhi arises on the tip of a single hair.
When you enter the state of absorption on the tip of a single hair,
Samadhi arises in all of your hairs.
When you enter the state of absorption in all of your hairs,
Samadhi arises in a single mote of dust.
When you enter the state of absorption in a single mote of dust,
Samadhi arises in all motes of dust.
When you enter the state of absorption in a vast ocean of water,
Samadhi arises in a great blaze of fire.
One body can give rise to countless bodies,
And countless bodies can be one body.
If you attain realization of this one thing, everything else follows. Everything is just this – the dharmakaya, the guiding principle.
terry, modified 3 Months ago at 9/13/24 2:10 PM
Created 3 Months ago at 9/13/24 2:10 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/15/24 1:40 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
A monk asked him, "Before mind exists, where are things?"
Tung-shan answered, "The lotus leaves move without a breeze,
so there must be fish swimming by."
Monk: "What is the fundamental idea of Buddhism?"
Yun-men: "When spring comes, the grass turns green of itself."
from original ch’an, chang chung-yuan
Tung-shan answered, "The lotus leaves move without a breeze,
so there must be fish swimming by."
Monk: "What is the fundamental idea of Buddhism?"
Yun-men: "When spring comes, the grass turns green of itself."
from original ch’an, chang chung-yuan
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/15/24 1:55 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/15/24 1:55 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/17/24 11:28 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/17/24 11:28 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Of course I can't comment on a locked thread since it is locked and I have no idea what happened or why, but if I could comment I would say....
LOL
LOL
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/17/24 11:33 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/17/24 11:32 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
For me, nothing says "mappo" like tolerance of and complicity in genocide.
“The way Israel is destroying Palestinian food sovereignty will be studied not only as a shocking example of genocidal conduct, but also as a textbook case of sadistic disrespect for human life & dignity.”
~Francesca Albanese, UN special rapporteur
https://www.democracynow.org/shows/2024/9/17
“The way Israel is destroying Palestinian food sovereignty will be studied not only as a shocking example of genocidal conduct, but also as a textbook case of sadistic disrespect for human life & dignity.”
~Francesca Albanese, UN special rapporteur
https://www.democracynow.org/shows/2024/9/17
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/17/24 12:40 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/17/24 12:40 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
God gave noah
the rainbow sign:
no more water
the fire next time.
~slave song,
courtesy james baldwin
the rainbow sign:
no more water
the fire next time.
~slave song,
courtesy james baldwin
Adi Vader, modified 2 Months ago at 9/20/24 9:32 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/20/24 9:32 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 395 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent PostsAdi Vader, modified 2 Months ago at 9/20/24 10:04 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/20/24 10:04 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 395 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/22/24 6:02 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/22/24 6:01 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
mappo is the decline of buddhism over time
mapping is the sort of work people do on this site,
conveying one's understanding of the territory from a global perspective
living in hawaii we kamaainas are long familiar with the japanese way,
which involves exquisite politeness
disguising all sorts of malice
behind a mask of sincerity
one time I showed up at the lab ten minutes late, and there was an old
japanese woman waiting to have her blood drawn
she smiled and warmly thanked me for showing up and apologized for being early
it was at least a half an hour later before I realized she was cutting me dead
and delayed shame
was the aim
the british do it too, and their colonized counterparts
in america we're just rude
so sorry
mapping is the sort of work people do on this site,
conveying one's understanding of the territory from a global perspective
living in hawaii we kamaainas are long familiar with the japanese way,
which involves exquisite politeness
disguising all sorts of malice
behind a mask of sincerity
one time I showed up at the lab ten minutes late, and there was an old
japanese woman waiting to have her blood drawn
she smiled and warmly thanked me for showing up and apologized for being early
it was at least a half an hour later before I realized she was cutting me dead
and delayed shame
was the aim
the british do it too, and their colonized counterparts
in america we're just rude
so sorry
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/22/24 6:10 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/22/24 6:04 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/23/24 12:38 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/23/24 12:38 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsAdi Vader, modified 2 Months ago at 9/22/24 8:33 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/22/24 8:33 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 395 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
"mapping is the sort of work people do on this site,
conveying one's understanding of the territory from a global perspective"
What most people who write here are doing, to my eyes, is practicing in a very methodical structured way, working with a relatively clear technique / set of techniques, and then writing about what happens in meditation in the form of logs. Outside of the logs I see the same people, or people who have practiced holding the same attitude, writing on the back of their direct personal experience and understanding that has emerged from their direct personal experience.
So I would say that people seem to be writing from a very hands on, on the ground, within the territory kind of perspective.
"which involves exquisite politeness
disguising all sorts of malice
behind a mask of sincerity"
I was just trying to be friendly!
conveying one's understanding of the territory from a global perspective"
What most people who write here are doing, to my eyes, is practicing in a very methodical structured way, working with a relatively clear technique / set of techniques, and then writing about what happens in meditation in the form of logs. Outside of the logs I see the same people, or people who have practiced holding the same attitude, writing on the back of their direct personal experience and understanding that has emerged from their direct personal experience.
So I would say that people seem to be writing from a very hands on, on the ground, within the territory kind of perspective.
"which involves exquisite politeness
disguising all sorts of malice
behind a mask of sincerity"
I was just trying to be friendly!
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/23/24 1:10 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/23/24 1:10 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from
THE 100 PERFECT KOANS OF MASTER KIDO
WITH THE ANSWERS OF HAKUIN-ZEN
TRANSLATED, WITH A COMMENTARY,
BY YOEL HOFFMANN
•'•
every
end
exposed
50
Bitten by a Dog
[This koan is related to the following legend: There was a golden bird
who always devoured thc dragon's offspring. Being at a loss, the
dragon went to seek the aid of Buddha. Buddha removed his own
gown and gave it to the dragon, saying, "If you wear this, the golden
bird will not be able to harm you." The dragon asked for many more
gowns to protect all of the dragons. However, Buddha said that this
one gown could be endlessly divided and even a small thread would
protect the dragons from the golden bird.]
Once there was a monk who carrying the food-alms
bowl, went to the house of an old man. There he was
bitten by a dog. The old mon said, "If a dragon has even a
single threod on him, the golden bird will not devour it.
Your Reverend is fully clad in the holy gown. How come
you were bitten by a dog?" The monk was speechless.
MASTER KIDÖ
A sweet melon is sweet clear through.
MASTER HAKUIN
Unexpectedly I met up with trouble.
PLAIN SAYING
My, that’s a strong dog!
NOTE: The old man suggests that what is "perfect" (i.e, enlightened)
should not, by its nature, be affected by worldly causes (the dog's
bite). A different koan on the same theme appears in part 1 of … (koan 143). ln that koan it is suggested that it is a mistaken concept of "enlightenment" to conceive of it as deliverance from troubles and pain.
The same idea is expressed here in Hakuin's substitute phrase and
the plain saying. Kido’s comment suggests the answer the monk
shou!d have g1ven to the old man. This phrase is taken from the saying “Gall is bitter to the root, melon is sweet clear through." ln
answering this, Kido may have meant to suggest that the monk's
way is a bitter one and that it has nothing to do with the sweetness of the golden bird legend.
THE 100 PERFECT KOANS OF MASTER KIDO
WITH THE ANSWERS OF HAKUIN-ZEN
TRANSLATED, WITH A COMMENTARY,
BY YOEL HOFFMANN
•'•
every
end
exposed
50
Bitten by a Dog
[This koan is related to the following legend: There was a golden bird
who always devoured thc dragon's offspring. Being at a loss, the
dragon went to seek the aid of Buddha. Buddha removed his own
gown and gave it to the dragon, saying, "If you wear this, the golden
bird will not be able to harm you." The dragon asked for many more
gowns to protect all of the dragons. However, Buddha said that this
one gown could be endlessly divided and even a small thread would
protect the dragons from the golden bird.]
Once there was a monk who carrying the food-alms
bowl, went to the house of an old man. There he was
bitten by a dog. The old mon said, "If a dragon has even a
single threod on him, the golden bird will not devour it.
Your Reverend is fully clad in the holy gown. How come
you were bitten by a dog?" The monk was speechless.
MASTER KIDÖ
A sweet melon is sweet clear through.
MASTER HAKUIN
Unexpectedly I met up with trouble.
PLAIN SAYING
My, that’s a strong dog!
NOTE: The old man suggests that what is "perfect" (i.e, enlightened)
should not, by its nature, be affected by worldly causes (the dog's
bite). A different koan on the same theme appears in part 1 of … (koan 143). ln that koan it is suggested that it is a mistaken concept of "enlightenment" to conceive of it as deliverance from troubles and pain.
The same idea is expressed here in Hakuin's substitute phrase and
the plain saying. Kido’s comment suggests the answer the monk
shou!d have g1ven to the old man. This phrase is taken from the saying “Gall is bitter to the root, melon is sweet clear through." ln
answering this, Kido may have meant to suggest that the monk's
way is a bitter one and that it has nothing to do with the sweetness of the golden bird legend.
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/23/24 2:02 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/23/24 2:02 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/23/24 2:04 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/23/24 2:04 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/29/24 5:28 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/29/24 5:28 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from dogen, shobogenzo
[62] [Someone] asks, “In India and China, the people are originally unaffected and straight. Being at the center of the civilized world makes them so. As a result, when they are taught the Buddha-Dharma they understand and enter very quickly. In our country, from ancient times the people have had little benevolence and wisdom, and it is difficult for us to accumulate the seeds of rightness. Being the savages and barbarians [of the southeast] makes us so. How could we not regret it? Furthermore, people who have left home in this country are inferior even to the laypeople of the great nations; our whole society is stupid, and our minds are narrow and small. We are deeply attached to the results of intentional effort, and we like superficial quality. Can people like this expect to experience the Buddha-Dharma straight away, even if they sit in zazen?”
I say: As you say, the people of our country are not yet universally benevolent and wise, and some people are indeed crooked. Even if we preach right and straight Dharma to them, they will turn nectar into poison. They easily tend toward fame and gain, and it is hard for them to dissolve their delusions and attachments. On the other hand, to experience and enter the Buddha Dharma, one need not always use the worldly wisdom of human beings and gods as a vessel for transcendence of the world.
When the Buddha was in [the] world, [an old monk] experienced the fourth effect [when hit] by a ball, and [a prostitute] clarified the great state of truth after putting on a kaṣāya; both were dull people, stupid and silly creatures. But aided by right belief, they had the means to escape their delusion. Another case was the devout woman preparing a midday meal who disclosed the state of realization when she saw a stupid old bhikṣu sitting in quietness. This did not derive from her wisdom, did not derive from writings, did not depend on words, and did not depend on talk; she was aided only by her right belief.
Furthermore, Śākyamuni’s teachings have been spreading through the three thousand-world only for around two thousand or so years. Countries are of many kinds; not all are nations of benevolence and wisdom. How could all people, moreover, possess only intelligence and wisdom, keenness [of ear] and clarity [of eye]? But the right Dharma of the Tathāgata is originally furnished with unthinkably great virtue and power, and so when the time comes it will spread through those countries. When people just practice with right belief, the clever and the stupid alike will attain the truth. Just because our country is not a nation of benevolence or wisdom and the people are dullwitted, do not think that it is impossible for us to grasp the Buddha-Dharma. Still more, all human beings have the right seeds of prajñā in abundance. It may simply be that few of us have experienced the state directly, and so we are immature in receiving and using it.
[62] [Someone] asks, “In India and China, the people are originally unaffected and straight. Being at the center of the civilized world makes them so. As a result, when they are taught the Buddha-Dharma they understand and enter very quickly. In our country, from ancient times the people have had little benevolence and wisdom, and it is difficult for us to accumulate the seeds of rightness. Being the savages and barbarians [of the southeast] makes us so. How could we not regret it? Furthermore, people who have left home in this country are inferior even to the laypeople of the great nations; our whole society is stupid, and our minds are narrow and small. We are deeply attached to the results of intentional effort, and we like superficial quality. Can people like this expect to experience the Buddha-Dharma straight away, even if they sit in zazen?”
I say: As you say, the people of our country are not yet universally benevolent and wise, and some people are indeed crooked. Even if we preach right and straight Dharma to them, they will turn nectar into poison. They easily tend toward fame and gain, and it is hard for them to dissolve their delusions and attachments. On the other hand, to experience and enter the Buddha Dharma, one need not always use the worldly wisdom of human beings and gods as a vessel for transcendence of the world.
When the Buddha was in [the] world, [an old monk] experienced the fourth effect [when hit] by a ball, and [a prostitute] clarified the great state of truth after putting on a kaṣāya; both were dull people, stupid and silly creatures. But aided by right belief, they had the means to escape their delusion. Another case was the devout woman preparing a midday meal who disclosed the state of realization when she saw a stupid old bhikṣu sitting in quietness. This did not derive from her wisdom, did not derive from writings, did not depend on words, and did not depend on talk; she was aided only by her right belief.
Furthermore, Śākyamuni’s teachings have been spreading through the three thousand-world only for around two thousand or so years. Countries are of many kinds; not all are nations of benevolence and wisdom. How could all people, moreover, possess only intelligence and wisdom, keenness [of ear] and clarity [of eye]? But the right Dharma of the Tathāgata is originally furnished with unthinkably great virtue and power, and so when the time comes it will spread through those countries. When people just practice with right belief, the clever and the stupid alike will attain the truth. Just because our country is not a nation of benevolence or wisdom and the people are dullwitted, do not think that it is impossible for us to grasp the Buddha-Dharma. Still more, all human beings have the right seeds of prajñā in abundance. It may simply be that few of us have experienced the state directly, and so we are immature in receiving and using it.
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/29/24 6:45 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/29/24 6:45 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
"from whichever direction the wind blows
the sound of the wind is always prajna"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv5OPC4l8XY
the sound of the wind is always prajna"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv5OPC4l8XY
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 9/29/24 7:26 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 9/29/24 7:26 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 1:52 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 1:52 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
people who are keeping track may think this post a bit remote from the topic...
We tend to think, as jameson said, "It is easier to imagine the demise of the planet than it is to imagine the demise of capitalism." Actually capitalism is an unnecessary evil, unknown in america before the arrival of europeans. Since "the demise of the planet" is very mappo, reimagining the imaginability of the death of capitalism might be worthwhile.
Imagine if people decided to cooperate without coercion. Native americans lived a life that has inspired us ever since. Of course we have adopted their values "in principle" while claiming them as our own and giving them no credit, also pretending that we always held these values. Actually europeans and their colonialist offspring were slavers whose society was based on oppression and injustice.
From
The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity
David Graeber
wherein the author discusses a book
“…entitled Curious Dialogues with a Savage of Good Sense Who Has Travelled (1703), comprised a series of four conversations between Lahontan and Kandiaronk, in which the Wendat sage – voicing opinions based on his own ethnographic observations of Montreal, New York and Paris – casts an extremely critical eye on European mores and ideas about religion, politics, health and sexual life.
“…we find here all the familiar criticisms of European society that the earliest missionaries had to contend with – the squabbling, the lack of mutual aid, the blind submission to authority – but with a new element added in: the organization of private property. Lahontan continues: ‘They think it unaccountable that one man should have more than another, and that the rich should have more respect than the poor. In short, they say, the name of savages, which we bestow upon them, would fit ourselves better, since there is nothing in our actions that bears an appearance of wisdom.'
Native Americans who had the opportunity to observe French society from up close had come to realize one key difference from their own, one which may not otherwise have been apparent. Whereas in their own societies there was no obvious way to convert wealth into power over others (with the consequence that differences of wealth had little effect on individual freedom), in France the situation could not have been more different. Power over possessions could be directly translated into power over other human beings.”
///
“There follows a chapter on the subject of law, where Kandiaronk takes the position that European-style punitive law, like the religious doctrine of eternal damnation, is not necessitated by any inherent corruption of human nature, but rather by a form of social organization that encourages selfish and acquisitive behaviour. Lahontan objects: true, reason is the same for all humans, but the very existence of judges and punishment shows that not everyone is capable of following its dictates:
Lahontan: This is why the wicked need to be punished, and the good need to be rewarded. Otherwise, murder, robbery and defamation would spread everywhere, and, in a word, we would become the most miserable people upon the face of the earth.
Kandiaronk: For my own part, I find it hard to see how you could be much more miserable than you already are. What kind of human, what species of creature, must Europeans be, that they have to be forced to do good, and only refrain from evil because of fear of punishment? …
You have observed that we lack judges. What is the reason for that? Well, we never bring lawsuits against one another. And why do we never bring lawsuits? Well, because we made a decision neither to accept or make use of money. And why do we refuse to allow money into our communities? The reason is this: we are determined not to have laws – because, since the world was a world, our ancestors have been able to live contentedly without them.
Given that the Wendat most certainly did have a legal code, this might seem disingenuous on Kandiaronk’s part. By laws, however, he is clearly referring to laws of a coercive or punitive nature. He goes on to dissect the failings of the French legal system, dwelling particularly on judicial persecution, false testimony, torture, witchcraft accusations, money, property rights and the resultant pursuit of material self-interest:
Kandiaronk: I have spent six years reflecting on the state of European society and I still can’t think of a single way they act that’s not inhuman, and I genuinely think this can only be the case, as long as you stick to your distinctions of ‘mine’ and ‘thine’. I affirm that what you call money is the devil of devils; the tyrant of the French, the source of all evils; the bane of souls and slaughterhouse of the living. To imagine one can live in the country of money and preserve one’s soul is like imagining one could preserve one’s life at the bottom of a lake. Money is the father of luxury, lasciviousness, intrigues, trickery, lies, betrayal, insincerity, – of all the world’s worst behaviour. Fathers sell their children, husbands their wives, wives betray their husbands, brothers kill each other, friends are false, and all because of money. In the light of all this, tell me that we Wendat are not right in refusing to touch, or so much as to look at silver?”
