How First Path changed your life? - Discussion
How First Path changed your life?
Diogo Kelles Fonseca, modified 1 Month ago at 11/7/24 11:53 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/7/24 11:53 AM
How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 27 Join Date: 6/25/15 Recent Posts
I'm curious about how you guys life changed after first path.
I'll go first.
Since I was a kid I had horrible existential dread episodes, and I desperatly wanted to attain enlightenment to get rid of them. When I attained first path, those episodes stopped doing any dmg, kinda like I was expecting.
Other then that, I don't see any dramatic change, but this was a buttload of suffering I unloaded.
What about you fam?
Also curious about how further paths attainement further changed ppls lives.
Bless all.
I'll go first.
Since I was a kid I had horrible existential dread episodes, and I desperatly wanted to attain enlightenment to get rid of them. When I attained first path, those episodes stopped doing any dmg, kinda like I was expecting.
Other then that, I don't see any dramatic change, but this was a buttload of suffering I unloaded.
What about you fam?
Also curious about how further paths attainement further changed ppls lives.
Bless all.
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 11/7/24 3:39 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/7/24 3:39 PM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 867 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Yeah, I also had episodes of existential dread, depression, suicidal ideation etc. My life had become largely unliveable, I could barely socialize, I wasn't creative, motivated, fit, healthy, open and worst of all I wasn't honest with myself or others... I felt so bad all the time and struggled against it for so long It really sucked. That all changed after first path and the intense negative episodes were as good as gone by third.
I think after first path anxiety and sensitivity got dialled up a bit. I definitely got a bit edgy and intense for awhile yet life was much, much more liveable. It was also the beginning of becoming an honest, authentic and compassionate person, a journey to which, though I have far to go, I am still dedicated.
I think after first path anxiety and sensitivity got dialled up a bit. I definitely got a bit edgy and intense for awhile yet life was much, much more liveable. It was also the beginning of becoming an honest, authentic and compassionate person, a journey to which, though I have far to go, I am still dedicated.
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 4:33 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 4:33 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 219 Join Date: 8/20/18 Recent Posts
I think there is a big confusion here. Insights into wisdom don't necessarily translate into emotional wellbeing. It doesn't necessarily translate into better ethics. There are numerous examples of highly dysfunctional realized people.
This confusion is to my mind like the confusion that leads to applying quantum mechanics to meso-scale objects.
These are simply different axis of development. I think D Ingram does a good job at this in his MCTB.
ps: I don't know what "paths" are. So you may discard what I said as totally irrelevant.
This confusion is to my mind like the confusion that leads to applying quantum mechanics to meso-scale objects.
These are simply different axis of development. I think D Ingram does a good job at this in his MCTB.
ps: I don't know what "paths" are. So you may discard what I said as totally irrelevant.
pixelcloud *, modified 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 9:19 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 6:43 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 19 Join Date: 10/25/24 Recent Posts
Emotional wellbeing can be defined in different ways. Daniel Ingram (in the Guru Viking episode with Delson Armstrong) also relates Bill Hamilton's model where each path attainment reduces suffering by 20 percent, with death erradicating the last 20. Where he also says that for him (DI), he would rate 1st and 4th higher in reduction of suffering. See also the Guru Viking episode with Har Prakash Khalsa, long term student of Shinzen Young and teacher in his system, were he talks about what he uses as criteria to evaluate events happening to students. Where he says that the big, big thing he looks for after a possible SE is reduction in suffering. So the perceptual shifts really seem to do that for many practitioners.
Some aspect of stickyness of emotions gets reduced with each of these shifts, but they don't in themselves resolve the issues at the heart of, for example, attachment wounds, etc. Or if they do, it's by chance, not because that is what path attainments generally do. As Hamilton also writes, if I remember correctly.
Btw, Ingram also clearly defines path attainments in MCTB. It might help to read it more than once as we all have the tendecy to reduce a 600+ page book down to what stuck in our minds and what we could relate to.
For me, there was a noticeable increase in wellbeing that I would say was due to a reduction in sensory friction. As I model it, the path attainments basically increase bandwidth and detail resolution of attention/the phenomenal display at baseline, and the first upgrade in that respect brought a constant effortless apprehension of sensate flow in the body that often felt like being gently massaged, and an increased sense of spaciousness in the way perception worked or presented generally. That just felt better, significantly better. Being awake (Edit: In the conventional sense of not being asleep at night, of just walking around day to day baseline feeling tone) just felt good now, it was a process of sensate flow for parts of perception where before it was ALL solid and contracted. But there was also the interesting observation that yes, woo-hoo, major upgrade, but it seemed to really be "just" 20 percent. A significant first step, a deep appreciation that the techniques work, that the old Buddhists monks and nuns truly figured out something fundamental about how to work with this bodymind thing, but the increases in perceptual ability also hightlighted what remained unaffected by that perceptual shift. Now I was a fuck up with some meditation chops and some seemingly permanent perceptual upgrades. So far, so good.
