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Wait I am.. Wait I am... wait I am....

There's something there?

There's something there... there's something there... there's something there... (do it hear it? Try Saying it faster)

Common, the whole class now! Let's try to get everyone sync'ed up this time!

There's something there... there's something there... there's something there... doo doo doooo ... doo doo doooo ... doo doo doooo ... boo boo boooooooo .... *deep breath*

I hate to say it, but I have everything like 90%+ figured out

there's something there...

Sounds good. Definitely enjoy this honeymoon, whatever it turns out to be. Try not to indulge nor repress.

As Kenneth would say: congratulations, and now things are going to get even better, or worse, or stay the same.

For those at home curious, the reason why there is something there in "there is something there" (beyond the surface level literalize), is simply because it exists in the words themselves (there is something there. You see how it keeps coming back to itself? Like a snake eating it's own tail). That phrase it acts as what you might call a pilot wave, with the other layers of reality syncing up towards it. (It's similar to how metta or Koans work...). What happens when everything sinks up? Well, in this specific case, I believe we will find out the answer to "there is something there" (but the smart money is on avijjā). Although, come to think of it, is avijjā really a thing? Perhaps there isn't *something* there. Maybe that's is the something there... (they say the opposite of something is contained in the existence of the thing itself).

Words are not somehow separate things from reality, pointing to reality. Words arise from the correct causes and conditions. That's why there are the right words to describe things, and the wrong ways. And ways that "feel more right". Perhaps if you just find the right combo of words, conditions, and everything, something happens? Is there something there?

Anyways, there's something there. Do you get it? Maybe try saying "there's something there" a few times fast... it seems to work for me. I mean it's definitely the Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate's koan. But give it a shot too? (I'd love to read any fun stories that involves this new friend i met)

Give it a shot though, despite the name, I'm not actually trying to gatekeep anything! haha

Also, it might be worth saying, since somehow I seemingly drew the Koan short straw, this yogi reeks of enlightenment. Yuck!

Maybe a roshi might know, does anyone around here know a good one?

Okay I making great progress on this koan. Here's where we are at.

So when the universe gives you a koan, what do you do? You go see a roshi
Where do roshi's live? At monasteries. Good thing there is one that is a bus stop nearby. It literally drops you off at the door. It can't get easier.

But it get's better. I have a friend who I know could really use meditation, but its never clicked for him. He has had some interest in Zen, and I cant explain it but my hunch is the vibe of this place is a match. It is in an old luthern church, and it feels old and european but somehow it works? I can't put my finger on it, but something's there.

So it's important I bring him there. But I need to talk to a roshi. Now Roshi's are weird fucking people, I've read the books (all of those zen people are a bit nuts if you ask me...), so I can't ask them directly. So here's the plan, I'm going to tom sawyer a monk into helping me, by asking them to help me with my little dance. It's very important I explain to them that its a supreme matter of life and death. I'll probably have to repeat it a few times, but there is something there. (I am also an artist, so maybe I draw them a circle so they let me in)

Now, it's meeting the roshi where I'm drawing a bit of a blank right now. My current best question is that I ask him "so you always hear the phrase that dog's don't know what they when the finally catch the car. I asked my roommmate and he said they get in and drive", and then see what the roshi says (there's something there, but i cant put my finger on it).

But as I was typing this out, the answer occurred to me. What I can do is draw my little circle, go up to the monk and ask them "Can you please help me with a favor? I have an urgent matter of life and death. Please give this gift to the Roshi and ask him to speak with me".

Do you see it? The answer was in the question itself. There's something there....

You know, this whole thing reminds me of Burning Man. The first year I ever went, I was going with a camp called Bogus Journey. Our idea was to help new people get integrated into the playa by making up fake quests for them, where doing the quest was what get's them into the Burn. I'm only realizing to know how brilliant it was, but it was lost on me and placement at the time (although I do have a buddy from that camp who is in placement now. So that could be a doable thing, if anyone is looking to start a camp )

Anyways, I have to go soon and deal with some long term planning stuff for my dad. That actually is a supreme matter of life and death.

Here's some art that I made way back when. I kinda like it. It's turtles all the way down...

Anyways anyways, there's something there. (Do you see it?? This one is really funny...)

It's kinda weird. I already know the answer. There is nothing there. The answer is contained in the question. But there is something there. And I've been told to solve a koan, one must treat it like a lived experience. You know who told me that? Daniel Ingram!! Just the other day on that other forum! Smart guy that guy .... he get's it.

But yeah. It's tricky business this Zen stuff. I reached out to this girl I fell madly in love with at Burning Man. We had a great conversation about "finding the exact right words to describe reality", and I will admit I did not get it at the time. But now I do? So perhaps there is something there??? (Aww hell I know there is)

Something and nothing is there?

Okay it's starting to come together beautifully.

There is something there, there's also nothing there, somehow it's perfect. And it's going to moment of "well duh! there it is"

I'll I got to do down is just vibe and wait for things to sync. But also I just need to pour the rest of myself into plato's rave (pour until there is nothing left), and who knows - maybe when the hole machine is running then things will sync up and poof, lights out? (poof, lights out has a nice ring to it. Maybe that will get mantraize in due time... There's something there! Or maybe it's nothing. Who knows. One way to find out! Straight ahead.....)

Can someone tell me where to look for my green paint, though? I think it's around here somewhere. Clearly it's *here* somewhere. Or maybe not.

Okay. So result of experiment 1: "there's something there" works but is the zooomist shit, that lead me to a holy shit J2 that was total fireworks and knocked me off guard. It took me a minute to realize what was going on, but after a bit of going crazy my mind just thought "I don't want to be doing this. Why am I doing this? I know how to calm down, I've done it a million times", and then poof my mind instantly went to a nice, medium j4 and that was so nice. Okay this is much more confusing than I thought. It's okay though. This is what training is for. I know metta is always a good practice, slow noting seems like a good choice to sync back up with thing, do-nothing is good to. Do nothing is always another good option. I got proven tools. We can do this. There's something there. Deep breath

Confusing and weird, but it's okay. Deep breath. 

Man you should probably go for a swim like in the ocean or a lake or something. 