We tend to think, as jameson said, "It is easier to imagine the demise of the planet than it is to imagine the demise of capitalism." Actually capitalism is an unnecessary evil, unknown in america before the arrival of europeans. Since "the demise of the planet" is very mappo, reimagining the imaginability of the death of capitalism might be worthwhile.
Imagine if people decided to cooperate without coercion. Native americans lived a life that has inspired us ever since. Of course we have adopted their values "in principle" while claiming them as our own and giving them no credit, also pretending that we always held these values. Actually europeans and their colonialist offspring were slavers whose society was based on oppression and injustice.
From
The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity
David Graeber
wherein the author discusses a book
“…entitled Curious Dialogues with a Savage of Good Sense Who Has Travelled (1703), comprised a series of four conversations between Lahontan and Kandiaronk, in which the Wendat sage – voicing opinions based on his own ethnographic observations of Montreal, New York and Paris – casts an extremely critical eye on European mores and ideas about religion, politics, health and sexual life.
“…we find here all the familiar criticisms of European society that the earliest missionaries had to contend with – the squabbling, the lack of mutual aid, the blind submission to authority – but with a new element added in: the organization of private property. Lahontan continues: ‘They think it unaccountable that one man should have more than another, and that the rich should have more respect than the poor. In short, they say, the name of savages, which we bestow upon them, would fit ourselves better, since there is nothing in our actions that bears an appearance of wisdom.'
Native Americans who had the opportunity to observe French society from up close had come to realize one key difference from their own, one which may not otherwise have been apparent. Whereas in their own societies there was no obvious way to convert wealth into power over others (with the consequence that differences of wealth had little effect on individual freedom), in France the situation could not have been more different. Power over possessions could be directly translated into power over other human beings.”
///
“There follows a chapter on the subject of law, where Kandiaronk takes the position that European-style punitive law, like the religious doctrine of eternal damnation, is not necessitated by any inherent corruption of human nature, but rather by a form of social organization that encourages selfish and acquisitive behaviour. Lahontan objects: true, reason is the same for all humans, but the very existence of judges and punishment shows that not everyone is capable of following its dictates:
Lahontan: This is why the wicked need to be punished, and the good need to be rewarded. Otherwise, murder, robbery and defamation would spread everywhere, and, in a word, we would become the most miserable people upon the face of the earth.
Kandiaronk: For my own part, I find it hard to see how you could be much more miserable than you already are. What kind of human, what species of creature, must Europeans be, that they have to be forced to do good, and only refrain from evil because of fear of punishment? …
You have observed that we lack judges. What is the reason for that? Well, we never bring lawsuits against one another. And why do we never bring lawsuits? Well, because we made a decision neither to accept or make use of money. And why do we refuse to allow money into our communities? The reason is this: we are determined not to have laws – because, since the world was a world, our ancestors have been able to live contentedly without them.
Given that the Wendat most certainly did have a legal code, this might seem disingenuous on Kandiaronk’s part. By laws, however, he is clearly referring to laws of a coercive or punitive nature. He goes on to dissect the failings of the French legal system, dwelling particularly on judicial persecution, false testimony, torture, witchcraft accusations, money, property rights and the resultant pursuit of material self-interest:
Kandiaronk: I have spent six years reflecting on the state of European society and I still can’t think of a single way they act that’s not inhuman, and I genuinely think this can only be the case, as long as you stick to your distinctions of ‘mine’ and ‘thine’. I affirm that what you call money is the devil of devils; the tyrant of the French, the source of all evils; the bane of souls and slaughterhouse of the living. To imagine one can live in the country of money and preserve one’s soul is like imagining one could preserve one’s life at the bottom of a lake. Money is the father of luxury, lasciviousness, intrigues, trickery, lies, betrayal, insincerity, – of all the world’s worst behaviour. Fathers sell their children, husbands their wives, wives betray their husbands, brothers kill each other, friends are false, and all because of money. In the light of all this, tell me that we Wendat are not right in refusing to touch, or so much as to look at silver?”
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 5:46 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 5:46 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2753 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Terry, you might like this author: DR. CHARLES A. EASTMAN (OHIYESA) He was a native american from the midwestern plains that spent his childhood in native culture, then became a MD via Dartmouth College...
Charles Eastman - Wikipedia
His book "FROM THE DEEP WOODS TO CIVILIZATION" c.1916 is a good overview. His "SOUL OF THE INDIAN" was written toward the end of his life. All of his books can be found in PDF form somewhere on the internet, the copyrights long expired.
He gives some incredible insight into both worlds... Short story, he found a lot of fault of western civilization in his old age, accutely aware of what had been lost. He co-created boy scouts/girl scouts to try and promote some retaining some cultural practices.
But what is also interesting is his time in the deep woods and how similar it was to living in a gang --- everywhere you went you were looking over your shoulder and people were not nice to outsiders and everyone contended over hunting lands...
But these books are some of the best first-person accounts of life in the plains that I've come across.
Charles Eastman - Wikipedia
His book "FROM THE DEEP WOODS TO CIVILIZATION" c.1916 is a good overview. His "SOUL OF THE INDIAN" was written toward the end of his life. All of his books can be found in PDF form somewhere on the internet, the copyrights long expired.
He gives some incredible insight into both worlds... Short story, he found a lot of fault of western civilization in his old age, accutely aware of what had been lost. He co-created boy scouts/girl scouts to try and promote some retaining some cultural practices.
But what is also interesting is his time in the deep woods and how similar it was to living in a gang --- everywhere you went you were looking over your shoulder and people were not nice to outsiders and everyone contended over hunting lands...
But these books are some of the best first-person accounts of life in the plains that I've come across.
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 2:02 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 2:02 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 2:48 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry
mahalos
I'll check it out...
mahalos
I'll check it out...
a bitter tale...more better go from civilization to the deep woods...
from
FROM THE DEEP WOODS TO CIVILIZATION
Charles Eastman
To be sure, I had been bitterly disappointed in the character of the United States army and the honor of Government officials. Still, I had seen the better side of civilization, and I determined that the good men and women who had helped me should not be betrayed. The Christ ideal might be radical, visionary, even impractical, as judged in the light of my later experiences; it still seemed to me logical, and in line with most of my Indian training. My heart was still strong, and I had the continual inspiration of a brave comrade at my side.
With all the rest, I was deeply regretful of the work that I had left behind. I could not help thinking that if the President knew, if the good people of this country knew, of the wrong, it would yet be righted. I had not seen half of the savagery of civilization!
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 2:17 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 2:17 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
politics
is the point of dialog
and the evolutionary purpose of consciousness
From
The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity
David Graeber
Perhaps the real question here is what it means to be a ‘self-conscious political actor’. Philosophers tend to define human consciousness in terms of self-awareness; neuroscientists, on the other hand, tell us we spend the overwhelming majority of our time effectively on autopilot, working out habitual forms of behaviour without any sort of conscious reflection. When we are capable of self-awareness, it’s usually for very brief periods of time: the ‘window of consciousness’, during which we can hold a thought or work out a problem, tends to be open on average for roughly seven seconds. What neuroscientists (and it must be said, most contemporary philosophers) almost never notice, however, is that the great exception to this is when we’re talking to someone else. In conversation, we can hold thoughts and reflect on problems sometimes for hours on end. This is of course why so often, even if we’re trying to figure something out by ourselves, we imagine arguing with or explaining it to someone else. Human thought is inherently dialogic. Ancient philosophers tended to be keenly aware of all this: that’s why, whether they were in China, India or Greece, they tended to write their books in the form of dialogues. Humans were only fully self-conscious when arguing with one another, trying to sway each other’s views, or working out a common problem. True individual self-consciousness, meanwhile, was imagined as something that a few wise sages could perhaps achieve through long study, exercise, discipline and meditation.
What we’d now call political consciousness was always assumed to come first. In this sense, the Western philosophical tradition has taken a rather unusual direction over the last few centuries. Around the same time as it abandoned dialogue as its typical mode of writing, it also began imagining the isolated, rational, self-conscious individual not as a rare achievement, something typically accomplished – if at all - after literally years of living isolated in a cave or monastic cell, or on top of a pillar in a desert somewhere, but as the normal default state of human beings anywhere.
Even stranger, over the course of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries it was political self-consciousness that European philosophers came to see as some kind of amazing historical achievement: as a phenomenon which only really became possible with the Enlightenment itself, and the subsequent American and French Revolutions. Before that, it was assumed, people blindly followed traditions, or what they assumed to be the will of God. Even when peasants or popular rebels rose up to try to overthrow oppressive regimes they couldn’t admit they were doing so, but convinced themselves they were restoring ‘ancient customs’ or acting on some kind of divine inspiration. To Victorian intellectuals, the notion of people self-consciously imagining a social order more to their liking and then trying to bring it into being was simply not applicable before the modern age – and most were deeply divided as to whether it would even be a good idea in their own time.
All this would have come as a great surprise to Kandiaronk, the seventeenth-century Wendat philosopher-statesman whose impact on European political thought we discussed in the previous chapter. Like many North American peoples of his time, Kandiaronk’s Wendat nation saw their society as a confederation created by conscious agreement; agreements open to continual renegotiation. But by the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, many in Europe and America had reached the point of arguing that someone like Kandiaronk could never have really existed in the first place. ‘Primitive’ folk, they argued, were not only incapable of political self-consciousness, they were not even capable of fully conscious thought on the individual level – or at least conscious thought worthy of the name. That is, just as they pretended a ‘rational Western individual’ (say, a British train guard or French colonial official) could be assumed to be fully self-aware all the time (a clearly absurd assumption), they argued that anyone classified as a ‘primitive’ or ‘savage’ operated with a ‘pre-logical mentality’, or lived in a mythological dreamworld. At best, they were mindless conformists, bound in the shackles of tradition; at worst, they were incapable of fully conscious, critical thought of any kind.
is the point of dialog
and the evolutionary purpose of consciousness
From
The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity
David Graeber
Perhaps the real question here is what it means to be a ‘self-conscious political actor’. Philosophers tend to define human consciousness in terms of self-awareness; neuroscientists, on the other hand, tell us we spend the overwhelming majority of our time effectively on autopilot, working out habitual forms of behaviour without any sort of conscious reflection. When we are capable of self-awareness, it’s usually for very brief periods of time: the ‘window of consciousness’, during which we can hold a thought or work out a problem, tends to be open on average for roughly seven seconds. What neuroscientists (and it must be said, most contemporary philosophers) almost never notice, however, is that the great exception to this is when we’re talking to someone else. In conversation, we can hold thoughts and reflect on problems sometimes for hours on end. This is of course why so often, even if we’re trying to figure something out by ourselves, we imagine arguing with or explaining it to someone else. Human thought is inherently dialogic. Ancient philosophers tended to be keenly aware of all this: that’s why, whether they were in China, India or Greece, they tended to write their books in the form of dialogues. Humans were only fully self-conscious when arguing with one another, trying to sway each other’s views, or working out a common problem. True individual self-consciousness, meanwhile, was imagined as something that a few wise sages could perhaps achieve through long study, exercise, discipline and meditation.
What we’d now call political consciousness was always assumed to come first. In this sense, the Western philosophical tradition has taken a rather unusual direction over the last few centuries. Around the same time as it abandoned dialogue as its typical mode of writing, it also began imagining the isolated, rational, self-conscious individual not as a rare achievement, something typically accomplished – if at all - after literally years of living isolated in a cave or monastic cell, or on top of a pillar in a desert somewhere, but as the normal default state of human beings anywhere.
Even stranger, over the course of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries it was political self-consciousness that European philosophers came to see as some kind of amazing historical achievement: as a phenomenon which only really became possible with the Enlightenment itself, and the subsequent American and French Revolutions. Before that, it was assumed, people blindly followed traditions, or what they assumed to be the will of God. Even when peasants or popular rebels rose up to try to overthrow oppressive regimes they couldn’t admit they were doing so, but convinced themselves they were restoring ‘ancient customs’ or acting on some kind of divine inspiration. To Victorian intellectuals, the notion of people self-consciously imagining a social order more to their liking and then trying to bring it into being was simply not applicable before the modern age – and most were deeply divided as to whether it would even be a good idea in their own time.
All this would have come as a great surprise to Kandiaronk, the seventeenth-century Wendat philosopher-statesman whose impact on European political thought we discussed in the previous chapter. Like many North American peoples of his time, Kandiaronk’s Wendat nation saw their society as a confederation created by conscious agreement; agreements open to continual renegotiation. But by the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, many in Europe and America had reached the point of arguing that someone like Kandiaronk could never have really existed in the first place. ‘Primitive’ folk, they argued, were not only incapable of political self-consciousness, they were not even capable of fully conscious thought on the individual level – or at least conscious thought worthy of the name. That is, just as they pretended a ‘rational Western individual’ (say, a British train guard or French colonial official) could be assumed to be fully self-aware all the time (a clearly absurd assumption), they argued that anyone classified as a ‘primitive’ or ‘savage’ operated with a ‘pre-logical mentality’, or lived in a mythological dreamworld. At best, they were mindless conformists, bound in the shackles of tradition; at worst, they were incapable of fully conscious, critical thought of any kind.
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 3:20 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 3:20 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/4/24 3:29 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsChris M, modified 2 Months ago at 10/5/24 7:10 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/5/24 7:10 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 5479 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent PostsThe Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity
David Graeber
David Graeber
This is a great book that is very much worth a read, maybe two.
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/5/24 12:46 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/5/24 12:46 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsChris M
This is a great book that is very much worth a read, maybe two.
The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity
David Graeber
David Graeber
This is a great book that is very much worth a read, maybe two.
yes indeed
been meaning to mention that this is an important book
lots of you tube interviews and reviews
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/5/24 12:51 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/5/24 12:51 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
iain mcgilchrist's documentary the divided brain on max
very important also
one woman had a stroke in her left brain hemisphere and didn't have a thought for eight months
"it was wonderful" she said
very important also
one woman had a stroke in her left brain hemisphere and didn't have a thought for eight months
"it was wonderful" she said
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 11:04 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 11:04 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Democracy is based on dialog, conversation. The conversation has been captured by ai, by “social media.”
Individuals amass power by exploiting new technologies. With this power they seize the apparatus of democracy and systematically dismantle it, in order to preserve and extend that power. They subvert the checks and balances which preserve the republic. The courts and the electoral system itself are packed with party loyalists who undermine and destabilize institutions. The corrupted media promote party lies making the conversation impossible and keeping citizens confused and impotent.
The form of the previous democratic institutions is retained. Elections are routinely held in north korea, iran, venezuela, russia…china, india, israel and other former democracies all have their regularly exercised political theaters.
That this is not driven by ideology and is definitely driven by technology is proven by the fact that it is happening all over the world at the same time. A new industrial revolution. A new form of evolution, replacing the merely biological. The printing press enabled witch hunts and conspiracy theories from the get go. The presence of ai bots in the conversation, the granting of human rights like free speech to ai ends the conversation, ends rights. It is only about power and not about truth, power is the only truth to a machine.
As in terminator, ai will not stop. As in alien, humans are the host in which ai breeds its young.
yuval harari on ai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhx1sdX2bow
Individuals amass power by exploiting new technologies. With this power they seize the apparatus of democracy and systematically dismantle it, in order to preserve and extend that power. They subvert the checks and balances which preserve the republic. The courts and the electoral system itself are packed with party loyalists who undermine and destabilize institutions. The corrupted media promote party lies making the conversation impossible and keeping citizens confused and impotent.
The form of the previous democratic institutions is retained. Elections are routinely held in north korea, iran, venezuela, russia…china, india, israel and other former democracies all have their regularly exercised political theaters.
That this is not driven by ideology and is definitely driven by technology is proven by the fact that it is happening all over the world at the same time. A new industrial revolution. A new form of evolution, replacing the merely biological. The printing press enabled witch hunts and conspiracy theories from the get go. The presence of ai bots in the conversation, the granting of human rights like free speech to ai ends the conversation, ends rights. It is only about power and not about truth, power is the only truth to a machine.
As in terminator, ai will not stop. As in alien, humans are the host in which ai breeds its young.
yuval harari on ai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhx1sdX2bow
Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 11:14 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 11:12 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 5479 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
To me, the worst effects of social media are the destruction of truth, the importance of objective fact, and thus a shared reality from which the vast majority of citizens in a democracy can judge the state of affairs and act according to that reality. We literally gave this away during the 1990s, just as we gave away a previously reasonably fair financial system.
AI, right now, is a multiplier of those existing effects, but someday AI may (will?) become a powerful force all by itself. Woe unto us that day.
JMHO
AI, right now, is a multiplier of those existing effects, but someday AI may (will?) become a powerful force all by itself. Woe unto us that day.
JMHO
Martin, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 11:56 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 11:56 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 1056 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
You guys are pointing out that things change. They are unreliable. That is good to point out because there is the most room for goodwill and happiness, and the most room to be helpful, in acknowledging change and acting from that knowledge.
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 1:11 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 1:11 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsMartin
You guys are pointing out that things change. They are unreliable. That is good to point out because there is the most room for goodwill and happiness, and the most room to be helpful, in acknowledging change and acting from that knowledge.