The first days were also quite irritating for me, since it was a roller coaster of the new perceptual vista being hugely distracting (as it seemed back then) by virtue of it's new detail richness. "Hm. Seems like I'm not in the breezy EQ territory anymore..."
I started to notice cycling, in stark contrast to where there was none before. Suddenly feeling very up, then kinda languid, suddenly noticing some quick worst case scenario images flickering through in a way I never had before, things like that.
After a day or two I finally I sat my ass down and started working on review practice, immedately saw that meditation sits now started in a 2nd jhana/ A&P like buzz, I started to explore the stages, their vibratory signatures, eventually called them up out of order, started to get repeat unknowing events that checked many of the boxes of fruitions (Except clear three doors phenomenology. I never was able to make much progress there. My only quite clear entrance to fruition was the second path one, where that side colapsing into this side was the dominant aspect). To be able to get to these deeply refreshing mental resets was just great. These mainly happened on the cushion and during nap time (as I found out after reading the passage in MCTB2 that talks about that and playing with resolutions to have some while falling asleep). I only ever had two fruitions in daily life. I sometimes noticed that the system learned to go to fruition as a new way of recovery. I remember being super tired after a bad night's sleep, visiting my family, lying down for a nap and, without inclination to go there, unknowing event blips just started to happen on the verge of sleep. When I woke up half an hour later, I felt completey restored.
After SE, the visual field was different in a very... "luminosity" kinda way. In the early days, the first thing I would do upon waking up I was too look around to see if things still seemed more vivid, more present, more intrinsically aware, like they appeared over twenty years earlier, when the few times I took mushrooms or LSD, the drug would start to kick in. That was a very present thing after 1st path, the way the visual field was so much more immediate. It went away as a dominant aspect upon hitting 2nd, to come back at the next shift.
It also was stream entry, quite literally. Insight-itis. Now the only way out was through, no turning back possible. Practice made for further progress, and within weeks there was the feeling of reconsolidation, of having regressed, that announced the next layer of mind presenting itself. One day a sit went super buzzy jhanic and just wouldn't wind down for a long time. New A&P. And then the fractal mess of the next DN, where it sometimes seemed that some of the stages had micro stages, with an EQ-like fluxing out, some sort of blib, and then it was into more DN interestingness.
So, pretty much variations on a general theme that many technical practioners report.
Thank you Daniel and Shargrol for normalizing so much that occured on my journey, and for giving so many helpful navigation tips. After SE, Shargrol's Post Compilation, MCTB2 and the rapid fire round of Daniel Ingram's first Guru Viking interview became constant companions.
Some aspect of stickyness of emotions gets reduced with each of these shifts, but they don't in themselves resolve the issues at the heart of, for example, attachment wounds, etc. Or if they do, it's by chance, not because that is what path attainments generally do. As Hamilton also writes, if I remember correctly.
Btw, Ingram also clearly defines path attainments in MCTB. It might help to read it more than once as we all have the tendecy to reduce a 600+ page book down to what stuck in our minds and what we could relate to.
For me, there was a noticeable increase in wellbeing that I would say was due to a reduction in sensory friction. As I model it, the path attainments basically increase bandwidth and detail resolution of attention/the phenomenal display at baseline, and the first upgrade in that respect brought a constant effortless apprehension of sensate flow in the body that often felt like being gently massaged, and an increased sense of spaciousness in the way perception worked or presented generally. That just felt better, significantly better. Being awake (Edit: In the conventional sense of not being asleep at night, of just walking around day to day baseline feeling tone) just felt good now, it was a process of sensate flow for parts of perception where before it was ALL solid and contracted. But there was also the interesting observation that yes, woo-hoo, major upgrade, but it seemed to really be "just" 20 percent. A significant first step, a deep appreciation that the techniques work, that the old Buddhists monks and nuns truly figured out something fundamental about how to work with this bodymind thing, but the increases in perceptual ability also hightlighted what remained unaffected by that perceptual shift. Now I was a fuck up with some meditation chops and some seemingly permanent perceptual upgrades. So far, so good.