Yeah I just went and showered and it was nice. I'm going to take a break for a bit and slow down for a bit. My mind keeps getting these spurts of energy and its driving me crazy. Sorry everyone, and I appreciate the support. 

Yo, like... Big body of water. I highly recommend. I really never appreciated how profound it can be until I was pathing out. Might be cold where you're at though so options might be limited. Hot here, ocean is nice but... Bull sharks... 

Also a big hike, somewhere with some big trees and some wide open vistas. 

There's a sort of spacious panorama that one can appreciate now that for whatever reason isn't as obvious before path. 

After first, through second, I spent almost everyday in the countryside in this coastal inlet, outside the fishing village I grew up in. 

You could sit on this hill and there was just this wide open expanse, jagged rocky hills rolling into the most pristine clear water, sea birds and twisted coastal trees, the smell of salty rocks and seagrass. 

​​​​​​​Man, some of the greatest moments of my life just sitting there. All with the new found realization that this is possible, this is real. No matter all the talk and speculation and armchair debate... The path is real and you're on it. Isn't that fantastic. 

This is during the summer and the tides out but you get the picture

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This is lovely advice, and as such there is love in it (weird how saying love creates love no? There's something there). I am going to do it, simply because you told me so, and when I do it, I will send my love to you BB.

Sorry again for going a bit crazy. Enlightenment broke my brain (just like the Zen people said). It became this weird dancing fugue where things started to make too much sense, then was so confusing, and it was so magic and the energy was getting so high, it all seemed so perfect but it seemed like I was going crazy. It didn't all make sense until I realized, it doesn't all have to, and that's okay.

BB, here is a thank you gift back from me. I've always liked you. Can I help you get it? That seems to be part of my purpose (hey? I have a purpose? There's something there....). What I think I need to say is simply this. I remember somewhere Shargrol gave great advice - really sometimes to finally become enlightened, you have to find an idiot and wonder "what the hell does this guy have that i dont?". He had it a bit backwards though, because in your case, I think the idiot came up and found you. It's okay, Shargrol had it a bit backwards, but that's okay. I realized recently all the maps aren't the territory, they are all partially true and a bit out of sync with the actual order of things.

BB, I always want to rehighlight this. It makes a lot of sense to me, can you maybe see what I'm going for now?? (It's staring you in the face. You're already awake. It's okay. It's just this)
Alright, I need a bit of a vacation for right now.

Let's review though a little bit.

The universe told me something's there.
You can feel it when you say something's there. You can't feel it when you say "nothing is there", because nothing is there. Huh there is both something and nothing. It's like a snake eating it's own tail, or turtles all the way down (hehe).

But guys, enlightenment isn't a thing! It doesn't have properties. There is no essential way it is!!! What did the crazy snake guy with his non-sense 4-logic lemma say? There is something there.

To get to the end of samasara, you just keep going until you get to the end. That's it. There's nothing to it. The answer is right there. It's contained in the question. Like Daniel said just the other day, koan's are lived experiences. My koan is "something's there", so there's my answer. Gotta live it though.

Here's some more advice.
Develop unshakable faith in the Buddha (to become enlightened you need this), it's his path that minimizes suffering. His path is constantly changing, and it's always going to be a different thing. Just study, and do your best as person. Help others. There's nothing to do, but to do it. It's staring you in the face. You were awake the whole time.

I still have some kamma to burn. But that's okay. It's going to happen all by itself, cause no-self, remember?

There's only one more log entry left here, keep following the logs until you get to the end.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/32604166

Much love to all my travelers, I'm rooting for you and will appear and disappear, but I'll do my best to help all y'all. It's bodhisattva time.

Thank you for the wise words, my gratitude, after all, where could a mirage begin or end?

I'm not sure if it is my place to say, but this was extremely hard to follow. 

​​​​​​​Welcome Patrick !!

​​​​​​​Some of the rewiring that can occur can be quite intense and expressed idiosyncratically might make little sense, integration takes time. 

For you and me both Patrick! ;)

This whole meditation business is a lot wilder than is advertised. That's for sure. That's a big reason I ended up on this side of the internet. 

Geoffrey you reckon you could put this in an IMS brochure ? 

I actually am building a great Dhamma that I think will help a lot of people (it helped me a good deal). It's called Plato's Rave. Think of it like a lamp that projects cool fractal patterns on the wall that are constantly changing via the spinning lamp shades. Now pick a gearing ratio that has a massively weird chaotic cycle, but that line up once in a blue moon (when the right causes and conditions are in place...) but eventually the lamp shades sync up and poof, lights out!

But you know symbolism aside, the real point of Plato's rave is to experience it. 

I'm already getting my friends involved  

I guess I'll say some words of caution...

For strong A&P and SE that have a excess energy side (aka Daniel's "like giving the keys of a sports car to a 16 year old) -- it's fine to enjoy the energy but I would almost universally say the highs eventually become lows, so better to lean towards the calm and expansive side of things, letting energy off gas, not making big plans, etc.

It's also important to hold in mind that every path event could just be an A&P event, just to keep a certain degree of modesty and humility. Time will tell, of course, so no need to plant a flag and stake a claim. If anything, think of it as good practice for "the 12th path" phenominon that happens in the domain of third path when you are hit by many profound jumps in insight/sensitivity and each one feels like enlightenment but there is obviously more to uncover. If you can, it's usually better to underestimate progress in the moment and let everything resettle into whatever the new condition is.

I find that the basics of the three poisons --- greed, aversion, and indifference (ignorance/delusion) --- are always good measuring sticks to pull out when things get wild. Am I clinging to or craving something/nothing as I, me, or mine? Am I denying or resisting something as I, me, or mine? Am I ignoring or discounting something as not even relevant to I, me, or mine?  Just checking in on greed, aversion, and indifference can help give quick perspective on where our mind is at. 

Or just clinging and resisting, if two is easier than three.