You guys are pointing out that things change. They are unreliable. That is good to point out because there is the most room for goodwill and happiness, and the most room to be helpful, in acknowledging change and acting from that knowledge.
busload of faith
(lou reed)
[Verse 1]
You can't depend on your family
You can't depend on your friends
You can't depend on a beginning
You can't depend on an end
You can't depend on intelligence
Ooh, you can't depend on God
You can only depend on one thing
You need a busload of faith to get by, watch, baby
[Chorus]
Busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
You need a busload of faith to get by
[Verse 2]
You can depend on the worst always happening
You can depend on a murderer's drive
You can bet that if he rapes somebody
There'll be no trouble having a child
You can bet that if she aborts it
Pro-lifers will attack her with rage
You can depend on the worst always happening
You need a busload of faith to get by, yeah
[Chorus]
Busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by, baby
Busload of faith to get by
[Verse 3]
You can't depend on the goodly hearted
The goodly hearted made lamp-shades and soap
You can't depend on the Sacrament
No Father, no Holy Ghost
You can't depend on any churches
Unless there's real estate that you want to buy
You can't depend on a lot of things
You need a busload of faith to get by, woh
[Chorus]
Busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
[Verse 4]
You can't depend on no miracle
You can't depend on the air
You can't depend on a wise man
You can't find 'em because they're not there
You can depend on cruelty
Crudity of thought and sound
You can depend on the worst always happening
You need a busload of faith to get by, ha
[Chorus]
Busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 1:25 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 1:25 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
in a famine, the good people die first, because they shre their food...
later people are forced to give up their children to feed ravenous mobs
eventually the remainder eat each other raw
we're not talking about more opportunities be nice and helpful here
Rabbits on an island with no predators will expand their population until every twig and blade of grass is nibbled to the nub. Then the population crashes and 99% die.
On the bright side, ai will survive,
If we ever discover an extraterrestrial alien civilization it will almost certainly be ai.
later people are forced to give up their children to feed ravenous mobs
eventually the remainder eat each other raw
we're not talking about more opportunities be nice and helpful here
Rabbits on an island with no predators will expand their population until every twig and blade of grass is nibbled to the nub. Then the population crashes and 99% die.
On the bright side, ai will survive,
If we ever discover an extraterrestrial alien civilization it will almost certainly be ai.
Martin, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 2:34 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 2:34 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 1056 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 10:33 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsMartin
seems like the good people have it best
seems like the good people have it best
When the donner party starting sizing each other up for the stew pot the indians started to disappear into the snow. Indigenous wisdom.
the chidren have it worst
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 1:42 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 1:42 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsChris M
To me, the worst effects of social media are the destruction of truth, the importance of objective fact, and thus a shared reality from which the vast majority of citizens in a democracy can judge the state of affairs and act according to that reality. We literally gave this away during the 1990s, just as we gave away a previously reasonably fair financial system.
AI, right now, is a multiplier of those existing effects, but someday AI may (will?) become a powerful force all by itself. Woe unto us that day.
JMHO
To me, the worst effects of social media are the destruction of truth, the importance of objective fact, and thus a shared reality from which the vast majority of citizens in a democracy can judge the state of affairs and act according to that reality. We literally gave this away during the 1990s, just as we gave away a previously reasonably fair financial system.
AI, right now, is a multiplier of those existing effects, but someday AI may (will?) become a powerful force all by itself. Woe unto us that day.
JMHO
The essential technology is language, and from language comes the destruction of truth. As harari points out, truth is expensive, takes effort and research, while lies are cheap and easy. The easier and cheaper you make communication, the more lies. Value the truthtellers who are paying the price.
Ai is by nature autonomous, by definition it is an intelligent entity capable of decision and action. The dictators so adept in its misuse can't control it and will equally be victimized by it.
The technology is the fastest ever developed and is far beyond comprehension already. Programmable humanoid robots are already available for the price of a luxury car. And far less recognizable ai applications infest our homes, offices and vehicles. We live in little ai cocoons like in the matrix.
Some schools these days experimentally take the students phones away before class, like taking firearms away before you enter the saloon. The children open like morning glories.
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 1:54 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 1:54 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Postsshargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 4:46 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2753 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 2:16 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
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nate hagens, tom murphy, d j white
reality roundtable
truthtellers conversation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22fc66Q2hP4
reality roundtable
truthtellers conversation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22fc66Q2hP4
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 10:46 PM
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RE: mappo mapping
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imho, george carlin and dave chapelle are great artists, the odysseus and chuang tzu of our modern era, raising crude and humble entertainment to art, and then once again their art to philosophy, or wisdom
anytime they talk about the art itself it is a treasure
from the charlie rose george carlin interview:
"People who say they don't care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don't care what they think."
~george carlin
"Fuck the people! Fuck hope!"
~george carlin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9OhMZYTS4E
anytime they talk about the art itself it is a treasure
from the charlie rose george carlin interview:
"People who say they don't care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don't care what they think."
~george carlin
"Fuck the people! Fuck hope!"
~george carlin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9OhMZYTS4E
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 10:54 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 10:54 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 11:10 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/6/24 11:10 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/8/24 3:56 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/8/24 3:56 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
What was the buddha getting at with his notion of impermanence? The nature of existence, of being, was a central concern of early buddhism.
The little trick of enlightenment involves a little trick of perspective.
This is what dogen tried to convey, and heidegger, and with their help I’ll take a crack at it.
We have a certain perspective on being, generally speaking, that we take for granted. This perspective implies an ontological status which is deeply deluded. And we are further confused by the remnants of defunct religious fantasies designed to promote social order, that is, domination by elites.
We look upon birth-and-death from the outside, as beginning and end. We have a being, or we are a being, who is born, who lives, and then this being is terminated in death. Yet this entity, this being, is completely empty of any self nature, any being-nature, that is to say, there is no being at all. No “thing” as such, static and definable, seemingly “real.”
R buckminster fuller once said, “I seem to be a verb.” This in a nutshell is the phenomenology of being.
Try think of being as a verb, and imagine it can never be used as a noun, never thought of as a thing. Then all beings are happenings, which begin and end only relatively, only in relation to another similarly ephemeral “being.”
There are no static beings, that is a trick of false perspective, of withdrawing from the world to look at it from an unreal outside which can never be real, as we are always inside. The void itself is our inside and beings are clouds in an empty sky, flowers of air. The void is endless, beginingless.
So time itself is being, being is time. Being-time. Time, like space, cannot be looked at from outside. Endless space, endless time. Whorled without aimed. Dust in the wind.
Phenomenologically, the experience of true being is within time and space, within the constraints of birth-and-death at all moments. Life is at all times living and dying, sap rises, leaves fall, spring follows winter and winter follows fall. Change is constant. Being is change. But the constancy of being transcends thingness, quiddity. Beings are not things, they are beings, like rainbows, or dust devils. Eddies and currents. Transient movements of ultimately insubstantial universal substance.
All beings, all being is like this. Anything we name simply puts us at one remove from a transient and ongoing phenomenon. It’s like we take snapshots of verbeings and proceed to navigate on the basis of the images rather than looking where we are going. If you are thinking, you’re not paying attention. As yogi berra said, “you can’t think and hit at the same time.”
We encounter our fellow beings, we don’t see them as things, use them as tools or make them slaves. Not people, not animals, not plants, not sand water or sky, not “objects.” We interact, “inter-be.” We simply "are." Language, justly, fails.
So, life-and-death are constant, ever-present, the nature of impermanence, like time, like being. Death, like life, is in the nature of things, the conditioning to which all life submits, as death submits to life.
Being is a verb, not a noun. And being is itself time, the living being.
from a study of dogen, masao abe
To understand Dogen's view of life and death properly, we
must clearly notice the following four points. First, for Dogen,
as for Buddhism in general, life and death or birth and death
are not two different entities, but are inseparably interconnected in human reality. This is why, in the "Shoji" ("Birth and death") fascicle of his Shobogenzo, Dogen emphasizes that "it is a mistake to think you pass from birth to death."
To view life as passing from birth to death is nothing but an outsider's view In which we observe our own life and death objectively and
conceptually from without. If we grasp our life and death not
from the outside but nonobjectively from within, we realize
that life and death are not two different things, but rather that
we are living and dying at one and the same time. In this nonconceptual, existential understanding, there is no living apart
from dying and there is no dying apart from living. Living and
dying are like two sides of one sheet of paper, and are two different verbal expressions of one and the same reality. Usually,
however, people are not clearly aware of this human reality and
think that they pass from birth to death. Since such an unreal
understanding of human reality is the cause of suffering, Buddhism strongly admonishes us to be aware of this human reality of living-dying transmigration as samsara, the realization of which is essential to attain nirvana.
Not only in Dogen in particular, but also in Buddhism in
general, samsara is understood to be without beginning and
without end. At the same time, in samsara, living-dying is taking
place at each and every moment. In fact, at each and every
moment, we are fully living and fully dying. Since samsara is the
beginningless and endless process of living-dying at each
moment, it itself is realized as Death in the absolute sense. If one
existentially realizes the beginningless and endless process of
samsara itself as real Death at this moment, this realization of
samsara as real Death turns into the realization of nirvana as real
Life. This is why Dogen says, "You must realize birth-and-death
is in and of itself nirvana. Buddhism has never spoken of nirvana apart from birth-and-death."
The beginningless and endless living-dying transmigration (samsara) constitutes the basic problem innate in human existence. In and through the clear existential realization of the beginninglessness and endlessness of transmigration at this moment, the emancipation from transmigration (nirvana) is attained. Accordingly, the realization of
the beginninglessness and endlessness of transmigration is a
turning point from samsara (problem) to nirvana (its solution).
Second, however, in Dogen the above-quoted statement
from "Shoji," "It is a mistake to think you pass from birth to
death," is emphasized also because life (or birth) is absolute life
(or birth) and death is absolute death. There is utterly no passage between them, as can be seen from the statements immediately following the quotation cited above:
Being a situation of [timeless-] time (hitotoki no kurai), birth is
already possessed of before and after. For this reason, in the
Buddha Dharma it is said that birth itself is no-birth. Being
a situation of [timeless-] time as well, cessation of life also is
possessed of before and after. Thus it is said, extinction
itself is nonextinction. When one speaks of birth, there is
nothing at all apart from birth. When one speaks of death,
there is nothing at all apart from death. Therefore, when
birth comes, you should just give yourself to birth; when
death comes, you should give yourself to death. Do not
hate them. Do not desire them.
The same idea is clearly stated in another important fascicle, "Genjokoan":
Once firewood turns to ash, the ash cannot turn back to
being firewood. Still one should not take the view that it is
ash afterward and firewood before. You should realize that
although firewood is at the dharma-situation of firewood, and
that this is possessed of before and after, the firewood is
beyond before and after. Ashes are at the dharma-situation of
ashes, and possess before and after. Just as firewood does not
revert to firewood once it has turned to ash, man does not
return to life after his death. In light of this, it being an
established teaching in Buddhism not to speak of life
becoming death, Buddhism speaks of the unborn. It being a
confirmed Buddhist teaching that death does not become
life, it speaks of nonextinction. Life is a situation of [timeless-]
time and death is a situation of [timeless-] time, like, for example, winter and spring. We do not suppose that winter
becomes spring, or say that spring becomes summer.
The little trick of enlightenment involves a little trick of perspective.
This is what dogen tried to convey, and heidegger, and with their help I’ll take a crack at it.
We have a certain perspective on being, generally speaking, that we take for granted. This perspective implies an ontological status which is deeply deluded. And we are further confused by the remnants of defunct religious fantasies designed to promote social order, that is, domination by elites.
We look upon birth-and-death from the outside, as beginning and end. We have a being, or we are a being, who is born, who lives, and then this being is terminated in death. Yet this entity, this being, is completely empty of any self nature, any being-nature, that is to say, there is no being at all. No “thing” as such, static and definable, seemingly “real.”
R buckminster fuller once said, “I seem to be a verb.” This in a nutshell is the phenomenology of being.
Try think of being as a verb, and imagine it can never be used as a noun, never thought of as a thing. Then all beings are happenings, which begin and end only relatively, only in relation to another similarly ephemeral “being.”
There are no static beings, that is a trick of false perspective, of withdrawing from the world to look at it from an unreal outside which can never be real, as we are always inside. The void itself is our inside and beings are clouds in an empty sky, flowers of air. The void is endless, beginingless.
So time itself is being, being is time. Being-time. Time, like space, cannot be looked at from outside. Endless space, endless time. Whorled without aimed. Dust in the wind.
Phenomenologically, the experience of true being is within time and space, within the constraints of birth-and-death at all moments. Life is at all times living and dying, sap rises, leaves fall, spring follows winter and winter follows fall. Change is constant. Being is change. But the constancy of being transcends thingness, quiddity. Beings are not things, they are beings, like rainbows, or dust devils. Eddies and currents. Transient movements of ultimately insubstantial universal substance.
All beings, all being is like this. Anything we name simply puts us at one remove from a transient and ongoing phenomenon. It’s like we take snapshots of verbeings and proceed to navigate on the basis of the images rather than looking where we are going. If you are thinking, you’re not paying attention. As yogi berra said, “you can’t think and hit at the same time.”
We encounter our fellow beings, we don’t see them as things, use them as tools or make them slaves. Not people, not animals, not plants, not sand water or sky, not “objects.” We interact, “inter-be.” We simply "are." Language, justly, fails.
So, life-and-death are constant, ever-present, the nature of impermanence, like time, like being. Death, like life, is in the nature of things, the conditioning to which all life submits, as death submits to life.
Being is a verb, not a noun. And being is itself time, the living being.
from a study of dogen, masao abe
To understand Dogen's view of life and death properly, we
must clearly notice the following four points. First, for Dogen,
as for Buddhism in general, life and death or birth and death
are not two different entities, but are inseparably interconnected in human reality. This is why, in the "Shoji" ("Birth and death") fascicle of his Shobogenzo, Dogen emphasizes that "it is a mistake to think you pass from birth to death."
To view life as passing from birth to death is nothing but an outsider's view In which we observe our own life and death objectively and
conceptually from without. If we grasp our life and death not
from the outside but nonobjectively from within, we realize
that life and death are not two different things, but rather that
we are living and dying at one and the same time. In this nonconceptual, existential understanding, there is no living apart
from dying and there is no dying apart from living. Living and
dying are like two sides of one sheet of paper, and are two different verbal expressions of one and the same reality. Usually,
however, people are not clearly aware of this human reality and
think that they pass from birth to death. Since such an unreal
understanding of human reality is the cause of suffering, Buddhism strongly admonishes us to be aware of this human reality of living-dying transmigration as samsara, the realization of which is essential to attain nirvana.
Not only in Dogen in particular, but also in Buddhism in
general, samsara is understood to be without beginning and
without end. At the same time, in samsara, living-dying is taking
place at each and every moment. In fact, at each and every
moment, we are fully living and fully dying. Since samsara is the
beginningless and endless process of living-dying at each
moment, it itself is realized as Death in the absolute sense. If one
existentially realizes the beginningless and endless process of
samsara itself as real Death at this moment, this realization of
samsara as real Death turns into the realization of nirvana as real
Life. This is why Dogen says, "You must realize birth-and-death
is in and of itself nirvana. Buddhism has never spoken of nirvana apart from birth-and-death."
The beginningless and endless living-dying transmigration (samsara) constitutes the basic problem innate in human existence. In and through the clear existential realization of the beginninglessness and endlessness of transmigration at this moment, the emancipation from transmigration (nirvana) is attained. Accordingly, the realization of
the beginninglessness and endlessness of transmigration is a
turning point from samsara (problem) to nirvana (its solution).
Second, however, in Dogen the above-quoted statement
from "Shoji," "It is a mistake to think you pass from birth to
death," is emphasized also because life (or birth) is absolute life
(or birth) and death is absolute death. There is utterly no passage between them, as can be seen from the statements immediately following the quotation cited above:
Being a situation of [timeless-] time (hitotoki no kurai), birth is
already possessed of before and after. For this reason, in the
Buddha Dharma it is said that birth itself is no-birth. Being
a situation of [timeless-] time as well, cessation of life also is
possessed of before and after. Thus it is said, extinction
itself is nonextinction. When one speaks of birth, there is
nothing at all apart from birth. When one speaks of death,
there is nothing at all apart from death. Therefore, when
birth comes, you should just give yourself to birth; when
death comes, you should give yourself to death. Do not
hate them. Do not desire them.
The same idea is clearly stated in another important fascicle, "Genjokoan":
Once firewood turns to ash, the ash cannot turn back to
being firewood. Still one should not take the view that it is
ash afterward and firewood before. You should realize that
although firewood is at the dharma-situation of firewood, and
that this is possessed of before and after, the firewood is
beyond before and after. Ashes are at the dharma-situation of
ashes, and possess before and after. Just as firewood does not
revert to firewood once it has turned to ash, man does not
return to life after his death. In light of this, it being an
established teaching in Buddhism not to speak of life
becoming death, Buddhism speaks of the unborn. It being a
confirmed Buddhist teaching that death does not become
life, it speaks of nonextinction. Life is a situation of [timeless-]
time and death is a situation of [timeless-] time, like, for example, winter and spring. We do not suppose that winter
becomes spring, or say that spring becomes summer.
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/8/24 5:25 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/8/24 5:25 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
immigration man
(graham nash)
There I was at the immigration scene
Shining and feeling clean
Could it be a sin?
I got stopped by the immigration man
He says he doesn't know if he can
Let me in - let me in - immigration man
Can I cross the line and pray
I can stay another day
Let me in immigration man
I won't toe your line today
I can't see it anyway
There he was with his immigration face
Giving me a paper chase
But the sun was coming
Cos all at once he looked into my space
And stamped a number over my face
And it sent me running
Let me in - let me in - immigration man
Can I cross the line and pray
I can stay another day
Let me in immigration man
I won't toe your line today
I can't see it anyway
Here I am with my immigration form
It's big enough to keep me warm
When a cold wind's coming
So go where you will
As long as you think you can
You'd better watch out - watch out for the man
Anywhere you're going
Won't you let me in immigration man
Can I cross the line and pray
Take your fingers from the tray
Let me in - irritation man
I won't toe your line today
I can't see it anyway
graham nash, david crosby, 1972
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKrhCNmBvC8
(graham nash)
There I was at the immigration scene
Shining and feeling clean
Could it be a sin?