The first days were also quite irritating for me, since it was a roller coaster of the new perceptual vista being hugely distracting (as it seemed back then) by virtue of it's new detail richness. "Hm. Seems like I'm not in the breezy EQ territory anymore..."
I started to notice cycling, in stark contrast to where there was none before. Suddenly feeling very up, then kinda languid, suddenly noticing some quick worst case scenario images flickering through in a way I never had before, things like that.
After a day or two I finally I sat my ass down and started working on review practice, immedately saw that meditation sits now started in a 2nd jhana/ A&P like buzz, I started to explore the stages, their vibratory signatures, eventually called them up out of order, started to get repeat unknowing events that checked many of the boxes of fruitions (Except clear three doors phenomenology. I never was able to make much progress there. My only quite clear entrance to fruition was the second path one, where that side colapsing into this side was the dominant aspect). To be able to get to these deeply refreshing mental resets was just great. These mainly happened on the cushion and during nap time (as I found out after reading the passage in MCTB2 that talks about that and playing with resolutions to have some while falling asleep). I only ever had two fruitions in daily life. I sometimes noticed that the system learned to go to fruition as a new way of recovery. I remember being super tired after a bad night's sleep, visiting my family, lying down for a nap and, without inclination to go there, unknowing event blips just started to happen on the verge of sleep. When I woke up half an hour later, I felt completey restored.
After SE, the visual field was different in a very... "luminosity" kinda way. In the early days, the first thing I would do upon waking up I was too look around to see if things still seemed more vivid, more present, more intrinsically aware, like they appeared over twenty years earlier, when the few times I took mushrooms or LSD, the drug would start to kick in. That was a very present thing after 1st path, the way the visual field was so much more immediate. It went away as a dominant aspect upon hitting 2nd, to come back at the next shift.
It also was stream entry, quite literally. Insight-itis. Now the only way out was through, no turning back possible. Practice made for further progress, and within weeks there was the feeling of reconsolidation, of having regressed, that announced the next layer of mind presenting itself. One day a sit went super buzzy jhanic and just wouldn't wind down for a long time. New A&P. And then the fractal mess of the next DN, where it sometimes seemed that some of the stages had micro stages, with an EQ-like fluxing out, some sort of blib, and then it was into more DN interestingness.
So, pretty much variations on a general theme that many technical practioners report.
Thank you Daniel and Shargrol for normalizing so much that occured on my journey, and for giving so many helpful navigation tips. After SE, Shargrol's Post Compilation, MCTB2 and the rapid fire round of Daniel Ingram's first Guru Viking interview became constant companions.
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 9:35 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 9:35 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 219 Join Date: 8/20/18 Recent PostsMartin, modified 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 10:31 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 10:29 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 1059 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
There are an infinite number of insights that can occur, even without meditation. Some lead to reduced suffering, some don't. Some lead to increased suffering. Some lead to better relations with the people around us, some don't. Some lead to worse relations. This is not Buddhism, this is ordinary life. But Buddhism teaches that some forms of meditation, in combination with some ways of looking at the world and some lifestyle choices will, in fact, lead to insights that reduce or transform suffering for us and/or those around us.
Some Buddhists are unhappy, or angry, or unkind. That does not mean they have had no insights. It means that they have had insights that did not end their unhappiness, anger, or unkindness. But it also does not mean that there are no insights that lead to the end of unhappiness, anger, or unkindness.
This gives us yogis a lot to work with. If you see someone who, as a result of insights, lives a life that looks like it would suit you, study what that person did. If you see someone who, as a result of insights, or perhaps in spite of certain insights, lives a life that looks like it would not suit you, also study what that person did.
There is definitely a path that leads to emotional well-being. Being free of compulsion, being free of anger, being free of worry, fear, panic, all those things, massively improves emotional well-being. Without insight into how the mind works, I used to be gripped by those emotions. I could wake up in the night, unable to stop thinking about something. I was always tense when the phone rang or the email dinged, because I knew that some new input (a negative judgment, a confrontation, a problem with work, or money, or health) could lead to all kinds of unhappiness. That was because I didn't how those things happened. I was like a cork on the water, totally at the mercy of the weather. That is gone. Those kind of responses can still bud within my mind, but they do not grow. They last for one or two seconds at most, generally less, because the mind sees them, and the mind does not feed them. Also, I know that I know how it works, so there is no worry about some unknown future problem coming along that will lead to great suffering. I know that it won't. That leads to emotional well-being. It's great!