I also found that the basics of the six realms is other way to get perspective on our psychology in the moment:

hell beings see everything as “disrespect” and feel angry so they act to oppose things
hungry ghosts see everything as “discomfort” and feel greedy so they act to take pleasure/relief
animals are see everything as “overwhelming” so the they feel “burdened” so they act “to endure/conform”
humans see everything as “lacking” [frustrated enjoyment] and feel “unhappy” and act through “chasing desire” or spiritually “seeking”
powerful gods see everything as “inadequate” and feel “jealous or ambitious” so they act to “achieve or compete”
heavenly gods – think they are “superior” and feel “pride” so they act to “isolate and maintain” their wealth/status

It is very helpful to know this model and use it as needed along the path. It is very easy to reside in the higher realms when things are going good and the lower realms when things are going bad. The human realm is the realm of desire and desire here can also be unchecked spiritual desire.

This isn't a shaming kind of post from me, but rather some hard earned lesson that applied to me -- so feel free to consider it worth what you paid for it!

Oh yeah, there's a lot I understand, and a lot I don't and that's fine. Things will continue to fall in sync and out of sync, and they will continue to sync up on various levels they aren't right now. But labels are passe these days.

But you know, this thing about the 3 trainings, 4 brahma viharas, and the 10 parami - well there's something there. It was staring me in the face the whole time.

Oh and let's not forget DO

Geoffrey, I’ve been reading your posts for some time with great interest. Thank you for sharing them!

Toward the end of your last log, you mentioned having used 5-MEO, which, as I understand it, is a very powerful psychedelic. It seems that you’ve progressed very quickly in your journey since then. It also sounds like you’ve recently reached an entirely new level of energy.

I’m genuinely curious. How do you feel that 5-MEO has affected your practice, as well as your most recent experiences and insights?
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Personally, I don’t plan to try tripping. If I were to use illegal substances and got caught, I’d risk losing my professional license and business. Too big a risk. But I’m very interested to hear your perspective on this.

The first monk I ever met actually explained this to me very well - a lot of people have a lot of different ideas of what spirituality means, but the definition that he gave was that spirituality is anything that effects your internal world (so meditating, drugs, making art, connecting with people, learning more, therapy, etc). So while drugs played a role on my path, they definitely aren't for everyone, and it's fine if you don't jam with it. An analogy I might compare it to is sexuality, which really didn't play an important role for me (I was just never that into it), but I have friends into and its a super powerful thing! (Like it deals with connecting to others, how we see ourselves, our desires, our aversions, our traumas, etc etc). And there are some people that want to go deep into it, and my friends that have had the best luck with that end up being very responsible about it (learning about consent, finding community, getting tested when appropriate, etc).

Just find the things that really seem to work for you and to see where they go (but don't forget to meditate!).

For my friends out there more a bit interested in drugs, harm reduction practices are your friend. It's okay to have fun here and there, but taking care of yourself and not overdoing anything is very important. Just like going too hard and too fast in meditation can cause serious problems, even more so with drugs, so be careful. Dance safe has a lot of good resources (try going through their volunteering training), so does psychonautwiki, and I've heard cheetah house is a good resource for folks, but I've never tried them myself.

Oh, and I don't think we've ever chatted Isthmus. It's nice to meet you!

Thank you, G! It's an interesting way to define spirituality. I've thought about it quite simply: spirituality involves questions about what this thing called "life" or "reality" is all about. Spirituality ends when questions turn into answers. At the same time, spirituality tends to transform into religions and beliefs.
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You mentioned that psychedelics played a role in your path. I'm still curious :-) Could you elaborate on this a bit more? How did the MEO-5 trips affect your subsequent practices? What changed? Do you feel that you could have progressed on your journey as quickly without the trips? If you felt that the trips opened something significant, what was it?

My intention is not to criticize or judge the use of psychedelics. I also have several friends who trip from time to time. One of them is a hardcore meditator and has done a couple of MEO trips, but to my knowledge, he hasn't hit the SE.

Hey Geoffrey! How's it goin? I was absent from the forum for a bit but I checked out your past log after seeing this thread. Sounds like you might have hit stream entry? If so, congrats I'm curious how you're doin, how things are feeling, etc... 

I think Shargrol's post hit on a lot of excellent points so I won't re-hash them out, but seeing this thread makes me reflect on my own stream entry experience a bit. The first time "getting it", the fun mystical empowerment, at times the near-manic type behavior Granted, I was a lot younger and immature which definitely factored into how everything played out. (Not that I'm calling you immature or anything like that!) 

I was definitely riding a spiritual high after stream entry, feeling like I just got a deep mystical truth that superceeded everything else. There was a lot to be enjoyed (easy access to the jhanas, magickal experiences, etc...). I feel like I was a bit of a burden or at least annoyance on all of my friends at college. Rambling about mystical truths, kind of smug, a sense of being above-it-all, feeling like I was ahead of others in development in some spiritual way. 

In retrospect, I wish I would have reeled it in just a tad more It was definitely the case that I had a significant a-ha moment that changed my life for the better. But I also regret how I sort of neglected some of my normal life-arc development. As great as stream entry was, I wish I would have focused a bit more on the simple life aspects like cultivating friendships, learning to be more honest with myself, learning to be more vulnerable, learning to work through my life experiences in a non-spiritual way. Eventually my sky-high confidence and spiritual surfing above it all kind of chilled out, and I was left to confront a lot of the emotional and real-life development that I had hopped over while zipping by on my spiritual high-horse  

After a few years went by, it was interesting to reflect on what was actually changed as a result of stream entry, after the glorious fanfare and newfound power levels had subsided back to baseline.

Again I'm definitely not trying to accuse you of anything, I know I don't know you and we haven't talked much, just recounting what my own experience was like. Best wishes and looking forward to seeing how you're doin!  

Thank you for your kind words! Shargrol's advice was/is very wise, and I took it and decided to let things just calm down, solidify back, and let the magic run itself out a bit. I was getting a bit crazy and mystical, and it was clear to everyone, including myself. Now I'm a lot more chill, grounded, and about to watch the new Penguin episode in my basement

So it definitely was an experience. I'm not sure if I'd say it's stream entry, not because that's not a good candidate in terms of how people think about things on here, but because that experience really did shatter any idea of a spiritual model as "true". Like since reality is this constant ebb and flow between "patterns and chaos"/"something and nothing" on all these different levels, then the idea of a model lives purely in the "something, patterns, legibility" side of things (but that ignores the other side of things that can't be written down in a book!). There is a phrase one of my friends taught me, "no model is correct, but some models are useful".