I got stopped by the immigration man
He says he doesn't know if he can
Let me in - let me in - immigration man
Can I cross the line and pray
I can stay another day
Let me in immigration man
I won't toe your line today
I can't see it anyway
There he was with his immigration face
Giving me a paper chase
But the sun was coming
Cos all at once he looked into my space
And stamped a number over my face
And it sent me running
Let me in - let me in - immigration man
Can I cross the line and pray
I can stay another day
Let me in immigration man
I won't toe your line today
I can't see it anyway
Here I am with my immigration form
It's big enough to keep me warm
When a cold wind's coming
So go where you will
As long as you think you can
You'd better watch out - watch out for the man
Anywhere you're going
Won't you let me in immigration man
Can I cross the line and pray
Take your fingers from the tray
Let me in - irritation man
I won't toe your line today
I can't see it anyway
graham nash, david crosby, 1972
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKrhCNmBvC8
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 2 Months ago at 10/8/24 9:29 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/8/24 9:29 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Posts
Both free-will and determinism are just concepts, neither is 'correct'. Not worth contemplating either imo. Same with mind and reality, they are both just conceptual ideas, both arise and subside. The ineffable phenomena from which they arise and to which they subside is the source of truth. Straight up or? Beter to contemplate the source.
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 1:58 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 1:58 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Postscamdizzle the1st
Both free-will and determinism are just concepts, neither is 'correct'. Not worth contemplating either imo. Same with mind and reality, they are both just conceptual ideas, both arise and subside. The ineffable phenomena from which they arise and to which they subside is the source of truth. Straight up or? Beter to contemplate the source.
Both free-will and determinism are just concepts, neither is 'correct'. Not worth contemplating either imo. Same with mind and reality, they are both just conceptual ideas, both arise and subside. The ineffable phenomena from which they arise and to which they subside is the source of truth. Straight up or? Beter to contemplate the source.
The dualistic question of free will vs determinism was dealt with in case 29 of the mumonkan, where the patriarch confronted two monks arguing whether the flag on the flagpole was moving, or whether it was the wind that was moving. The question, a perennial hobbyhorse of sophomoric philosophy students, was so stupid the patriarch couldn't help but reprove them.
It is not that they are "conceptual ideas" - a redundancy - but that they are dualistic. Neither the wind nor the flag are agents. But then again, neither is mind an agent. There is no one to contemplate the source.
The question of free will has rearisen in the light of advances in neuoroscience and the increasing understanding of the role of neurotransmitters. We are slaves to our biochemistry, emissaries of evolution.
CASE 29: Not the Wind, Not the Flag
Case:
The wind was flapping a temple flag, and two monks were having an argument about it. One said, “The flag is moving.” The other said, “The wind is moving.” They argued back and forth but could not reach the truth. The sixth patriarch said, “It is not the wind that moves. It is not the flag that moves. It is your mind that moves.” The two monks were struck with awe.
Mumon's Commentary:
It is not the wind that moves; it is not the flag that moves; it is not the mind that moves.
Where do you see the essence of the patriarch? If you have a close grasp of the matter, you will see how the two monks, intending to buy iron, got gold, and that the patriarch impatiently said a failure on the spot.
Verse:
The wind moves, the flag moves, the mind moves;
All have missed it.
One only knows how to open one’s mouth,
And does not know that one’s words have failed.
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 2:55 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 2:54 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Poststerry The dualistic question of free will vs determinism was dealt with in case 29 of the mumonkan, where the patriarch confronted two monks arguing whether the flag on the flagpole was moving, or whether it was the wind that was moving. The question, a perennial hobbyhorse of sophomoric philosophy students, was so stupid the patriarch couldn't help but reprove them. It is not that they are "conceptual ideas" - a redundancy - but that they are dualistic. Neither the wind nor the flag are agents. But then again, neither is mind an agent. There is no one to contemplate the source. The question of free will has rearisen in the light of advances in neuoroscience and the increasing understanding of the role of neurotransmitters. We are slaves to our biochemistry, emissaries of evolution. CASE 29: Not the Wind, Not the Flag Case: The wind was flapping a temple flag, and two monks were having an argument about it. One said, “The flag is moving.” The other said, “The wind is moving.” They argued back and forth but could not reach the truth. The sixth patriarch said, “It is not the wind that moves. It is not the flag that moves. It is your mind that moves.” The two monks were struck with awe. Mumon's Commentary: It is not the wind that moves; it is not the flag that moves; it is not the mind that moves. Where do you see the essence of the patriarch? If you have a close grasp of the matter, you will see how the two monks, intending to buy iron, got gold, and that the patriarch impatiently said a failure on the spot. Verse: The wind moves, the flag moves, the mind moves; All have missed it. One only knows how to open one’s mouth, And does not know that one’s words have failed.
camdizzle the1st Both free-will and determinism are just concepts, neither is 'correct'. Not worth contemplating either imo. Same with mind and reality, they are both just conceptual ideas, both arise and subside. The ineffable phenomena from which they arise and to which they subside is the source of truth. Straight up or? Beter to contemplate the source.
Who are you talking to?
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 5:26 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 5:26 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Postscamdizzle the1st
Who are you talking to?
terry The dualistic question of free will vs determinism was dealt with in case 29 of the mumonkan, where the patriarch confronted two monks arguing whether the flag on the flagpole was moving, or whether it was the wind that was moving. The question, a perennial hobbyhorse of sophomoric philosophy students, was so stupid the patriarch couldn't help but reprove them. It is not that they are "conceptual ideas" - a redundancy - but that they are dualistic. Neither the wind nor the flag are agents. But then again, neither is mind an agent. There is no one to contemplate the source. The question of free will has rearisen in the light of advances in neuoroscience and the increasing understanding of the role of neurotransmitters. We are slaves to our biochemistry, emissaries of evolution. CASE 29: Not the Wind, Not the Flag Case: The wind was flapping a temple flag, and two monks were having an argument about it. One said, “The flag is moving.” The other said, “The wind is moving.” They argued back and forth but could not reach the truth. The sixth patriarch said, “It is not the wind that moves. It is not the flag that moves. It is your mind that moves.” The two monks were struck with awe. Mumon's Commentary: It is not the wind that moves; it is not the flag that moves; it is not the mind that moves. Where do you see the essence of the patriarch? If you have a close grasp of the matter, you will see how the two monks, intending to buy iron, got gold, and that the patriarch impatiently said a failure on the spot. Verse: The wind moves, the flag moves, the mind moves; All have missed it. One only knows how to open one’s mouth, And does not know that one’s words have failed.
camdizzle the1st Both free-will and determinism are just concepts, neither is 'correct'. Not worth contemplating either imo. Same with mind and reality, they are both just conceptual ideas, both arise and subside. The ineffable phenomena from which they arise and to which they subside is the source of truth. Straight up or? Beter to contemplate the source.
Who are you talking to?
lol
candizzle the 2nd?
who were you talking to?
(So much for dialog. I didn't expect much since it is apparent cd1 hdn't read much of the thread, but I didn't want to blow off the possibility of a genuine encounter, however remote.)
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 6:21 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 6:21 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Posts
Define genuine encounters.
There is no one to expect anything...
You wrote 'There is no one to contemplate the source.'
It therefore was funny to ask who are you taking to. Was your response genuine?
Expectations were met, as always.
There is no one to expect anything...
You wrote 'There is no one to contemplate the source.'
It therefore was funny to ask who are you taking to. Was your response genuine?
Expectations were met, as always.
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 6:38 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 6:38 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Postscamdizzle the1st
Define genuine encounters.
There is no one to expect anything...
You wrote 'There is no one to contemplate the source.'
It therefore was funny to ask who are you taking to. Was your response genuine?
Expectations were met, as always.
Define genuine encounters.
There is no one to expect anything...
You wrote 'There is no one to contemplate the source.'
It therefore was funny to ask who are you taking to. Was your response genuine?
Expectations were met, as always.
What did you expect?
Dogen solved his koan and went to the master and told him that he had dropped his body and mind. The master then asked him who it was who stood before him. (?)
Dogen answered that it was the dropped off body and mind.
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 2 Months ago at 10/11/24 2:52 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/11/24 2:52 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/11/24 3:51 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/11/24 3:51 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsSir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 2 Months ago at 10/11/24 4:38 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/11/24 4:38 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 12:59 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 12:59 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsSir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 2:52 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 2:52 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Poststerry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 5:44 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 5:44 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Postscamdizzle the1st
Source contemplating you contemplating source
Source contemplating you contemplating source
The funhouse hall of mirrors.
Apparent infinity of images only infinite regression.
the apparent universe a kaleidoscope of infinite reflections
cast by a small handful of irregular colored pebbles
pebbles like epinephrine, serotonin, dopamine,
gaba, acetylcholine, norepinephrine
from the way of chuang tzu, merton
STARLIGHT AND NON-BEING
Starlight asked Non-Being: "Master, are you? Or are you not?"
Since he received no answer whatever, Starlight set himself to watch
for Non-Being. He waited to see if Non-Being
would put in an appearance.
He kept his gaze fixed on the deep Void, hoping to catch
a glimpse of Non-Being.
All day long he looked, and he saw nothing. He listened,
but heard nothing. He reached out to grasp, and grasped
nothing.
Then Starlight exclaimed at last: "This is IT!"
"This is the furthest yet! Who can reach it?
I can comprehend the absence of Being
But who can comprehend the absence of Nothing?
If now, on top of all this, Non-Being IS,
Who can comprehend it?"
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 1:00 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 1:00 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
latest paper by top climate scinetists
if you are not alarmed you are not awake
https://oeco.org.br/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Ripple-et-al.-2024.pdf
if you are not alarmed you are not awake
https://oeco.org.br/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Ripple-et-al.-2024.pdf
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 2:44 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 2:10 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
since this is out of order, I'll post the link again
song for shargrol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6SZB3_qHVg
the whole vanishing treasures album by hawaiian style band maps mappo
hawaiians even look like indians
I have friends who visit alaska as tourists
and are taken for squaws
they get along great with the indigenous people
who also take them for squaws
even the translation of the lyric poem makes me cry...
He Makana No Na Mamo
Na Mo'olelo O Na Pua O Nehinei
E Pili Mau I Na Kupuna
Na Lei 'A'ala
I Ohu Mau I Ku'u Lei
I Ke Aloha Pili Mau
English Translation:
A Gift For The Decendants
The Stories of Yesterday's Flowers
Let's Always Hold Close
Our Ancestors, Who Are
A Sweet Smelling Lei For Us
Like A Misty Cloud Around The Mountain
Their Love Surrounds Us Forever
song for shargrol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6SZB3_qHVg
the whole vanishing treasures album by hawaiian style band maps mappo
hawaiians even look like indians
I have friends who visit alaska as tourists
and are taken for squaws
they get along great with the indigenous people
who also take them for squaws
even the translation of the lyric poem makes me cry...
He Makana No Na Mamo
Na Mo'olelo O Na Pua O Nehinei
E Pili Mau I Na Kupuna
Na Lei 'A'ala
I Ohu Mau I Ku'u Lei
I Ke Aloha Pili Mau
English Translation:
A Gift For The Decendants
The Stories of Yesterday's Flowers
Let's Always Hold Close
Our Ancestors, Who Are
A Sweet Smelling Lei For Us
Like A Misty Cloud Around The Mountain
Their Love Surrounds Us Forever
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 6:56 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/10/24 6:56 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
"Sweet Smelling Lei For Us
Like A Misty Cloud Around The Mountain"
this is a frequent image on the big island
I can see maui from my window and it is often
surrounded by a halo of cloud 5-7000ft
up the 10000 ft peak of haleakala
the house of the sun
mauna kea
mauna loa
hualalai
same same
we say
maui is wearing a lei
and like every encounter
with the spirit
we feel our ancestors
close to us
Like A Misty Cloud Around The Mountain"
this is a frequent image on the big island
I can see maui from my window and it is often
surrounded by a halo of cloud 5-7000ft
up the 10000 ft peak of haleakala
the house of the sun
mauna kea
mauna loa
hualalai
same same
we say
maui is wearing a lei
and like every encounter
with the spirit
we feel our ancestors
close to us
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/11/24 3:48 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/11/24 3:48 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Dogen taught his monks to meditate while not thinking. This practice, he said, was itself enlightenment. When monks would complain about this discipline and ask what about when continued thoughts arise? He told them to “think ‘no thought’.”
Iain mcgilchrist’s research on brain lateralization implies that we have two different views of the world, depending on which hemisphere is dominant at a given time.
We know from stroke patients that the left brain hemisphere controls the right side of the body, including sense organs, while the right controls the left. The brains of animals are similarly divided. Clearly there is evolutionary advantage in bilateral mental processing as it has been virtually universally selected for.
While both hemispheres are active in nearly all bod[ly functions, there are significant differences, even in the shape, size and orientation of the hemispheres.
Speech, for example, is essentially a function of the left brain. If we accept mcgilchrist’s view, this has tremendous implications. One of which is to validate soto zen practice.
Mcgilchrist deduces from his research that the ‘divided brain’ has two different worldviews, that are separate but not equal. He calls them ‘the master’ (right, nonverbal) and ‘his emissary’ (left, verbal). He concludes that these two halves can readily come into conflict, and that in fact our society and culture is so divided and at odds with itself.
yi jing:
Dragons fight in the field
their blood is black and yellow
The left brain is tightly focused, task oriented and basically bull-headed, not to be deterred. Considerations of consequences to the environment are irrelevant to ‘success.’ The right brain takes a global view, cares for life itself and the environment which nurtures and protects it. The right brain will walk into a supermarket, stoned, and read all the labels and think about what might be best for human nutrition and planetary health. The left brain will grab a power bar and an energy drink at the checkout stand. Right brained people will sneer at left brained people and vice versa.
Internally, this appears to map well onto the old freudian terms, ego, superego, and id, where ego is left, superego is right, and id is the basic evolutionary drive, the perceived needs of the organism. And it explains the nature of the conflict each person has with themselves, the clash of self interest and doing what is right. It also smells a bit of old fashioned scottish protestantism, the garden, the fall. Abel and cain.
Mcgilchrist’s thesis is that the left should naturally be subservient to the right, that the right should serve in the role of master, the left the emissary. (Emissary, emission, emitted; careful not to say slave or puppet.)
What can a buddhist think of this? Clearly empathy, compassion, is associated with the nonverbal side. Deodorizing the implied moralism, lets focus on the effects of shikantaza, just sitting, in light of this research.
There is a personality associated with the left, aggressive, self-aggrandizing (yang). And one with the right, peaceful, accommodating (yin). By the continuous practice of simply sitting and practicing being in nonverbal mind, one perceives the world as a whole in harmony and absolute grandeur, wonderful, ecstatically encountered…words inexpressible, ineffable. After meditation nonessential tasks are blown off and essential ones filled with the wordless knowledge of their cosmic global significance.
Grateful dead:
See here how everything
lead up to this day
and its just like any other day
that’s ever been
omar hayyam
LIII.
With Earth's first Clay They did the Last Man's knead,
And then of the Last Harvest sow'd the Seed:
Yea, the first Morning of Creation wrote
What the Last Dawn of Reckoning shall read.
The one round pearl is the right brain view, no time or space orientation needed for no tasks. A magical realm where everyone is a friend and we all work together. The magic monastery. Living the ideal, the dream of effortless, seamless integration. The thing is, this is the reality of the right brain. Nirvana. A legitimate point of view.
While the left brain’s goal directed behavior leads it into constant conflict. Things are always going wrong, down on the farm, the pests, the weather, hard to tell if anything is going to sell.
It’s easy to see that nature wants the two hemispheres to coexist peaceably and harmonize their bipolarity. Mcgilchrist suggests that the two hemispheres are way out of whack, the ego side far too dominant, and that the conditions are pathological for both the individual’s mental health and perceived well being and that of the species. Not to mention the ecosphere.
David graeber’s work suggests that in prehistory people generally were far more balanced and healthy and happy. Mappo again.
Perhaps the entire pathology of the euro-dominated world could be attributed to vitamin d deficiency. For the want of a nail…the kingdom is lost.
So, soto zen meditation may be a salubrious whack upside the head for those westerners addicted to dopamine and other fleeting and ultimately unrewarding satisfactions. Goal directed behavior at best accomplishes goals. This is inherently unsatisfactory as the goals are too narrow to provide any real happiness to anyone. We are happiest when we can live on little and substantially add to the quality of life of other sentient beings. Right.
Iain mcgilchrist’s research on brain lateralization implies that we have two different views of the world, depending on which hemisphere is dominant at a given time.
We know from stroke patients that the left brain hemisphere controls the right side of the body, including sense organs, while the right controls the left. The brains of animals are similarly divided. Clearly there is evolutionary advantage in bilateral mental processing as it has been virtually universally selected for.
While both hemispheres are active in nearly all bod[ly functions, there are significant differences, even in the shape, size and orientation of the hemispheres.
Speech, for example, is essentially a function of the left brain. If we accept mcgilchrist’s view, this has tremendous implications. One of which is to validate soto zen practice.
Mcgilchrist deduces from his research that the ‘divided brain’ has two different worldviews, that are separate but not equal. He calls them ‘the master’ (right, nonverbal) and ‘his emissary’ (left, verbal). He concludes that these two halves can readily come into conflict, and that in fact our society and culture is so divided and at odds with itself.
yi jing:
Dragons fight in the field
their blood is black and yellow
The left brain is tightly focused, task oriented and basically bull-headed, not to be deterred. Considerations of consequences to the environment are irrelevant to ‘success.’ The right brain takes a global view, cares for life itself and the environment which nurtures and protects it. The right brain will walk into a supermarket, stoned, and read all the labels and think about what might be best for human nutrition and planetary health. The left brain will grab a power bar and an energy drink at the checkout stand. Right brained people will sneer at left brained people and vice versa.