I really want to emphasize this. There is a path that leads to the end of suffering! Wow! Fuck yeah!
Unfortunately, I cannot locate myself on a map of attainment other than to say it is an unbelievable improvement but I can also see that there is more to be learned. So I can't say you can expect similar results at some exact juncture. What I can say is, similar results can be expected. It's not random and it's not a fairytale. Certain insights into wisdom DO translate into emotional well-being.
Some Buddhists are unhappy, or angry, or unkind. That does not mean they have had no insights. It means that they have had insights that did not end their unhappiness, anger, or unkindness. But it also does not mean that there are no insights that lead to the end of unhappiness, anger, or unkindness.
This gives us yogis a lot to work with. If you see someone who, as a result of insights, lives a life that looks like it would suit you, study what that person did. If you see someone who, as a result of insights, or perhaps in spite of certain insights, lives a life that looks like it would not suit you, also study what that person did.
There is definitely a path that leads to emotional well-being. Being free of compulsion, being free of anger, being free of worry, fear, panic, all those things, massively improves emotional well-being. Without insight into how the mind works, I used to be gripped by those emotions. I could wake up in the night, unable to stop thinking about something. I was always tense when the phone rang or the email dinged, because I knew that some new input (a negative judgment, a confrontation, a problem with work, or money, or health) could lead to all kinds of unhappiness. That was because I didn't how those things happened. I was like a cork on the water, totally at the mercy of the weather. That is gone. Those kind of responses can still bud within my mind, but they do not grow. They last for one or two seconds at most, generally less, because the mind sees them, and the mind does not feed them. Also, I know that I know how it works, so there is no worry about some unknown future problem coming along that will lead to great suffering. I know that it won't. That leads to emotional well-being. It's great!
I really want to emphasize this. There is a path that leads to the end of suffering! Wow! Fuck yeah!
Unfortunately, I cannot locate myself on a map of attainment other than to say it is an unbelievable improvement but I can also see that there is more to be learned. So I can't say you can expect similar results at some exact juncture. What I can say is, similar results can be expected. It's not random and it's not a fairytale. Certain insights into wisdom DO translate into emotional well-being.
Diogo Kelles Fonseca, modified 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 10:50 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 10:50 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 27 Join Date: 6/25/15 Recent PostsTodo
I think there is a big confusion here. Insights into wisdom don't necessarily translate into emotional wellbeing. It doesn't necessarily translate into better ethics. There are numerous examples of highly dysfunctional realized people.
This confusion is to my mind like the confusion that leads to applying quantum mechanics to meso-scale objects.
These are simply different axis of development. I think D Ingram does a good job at this in his MCTB.
ps: I don't know what "paths" are. So you may discard what I said as totally irrelevant.
I think there is a big confusion here. Insights into wisdom don't necessarily translate into emotional wellbeing. It doesn't necessarily translate into better ethics. There are numerous examples of highly dysfunctional realized people.
This confusion is to my mind like the confusion that leads to applying quantum mechanics to meso-scale objects.
These are simply different axis of development. I think D Ingram does a good job at this in his MCTB.
ps: I don't know what "paths" are. So you may discard what I said as totally irrelevant.
1st path means 1st degree of enlightenment, 2nd path 2nd degree, etc.
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 11:03 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 11:02 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 219 Join Date: 8/20/18 Recent Posts
Just something my university teachers drilled into me:
"Correlation is NOT causation"
Also something I see a lot in "spiritual circles": This is what worked for me. Implying, or sometimes, clearly saying that it would work for you.
i think "spirituality" would benefit a lot from the scientific method (please note I didn't say science). Sure a lot of spiritual stuff isn't readily expressible (?) in words. And this unfortunately has led to an immense boat load of BS. Some of it brought Millions, if not, Billions to spiritual superstars (I am thinking here of Deepak C).
ps I don't think suffering, the word used to translate dukkha, applies exactly/only/mainly/specifically to "emotional suffering".
ps2: I realize that this being posted as a reply to a particular individual this can be construed as a critique of him or what he said. It isn't. I just sort of use this as an opportunity to express ideas that I would like to submit to the board members as a community.