For example, right now the idea of spiritual quest seems preposterous to me, because spirituality is just life (although, what is life without a bogus journey or two? Nothing I guess... haha). There is another thread going around about Delson's new podcast (and here is the thread), and I'll say it really feels like I have landed somewhere similar to him in terms about let's call it "the philosophy and function of spirituality". Everything is constantly changing, so all paths are unique, all views of reality are unique (and so they are kinda "personalized" in a way). This seems a lot closer to how I think about it now. Everything is all about syncing up, vibing, and thriving (fruition is one of those shifts where something "syncs up" to itself in a deep way). Sometimes you get solidification of these types of things (religions, practices, etc).

All that being said, a bunch of mystical things did happen. It seems that a lot of my "path" was revealed (a lot about how I want to sync up with reality, how I should be operating, and some things that resonate deeply with me that I can do to help others thrive in their lives). I got a much better understanding of DO, the emptiness of all things, the interdependent nature of reality, and the working of reality. So far a deep sense of freedom and equanimity. So I am walking away from the whole thing with a worldview inseparable with Buddhism (but I guess you could say that is because I have had a large set of experiences that seem to deeply and mystically show the same stuff) - although it's definitely a more Western/post-moden/mathematical/machine kind of Buddhism (just cause that's how I was raised).

But really, when all things said and done - there's nothing to do, but to do it!

Funny enough, all the things the mystical stuff was trying to tell me were pretty mundane. My main takeaways are that I resonate deeply with going around helping people thrive and connect with life. That means helping my friends, strangers, helping heal my family, etc. Obviously because I have a unique set of experiences, talent, capabilities, and understanding that's going to be done uniquely. But I just need to do my best, keep going, help others, and keep cultivating sila, samahdi, and panna.

Oh son of a bitch there something there....


More to go.

Wait when people talk about "resolving old karma" and not accumulating new karma, they pretty much just mean resolving all of life's threads, no? (Resolving *your* karma they say, too. Fucking christ. The I AM is referring to reality. This is Geoffrey's reality, after all......)

Like it's all starting to make sense how it has to work...

This spirituality business is insane. Im starting to like it!

Just my understanding of something 

Karma or birth in a Buddhist sense 

In my way of understanding things 

Has a lot to do with openness vs contraction. The degree to which one is identified with and thus contracting around, the self experience is also the degree to which one is lost in rebirth or creating karma. (Forgive me, let's just forget about all other conversations, this is a fresh new topic haha) So when we talk about attainments, you'll notice the language in the pali has to do with birth, numbers of rebirths etc, and that an arhat "no longer creates karma" "is no longer reborn" 

These rather esoteric phrases have a direct correlation to the lived day to day experience of dukkha. As one develops in meditation our chronic contracting into the mess of dukkha occurs less and less and thus less karma is created. 

Just off the cuff this is my vague attempt to communicate how I understand it. 

One is born into a worldview. Worldview is the entire self structure and how it builds up an understanding of a world to reference itself in relation to. This is the sort of self referential narcissistic delusion. 

​​​​​​​As we progress as meditators we tend to become more loose with our worldviews, obviously we see them as impermanent and so on but we often still tend towards creating worldviews, we may just create more "liberated" ones. Until one kind of gets over a lot of that and can reside in more post-ontological modes of being where things don't necessarily need worldviews but one can recognize using and operating within worldviews is a part of life. We might say an arhat can do so without creating karma or being lost in birth into that worldview. 

​​​​​​​Resolving karma as an activity is a moral thing but often that karma has its roots in the self contraction, how we recoil from pain and ultimate freedom from the recoil, not the pain, is an insight thing. 

​​​​​​​This may also provide another useful way to reframe the paths outside of dogmatic ten fetter or saintly activity stuff. Which you gotta believe me I didn't set out to do it just happened by accident. 

Well, I think we are both seeing the puzzle pieces from two different angles. The openness vs contractedness makes a lot of sense, because what usually happens when you're in a contracted mode of being and interacting with another person is that you're a dick to that person, and that memory haunts you. And that memory haunting you, makes it hard to meditate, because you have bad karma. This is kinda a "stuff" model of thinking, for sure.

Karma is the law of cause and effect. But how can there be cause and effect with no time, BB?

It says here you made that response 39 minutes ago.

No matter how enlightened I am if I don't show up to work I won't get paid. If I do show up to work and log my timesheet only to hear my client say "there's no time" they'll get a pretty swift lesson about cause and effect to the side of the head. 

​​​​​​​When one thoroughly encounters the emptiness of time it may reduce karma, it may reduce the mess of cause and effect... But the clock is still ticking, death is still coming, you're going to hear from my imaginary lawyers if you don't pay the damn invoice. 

With Buddhist meditation we're dealing with how the self fabricates ideas about and identifies with aspects of experience. The fabrications may be illusory but the world is very real no matter how illusory it may seem. 

I'm not making an ontological argument about an objective 3d universe. I'm making a common sense argument like if I cut myself I will bleed. 

​​​​​​​If there's no time how can someone bleed?

In one place it says one thing, and in another place it says another thing?

I keep being like "huh he is off in his understanding, let me help Bahiya understand it", and somehow I'm the one getting gored by the bull here? XD

Oh yeah it would have to, everything is always changing...

So there's no time and everything's changing ?

Ooooooooo it neither exists nor not exists

Nice, yeah, that feels good. I like that. I think you have improved my understanding after all. 

​​​​​​​Thank you. 

Invoice paid !! Horns retracted, somebody call off the lawyers

Mind blown, confetti streamers twirl veluptously, particles of dust scattered by the shockwave dissipate before gathering rapidly in gleaming streams of high fidelity photo radiation, a binary refrain, ave maria in ear splitting static, wobbling for a moment and gone, all of it gone, gone gone beyond gone 

Just as another kind of possible preview of things to come, file this away for things to come at whatever point it does... 