Internally, this appears to map well onto the old freudian terms, ego, superego, and id, where ego is left, superego is right, and id is the basic evolutionary drive, the perceived needs of the organism. And it explains the nature of the conflict each person has with themselves, the clash of self interest and doing what is right. It also smells a bit of old fashioned scottish protestantism, the garden, the fall. Abel and cain.
Mcgilchrist’s thesis is that the left should naturally be subservient to the right, that the right should serve in the role of master, the left the emissary. (Emissary, emission, emitted; careful not to say slave or puppet.)
What can a buddhist think of this? Clearly empathy, compassion, is associated with the nonverbal side. Deodorizing the implied moralism, lets focus on the effects of shikantaza, just sitting, in light of this research.
There is a personality associated with the left, aggressive, self-aggrandizing (yang). And one with the right, peaceful, accommodating (yin). By the continuous practice of simply sitting and practicing being in nonverbal mind, one perceives the world as a whole in harmony and absolute grandeur, wonderful, ecstatically encountered…words inexpressible, ineffable. After meditation nonessential tasks are blown off and essential ones filled with the wordless knowledge of their cosmic global significance.
Grateful dead:
See here how everything
lead up to this day
and its just like any other day
that’s ever been
omar hayyam
LIII.
With Earth's first Clay They did the Last Man's knead,
And then of the Last Harvest sow'd the Seed:
Yea, the first Morning of Creation wrote
What the Last Dawn of Reckoning shall read.
The one round pearl is the right brain view, no time or space orientation needed for no tasks. A magical realm where everyone is a friend and we all work together. The magic monastery. Living the ideal, the dream of effortless, seamless integration. The thing is, this is the reality of the right brain. Nirvana. A legitimate point of view.
While the left brain’s goal directed behavior leads it into constant conflict. Things are always going wrong, down on the farm, the pests, the weather, hard to tell if anything is going to sell.
It’s easy to see that nature wants the two hemispheres to coexist peaceably and harmonize their bipolarity. Mcgilchrist suggests that the two hemispheres are way out of whack, the ego side far too dominant, and that the conditions are pathological for both the individual’s mental health and perceived well being and that of the species. Not to mention the ecosphere.
David graeber’s work suggests that in prehistory people generally were far more balanced and healthy and happy. Mappo again.
Perhaps the entire pathology of the euro-dominated world could be attributed to vitamin d deficiency. For the want of a nail…the kingdom is lost.
So, soto zen meditation may be a salubrious whack upside the head for those westerners addicted to dopamine and other fleeting and ultimately unrewarding satisfactions. Goal directed behavior at best accomplishes goals. This is inherently unsatisfactory as the goals are too narrow to provide any real happiness to anyone. We are happiest when we can live on little and substantially add to the quality of life of other sentient beings. Right.
terry, modified 2 Months ago at 10/13/24 3:45 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/13/24 3:45 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Graeber first wrote a book about the origins of debt. And while his new prehistory focuses on the political animal and how they choose to live in freedom, much of his focus is still on private property.
Private property in prehistory mainly focused on sacred objects. Who got to possess heirloom objects and express their mana was hotly contested. Think of hui neng’s bowl and robe. Often the objects conferred the right to sing certain songs or do particular dances at the festivals which established and renewed their significance. We have many remnants of these ritual honors today, with awards, status and rewards attached. We compete for trophies and perquisites.
Even where money existed it was expected to be dispensed on public works, bread and circuses.
Where Graeber breaks new ground is in giving many examples of where pre-agriculture peoples would oscillate between highly structured, ritualized and hierarchical mass meetings for up to half a year, and then dispersion into small egalitarian groups the rest of the time.
Comparing this with mcgilchrist’s view of the divided brain and its effects on society may help us understand our own culture wars and political polarization.
Graeber speaks of two different views of freedom. One in which any interference with one’s rights to dispose of one’s property, even to destroy it, is a violation. And another where the ability to go wherever one wants and not to be told what to do by anyone else is seen as natural right.
The one fiercely defends their rights to the stuff they spend all their time and energy acquiring. The other insists on their individual rights to do and say anything they please.
The first is exclusive, a zero sum game in which the possessors must use force to preserve their rights. (Harris has a glock which she claims she will use to shoot anyone who attempts to enter her dwelling uninvited. Trump as a felon is not allowed access to firearms.)
The second extends rights not only to gays, lesbians, trannies and bisexuals, but also to queers. (I wore a tee shirt to wednesday’s farmers market which read, “no one is illegal on stolen land.”)
Political parties are skewed, corrupted. They don’t line up directly with the hemispheres, at least not any more. Main stream media has been so corrupted by the blatant lying of the right that they now engage in the same tactics, saying whatever serves the political interests of their owners. The american election comes down to the red corporate party vs the blue corporate party, silicon valley vs wall street, where the winners, the corporate parties, then divide up the spoils equally, hey, there is plenty to go around.
This leaves us, the public, bitterly divided. Mostly along left brain and right brain lines. These fundamental divisions have been identified by modern technology and are being exploited by ai algorithms.
The right (left-brained) has rediscovered “the big lie,” which, once swallowed, allows the influencer to tell any sort of lie and have it accepted without question. A new lie every day. Indeed a new lie every minute, so many one can’t challenge them all and fact checking becomes a continuous rebuttal, leaving one no time to make a point.
The left (right-brained) desires reconciliation, which often renders them complicit in their own destruction, when fighting an enemy who seeks only to win. One loses most when one becomes what one hates. (Like cnn, et al, former journalists and now supporters of genocide and the murder of real journalists and first responders, and babies.)
What I am really interested in here is still reconciliation, or “saving beings” in the buddhist formulation. Save the environment, the whales, the bees. Stop fracking and war and overconsumption.
The left brain attachment to detailed task oriented behavior is like a squirrel stashing nuts. Like the proto squirrel and his acorn in the ice age movies. From a more global view it appears as self destructive single minded obsession.
Sentient beings tend to have divided brains, one side dualistic, the other forced to be dualistic because the first side is. One side polarizing, the other depolarizing. Like neurons and neurotransmitters.
Self-preservation vs social cohesion. The irony here is that self-preservation focuses on denying actual freedom to be and do without restraint, while social cohesion requires an emphasis on equality and individual freedom; self sacrifice and leading by example. Free and equal societies required their members to adhere to a code of hospitality toward strangers, their absolute rights to food and drink and shelter. This allowed anyone to travel freely and go wherever they liked.
Another aspect of graeber’s research is the idea that humans tend to deliberately differentiate themselves into exclusive groups. (“My two favorite teams are detroit and whoever is playing the bears this week.”) These groups and their competitions can become violent; mesoamerica has a long history of violence involved with ball games. In nature most intra species conflicts are ritualistic and involve a lot of display. Once our two party system espoused similar values most of the time vs now where the stark choice is between endlesslly increasing global violence on the one side or the end of democracy and freedom throughout the world on the other. Could be our last significant election. Haven’t had one in hawaii in a long time.
Many people I know and some dear to me personally are doubtful that truth exists, or that it is real. They repeat obvious lies and say, but how do you know it isn’t true? as though plausibility was all that mattered. One finds oneself pointing out that the lie is not in fact plausible but then you find you no longer speak of truth but of how plausible something is, as though that was what mattered, how believable the lie. People then look for what they think believable and repeat it as though the little universe of collective lies will shield them from the truth. “The truth” being the increasingly unpalatable trajectory of human civilization. And their own lives and those of their offspring.
Are we going to wake up? We have to try. A lot of people see what is going on.
Private property in prehistory mainly focused on sacred objects. Who got to possess heirloom objects and express their mana was hotly contested. Think of hui neng’s bowl and robe. Often the objects conferred the right to sing certain songs or do particular dances at the festivals which established and renewed their significance. We have many remnants of these ritual honors today, with awards, status and rewards attached. We compete for trophies and perquisites.
Even where money existed it was expected to be dispensed on public works, bread and circuses.
Where Graeber breaks new ground is in giving many examples of where pre-agriculture peoples would oscillate between highly structured, ritualized and hierarchical mass meetings for up to half a year, and then dispersion into small egalitarian groups the rest of the time.
Comparing this with mcgilchrist’s view of the divided brain and its effects on society may help us understand our own culture wars and political polarization.
Graeber speaks of two different views of freedom. One in which any interference with one’s rights to dispose of one’s property, even to destroy it, is a violation. And another where the ability to go wherever one wants and not to be told what to do by anyone else is seen as natural right.
The one fiercely defends their rights to the stuff they spend all their time and energy acquiring. The other insists on their individual rights to do and say anything they please.
The first is exclusive, a zero sum game in which the possessors must use force to preserve their rights. (Harris has a glock which she claims she will use to shoot anyone who attempts to enter her dwelling uninvited. Trump as a felon is not allowed access to firearms.)
The second extends rights not only to gays, lesbians, trannies and bisexuals, but also to queers. (I wore a tee shirt to wednesday’s farmers market which read, “no one is illegal on stolen land.”)
Political parties are skewed, corrupted. They don’t line up directly with the hemispheres, at least not any more. Main stream media has been so corrupted by the blatant lying of the right that they now engage in the same tactics, saying whatever serves the political interests of their owners. The american election comes down to the red corporate party vs the blue corporate party, silicon valley vs wall street, where the winners, the corporate parties, then divide up the spoils equally, hey, there is plenty to go around.
This leaves us, the public, bitterly divided. Mostly along left brain and right brain lines. These fundamental divisions have been identified by modern technology and are being exploited by ai algorithms.
The right (left-brained) has rediscovered “the big lie,” which, once swallowed, allows the influencer to tell any sort of lie and have it accepted without question. A new lie every day. Indeed a new lie every minute, so many one can’t challenge them all and fact checking becomes a continuous rebuttal, leaving one no time to make a point.
The left (right-brained) desires reconciliation, which often renders them complicit in their own destruction, when fighting an enemy who seeks only to win. One loses most when one becomes what one hates. (Like cnn, et al, former journalists and now supporters of genocide and the murder of real journalists and first responders, and babies.)
What I am really interested in here is still reconciliation, or “saving beings” in the buddhist formulation. Save the environment, the whales, the bees. Stop fracking and war and overconsumption.
The left brain attachment to detailed task oriented behavior is like a squirrel stashing nuts. Like the proto squirrel and his acorn in the ice age movies. From a more global view it appears as self destructive single minded obsession.
Sentient beings tend to have divided brains, one side dualistic, the other forced to be dualistic because the first side is. One side polarizing, the other depolarizing. Like neurons and neurotransmitters.
Self-preservation vs social cohesion. The irony here is that self-preservation focuses on denying actual freedom to be and do without restraint, while social cohesion requires an emphasis on equality and individual freedom; self sacrifice and leading by example. Free and equal societies required their members to adhere to a code of hospitality toward strangers, their absolute rights to food and drink and shelter. This allowed anyone to travel freely and go wherever they liked.
Another aspect of graeber’s research is the idea that humans tend to deliberately differentiate themselves into exclusive groups. (“My two favorite teams are detroit and whoever is playing the bears this week.”) These groups and their competitions can become violent; mesoamerica has a long history of violence involved with ball games. In nature most intra species conflicts are ritualistic and involve a lot of display. Once our two party system espoused similar values most of the time vs now where the stark choice is between endlesslly increasing global violence on the one side or the end of democracy and freedom throughout the world on the other. Could be our last significant election. Haven’t had one in hawaii in a long time.
Many people I know and some dear to me personally are doubtful that truth exists, or that it is real. They repeat obvious lies and say, but how do you know it isn’t true? as though plausibility was all that mattered. One finds oneself pointing out that the lie is not in fact plausible but then you find you no longer speak of truth but of how plausible something is, as though that was what mattered, how believable the lie. People then look for what they think believable and repeat it as though the little universe of collective lies will shield them from the truth. “The truth” being the increasingly unpalatable trajectory of human civilization. And their own lives and those of their offspring.
Are we going to wake up? We have to try. A lot of people see what is going on.
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 2 Months ago at 10/14/24 2:48 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 10/14/24 2:46 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Posts
What does an awakened one look like? How should they act?
Isn't seeing others as separate from their 'awakened' selves (when in fact there is no self to become 'awakened') one of the ways we define unawakened?
Aren't those that are here at this time exactly how they are in their fully 'awakened' states?
Are we going to wake up? Who said we are asleep? Are we not all but dream actors. To ask 'are we going to wake up?' is to claim that we are asleep. To claim that WE are asleep is to claim that YOU too are sleeping, or do you see yourself as separate from all the others?
There is also no nothing but then also 'sine quo nulla disputatio est'.
There is no self but there is also no no-self.
Isn't seeing others as separate from their 'awakened' selves (when in fact there is no self to become 'awakened') one of the ways we define unawakened?
Aren't those that are here at this time exactly how they are in their fully 'awakened' states?
Are we going to wake up? Who said we are asleep? Are we not all but dream actors. To ask 'are we going to wake up?' is to claim that we are asleep. To claim that WE are asleep is to claim that YOU too are sleeping, or do you see yourself as separate from all the others?
There is also no nothing but then also 'sine quo nulla disputatio est'.
There is no self but there is also no no-self.
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 3:49 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 3:49 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Postscamdizzle the1st
What does an awakened one look like? How should they act?
Isn't seeing others as separate from their 'awakened' selves (when in fact there is no self to become 'awakened') one of the ways we define unawakened?
Aren't those that are here at this time exactly how they are in their fully 'awakened' states?
Are we going to wake up? Who said we are asleep? Are we not all but dream actors. To ask 'are we going to wake up?' is to claim that we are asleep. To claim that WE are asleep is to claim that YOU too are sleeping, or do you see yourself as separate from all the others?
There is also no nothing but then also 'sine quo nulla disputatio est'.
There is no self but there is also no no-self.
What does an awakened one look like? How should they act?
Isn't seeing others as separate from their 'awakened' selves (when in fact there is no self to become 'awakened') one of the ways we define unawakened?
Aren't those that are here at this time exactly how they are in their fully 'awakened' states?
Are we going to wake up? Who said we are asleep? Are we not all but dream actors. To ask 'are we going to wake up?' is to claim that we are asleep. To claim that WE are asleep is to claim that YOU too are sleeping, or do you see yourself as separate from all the others?
There is also no nothing but then also 'sine quo nulla disputatio est'.
There is no self but there is also no no-self.
By convention we here think of the buddha as the enlightened one.
Try google images for looks. Or contemplate the 32 marks. I don't want to school you on basic buddhism, especially as your questions are likely rhetorical, as though I should know better than to have a point of view.
If I didn't see "others" as separate from their awakened self I couldn't see them as other at all.
Let us define "unawakened" as so deluded as to be trapped in samsara, constantly being reborn in different realms, now in hell, now an animal, now a god. Always striving, never satisfied. Constantly distracted by the pursuit of food, sex and, well, sublimations and simulacra of food and sex. Look at any advertising.
No need to define "awakened" but to say "thus come."
Noah and his brood (and their animal friends) are thus come. The rest of you are going down.
This planet is rapidly becoming uninhabitable for the majority of humans. Within the lifetime of those born today civilization will collapse and the majority of humans will die. This glaring fact, bright as the noonday sun in clarity, has yet to enter the awareness of the majority of people as a reality. So I say these unaware individuals are "asleep." If they were to "wake up" to their imminent danger we might have a chance to mitigate the worst of the effects.
This echoes the mahayana "burning house" analogy. Wake up to the danger and escape.
These points are obvious enough. What is your point? By your same token I could challenge your standpoint. We use english to communicate, by agreement and convention. We also use nouns and pronouns, however inappropritate.
You have to read between the lines to be literate.
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 6:31 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 6:31 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2753 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Camdizzle, please know that some people maintain a personal thread, like Terry's thread here, and aren't necessarily here for debating their posts/observations. It may be appropriate to start your own posts on topics/issues that you want to discuss.
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 3:44 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 3:19 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Posts
Nah, I am pretty good here thanks Shar ;D Thanks for the suggestion though *thumbs up*
I am pretty sure that Terry would ave made the thread private if Terry had not wanted it open to the public, right Terry?
Anyway, this thread can't be too personal, as I see others (including yourself Shar) have piped in over the past few months.
Also, Terry wrote ' I didn't want to blow off the possibility of a genuine encounter, however remote.' and when asked to define genuine encouters Terry wrote 'Koans are genuine encounters, in zen. Not definable, by definition. (lol)'. So, I am here koan-ing with Terry.
What are you doing here Shar? Are you too koan-ing? Were you trying to deter me from participating or was that some sort of initiation thing? Did I pass? Can I stay Shar? *rofl*
Personally, I think your comment is more off track than anything I had previously written in this thread. Perhaps you should start a separate thread and make efforts to deter me there... (sorry I couldn't resist, too funny. peace Shar)
I am pretty sure that Terry would ave made the thread private if Terry had not wanted it open to the public, right Terry?
Anyway, this thread can't be too personal, as I see others (including yourself Shar) have piped in over the past few months.
Also, Terry wrote ' I didn't want to blow off the possibility of a genuine encounter, however remote.' and when asked to define genuine encouters Terry wrote 'Koans are genuine encounters, in zen. Not definable, by definition. (lol)'. So, I am here koan-ing with Terry.