"Correlation is NOT causation"
Also something I see a lot in "spiritual circles": This is what worked for me. Implying, or sometimes, clearly saying that it would work for you.
i think "spirituality" would benefit a lot from the scientific method (please note I didn't say science). Sure a lot of spiritual stuff isn't readily expressible (?) in words. And this unfortunately has led to an immense boat load of BS. Some of it brought Millions, if not, Billions to spiritual superstars (I am thinking here of Deepak C).
ps I don't think suffering, the word used to translate dukkha, applies exactly/only/mainly/specifically to "emotional suffering".
ps2: I realize that this being posted as a reply to a particular individual this can be construed as a critique of him or what he said. It isn't. I just sort of use this as an opportunity to express ideas that I would like to submit to the board members as a community.
Diogo Kelles Fonseca, modified 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 11:17 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 11:17 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 27 Join Date: 6/25/15 Recent PostsTodo
i think "spirituality" would benefit a lot from the scientific method (please note I didn't say science). Sure a lot of spiritual stuff isn't readily expressible (?) in words. And this unfortunately has led to an immense boat load of BS. Some of it brought Millions, if not, Billions to spiritual superstars (I am thinking here of Deepak C).
i think "spirituality" would benefit a lot from the scientific method (please note I didn't say science). Sure a lot of spiritual stuff isn't readily expressible (?) in words. And this unfortunately has led to an immense boat load of BS. Some of it brought Millions, if not, Billions to spiritual superstars (I am thinking here of Deepak C).
It is probably really hard to study, I'm not a where of good methods to study spiritual phenomena. Maybe in another one or two centuries.
Diogo Kelles Fonseca, modified 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 11:33 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 11:27 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 27 Join Date: 6/25/15 Recent Postspixelcloud *
Btw, Ingram also clearly defines path attainments in MCTB. It might help to read it more than once as we all have the tendecy to reduce a 600+ page book down to what stuck in our minds and what we could relate to.
Btw, Ingram also clearly defines path attainments in MCTB. It might help to read it more than once as we all have the tendecy to reduce a 600+ page book down to what stuck in our minds and what we could relate to.
Martin, modified 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 11:36 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 11:36 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 1059 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
People are studying it now. I think a lot of progress has been made over the past couple of decades. But also, so what?
I think it's a lot like sports. There is scientific research into how to improve sports performance, and it helps. It's useful in getting beginners started safely and getting incremental improvements in world records. But it's a tiny aspect of sports. Direct experience, learning from fellow athletes, and the push and pull of innate biology are so much more important in sports than scientific understanding, that you could stop sport science today, and that would have almost no impact on the miryad benefits of sports.
I have a science background and a science job, so I'm a fan. But while reducing things to predictable numerical values and neat chains for cause and effect is great, it's not everything.
I think it's a lot like sports. There is scientific research into how to improve sports performance, and it helps. It's useful in getting beginners started safely and getting incremental improvements in world records. But it's a tiny aspect of sports. Direct experience, learning from fellow athletes, and the push and pull of innate biology are so much more important in sports than scientific understanding, that you could stop sport science today, and that would have almost no impact on the miryad benefits of sports.
I have a science background and a science job, so I'm a fan. But while reducing things to predictable numerical values and neat chains for cause and effect is great, it's not everything.
Diogo Kelles Fonseca, modified 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 11:59 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 11:59 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 27 Join Date: 6/25/15 Recent PostsMartin
People are studying it now. I think a lot of progress has been made over the past couple of decades. But also, so what?
I think it's a lot like sports. There is scientific research into how to improve sports performance, and it helps. It's useful in getting beginners started safely and getting incremental improvements in world records. But it's a tiny aspect of sports. Direct experience, learning from fellow athletes, and the push and pull of innate biology are so much more important in sports than scientific understanding, that you could stop sport science today, and that would have almost no impact on the miryad benefits of sports.
I have a science background and a science job, so I'm a fan. But while reducing things to predictable numerical values and neat chains for cause and effect is great, it's not everything.
People are studying it now. I think a lot of progress has been made over the past couple of decades. But also, so what?
I think it's a lot like sports. There is scientific research into how to improve sports performance, and it helps. It's useful in getting beginners started safely and getting incremental improvements in world records. But it's a tiny aspect of sports. Direct experience, learning from fellow athletes, and the push and pull of innate biology are so much more important in sports than scientific understanding, that you could stop sport science today, and that would have almost no impact on the miryad benefits of sports.
I have a science background and a science job, so I'm a fan. But while reducing things to predictable numerical values and neat chains for cause and effect is great, it's not everything.
However, we still need to give ppl reasons to practice. Stating the benefits of practice, specially ultimate benefits, loud and clear, is a great way to do that IMO, hence this post.
Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 5:20 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/8/24 5:20 PM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 3145 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent PostsBalint P, modified 1 Month ago at 11/9/24 5:10 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/9/24 5:06 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 74 Join Date: 8/3/18 Recent PostsPapa Che Dusko About 6-12 months after the 1st path I (thankfully) realized that I don't know shit!
B B, modified 1 Month ago at 11/9/24 11:25 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/9/24 11:25 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 57 Join Date: 9/3/16 Recent Posts
In retrospect it has been and will probably remain the most significant and consequential moment of my entire life. Perhaps the most beneficial aspect was the momentum it created in my practice, like being carried along in a stream, where I simply had to press on to further paths and insights. I was certain of the efficacy of the practice and confident in my abilities, and the delusion present in my mindstream could no longer be suppressed or ignored. For many years after that, it felt like there was a glitch or bug in the system that had to be uprooted (i.e. the sense of a dualistic split). It would have been virtually impossible to just quit practicing post-SE and get absorbed in ordinary samsaric activities.
The reduction in suffering aspect was significant, but in retrospect it was just the tip of the iceberg, and in many ways I was probably still more prone to stress and mentally hindered by the 5 poisons than the more high-functioning non-practitioners in society. I really began to appreciate this aspect several years later when it became apparent that literally everyone I was interacting with in daily life was suffering more than me -- I mean just judging intuitively based on the heaviness of their affect, unconscious expressions of stress such as sighing, etc.
The reduction in suffering aspect was significant, but in retrospect it was just the tip of the iceberg, and in many ways I was probably still more prone to stress and mentally hindered by the 5 poisons than the more high-functioning non-practitioners in society. I really began to appreciate this aspect several years later when it became apparent that literally everyone I was interacting with in daily life was suffering more than me -- I mean just judging intuitively based on the heaviness of their affect, unconscious expressions of stress such as sighing, etc.
Conal, modified 1 Month ago at 11/9/24 1:39 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/9/24 1:39 PM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 85 Join Date: 6/3/17 Recent Posts
Yes, for me it was very much the entering the stream thing. There's no going back now. It just made sense of my whole life up to that point and made it clear what the way forward was/is.
I see enlightenment very much as getting back to a previous level of peace and happiness and learning how you fell from grace, so that it doesn't happen again. A lot of it is getting comfortable with going from the non-dualist to the dualist mindset and vice-versa without becoming stuck in either of them. It's basically having the awareness not to get caught up in samsara.
Another thing that is key for me is realising how life is basically flowing. We try to hold it down so that we can examine it but in doing so we lose sight of its most important quality which is impermanence.
Of course none of this actually makes much sense when you write it down because language is inherently dualistic. There is no (conventional) me that this is happening to, for example!!
Conal
I see enlightenment very much as getting back to a previous level of peace and happiness and learning how you fell from grace, so that it doesn't happen again. A lot of it is getting comfortable with going from the non-dualist to the dualist mindset and vice-versa without becoming stuck in either of them. It's basically having the awareness not to get caught up in samsara.
Another thing that is key for me is realising how life is basically flowing. We try to hold it down so that we can examine it but in doing so we lose sight of its most important quality which is impermanence.
Of course none of this actually makes much sense when you write it down because language is inherently dualistic. There is no (conventional) me that this is happening to, for example!!
Conal
Jim Smith, modified 1 Month ago at 11/9/24 2:01 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/9/24 1:42 PM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 1815 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent PostsHow First Path changed your life?
I think you might find these two articles helpful:
Shinzen Young Enlightenment Interview: https://www.lionsroar.com/on-enlightenment-an-interview-with-shinzen-young/
Jack Kornfield, "Enlightenments": https://inquiringmind.com/article/2701_w_kornfield-enlightenments/
I've had many different kinds of experiences like what various people have called call stream entry, but I never thought they were significant, just weird things that happened to my brain from meditating a lot. I am not denying other peopele's experiences just saying not everyone experiences things the same way.
What I did find significant was more like what Shinzen describes as gradual awakening or Kornfield describes as the gateless gate. One day I noticed I was not as irritable as I used to be. I was on the phone with customer support and instead of getting annoyed with the person who was reading from a script without understanding my problem or what he was reading and instead I felt patience and compassion for the person who had an unpleasant job because he needed to pay the bills and support his family. It was a permanent change, reflecting a change in my own understanding of my self importance and how people are not separate (when I looked closely I saw it was more than just being less irritable), and it applied in many different ways in my life, it is not dependent on meditation, and it snuck up on me I can't say exactly when or how it happened.