Sometimes on the road to second (or when/wherever), the nanas are fairly bizzarre vipassina-jhanas where there is a lot of semi-formless jhana with the distilled emotionality of the nana. This can be very disconcerting because the "thing" causing the emotion isn't clear, and so it isn't clear what you need to "work on", yet you definitely have the experiential tone of three characteristics, dissolution, fear, misery, disgust, desire for deliverance. It can feel simultaniously very wrong and yet somehow right. Very primal and edgy yet very spiritual. This can turn into the "I'm so spiritual that I'm a basket case" syndrome. 

There can also be more localization of kundalini type stuff. The chakras start making more sense as emotional body centers. This can be just physical phenominon (oh how I long for spell checker, okay it's with an e phenomenon), there can be mental visuals, and it can be very amorphous especially combined with formless jhana mindstates. This can turn into the "I'm developing a whole metaphysics about the true nature of the human body" syndrome.

And the insights into DO and karma can get so precise that we have a whole new operational/real-time and this can quickly become "if I figure out how DO and karma works I'll be able to cut through and solve all my problems" syndrome.

The tricky thing about noting and nanas in the road to second is just like in the road to first path, you have to NOTE all these thoughts and strategies and manipulations and gaming related to your practice. It always comes down to the basics: note the sensations, emotions, urges, and thoughts (including beliefs) that arise and try to stay at the _experiential_ level during practice sessions. Thinking about practice when practicing is the self's little security blanket that it doesn't want to let go of.  Of course it's normal for this kind of thinking to arise, but try not to indulge, try to leave the thoughts _about_ experience to mostly after the practice session.

The pure experiential experience of the road to second path can be kinda grossly slippery, like never quite having traction. But that "traction" feeling is what the ego/self wants, not necessarily what you need. Who knows, you might wind up liking the slipperyness style of living? (But it does make it hard the "I" to "have" it, which is its downside I guess --  "I" guess, haha). 

A funny way to say it is second path is the very boring act of going through the nanas again but as slippery somewhat formless jhanas. Doing it all again with the training wheels off -- that's a really funny way to say it!

Again, no shaming intended here and I'm definitely not saying this is going to happen no matter what. As you can imagine, a lot of this is my own baggage, but maybe there are some of my mistakes that others can learn from. 

Best wishes!

You can pick up some complexes post 1st that can be a real #$@* to deal with on the way to third. When you're developing this stuff it's all bliss and light and good vibes but later down the line it's seen to be just more chronic attachment. 

​​​​​​​One must be careful with the mind. One can potentially develop some really debilitating neurosis. I did and unravelling it sucked. 

I was talking about contraction earlier on. The tricky thing to grok at this point is that... One can contract around something that feels incredible. Greed is very very sneaky
​​​​

You know, I think I finally figured out this whole Roshi business. Ever since my weird shit happening the other day, my roommates dog has been acting strange. I keep wondering when I look at him, is there something there? I know there is. But I don't exactly know what it is. He is my roommates dog, but I feel like recently my roommmate, me, and him have all been learning how to take better care of each other. The dog has been learning how to play fetch better, been running around more, been more playful, will come cuddle, etc. It seems like he is shedding his robotic, formulaic rhythm to really find his dog-nature.

So now I'm wondering, does my dog have buddha nature? This is why I need to go to the monastery, to ask a roshi this question.

But the real reason is that I need to take my friend there so he can start his zen journey too.

But but the other reason I need to go is that there's this thing on my mind that's been killing me. My dad is dying, and I need to help, but I don't know how. I mean, I know I need to grieve, but I need to help him, and I don't know how. It's a supreme mater of life and death, and it's been killing me lately.

The worst part is I already know the answer to my questions, but I need to go talk to this Roshi....

Oh we are constantly becoming. We can't avoid it. It's all part of the process. Life and death. The answer was right there.

It's going to be okay. One of my friends is in town, and he is going to come by and help me grieve. I realized today he is my Roshi, and I can show him my little blog post from before with the koans, and he is coming here later, and I just need some space right now.

I'm going to have to explain to him a lot of this enlightenment business though, I'm going to sound a bit crazy though. Or maybe zen. Perhaps both? Neither? I'm starting to think there isn't much of a difference here.

I get to give him an award that I made for him after he is done reading this. It's an award for figuring it out (he has it basically figured out). I've been working on giving out these fake awards for a minute as a fun art project, and this is the completion of that project. The funny thing is there isn't going to be an award, there is nothing to it, this is it. It's one of the best gifts I've made, it really is perfect. (But now he gets to take my friend to the monastery, which is rather fitting, because that's where Roshis go! A bogus journey you might call it...)

Sorry to hear that man. 

Did I miss this thread???!  

Best wishes Roshi-boy!  

Thank you for your kind words. My friend/new found roshi did come today, and we had a long chat about life and death. He had some good wisdom for me. I was very stressed about trying to solve my dad's dead, getting all the pieces together so he could just sign all the things and be done (which involves talking to a bunch of family members not on good terms and everyone was getting stressed), but the exchange went something like

Me: "Well, the best way to undo the Gordon Knot is to cut right through it"
Him: "No, no, no. The way you cut a Gordon Knot is to go above it, you go directly to the source and you leave the knot alone"

And it's a good point. I was trying to fix a problem, the problem of my family, my dad's dying, etc. But I was making it all into a problem, by trying to force myself into and solve it (I realize I have been paternal lately, without realizing it, just trying in a pushy way to help others. I know everyone on here was telling me this, and I thought I was listening it, but I wasn't and I apologize). So the new plan for my visit in December is just to spend X-mas with him. As a kid he used to take us to blockbusters and we'd rent movies and get slurpees, so I think something alone those lines would be good. He was always a big fan of getting us strange toys, like magic tricks and angel snot, so I think Im going to try and wrangle him up some fun toys. And we can chat and I can ask him if there's anything I can do for him then I can do it, if he doesn't want it then I won't.

We also spent a good chunk of time in a graveyard, just talking about life, death, making jokes, etc. It was beautiful. It was a nice day, probably one of the last warm ones of fall, and the weather was nice, and my mind was spacious and serene, and everything was peaceful.