What are you doing here Shar? Are you too koan-ing? Were you trying to deter me from participating or was that some sort of initiation thing? Did I pass? Can I stay Shar? *rofl*
Personally, I think your comment is more off track than anything I had previously written in this thread. Perhaps you should start a separate thread and make efforts to deter me there... (sorry I couldn't resist, too funny. peace Shar)
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 3:37 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 3:35 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Posts
What I have learned from all this is that I cannot use emojis but that I can use gifs!
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 3:53 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 3:53 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent PostsSir Cam Dizzle The 1st
Nah, I am pretty good here thanks Shar ;D Thanks for the suggestion though *thumbs up*
I am pretty sure that Terry would ave made the thread private if Terry had not wanted it open to the public, right Terry?
Anyway, this thread can't be too personal, as I see others (including yourself Shar) have piped in over the past few months.
Also, Terry wrote ' I didn't want to blow off the possibility of a genuine encounter, however remote.' and when asked to define genuine encouters Terry wrote 'Koans are genuine encounters, in zen. Not definable, by definition. (lol)'. So, I am here koan-ing with Terry.
What are you doing here Shar? Are you too koan-ing? Were you trying to deter me from participating or was that some sort of initiation thing? Did I pass? Can I stay Shar? *rofl*
Personally, I think your comment is more off track than anything I had previously written in this thread. Perhaps you should start a separate thread and make efforts to deter me there... (sorry I couldn't resist, too funny. peace Shar)
Nah, I am pretty good here thanks Shar ;D Thanks for the suggestion though *thumbs up*
I am pretty sure that Terry would ave made the thread private if Terry had not wanted it open to the public, right Terry?
Anyway, this thread can't be too personal, as I see others (including yourself Shar) have piped in over the past few months.
Also, Terry wrote ' I didn't want to blow off the possibility of a genuine encounter, however remote.' and when asked to define genuine encouters Terry wrote 'Koans are genuine encounters, in zen. Not definable, by definition. (lol)'. So, I am here koan-ing with Terry.
What are you doing here Shar? Are you too koan-ing? Were you trying to deter me from participating or was that some sort of initiation thing? Did I pass? Can I stay Shar? *rofl*
Personally, I think your comment is more off track than anything I had previously written in this thread. Perhaps you should start a separate thread and make efforts to deter me there... (sorry I couldn't resist, too funny. peace Shar)
you're right, son
koan away
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 5:30 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 5:25 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Posts
Man, you have me in tears Terry, classic!
Actually, I was being earnest when I asked what does an awakened one look like but I meant from your perception. How do you perceive an awakened one, what traits must they have, how do you distinnguish one from anyone else? I asked this for a reason and could further elaborate but I do not want to solve your koan for you...
Saying 'If I didn't see "others" as separate from their awakened self I couldn't see them as other at all.' is somewhat paradoxical, or? I mean, it's as though you are saying that if we truly see others as part of our own awakened self, then the concept of "other" becomes irrelevant but even that doesn't mean we cease to recognize individual differences or experiences. It simply means that we perceive those differences within the context of a larger, interconnected reality. We can perceive others as both, a part of ourselves and as disitnct entities or? Atleast, that is how I am able to perceive things in my enlightened state ;)
I say I know that the majority of the others are aware of the things you are talking about but they either don't take it seriously or don't care. I would say that as we are all 'connected' then, what one is aware of is shared by the many. You know, all for one and one for all *haha*. It's funny that regardless of our shared awareness though, our thoughts are so very different. I see you as acting as though you are unware of the fact that we are all actually aware of the fact that underlying all of our thoughts we know that we are all aware of the fact that we are all actually aware of the fact and so on and so forth.
Could it be that people that appear to be suffering are actually just enlightened masters acting that way for some ineffable reason?
In the context of NADAM, which rejects deterministic labels, such a phenomenon would be viewed as arising from complex, interdependent systems. What we perceive as suffering might be part of a greater, ineffable process that transcends our ability to label it as "good" or "bad." It could be a manifestation of awareness expressing itself in a way that defies our usual interpretations. From this viewpoint, concepts like suffering and enlightenment would just be surface-level descriptions of much deeper, interconnected phenomena, beyond the limits of language and perception.
What is NADAM?
NADAM stands for Non-Autonomous Dynamic Agency Model, a theory I've chosen to describe a unique philosophical framework that rejects both free will and determinism. It focuses on the idea that human decisions arise from complex, interdependent systems rather than from a single controlling force, whether internal or external.
Key aspects of NADAM include:
Actually, I was being earnest when I asked what does an awakened one look like but I meant from your perception. How do you perceive an awakened one, what traits must they have, how do you distinnguish one from anyone else? I asked this for a reason and could further elaborate but I do not want to solve your koan for you...
Saying 'If I didn't see "others" as separate from their awakened self I couldn't see them as other at all.' is somewhat paradoxical, or? I mean, it's as though you are saying that if we truly see others as part of our own awakened self, then the concept of "other" becomes irrelevant but even that doesn't mean we cease to recognize individual differences or experiences. It simply means that we perceive those differences within the context of a larger, interconnected reality. We can perceive others as both, a part of ourselves and as disitnct entities or? Atleast, that is how I am able to perceive things in my enlightened state ;)
I say I know that the majority of the others are aware of the things you are talking about but they either don't take it seriously or don't care. I would say that as we are all 'connected' then, what one is aware of is shared by the many. You know, all for one and one for all *haha*. It's funny that regardless of our shared awareness though, our thoughts are so very different. I see you as acting as though you are unware of the fact that we are all actually aware of the fact that underlying all of our thoughts we know that we are all aware of the fact that we are all actually aware of the fact and so on and so forth.
Could it be that people that appear to be suffering are actually just enlightened masters acting that way for some ineffable reason?
In the context of NADAM, which rejects deterministic labels, such a phenomenon would be viewed as arising from complex, interdependent systems. What we perceive as suffering might be part of a greater, ineffable process that transcends our ability to label it as "good" or "bad." It could be a manifestation of awareness expressing itself in a way that defies our usual interpretations. From this viewpoint, concepts like suffering and enlightenment would just be surface-level descriptions of much deeper, interconnected phenomena, beyond the limits of language and perception.
What is NADAM?
NADAM stands for Non-Autonomous Dynamic Agency Model, a theory I've chosen to describe a unique philosophical framework that rejects both free will and determinism. It focuses on the idea that human decisions arise from complex, interdependent systems rather than from a single controlling force, whether internal or external.
Key aspects of NADAM include:
- Non-Autonomous: It denies the idea of complete autonomy or free will in the traditional sense, suggesting that individual actions and decisions are part of a larger interconnected web of causes and effects.
- Dynamic Agency: While individuals act and make decisions, these actions are not isolated or solely self-driven but are influenced by myriad factors, both seen and unseen. There's no single, fixed agent driving behavior but rather dynamic processes.
- Rejection of Labels: In NADAM, anything that can be labeled, categorized, or described is automatically rejected because those descriptions are merely conceptual. Concepts, according to this theory, are not the truth; they are just mental constructs that arise from deeper phenomena.
- Greater Phenomenon: Beneath all describable events or experiences lies an ineffable phenomenon that can only be truly known or felt through direct awareness. This "greater phenomenon" is beyond the grasp of conceptual thinking.
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 5:33 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 5:33 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Poststerry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 7:29 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 7:26 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Your believer in free will etc is a straw man. You have a stick, your acronymic ideology, and can use it to knock down straw men because it has no other use. Perhaps you should go find some straw men to knock down.
If any of your assertions has any relevance to the thread - mapping mappo - then show it.
If you had been following the thread you might have noticed that simple notions are being characterized as left brain dualism, and right brain holistic intuitional modalities are encouraged. No one is asserting the reality of the ego, personality, soul or liver of life.
As for your acronymic ideology, perhaps shargrol is right you should start your own thread, as it seems irrelevant and off topic here.
Plus you are offensive. You wouldn't be the reincarnation of a recent dead troll, would you?
When I was first living in hawaii, almost forty years ago, a young girl schooled me on why she hated haoles (if she liked you, you weren't really a haole). She told me haoles - haole literally means "foreigner" - were sassy, pushy, and had no respect for local culture.
Apologize and play nice and you can stay.
If any of your assertions has any relevance to the thread - mapping mappo - then show it.
If you had been following the thread you might have noticed that simple notions are being characterized as left brain dualism, and right brain holistic intuitional modalities are encouraged. No one is asserting the reality of the ego, personality, soul or liver of life.
As for your acronymic ideology, perhaps shargrol is right you should start your own thread, as it seems irrelevant and off topic here.
Plus you are offensive. You wouldn't be the reincarnation of a recent dead troll, would you?
When I was first living in hawaii, almost forty years ago, a young girl schooled me on why she hated haoles (if she liked you, you weren't really a haole). She told me haoles - haole literally means "foreigner" - were sassy, pushy, and had no respect for local culture.
Apologize and play nice and you can stay.
Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 2:09 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 2:09 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 5479 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts It focuses on the idea that human decisions arise from complex, interdependent systems rather than from a single controlling force, whether internal or external.
That's a pretty good definition of determinism - which doesn't require anything but that decisions humans make are not the result of freely made choice but rather are the result of other factors, understood, not understood, or whatever, but that are outside the bounds of human control.
determinism /dĭ-tûr′mə-nĭz″əm/noun
- The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision, is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.
- The doctrine that the will is not free, but is inevitably and invincibly determined by motives, preceding events, and natural laws.
- The doctrine that all actions are determined by the current state and immutable laws of the universe, with no possibility of choice.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 4:35 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 4:35 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent PostsChris M
That's a pretty good definition of determinism - which doesn't require anything but that decisions humans make are not the result of freely made choice but rather are the result of other factors, understood, not understood, or whatever, but that are outside the bounds of human control.
determinism /dĭ-tûr′mə-nĭz″əm/noun
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition
It focuses on the idea that human decisions arise from complex, interdependent systems rather than from a single controlling force, whether internal or external.
That's a pretty good definition of determinism - which doesn't require anything but that decisions humans make are not the result of freely made choice but rather are the result of other factors, understood, not understood, or whatever, but that are outside the bounds of human control.
determinism /dĭ-tûr′mə-nĭz″əm/noun
- The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision, is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.
- The doctrine that the will is not free, but is inevitably and invincibly determined by motives, preceding events, and natural laws.
- The doctrine that all actions are determined by the current state and immutable laws of the universe, with no possibility of choice.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition
- NADAM and determinism might sound similar at first because they both say that our choices aren’t fully free. But there’s an important difference:
Determinism says everything that happens is caused by something before it in a very predictable, straightforward way. If we knew all the factors, we could figure out exactly what will happen next.
NADAM, on the other hand, says decisions come from a lot of different factors working together, but these factors are so complex and unpredictable that we can’t fully trace or predict them. So, while we don’t have complete control, things aren’t set in stone like in determinism. The outcome is always a bit messy and surprising, not fixed by a strict chain of causes.
In short, NADAM sees decisions as coming from a complex mix of influences, rather than being locked into a strict cause-and-effect path like determinism.
Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 4:53 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 4:53 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 5479 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent PostsDeterminism says everything that happens is caused by something before it in a very predictable, straightforward way.
Did you read the definition I posted? Did you see anything in it that requires a simple, direct relationship between determining factors and outcome? All that's required of determinism is that there be no free choice. The factors that determine outcomes can be anything at all. All that's required is that those factors have some effect on the outcome. They can be few or many, simple or complex, known or unknown—even unknowable.
We need to give terry his topic back. If you want to continue a discussion about free will, determinism, and whatever lies between, start a topic of your own, and we can pursue it there.
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 6:24 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 6:24 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Posts
No thanks, I'm not interested in discussing free will and determinism. On the contrary, I reject the dichotomy.
Determinism strictly asserts that all events, including human actions, are determined by prior causes. This implies a direct, linear causal chain where every effect has a specific, identifiable cause.
The stuff about dualism and freewill is only mentioned to point out that the Non-Autonomous Dynamic Agency Model rejects them.
What I'm saying is - what we perceive as suffering might be part of a greater, ineffable process that transcends our ability to label it as "good" or "bad." It could be a manifestation of awareness expressing itself in a way that defies our usual interpretations. From this viewpoint, concepts like suffering and enlightenment would just be surface-level descriptions of much deeper, interconnected phenomena, beyond the limits of language and perception.
How is that not relevant? And just claiming that I'm presenting a straw man without addressing why... Is a straw man!
Determinism strictly asserts that all events, including human actions, are determined by prior causes. This implies a direct, linear causal chain where every effect has a specific, identifiable cause.
The stuff about dualism and freewill is only mentioned to point out that the Non-Autonomous Dynamic Agency Model rejects them.
What I'm saying is - what we perceive as suffering might be part of a greater, ineffable process that transcends our ability to label it as "good" or "bad." It could be a manifestation of awareness expressing itself in a way that defies our usual interpretations. From this viewpoint, concepts like suffering and enlightenment would just be surface-level descriptions of much deeper, interconnected phenomena, beyond the limits of language and perception.
How is that not relevant? And just claiming that I'm presenting a straw man without addressing why... Is a straw man!
Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 7:49 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 7:38 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 5479 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Well, it's obvious Cam Dizzle likes to define concepts to suit their beliefs. What is determinism? "It's what I say it is!"
And with that, terry, back to you.
And with that, terry, back to you.
galena unbound, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:25 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:25 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 6 Join Date: 6/15/24 Recent PostsChris M
Well, it's obvious Cam Dizzle likes to define concepts to suit their beliefs. What is determinism? "It's what I say it is!"
And with that, terry, back to you.
Well, it's obvious Cam Dizzle likes to define concepts to suit their beliefs. What is determinism? "It's what I say it is!"
And with that, terry, back to you.
Chris, you're wrong here. Your opponent's definition is the usual way determinism is defined.
Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:38 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:38 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 5479 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Postsgalena unbound, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:42 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:42 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 6 Join Date: 6/15/24 Recent Poststerry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 4:11 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 4:11 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Postsshargrol
Camdizzle, please know that some people maintain a personal thread, like Terry's thread here, and aren't necessarily here for debating their posts/observations. It may be appropriate to start your own posts on topics/issues that you want to discuss.
Camdizzle, please know that some people maintain a personal thread, like Terry's thread here, and aren't necessarily here for debating their posts/observations. It may be appropriate to start your own posts on topics/issues that you want to discuss.
I'm happy to have anything I say challenged. Often I don't open up on a topic until someone asks about it. Many phrases have whole essays behind them, or at least lengthy quotes. My words have long tails.
There is nothing personal about anything I say and no one should take anything I say personally.
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 5:47 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 5:47 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Postsshargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 4:10 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 4:10 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2753 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Poststerry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 4:13 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 4:13 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Postsshargrol
Happy to be wrong, won't be the first time.
Happy to be wrong, won't be the first time.
Take it as an invitation to comment more freely, and know your comments are welcome.
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 5:43 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 5:42 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Postsshargrol
Happy to be wrong, won't be the first time.
Happy to be wrong, won't be the first time.
Hey Shar, what did the five fingers say to the face?
SLAP!
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 6:20 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 6:20 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Why not play with me, jones, and leave shargol be.
I find the above image in bad taste. Zen slaps are not intended to cause pain or humiliation.
I find the above image in bad taste. Zen slaps are not intended to cause pain or humiliation.
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 7:20 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 7:02 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Posts
No harm meant young Padawan. You mentioned you thought Dave Chappelle was a great artist and that scene was one of the funniest scenes from the Rick James skits he did in the Chappelle Show.
Edit: of course, humor is subjective but it's a very popular scene.
Edit: of course, humor is subjective but it's a very popular scene.
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 4:23 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 4:23 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
CASE 1: Jôshû's Dog
Case:
The monk asked Jôshû in all earnestness, “Does a dog have Buddha nature or not?” Jôshû
said, “Mu!”
Mumon's Commentary:
For the practice of Zen, you must pass the barrier set up by the ancient masters of Zen. To
attain to marvelous enlightenment, you must completely extinguish all thoughts of the
ordinary mind. If you have not passed the barrier and have not extinguished all thoughts,
you are a phantom haunting the weeds and trees. Now just tell me, what is the barrier set by the
patriarchs? Merely this Mu – the one barrier of our sect. So it has come to be called “the
Gateless barrier of the Zen Sect.” Those who have passed the barrier are able not only to see
Jôshû face to face but also to walk hand in hand with the whole descending line of patriarchs
and be eyebrow to eyebrow with them. You will see with the same eye that they see with, hear
with the same ear that they hear with. Wouldn't it be a wonderful joy! Isn't there anyone who
wants to pass this barrier? Then concentrate your whole self into this Mu, making your whole
body with its 360 bones and joints and 84,000 pores into a solid lump of doubt. Day and night,
without ceasing, keep digging into it, but don't take it as “nothingness” or as “being” or
“non-being”. It must be like a red-hot iron ball which you have gulped down and which you
try to vomit but cannot. You must extinguish all delusive thoughts and beliefs which you have
cherished up to the present. After a certain period of such efforts, Mu will come to fruition,
and inside and out will become one naturally. You will then be like a dumb man who has had
a dream. You will know yourself and for yourself only. Then all of a sudden, Mu will break
open. It will astonish the heavens and shake the earth. It will be just as if you had snatched
the great sword of General Kan: If you meet a Buddha, you will kill him. If you meet a
patriarch, you will kill him. Though you may stand on the brink of life and death, you will
enjoy the great freedom. In the six realms and the four modes of birth, you will live in the
samadhi of innocent play. Now, how should you concentrate on Mu? Exhaust every ounce of
energy you have in doing it. And if you do not give up on the way, you will be enlightened the
way a candle in front of the alter is lighted by one touch of fire.
Verse:
Dog – Buddha nature!
The perfect manifestation, the absolute command.