I don't claim any of the stages of enlightenment because in my experience they don't really happen suddenly the way I have read about. I'm not denying other people's experiences just saying it doesn't work the same for everyone. Shinzen says most of his students awaken gradually (and I suspect the exciting descriptions of sudden awakening have unfortunately oversahdowded the less sensational truth of what most people experiences leading to widespread misunderstanding). I see awakening as a continuous ramp going from 0% to 100% (everyone, even non meditators, has some level of enlightenment and can increase their level by practicing meditation and mindfulness) not a series of four steps. I believe awakening should be measured by what happens in daily life over the long term not what you experience in meditation.
Another way to look at it is awakening is multifaceted or multidimensional. (In the fetter model of awakening there are ten fetters, and there are other models with other facets). Different people develop at different rates in different dimensions so there are many different ways to experience awakening and many different types of awakening (see the article by Kornfield) short of full enlightenement. And so you can't really compare one person to another saying someone is at this stage or that stage.
Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 11/10/24 4:11 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/10/24 4:11 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 3145 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent PostsTodo, modified 1 Month ago at 11/10/24 5:19 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/10/24 5:19 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 219 Join Date: 8/20/18 Recent Posts
"I also have a humanity sciences background, and the more you learn about science philosophy, the more you know about it's limitations"
undeniably science has limitations.
unfortunately, this has always led some to fill those gaps with whatever comes to their minds. As if the fact that science can't explain something gives license to all irrational ideas to thrive.
but we digress. I specifically said "scientific method" & that does not reduce to science. My hope was/is for a "spiritual method". I think the Buddha largely contributed toward that method. But Buddhists deviated from his teachings and often went into speculative philosophizing. At least some of them.
my idea is that his method brings insights that are not "psychological" in nature.
the suffering addressed is not psychological suffering. Dukkha is "fundamental unsatisfactoriness".
one can be highly realized and still experience emotional storms with all their psychological dimensions.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj is an example that comes to mind here.
undeniably science has limitations.
unfortunately, this has always led some to fill those gaps with whatever comes to their minds. As if the fact that science can't explain something gives license to all irrational ideas to thrive.
but we digress. I specifically said "scientific method" & that does not reduce to science. My hope was/is for a "spiritual method". I think the Buddha largely contributed toward that method. But Buddhists deviated from his teachings and often went into speculative philosophizing. At least some of them.
my idea is that his method brings insights that are not "psychological" in nature.
the suffering addressed is not psychological suffering. Dukkha is "fundamental unsatisfactoriness".
one can be highly realized and still experience emotional storms with all their psychological dimensions.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj is an example that comes to mind here.
Truth Seeker, modified 1 Month ago at 11/10/24 2:53 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/10/24 2:53 PM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 105 Join Date: 2/27/21 Recent Posts
"but we digress. I specifically said "scientific method" & that does not reduce to science. My hope was/is for a "spiritual method". I think the Buddha largely contributed toward that method. But Buddhists deviated from his teachings and often went into speculative philosophizing. At least some of them.
my idea is that his method brings insights that are not "psychological" in nature.
the suffering addressed is not psychological suffering. Dukkha is "fundamental unsatisfactoriness".
one can be highly realized and still experience emotional storms with all their psychological dimensions.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj is an example that comes to mind here."
Maybe i am misinterpreting but i disagree with the assertion of deviation. The spiritual method is the noble eightfold path. The dharma. It's a core pillar in Buddhism.
Reply to last paragraph: This sounds like second hand knowledge. ideas will just be ideas. At some point, when you want to learn the truth from ignorance, you must start letting nature unfold as it is
my idea is that his method brings insights that are not "psychological" in nature.
the suffering addressed is not psychological suffering. Dukkha is "fundamental unsatisfactoriness".
one can be highly realized and still experience emotional storms with all their psychological dimensions.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj is an example that comes to mind here."
Maybe i am misinterpreting but i disagree with the assertion of deviation. The spiritual method is the noble eightfold path. The dharma. It's a core pillar in Buddhism.
Reply to last paragraph: This sounds like second hand knowledge. ideas will just be ideas. At some point, when you want to learn the truth from ignorance, you must start letting nature unfold as it is
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 11/10/24 3:30 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/10/24 3:30 PM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 219 Join Date: 8/20/18 Recent Posts
"Reply to last paragraph: This sounds like second hand knowledge. ideas will just be ideas. At some point, when you want to learn the truth from ignorance, you must start letting nature unfold as it is"
Could you pls elaborate/clarity what you mean?