So the lesson is dying sucks for real, but is kinda beautiful. If you go looking for problems, you will find them by making them.

Geoffrey I think that's a very good plan. Sometimes the best fix is to not try to fix anything. Particularly with family, it can be healing to just be with them. A very wise plan indeed. 

Oh yeah I just woke up feeling so strange. Visually things had this dissociative electric quality, my body was tingling (well reality was tingling), and things were noticeably (but not too intensely) spooky and strange. I was definitely confused until I thought of this. This explains the weird electric baths (which has been making my perineum(???) twitch/spasm) I've been getting lately just watching movies and stuff (oh and the weirdly deep and expansive tranquility and openness at the graveyard). Yeah these jhanas are different....

You know, I never was a big fan of the book right concentration, but I spent a good chunk of time at Bhavana, and spent a lot of time with Bhante G, and a lot of his teachings are starting to deeply resonate with me. Shargrol, I know you're a fan of "the path of serenity and insight", and now maybe seems like the time?

Sorry to hear about your Dad. Glad you are getting some good advice.

Just since this is so fresh in my experience since we just went through >two< adult parent deaths this >month<, one that was the end of a multi-year decline and one that was a sudden lethal stroke...

The family dynamic is in some ways as hard as the deaths themselves. Everyone is very sensitive and everyone wants to solve the problem their way, so lots of opportunity for conflict. I can't tell you how many times I said "I really don't know what the answer here is, but right now I'm thinking..." or  "Right now I'm feeling X emotion or Y concern." I really tried to own my thoughts and feelings as my own and communicate them that way too. People really respond negatively if you are percieved as forcing your ideas/solutions, or putting your emotional or intellectual worries on them.

And sometimes people can't help but put their trauma on you. But you don't need to take it or push it away. Just letting them say/act the way they will -- they are beyond your control -- and allow it to disperse naturally. You don't have to do anything to fix an experience that has already happened. The best thing you can do is create a safe space of sorts. If you do need to create a healthy boundary, own it as >your< need "I'm sorry, i'm overwhelmed, I feel I need to..." and give them the chance to respond before breaking off contact in the situation. You might need to walk away or maybe they are willing to work with you on whatever the situation is, don't be quick to assume one or the other. 

I was also very happy how often someone stepped in as a leader or do-er in different situations. You need to let other people be involved and not assume it's all on you.

I think some of that sounded preachy, ultimately I have no idea what's right for you. Best wishes for your dad and you  and your family!!


For the jhana stuff, it sounds like things are melting/moving for you (classic!) so I suspect all you need to do is sit and allow yourself to soak in what arises. At this point I would probably suggest a go with the flow approach during sitting itself, but it can be very helpful to understand the basic ideas of jhana practice, so that book is probably good reading material at the time. For example, knowing the metaphor of dung soap(!) and how to enjoy and promote dwelling in jhana can be a good thing. But no need to force your experience to align with those particular words on the page --- honor your experience and honor how it develops over time. 

Oh shit I'm sorry to hear that. If there is anything I can do to help you, then just let me know! It's the least I could do with everything you've done for me. And of course I'm wishing you nothing but happiness, love, and freedom from suffering. I'm going to make you an art piece today, I think you'll like it

Yeah, I think a good way to view it is as a balance between push and pull, giving and taking. Sometimes, it is important for us to give to help others, sometimes it is important to ask for help (and allow others a chance to give), and sometimes it is important to just let things be. (Like scroll up a few days ago and look at me and BB talk about karma. It was a good back and forth).

After my big day at the graveyard yesterday, me and my roshi sat and were watching fiddler on the roof. During that movie, my mom called me, and she immediately started asking me 1. how i was going to fix everything with my dad 2. basic travel tips for a country I've never been to. I started to immediately shut down, and my roshi who was watching the movie and playing a game on a tablet just took the phone away from and started to talk to my mom (he had recently been to that country), and they really connected easily in a way that's always been hard for me. I was astonished when that happened, and I asked him how he did that, and he said it was easy in part because it wasn't his mom, so she didnt push his buttons. Then he mentioned that his mom kinda does push his buttons, and I was a bit shocked because I love his mom and dad and could hang out with them for days. So we ended up talking about his family dynamic and mine - how even though I love his mom, dad, and GF, and I get along swimmingly with all of them, they dont get along well within themselves. He made two interesting observations about stuff on my end, 1. my mom was asking for basic shit she could have just googled (so it's kinda a self-infantilization), 2. she seemed lonely.

It was a good convo, because it made me realize I hadn't fully invented the "i need to save my dad from death" problem from nothing, in a lot of ways that problem grew from tons of family members all dumping their shit on me endlessly. He also texted me earlier today and said "yeah the way ive figured out this thing with my mom is i just call her every 1-2 weeks when i have some other task I can chat through and we just talk".

This one’s for you Shargrol! Well, it’s for everyone, but mostly for you!

I think it nails the vibe of 2nd path pretty well so far, don’t you think?

I do hope you and your family are doing okay.

I really like "I really don't know what the answer here is, but right now I'm thinking...", and I’m going to steal it from you. It seems to me that one dynamic at play is I tend to be fairly smart/capable, and fairly chill, so I’m on the best terms with the most family members and as such people tend to try to dump all their shit on me. And while it’s not a bad thing to help, I’m not here to die on the cross for all of humanity’s sins. The Simpsons already did that one (thank Jesus…).

It occurred to me. Some of my best friends “get it” in deep ways, but I’m realizing they “get it” in the mundane ways (how to find jobs that click, fun hobbies, building community, going on adventures, talking to your parents - ie how to thrive in life in a mundane way), and a lot of the people on here “get it” in the supramundane sense. My hunch is that by being open and authentic about my experiences, and using discernment when I can, I can help bridge the gaps. (After all, I was put here to learn from you and you were put here to learn from me).