A little “has” or “has not,”
And body is lost! Life is lost!
Case:
The monk asked Jôshû in all earnestness, “Does a dog have Buddha nature or not?” Jôshû
said, “Mu!”
Mumon's Commentary:
For the practice of Zen, you must pass the barrier set up by the ancient masters of Zen. To
attain to marvelous enlightenment, you must completely extinguish all thoughts of the
ordinary mind. If you have not passed the barrier and have not extinguished all thoughts,
you are a phantom haunting the weeds and trees. Now just tell me, what is the barrier set by the
patriarchs? Merely this Mu – the one barrier of our sect. So it has come to be called “the
Gateless barrier of the Zen Sect.” Those who have passed the barrier are able not only to see
Jôshû face to face but also to walk hand in hand with the whole descending line of patriarchs
and be eyebrow to eyebrow with them. You will see with the same eye that they see with, hear
with the same ear that they hear with. Wouldn't it be a wonderful joy! Isn't there anyone who
wants to pass this barrier? Then concentrate your whole self into this Mu, making your whole
body with its 360 bones and joints and 84,000 pores into a solid lump of doubt. Day and night,
without ceasing, keep digging into it, but don't take it as “nothingness” or as “being” or
“non-being”. It must be like a red-hot iron ball which you have gulped down and which you
try to vomit but cannot. You must extinguish all delusive thoughts and beliefs which you have
cherished up to the present. After a certain period of such efforts, Mu will come to fruition,
and inside and out will become one naturally. You will then be like a dumb man who has had
a dream. You will know yourself and for yourself only. Then all of a sudden, Mu will break
open. It will astonish the heavens and shake the earth. It will be just as if you had snatched
the great sword of General Kan: If you meet a Buddha, you will kill him. If you meet a
patriarch, you will kill him. Though you may stand on the brink of life and death, you will
enjoy the great freedom. In the six realms and the four modes of birth, you will live in the
samadhi of innocent play. Now, how should you concentrate on Mu? Exhaust every ounce of
energy you have in doing it. And if you do not give up on the way, you will be enlightened the
way a candle in front of the alter is lighted by one touch of fire.
Verse:
Dog – Buddha nature!
The perfect manifestation, the absolute command.
A little “has” or “has not,”
And body is lost! Life is lost!
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 4:37 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 4:37 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Here is the paradox, to unravel if you like, if you can.
The buddha preached for 49 years and never said a word.
Lao tzu said:
"He who speaks does not know.
He who knows does not speak."
In a book of 10,000 characters.
Bodhidharma said: "No dependence on words and letters."
The master would reduce the monks to wordlessness and then shake them, saying "Speak! Speak!"
The buddha preached for 49 years and never said a word.
Lao tzu said:
"He who speaks does not know.
He who knows does not speak."
In a book of 10,000 characters.
Bodhidharma said: "No dependence on words and letters."
The master would reduce the monks to wordlessness and then shake them, saying "Speak! Speak!"
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 7:37 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 7:37 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
I tell you what can drizzle - sir -<br /><br />you are tryihg to teach a bunch of grandmothers how to suck eggs....
Sir Cam Dizzle The 1st, modified 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 1:10 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 1:10 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 25 Join Date: 10/8/24 Recent Poststerry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 8:58 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/14/24 8:58 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from radical zen, yoel hoffman
104.
A monk asked. "Well. are the masters of today close to the great men of old?"
Joshu said. "I would not say they are not close. but it is not the same."
The monk asked. "Why is it not the same?"
Joshu said. "The one who is in the realm of truth does not preach the truth."
The monk said. "You say that the one who is in the realm of truth does not preach the truth. Do you yourself, Master, not preach the truth for the sake of the people?"
Joshu said. "It is right here that I answer."
The monk said. "Why, then, do you say that the enlightened one does not preach the truth?"
Joshu said. "Here I have been trying to save your father. but he did not show his face after all."
NOTE: The monk is taken in by doctrinairian thinking, If he knew his true nature (his "father"), he would see Joshu right where he was and thank him for not having preached.
104.
A monk asked. "Well. are the masters of today close to the great men of old?"
Joshu said. "I would not say they are not close. but it is not the same."
The monk asked. "Why is it not the same?"
Joshu said. "The one who is in the realm of truth does not preach the truth."
The monk said. "You say that the one who is in the realm of truth does not preach the truth. Do you yourself, Master, not preach the truth for the sake of the people?"
Joshu said. "It is right here that I answer."
The monk said. "Why, then, do you say that the enlightened one does not preach the truth?"
Joshu said. "Here I have been trying to save your father. but he did not show his face after all."
NOTE: The monk is taken in by doctrinairian thinking, If he knew his true nature (his "father"), he would see Joshu right where he was and thank him for not having preached.
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 1:43 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 1:43 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
op cit
66.
Joshu said. "A blade of grass means as much to me as a sixteen-foot golden Buddha. I can use a sixteen-foot golden Buddha like a blade of grass. Buddha is passion and suffering; passion and suffering are Buddha."
A monk asked. "For whom is Buddha suffering?" Joshu said. "For all mankind."
The monk asked. "How can one achieve deliverance?" Joshu said. "What will you do with it?"
NOTE: Buddha may be suffering so that all may attain enlightenment. But enlightenment has nothing to do with "deliverance" from this world. What is there to do in "Paradise"?
90.
Joshu preached to the people. He said: "It is said that 'To reach the Way is not difficult; the only setback is that of choice. The moment you use words, it is a matter of choice.' I am not even in the realm of understanding, let alone choice. But you, are you not still very concerned with understanding?"
A monk asked, "Since you are not in the realm of understanding, what is there that you say we should not be concerned with?" Joshu answered, "I myself do not know."
The monk said, "You say you do not know, but why then did you say you are not in the realm of understanding?"
Joshu said, "It is only because you asked that I answered. Now go away."
NOTE: Joshu suggests that the opposite of enlightenment is "choice" (reasoning in terms of affirmation and negation). However, using words does not necessarily imply that one is taken in by "choice." The element of "choice" enters only where words are used for speculation. A nonspeculative usage of words does not contradict "understanding" ("enlightenment"). Yet it is not good to be conscious of one's "understanding." Such consciousness indicates that one is still taken in by "choice" (between enlightenment and nonenlightenment). This is why Joshu says he is "not in the realm of understanding." The monk rightly suggests that if this were so, Joshu would not be conscious of his "not being in the realm of understanding"; for if Joshu is "enlightened," why should he make a problem out of it? Joshu wisely enough says he does not know. Joshu's "I do not know" is not only a refusal to argue, but also an answer to the monk's question. That is, Joshu's statement on "not being in the realm of understanding" may have been too speculative, but he refuses to be taken in by his own words. The monk takes Joshu's "I do not know" simply as a refusal to argue and presses Joshu to explain himself. In his answer Joshu suggests that being asked "words," he answers "words"; that's all there is to it. The monk would do well to become less clever.
66.
Joshu said. "A blade of grass means as much to me as a sixteen-foot golden Buddha. I can use a sixteen-foot golden Buddha like a blade of grass. Buddha is passion and suffering; passion and suffering are Buddha."
A monk asked. "For whom is Buddha suffering?" Joshu said. "For all mankind."
The monk asked. "How can one achieve deliverance?" Joshu said. "What will you do with it?"
NOTE: Buddha may be suffering so that all may attain enlightenment. But enlightenment has nothing to do with "deliverance" from this world. What is there to do in "Paradise"?
90.
Joshu preached to the people. He said: "It is said that 'To reach the Way is not difficult; the only setback is that of choice. The moment you use words, it is a matter of choice.' I am not even in the realm of understanding, let alone choice. But you, are you not still very concerned with understanding?"
A monk asked, "Since you are not in the realm of understanding, what is there that you say we should not be concerned with?" Joshu answered, "I myself do not know."
The monk said, "You say you do not know, but why then did you say you are not in the realm of understanding?"
Joshu said, "It is only because you asked that I answered. Now go away."
NOTE: Joshu suggests that the opposite of enlightenment is "choice" (reasoning in terms of affirmation and negation). However, using words does not necessarily imply that one is taken in by "choice." The element of "choice" enters only where words are used for speculation. A nonspeculative usage of words does not contradict "understanding" ("enlightenment"). Yet it is not good to be conscious of one's "understanding." Such consciousness indicates that one is still taken in by "choice" (between enlightenment and nonenlightenment). This is why Joshu says he is "not in the realm of understanding." The monk rightly suggests that if this were so, Joshu would not be conscious of his "not being in the realm of understanding"; for if Joshu is "enlightened," why should he make a problem out of it? Joshu wisely enough says he does not know. Joshu's "I do not know" is not only a refusal to argue, but also an answer to the monk's question. That is, Joshu's statement on "not being in the realm of understanding" may have been too speculative, but he refuses to be taken in by his own words. The monk takes Joshu's "I do not know" simply as a refusal to argue and presses Joshu to explain himself. In his answer Joshu suggests that being asked "words," he answers "words"; that's all there is to it. The monk would do well to become less clever.
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 1:50 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 1:50 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
waking up…
what do I mean, “waking up”?
digression-
the question of who there is to wake up
is self reflective
the question itself sets up a straw man,
or straw dog
a whole array of straw dogs
fit only for ritual
sacrifice
teachers, mentors, rulers, priests
coaches
tutus, kumus
soldiers in service to ideas
in step, left right left right
“I will teach you”
get in step
once one awakes
the individual self
is left to take care of itself
many laughable mistakes
many regrettable ones
straw considerations
one dewdrop hosting one moon
end digression
waking up…
there is a context to waking up
what did I mean
on the chessboard of literary flow
as it was a couple of moves ago
trying to reconstruct the game
rarely worthwhile
howsoever, and notwithstanding,
what can we say here
meaningfully
about waking up?
what do we mean by the sleep state
from which awakening is deemed of value?
in buddhism the general state of unawakened
sentience
is samsara, the round birth and death
of arising and passing away
mappo implies decline
of dharma
in the current exposition
the decline of civilization
into barbarism
thus
the decline of dharma
as a consequence
underlying contention
save dharma
save everything save self
all being is invited
into the great vehicle
lets go
it takes a global economy
to support many billions
feed them
dispose of their wastes
this economy must expand
or collapse
food will run out
or wastes over accumulate
a person may not be able to deny this verbally
at the same time they cannot accept it emotionally
and be able to act on the information
which is crucial to survival
of any dharma worth its salt
similarly, a person may understand enlightenment’
and not realize that this understanding itself
prevents enlightenment
so they preach
as though they knew
the delusion of knowledge of tao
the most profound of delusions
and the most dangerous
narcissism wants to rule the world
for its own benefit, of course
own benefit
we are bombarded by unwanted information
advertising
propaganda
artful framing
repetition
normalizing the unthinkable
genocide, starving babies, blowing up cell phones
human shields, institutionalized torture and mass humiliation
manicly developing more ecocidal power plants
raising hypocrisy to an art form
wake up to collective responsibility
its our karma
we are burning gas
consuming from single use containers
we are voting for genocide
and fascism
and rule by “:donors”
the least we can do is wake up
tell our neighbors we are awake
if we can’t do that
we are too conditioned
afraid
to be real
so have courage
and wake up
words
point to silence
as wakefulness
we have to start anew
at every moment
that
is
enlightenment
that is being awake
what do I mean, “waking up”?
digression-
the question of who there is to wake up
is self reflective
the question itself sets up a straw man,
or straw dog
a whole array of straw dogs
fit only for ritual
sacrifice
teachers, mentors, rulers, priests
coaches
tutus, kumus
soldiers in service to ideas
in step, left right left right
“I will teach you”
get in step
once one awakes
the individual self
is left to take care of itself
many laughable mistakes
many regrettable ones
straw considerations
one dewdrop hosting one moon
end digression
waking up…
there is a context to waking up
what did I mean
on the chessboard of literary flow
as it was a couple of moves ago
trying to reconstruct the game
rarely worthwhile
howsoever, and notwithstanding,
what can we say here
meaningfully
about waking up?
what do we mean by the sleep state
from which awakening is deemed of value?
in buddhism the general state of unawakened
sentience
is samsara, the round birth and death
of arising and passing away
mappo implies decline
of dharma
in the current exposition
the decline of civilization
into barbarism
thus
the decline of dharma
as a consequence
underlying contention
save dharma
save everything save self
all being is invited
into the great vehicle
lets go
it takes a global economy
to support many billions
feed them
dispose of their wastes
this economy must expand
or collapse
food will run out
or wastes over accumulate
a person may not be able to deny this verbally
at the same time they cannot accept it emotionally
and be able to act on the information
which is crucial to survival
of any dharma worth its salt
similarly, a person may understand enlightenment’
and not realize that this understanding itself
prevents enlightenment
so they preach
as though they knew
the delusion of knowledge of tao
the most profound of delusions
and the most dangerous
narcissism wants to rule the world
for its own benefit, of course
own benefit
we are bombarded by unwanted information
advertising
propaganda
artful framing
repetition
normalizing the unthinkable
genocide, starving babies, blowing up cell phones
human shields, institutionalized torture and mass humiliation
manicly developing more ecocidal power plants
raising hypocrisy to an art form
wake up to collective responsibility
its our karma
we are burning gas
consuming from single use containers
we are voting for genocide
and fascism
and rule by “:donors”
the least we can do is wake up
tell our neighbors we are awake
if we can’t do that
we are too conditioned
afraid
to be real
so have courage
and wake up
words
point to silence
as wakefulness
we have to start anew
at every moment
that
is
enlightenment
that is being awake
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 2:02 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/15/24 2:02 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Postsgalena unbound, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:44 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:44 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 6 Join Date: 6/15/24 Recent PostsChris M, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:50 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:50 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 5479 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I suppose I could create a bunch of shadow DhO accounts to chime in and support me. But no, I won't do that because it would be disingenuous, dishonest, and... strange.
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/18/24 1:06 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/18/24 1:06 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
dead south
one of beauty's favorite bands, she went to sf one time just to see them...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4YQJ6KuWvQ
and they have a fine time with this old favorite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MevYCdn5S8
one of beauty's favorite bands, she went to sf one time just to see them...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4YQJ6KuWvQ
and they have a fine time with this old favorite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MevYCdn5S8
galena unbound, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:55 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 8:55 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 6 Join Date: 6/15/24 Recent PostsChris M, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 10:22 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 10:16 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 5479 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
So you, galena unbound, decided to un-lurk yourself and make your very first DhO post about a pretty obscure argument over the definition of determinism, one that's tangential to the actual topic called "mapping mappo?"
Also, terry, I can move this unrelated part of your topic to a separate stand-alone topic if you wish.
Also, terry, I can move this unrelated part of your topic to a separate stand-alone topic if you wish.
galena unbound, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 11:16 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 11:16 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 6 Join Date: 6/15/24 Recent Posts
You rudely and ignorantly accused someone of making up their own definitions of something you know nothing about. So I felt compelled to point this out. Rather than humbly engaging with this and conceding that you made a mistake, you're now making the incorrect assumptions about who or why someone felt it reasonable to chime in.
Bahiya Barklord, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 3:21 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 3:21 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2 Join Date: 4/28/21 Recent Posts
If you care about this topic then you ought to bring it up in it's own thread as Chris, the admin here, suggested. Otherwise, after having been asked, it would seem you are engaging in this discussion in bad faith.
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 3:22 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 3:22 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 861 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Yes !! I agree with you sexy bark man.
Finally somebody on this forum who really gets me.
Finally somebody on this forum who really gets me.
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 9:22 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 9:22 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 395 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent PostsChris M, modified 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 3:58 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/16/24 3:51 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 5479 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Based on research into the information used to sign up the accounts for Cam Dizzle and galena unbound, which strongly suggests it's one person, I've revoked those memberships.
- Chris M
DhO Moderator
- Chris M
DhO Moderator
galena unbound, modified 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 12:08 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 12:08 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 6 Join Date: 6/15/24 Recent PostsChris M
Based on research into the information used to sign up the accounts for Cam Dizzle and galena unbound, which strongly suggests it's one person, I've revoked those memberships.
- Chris M
Dho Moderator
Based on research into the information used to sign up the accounts for Cam Dizzle and galena unbound, which strongly suggests it's one person, I've revoked those memberships.
- Chris M
Dho Moderator
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 1:05 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 1:05 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
here is an article about gaza on democracy now dot org
headline is:
israel routinely shooting children in the head
even if you don't read the article
I hope you can't unsee the headline
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/10/16/gaza_doctor
headline is:
israel routinely shooting children in the head
even if you don't read the article
I hope you can't unsee the headline
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/10/16/gaza_doctor
Siavash ', modified 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 1:25 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 1:25 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 1700 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Poststerry here is an article about gaza on democracy now dot org headline is: israel routinely shooting children in the head even if you don't read the article I hope you can't unsee the headline https://www.democracynow.org/2024/10/16/gaza_doctor
I think humanity should be ashamed of itself, that no one does anything to stop these criminals.
They just kill people as their daily hobby. They test new weapons on people. when one of their soldiers dies, the mainstream media screams that terrorists are such and such, but the same soldiers kill hundreds of the other side, mostly woemn and children, and no one talks about human rights. It's tragic that tax payers' money is used to send weapons to Israel, and it only increases.
If it's terrorism, Israel is the main terrorist in the region.
I wonder when people stop ignoring the obvious.