When you say "ideas will just be ideas": my understanding is that's sort of a tautology. So, I am sure you mean something more profound, but what?
when you say "learn truth from ignorance" I am sorry to say that I haven't a clue what you're talking about. It may be some sort of first hand knowledge i am not privy to.
when you say "you must start letting nature unfold as it is", my understanding is that nature always unfolds as it is whether zI/you/anyone else let it ir not. But again I am sure this is a superficial understanding of what you meant based on your first hand knowledge.
Could you pls elaborate/clarity what you mean?
When you say "ideas will just be ideas": my understanding is that's sort of a tautology. So, I am sure you mean something more profound, but what?
when you say "learn truth from ignorance" I am sorry to say that I haven't a clue what you're talking about. It may be some sort of first hand knowledge i am not privy to.
when you say "you must start letting nature unfold as it is", my understanding is that nature always unfolds as it is whether zI/you/anyone else let it ir not. But again I am sure this is a superficial understanding of what you meant based on your first hand knowledge.
Truth Seeker, modified 1 Month ago at 11/10/24 4:23 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/10/24 4:22 PM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 105 Join Date: 2/27/21 Recent Posts
"When you say "ideas will just be ideas": my understanding is that's sort of a tautology. So, I am sure you mean something more profound, but what?
when you say "learn truth from ignorance" I am sorry to say that I haven't a clue what you're talking about. It may be some sort of first hand knowledge i am not privy to.
when you say "you must start letting nature unfold as it is", my understanding is that nature always unfolds as it is whether zI/you/anyone else let it ir not. But again I am sure this is a superficial understanding of what you meant based on your first hand knowledge."
"but what?": ideas are just one part of the whole truth. If you are willing, remind thy self of the unconjecturables the buddha mentioned here https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html ..... infinite connections
"when you say "learn truth from ignorance" I am sorry to say that I haven't a clue what you're talking about. It may be some sort of first hand knowledge i am not privy to.": to know what truly is, ones three areas of actions must be aligned with nature.. if you are willing, see the wholesome and unwholesome part within right view sutta
"when you say "you must start letting nature unfold as it is", my understanding is that nature always unfolds as it is whether zI/you/anyone else let it ir not. But again I am sure this is a superficial understanding of what you meant based on your first hand knowledge."": in regards to the first assertion here, tis true. However, that does not mean one, in turn, also knows that unfolding. The more taint there is, the more polluted the truth becomes.
when you say "learn truth from ignorance" I am sorry to say that I haven't a clue what you're talking about. It may be some sort of first hand knowledge i am not privy to.
when you say "you must start letting nature unfold as it is", my understanding is that nature always unfolds as it is whether zI/you/anyone else let it ir not. But again I am sure this is a superficial understanding of what you meant based on your first hand knowledge."
"but what?": ideas are just one part of the whole truth. If you are willing, remind thy self of the unconjecturables the buddha mentioned here https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html ..... infinite connections
"when you say "learn truth from ignorance" I am sorry to say that I haven't a clue what you're talking about. It may be some sort of first hand knowledge i am not privy to.": to know what truly is, ones three areas of actions must be aligned with nature.. if you are willing, see the wholesome and unwholesome part within right view sutta
"when you say "you must start letting nature unfold as it is", my understanding is that nature always unfolds as it is whether zI/you/anyone else let it ir not. But again I am sure this is a superficial understanding of what you meant based on your first hand knowledge."": in regards to the first assertion here, tis true. However, that does not mean one, in turn, also knows that unfolding. The more taint there is, the more polluted the truth becomes.
Bruno Loff, modified 1 Month ago at 11/11/24 7:27 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 11/11/24 7:27 AM
RE: How First Path changed your life?
Posts: 1104 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
I started meditating because I was bipolar. Roughly one year later, I got stream entry, and was never depressed the same way again, but I still had a more mild bipolarity. Also the high energy of first path was quite overwhelming. Eventually, five years later, some shift in perception and understanding caused me to never enter a euphoric phase, or the succeeding depressive phase, ever again. Now, ten years later, I find that I suffer less than anyone I know. But still not done somehow.
The reduction in suffering is the most tangible benefit of my meditation.
The reduction in suffering is the most tangible benefit of my meditation.