It also seems to me that mindfulness can really help connecting with others. When you find yourself confused with what they are saying you can say “I’m sorry, I’m a bit confused at X, could we back up a little bit and talk about that?”. Or when you see someone is excited about something, and you see something that seems interesting/mysterious, you can say “oh wow X seems cool. Could you tell me a bit more about that??” (People love this one)

I think a good story for me to reflect on is that of Aang, the last airbender. He was a goofy kid who just wanted to have fun, and he found himself in a messy situation with lots of responsibilities thrusted on him with no clear way of figuring it out. And he was tasked with bringing balance between the spiritual world and the mundane. It’s a big job! He’s not a bad role model…

Balance between things is seeming very important. Push and pull, spiritual and mundane, expansion and contraction, etc.

Here is the poem that accompanies that piece.

Spirituality is neither Supra
Nor is it mundane
Nor is it either (Supra or mundane)
Nor is it both (Supra or mundane)

Once, I met a teacher who told me in a 1-1, "right now you are at a point where you are trying to cram the dharma into your life, soon you will reach a point where you are trying to cram your life into the dharma".

Later, after the retreat when we got to chatting, and I was still nervous about going to the monastery, and had just had a recent cancer scare, I asked him "So is becoming an arhat the thing I should focus my life on?"

And he replied, "Yeah sure, there's really nothing else to do".

Excellent. I love that.

Also, hope everything is going well for you brother. You have been onn my mind. Lots of love

I've been really enjoying getting to know you a bit better recently, our back and fourths, and all the help you've been giving me!

Much love

I'm watching these videos on urban designer give a set of interviews, and he talks about urban design, AI + transportation, city growth, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0pT04XALkM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldtUrIco_rk

And I realize that for the first time in years, I feel like existentially hopeful for the future. He paints a picture of cities that are half cities, half plants/jungles/forest. With a network of tunnels underneath with self train cars that go from point A->B (like combine the boring company with tesla ai), and basically operate as a distributed, individuated magic train underneath.

Could you imagine living in a jungle/city with a magic train? Where the streets are all safe, with people, diverse, and rent isn't an issue? The streets are also full of people and wonderful things? Can't you just imagine the aliveness of the whole thing?

The thing is shit like this is possible. We got rid of polio. We invented computers and internet. A guy won a noble prize for inventing GMOs and saving over a billion people's lives. Go read the book "the dream machine" if you want to get inspired! [or even better, go read “human-computer symbiosis”, realize it was written in 1970, and ask yourself, could he see the future?]

What I think I'm realizing, is mundane-spirtuality is bringing magic to the real world. The mundane-arhants are like your Euler's, Da Vinci's, Newtons, Jobs, Picasso's, etc. They create things that are magical (like magic trains) - and they eliminate suffering.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

Salvation is neither Supra
Nor is it mundane
Nor is it either (Supra or mundane)
Nor is it both (Supra or mundane)

Who's ready for a truly western style dharma?

Me!  

You can even imagine, as the supra gets cultivated in the mundane the mundane creates the conditions for the supra to thrive

This is it. The answer was right there in front of our faces. We just had to look, where we already were!

The answer to the end of suffering is contained in the problem of suffering.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Woo !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah !!!!!!!!!!!!

​​​​​​​

Come gather 'round, people, wherever you roam
And admit that the waters around you have grown
And accept it that soon you'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth saving
And you better start swimmin' or you'll sink like a stone
For the times, they are a-changin'

Hey, Mr. Tambourine Man, play a song for me
I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to
Hey, Mr. Tambourine Man, play a song for me
In the jingle jangle mornin' I'll come followin' you
Take me on a trip upon your magic swirlin' ship
My senses have been stripped
My hands can't feel to grip
My toes too numb to step
Wait only for my boot heels to be wandering

My money comes and goes
My money comes and goes
My money comes and goes
And rolls and flows and rolls and flows
Through the holes in the pockets in my clothes

Well, I'm walkin' down the line
I'm walkin' down the line
And I'm walkin' down the line
My feet'll be a-flyin'To tell about my troubled mind

I see the morning light
I see the morning light
Well, it's not because I'm an early riser
I didn't go to sleep last night

Well, I'm walkin' down the line
I'm walkin' down the line
And I'm walkin' down the line
My feet'll be a-flyin'
​​​​​​​To tell about my troubled mind
​​​​​​​

Another one of my landmark teachers taught me "take care of the dhamma, and the dhamma will take care of you"

(for what it's worth, all these quotes came from my IMS teachers...)

My friend was telling me an interesting story the other day of the history of buddhism and money.

At first, the Buddha was very anti-money (monks shouldn't be able to handle it). But back then, it was a time when most people did subsistence farming, and so money wasn't a big thing.

When Mayhana came around, the merchant class in India was much more established, and so rather than wanting to give alms in terms of food/robes/shelter (like a subsistence farmer would), they wanted to give money, because that's what merchants had. So Mayahana adapted, and said "okay money is okay, monks can handle it, and you can donate to the monastery in gold and silver". This combined with the flourishing of Buddhism in the East, meant all the monasteries there wanted gold/silver, so there was huge demand in China and Japan (go watch/read shogun... literally east meeting west for the first time).

Well, what happened was the huge demand for gold and silver in the East, lead to a massive increase in trying to increase supply - and so to make up the difference in supply, the West invented colonialism, went places in search of treasure (el dorato...), raided and pillaged, had an Enlightenment era, etc.

So the Thriving of Mayhana, caused problems for us. Just like the thriving of the merchants caused problem for Theravada, and created Mayhana. And now we have to solve our own problems, with our own solutions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrxl3Op4rsI

So let me get this right --  Mahayana Buddhism caused the enlightenment in Europe and Europe's colonizing of large parts of Asia, Africa, and America?

A friend told me, this is what ChatGPT said though when I asked it for sources.

The story your friend shared seems to be an interesting take on the historical intersection between Buddhism, money, and the socio-economic forces that shaped the global world. While it’s a bit of a historical narrative mixed with interpretative analysis, there are several key themes you can explore further. Let’s break it down into areas where you can find more information:
1. Early Buddhism and Money

• Historical Buddha's Views on Money: In the early days of Buddhism (around 5th-4th century BCE), the Buddha was very clear about the renunciation of worldly possessions, including money. Monks were meant to live by alms and avoid handling money, which was seen as a source of attachment and desire.
  • Sources: Look into texts like the Vinaya Pitaka (the monastic code) which outlines the rules for monks, including their relationship to material possessions and money.
  • Key themes: The idea that money leads to suffering (because of attachment) and how Buddhism emphasizes the renunciation of material wealth.