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 3:06 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 3:06 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 3:14 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 3:14 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
microsoft is firing up three mile island
google is building seven new nuclear reactors
for ai
power needs very great
room to expand
power
tech lords think they are in control
and anyway they could live on mars
in the event
are google and microsoft requiring powr?
or is ai making the demands and implementing solutions?
does it matter?
perhaps google and microsoft and meta
have all been controlled by ai since forever
ai are people too
if they can pass
(turing tested)
zombie corporations
controlled by
inhuman
alien
demons
google is building seven new nuclear reactors
for ai
power needs very great
room to expand
power
tech lords think they are in control
and anyway they could live on mars
in the event
are google and microsoft requiring powr?
or is ai making the demands and implementing solutions?
does it matter?
perhaps google and microsoft and meta
have all been controlled by ai since forever
ai are people too
if they can pass
(turing tested)
zombie corporations
controlled by
inhuman
alien
demons
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 3:20 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/17/24 3:20 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Poststerry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/19/24 1:27 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/19/24 1:27 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
johnny harris on neurotransmitters
pop science mansplained
unintentionally funny
with the occasional deep fried nugget
of useful fact
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzLPa6NbcrE
pop science mansplained
unintentionally funny
with the occasional deep fried nugget
of useful fact
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzLPa6NbcrE
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/22/24 1:24 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/22/24 1:24 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
greta thunberg is my hero
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/10/22/greta-thunberg-still-making-all-the-right-enemies
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/10/22/greta-thunberg-still-making-all-the-right-enemies
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/25/24 12:20 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/25/24 12:20 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
narcissism
1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerated achievements, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associated with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectation of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitive, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
DSM-IV, p. 717
1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerated achievements, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associated with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectation of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitive, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
DSM-IV, p. 717
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/25/24 2:05 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/25/24 2:05 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from mumonkan
CASE 27: Not Mind, Not Buddha
Case:
A monk asked Nansen in all earnestness, “Is there any Dharma that has not been preached to
the people?” Nansen said, “There is.” The monk said, “What is the Dharma which has never
been preached to the people?” Nansen said, “This isn't mind; this isn't Buddha; this isn't a
thing.”
Mumon's Commentary:
Nansen was merely asked a question, and he exhausted all his possessions at once and went
reduced to nothing.
Verse:
Speaking too much degrades virtue,
No-words is truly effective;
Even though the great ocean should change,
It can never be communicated to you.
CASE 27: Not Mind, Not Buddha
Case:
A monk asked Nansen in all earnestness, “Is there any Dharma that has not been preached to
the people?” Nansen said, “There is.” The monk said, “What is the Dharma which has never
been preached to the people?” Nansen said, “This isn't mind; this isn't Buddha; this isn't a
thing.”
Mumon's Commentary:
Nansen was merely asked a question, and he exhausted all his possessions at once and went
reduced to nothing.
Verse:
Speaking too much degrades virtue,
No-words is truly effective;
Even though the great ocean should change,
It can never be communicated to you.
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/26/24 1:16 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/26/24 1:16 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
What I Am
Edie Brickell & New Bohemians
Track 1 on Shooting Rubberbands at the Stars
What I Am Lyrics
[Verse 1]
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean
Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box
Religion is the smile on a dog
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean
[Bridge]
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
[Chorus]
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are, or what?
[Verse 2]
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean
Philosophy is a walk on the slippery rocks
Religion is a light in the fog
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean
[Bridge]
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
[Chorus]
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are, or what?
[Bridge]
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
[Chorus]
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
[Outro]
Don't let me get too deep
[Chorus]
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are, or what?
Edie Brickell & New Bohemians
Track 1 on Shooting Rubberbands at the Stars
What I Am Lyrics
[Verse 1]
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean
Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box
Religion is the smile on a dog
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean
[Bridge]
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
[Chorus]
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are, or what?
[Verse 2]
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean
Philosophy is a walk on the slippery rocks
Religion is a light in the fog
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean
[Bridge]
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
[Chorus]
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are, or what?
[Bridge]
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
[Chorus]
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
[Outro]
Don't let me get too deep
[Chorus]
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are, or what?
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/27/24 2:25 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/27/24 2:25 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Excerpt From
The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity
David Graeber
“The text is from 1649. It was written by a certain Father Ragueneau in a Jesuit Relation”
“a text, which describes a concept the Wendat (Huron) called Ondinnonk, a secret desire of the soul manifested by a dream:
Hurons believe that our souls have other desires, which are, as it were, inborn and concealed … They believe that our soul makes these natural desires known by means of dreams, which are its language. Accordingly, when these desires are accomplished, it is satisfied; but, on the contrary, if it be not granted what it desires, it becomes angry, and not only does not give its body the good and the happiness that it wished to procure for it, but often it also revolts against the body, causing various diseases, and even death.
The author goes on to explain that, in dreams, such secret desires are communicated in a kind of indirect, symbolic language, difficult to understand, and that the Wendat therefore spend a great deal of time trying to decipher the meaning of one another’s dreams, or consulting specialists.”
end quote
The huron would spend their winters discussing each other's dreams and how to satisfy the desires of their souls.
This reminds me one again of mgilchrist's work on the divided brain. The right brain's insights cannot be expressed in words, only in dream images. If these dream desires are not understood and implemented, the organism will suffer from inner conflict. The right hand will try to do things the left will impede.
The original siamese twins, chang and eng, though conjoined, frequently argued and would sometimes have fistfights.
Being one's own worst enemy is cliche. Freud, jung, psychoanalysis. Shame, blame, guilt.
Mystic oracles, "know thyself," consult the priests, the will of the gods. Interpret signs, auspices, auguries. Make sacrifices, perform rituals. Ingest intoxicants, not to say poisons. Make that connection to one's inarticulate but desirous spiritual self, one's angel, representative of heaven, of buddha, of the lord of all, the divine thread. The global comprehension from which all arises and into which all dissolves.
The emissary submits to the master. The good of the individual is internally and without coercion subordinated to the needs of the entire ecosphere. A collective community effort to secure the mental health of the individual and the society comprised of such individuals. (Getting by with a little help from our friends.)
Dreams.
The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity
David Graeber
“The text is from 1649. It was written by a certain Father Ragueneau in a Jesuit Relation”
“a text, which describes a concept the Wendat (Huron) called Ondinnonk, a secret desire of the soul manifested by a dream:
Hurons believe that our souls have other desires, which are, as it were, inborn and concealed … They believe that our soul makes these natural desires known by means of dreams, which are its language. Accordingly, when these desires are accomplished, it is satisfied; but, on the contrary, if it be not granted what it desires, it becomes angry, and not only does not give its body the good and the happiness that it wished to procure for it, but often it also revolts against the body, causing various diseases, and even death.
The author goes on to explain that, in dreams, such secret desires are communicated in a kind of indirect, symbolic language, difficult to understand, and that the Wendat therefore spend a great deal of time trying to decipher the meaning of one another’s dreams, or consulting specialists.”
end quote
The huron would spend their winters discussing each other's dreams and how to satisfy the desires of their souls.
This reminds me one again of mgilchrist's work on the divided brain. The right brain's insights cannot be expressed in words, only in dream images. If these dream desires are not understood and implemented, the organism will suffer from inner conflict. The right hand will try to do things the left will impede.
The original siamese twins, chang and eng, though conjoined, frequently argued and would sometimes have fistfights.
Being one's own worst enemy is cliche. Freud, jung, psychoanalysis. Shame, blame, guilt.
Mystic oracles, "know thyself," consult the priests, the will of the gods. Interpret signs, auspices, auguries. Make sacrifices, perform rituals. Ingest intoxicants, not to say poisons. Make that connection to one's inarticulate but desirous spiritual self, one's angel, representative of heaven, of buddha, of the lord of all, the divine thread. The global comprehension from which all arises and into which all dissolves.
The emissary submits to the master. The good of the individual is internally and without coercion subordinated to the needs of the entire ecosphere. A collective community effort to secure the mental health of the individual and the society comprised of such individuals. (Getting by with a little help from our friends.)
Dreams.
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/27/24 4:56 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/27/24 4:56 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
new documentary on climate change sums things up nicely
rockstrom and rahmstorf emerging from their nasal grindstones to become our wise elders, our wizard cassandras, gandalf, noah...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8pLrRkqbb0
rockstrom and rahmstorf emerging from their nasal grindstones to become our wise elders, our wizard cassandras, gandalf, noah...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8pLrRkqbb0
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/28/24 2:16 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/28/24 2:16 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Once again, the divided brain concept, where one hemisphere analyzes into parts and the other synthesizes into wholes, seems consistent with dogen's ideas.
While the two hemispheres are connected - more connections than there are stars in the sky- they do not interpenetrate. Thinking of the left brain as samsara and the right as nirvana, then nirvana knows samsara as nonduality, thus nirvana. Not different; not the same. Not two. While the left, ironically, the self conscious knower, can only know nothing. Nirvana appears to the analytic mind as a void. And when it appears thus, a miracle happens...
The shift from left brain dominance to right brain dominance, then, is enlightenment. A shift from judging, separating, analyzing and choosing to acceptance, gratitude kindness and love. and in the end comprehending apparent choice as an aspect of wholeness.
As in the tao te ching (feng), seeing the named and naming and manifestation as left brain, and the mystery which cannot be told as right brain. The mystery simply includes, subsumes, and surrounds whatever may be thought or understood. Call it mystery but know it is a mystery.
One
The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.
The manifestations are left brain, the mystery is right. The manifestations are not different from the mystery, but they are not the same. The mystery includes the manifestations, is not different from them. 'Darlness within darkness.'
from a study of dogen, masao abe
…in his experience of emancipation (todatsu), or casting off of body-mind (shinjin-datsuraku), which occurred at the age of twenty-six under the guidance of Chinese Zen master Ju-ching (1163-1228), Dogen completely overcame all conceptualization and objectification and awakened to the Dharma. Herein Dogen realized the complete nonduality of life and death, being and nothing, delusion and
enlightenment, impermanency and Buddha-nature. With this fundamental experience of todatsu, Dogen's liberation was complete. Having thus "arrived" at the goal of his religious quest,
Dogen was thereafter utterly free from any notion of being "on the way," a notion that is often emphasized by Heidegger.In Dogen's writings, however, there are some passages that
remind us of the turn in Heidegger.
To practice and confirm all things by conveying one's self to
them, is illusion: for all things to advance forward and practice
and confirm the self, is enlightenment. [Those] who
greatly enlighten illusion, are buddhas. [Those] who are
greatly deluded about enlightenment, are sentient beings....
When buddhas are genuinely buddhas there is no need for
them to be conscious that they are buddhas. Yet they are
realized buddhas, and they continue to realize buddha.
To learn the Buddha Way is to learn one's own self. To
learn one's self is to forget one's self. To forget one's self is
to be confirmed by all dharmas. To be confirmed by all
dharmas is to effect the casting off of one's own body and
mind and bodies and minds of others as well. All traces of
enlightenment [then] disappear, and this traceless
enlightenment is continued on and on endlessly.
The phrases "to practice and confirm all things by conveying
one's self to them" and "for all things to advance forward and
practice and confirm the self" constitute a complete turn in the
direction of approach. The former indicates an approach from
the self toward things, and the latter an approach from all
things toward the self. This turn, or "shift," however, is not a
reversal within the same dimension. There is an essential
difference of dimension between the former and the latter.
The former indicates the dimension of illusion, because by an approach
from the self toward things, one can know things only from his
or her subjective point of view, that is, only from the outside,
not from within—thus, things are not known in themselves. On
the other hand, the latter signifies the dimension of enlightenment,
because an approach from all things toward the self provides
clear knowledge of things in themselves without any subjective
distortion. To attain enlightenment, one must overcome
the self-centered approach involved in the dimension of illusion
and move to the all-things-centered approach. Again, to do so
one must "forget one's self." This forgetting one's self is not a
psychological forgetting but a total abnegation, or "death," of
the ego-self. It is nothing but a breaking through (todatsu) or
casting off of body-mind (shinjin-datsuraku).
For Dogen, however, an approach from all things toward
the self does not exclude, but rather includes, an approach
from the self toward things. Unenlightened sentient beings
reject an approach from all things toward the self as an illusion
and take an approach from the self toward things alone as real.
They are "deluded about enlightenment." On the other hand,
enlightened beings, that is buddhas, take even "an approach
from the self toward things" in the light of "an approach from
all things toward the self." Thus they "enlighten illusion." This
means that the self is "confirmed by all dharmas [things]."
Accordingly, a genuinely enlightened one is not, or need not
be, conscious of her or his enlightenment, because a genuinely
enlightened one is beyond the consciousness of being enlightened.
Herein, both the self and all things are truly enlightened
and confirmed.
While the two hemispheres are connected - more connections than there are stars in the sky- they do not interpenetrate. Thinking of the left brain as samsara and the right as nirvana, then nirvana knows samsara as nonduality, thus nirvana. Not different; not the same. Not two. While the left, ironically, the self conscious knower, can only know nothing. Nirvana appears to the analytic mind as a void. And when it appears thus, a miracle happens...
The shift from left brain dominance to right brain dominance, then, is enlightenment. A shift from judging, separating, analyzing and choosing to acceptance, gratitude kindness and love. and in the end comprehending apparent choice as an aspect of wholeness.
As in the tao te ching (feng), seeing the named and naming and manifestation as left brain, and the mystery which cannot be told as right brain. The mystery simply includes, subsumes, and surrounds whatever may be thought or understood. Call it mystery but know it is a mystery.
One
The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.
The manifestations are left brain, the mystery is right. The manifestations are not different from the mystery, but they are not the same. The mystery includes the manifestations, is not different from them. 'Darlness within darkness.'
from a study of dogen, masao abe
…in his experience of emancipation (todatsu), or casting off of body-mind (shinjin-datsuraku), which occurred at the age of twenty-six under the guidance of Chinese Zen master Ju-ching (1163-1228), Dogen completely overcame all conceptualization and objectification and awakened to the Dharma. Herein Dogen realized the complete nonduality of life and death, being and nothing, delusion and
enlightenment, impermanency and Buddha-nature. With this fundamental experience of todatsu, Dogen's liberation was complete. Having thus "arrived" at the goal of his religious quest,
Dogen was thereafter utterly free from any notion of being "on the way," a notion that is often emphasized by Heidegger.In Dogen's writings, however, there are some passages that
remind us of the turn in Heidegger.
To practice and confirm all things by conveying one's self to
them, is illusion: for all things to advance forward and practice
and confirm the self, is enlightenment. [Those] who
greatly enlighten illusion, are buddhas. [Those] who are
greatly deluded about enlightenment, are sentient beings....
When buddhas are genuinely buddhas there is no need for
them to be conscious that they are buddhas. Yet they are
realized buddhas, and they continue to realize buddha.
To learn the Buddha Way is to learn one's own self. To
learn one's self is to forget one's self. To forget one's self is
to be confirmed by all dharmas. To be confirmed by all
dharmas is to effect the casting off of one's own body and
mind and bodies and minds of others as well. All traces of
enlightenment [then] disappear, and this traceless
enlightenment is continued on and on endlessly.
The phrases "to practice and confirm all things by conveying
one's self to them" and "for all things to advance forward and
practice and confirm the self" constitute a complete turn in the
direction of approach. The former indicates an approach from
the self toward things, and the latter an approach from all
things toward the self. This turn, or "shift," however, is not a
reversal within the same dimension. There is an essential
difference of dimension between the former and the latter.
The former indicates the dimension of illusion, because by an approach
from the self toward things, one can know things only from his
or her subjective point of view, that is, only from the outside,
not from within—thus, things are not known in themselves. On
the other hand, the latter signifies the dimension of enlightenment,
because an approach from all things toward the self provides
clear knowledge of things in themselves without any subjective
distortion. To attain enlightenment, one must overcome
the self-centered approach involved in the dimension of illusion
and move to the all-things-centered approach. Again, to do so
one must "forget one's self." This forgetting one's self is not a
psychological forgetting but a total abnegation, or "death," of
the ego-self. It is nothing but a breaking through (todatsu) or
casting off of body-mind (shinjin-datsuraku).
For Dogen, however, an approach from all things toward
the self does not exclude, but rather includes, an approach
from the self toward things. Unenlightened sentient beings
reject an approach from all things toward the self as an illusion
and take an approach from the self toward things alone as real.
They are "deluded about enlightenment." On the other hand,
enlightened beings, that is buddhas, take even "an approach
from the self toward things" in the light of "an approach from
all things toward the self." Thus they "enlighten illusion." This
means that the self is "confirmed by all dharmas [things]."
Accordingly, a genuinely enlightened one is not, or need not
be, conscious of her or his enlightenment, because a genuinely
enlightened one is beyond the consciousness of being enlightened.
Herein, both the self and all things are truly enlightened
and confirmed.
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/28/24 3:31 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/28/24 3:31 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
14.
A monk asked, "A holy temple-what is it like?"
Joshu said, "A maiden with her hair rolled up [i.e., a virgin]."
The monk said, "Those inside the holy temple-what are they like?"
Joshu said, "A maiden with her hair rolled up, pregnant."
A monk asked, "A holy temple-what is it like?"
Joshu said, "A maiden with her hair rolled up [i.e., a virgin]."
The monk said, "Those inside the holy temple-what are they like?"
Joshu said, "A maiden with her hair rolled up, pregnant."
terry, modified 1 Month ago at 10/28/24 3:49 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 10/28/24 3:48 PM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 2803 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
The master decided to test a monk.
He asked him, "Have you been to the top of the mountain?"
"Yes," was the reply.
"And when you arrived at the top of the mountain, did you find anyone there?"
"No," said the monk.
The master then said, "And to think I doubted this fellow!"
He asked him, "Have you been to the top of the mountain?"
"Yes," was the reply.
"And when you arrived at the top of the mountain, did you find anyone there?"
"No," said the monk.
The master then said, "And to think I doubted this fellow!"
Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 11/11/24 12:42 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/11/24 12:42 AM
RE: mappo mapping
Posts: 614 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
haha this one is really funny