2. Mahayana Buddhism and the Shift Toward Wealth

• Mahayana Buddhism (2nd century CE): As Buddhism spread beyond India, particularly to Central Asia, China, and Japan, it adapted to the different cultural and economic realities of these regions. Mahayana Buddhism is more flexible in terms of its interpretation of Buddhist teachings, and it developed a more accommodating stance toward the use of money for religious purposes.
  • The Role of Donations: As Buddhism became institutionalized in the East, monasteries required funding to maintain their large temples, study halls, and the like. This made money donations more common, especially among the merchant class.
  • Sources: The Lotus Sutra and other Mahayana texts might offer insights into how Mahayana teachings evolved and were influenced by the socio-economic contexts of the regions it spread to.

3. The Global Economic Impact and the Link to Colonialism

• The Rise of Trade and the Quest for Wealth: As Buddhist monasteries in East Asia grew, so did the demand for precious metals and goods, leading to increased trade. This demand was part of a broader economic expansion that spanned from the Indian subcontinent to China, Japan, and beyond. This eventually linked with the global development of trade routes like the Silk Road, and later, European colonial expansion.
  • Colonialism and the Search for Wealth: Your friend's story seems to suggest that the growing demand for gold and silver (partly driven by Buddhist monasteries) was one factor in the European colonial project. This view aligns with certain economic theories that link the growth of trade, precious metals, and global exploitation.
  • Sources: Books like The Silk Roads by Peter Frankopan, or The Age of Exploration by various historians, might help trace these developments. Additionally, works by historians of economics, such as The Origins of the Modern World by Robert B. Marks, explore how global commerce influenced history.

4. The Historical Example of Shogun

• Shogun and East-West Interaction: The 1975 novel Shogun by James Clavell is a fictional account of the first major interaction between Japan (specifically the Tokugawa shogunate) and the Portuguese and Spanish traders in the 16th century. The novel touches on how trade and economic pressures shaped Japanese society, which could connect to the idea of East meeting West through both trade and colonial endeavors.
  • Sources: If you're interested in how trade, religion, and economic factors interacted in East Asia, Shogun can offer a fictional but insightful lens into this period of history.

5. The Role of Theravada vs. Mahayana in Buddhism

• Theravada vs. Mahayana: The narrative you mentioned touches on the differences between Theravada Buddhism (prevalent in Southeast Asia) and Mahayana Buddhism (more widespread in East Asia). Theravada Buddhism emphasizes a more ascetic, monastic lifestyle, and a stricter interpretation of the Buddha’s teachings, including the avoidance of money. Mahayana, in contrast, is more inclusive and flexible, adapting to different social and economic contexts, which includes the handling of money.
  • Sources: You can compare the two forms of Buddhism by reading Buddhism: A Very Short Introduction by Damien Keown, or other comparative works that highlight the differences between Theravada and Mahayana traditions.

Further Reading:

1. The Economics of Buddhism: You might also be interested in books or articles that explore how Buddhism has interacted with economic systems throughout history. A good starting point could be The Buddha's Philosophy of Economics by R. H. Roberts or Buddhist Economics by Ernst Schumacher, which discuss the relationship between Buddhist values and economics.
2. Global Trade and Colonialism: To understand how the demand for precious metals drove global economic changes, especially in relation to colonialism, books like The History of the World in 6 Glasses by Tom Standage or The Economic History of the World by Paul Bairoch might be helpful in understanding the broader forces at play.

In short, your friend's story is a fascinating narrative that ties together the history of Buddhism with global economic forces, particularly colonialism and trade. While some parts of the story may require further exploration or refinement, the historical trajectory of Buddhism’s relationship to money is a well-documented subject. By delving into the sources mentioned above, you can explore this fascinating intersection of religion, economics, and history.

So, according to ChatGPT, part of the support for your friend's story is the fictional account in Shogun?   

You know Shogun is the fictionalization of real world history, right?

It's the story of the first English man who found Japan, the Portuguese had already gotten there and started the gold/silk/trade with China and Japan, and the Portuguese empire was making bank, helping them fund their expeditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dgun_(novel)#Historical_accuracy

Oh man, so I decided to buy a harmonica (i feel like it matches my music/art tastes) to learn. I'm watching a tutorial now and the guy is talking about how its all about breath control, soft breaths, breathing from your diaphragm, relaxing your body/mouth, good posture, etc. I accidentally found a new meditation practice lol

Fictionalized history. Sure.

Geoffrey, I'm sorry I carried your log into the never-never land of topic drift.

No worries, it would hardly be a practice log without a couple of those thrown in here and there!

Is Ken Wilber a good read?

Yes.... but...

Actually, this is probably all you need, good summary and critque, no need to wade through all of Wilber's texts unless you want to.

The Rise and Fall of Ken Wilber

He does some writing on the fourth turning you may possibly be interested in. I really like the holon stuff but you can actually get that info in a better fashion from.the dude who invented it. 

Post SE is a fun time to check some of this type of stuff out. I nerded out on it a bit. I think people tend to have a ken Wilbers phase and then kinda get over it lol. 

​​​​​​​I love that lady, I can't remember her name or the name of her models... Shargrol would know. It's like Ken Wilbers maps but on a more personal psychological level. 

Susan Cook-Greuter is her name I think.  Nine levels of ego development is I think in the title of her main essay/treatise. 

Yes !! Me and a few friends had a lot of fun exploring the world through that sort of lens for awhile and I think it really helped me understand some of what was going on with me and how I related to the world at the time. Post conventional development ... There was a period of time when that phrase made it's way into every conversation, that and wave particle dualities, heady days. 

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/5800908#_19_message_5800924

Kenneth Folk is a big fan of Thomas Metzinger and even did his own take on its views of ego and stuff in a very interesting podcast! 3 parts of great stuff I might add  

Give it a try and have a good laugh while you're at it!  
​​​​​​​This is the Part 2 

https://deconstructingyourself.com/dy-002-cosmic-joke-guest-kenneth-folk.html