Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Diogo Kelles Fonseca 11/18/24 11:11 PM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 11/18/24 11:40 PM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Bahiya Baby 11/19/24 12:06 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Diogo Kelles Fonseca 11/19/24 12:49 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Bahiya Baby 11/19/24 4:59 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Chris M 11/19/24 7:22 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Martin 11/20/24 10:43 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Daniel M. Ingram 11/22/24 4:44 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Diogo Kelles Fonseca 11/22/24 8:12 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Pepe · 11/22/24 10:21 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 11/22/24 11:33 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. shargrol 11/22/24 12:31 PM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Papa Che Dusko 11/22/24 7:48 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Diogo Kelles Fonseca 11/22/24 10:59 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Martin 11/22/24 1:52 PM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Adi Vader 11/23/24 4:56 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 11/22/24 11:38 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. pixelcloud * 11/22/24 1:56 PM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Chris M 11/23/24 8:31 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Diogo Kelles Fonseca 1/2/25 10:40 PM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Eudoxos . 1/17/25 7:48 AM
RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work. Actuality of Being 1/15/25 7:47 AM
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Diogo Kelles Fonseca, modified 2 Months ago at 11/18/24 11:11 PM
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Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

Posts: 28 Join Date: 6/25/15 Recent Posts
Daniel's book clearly separetes ultimate/sensory/meditative/whatever reality from ordinary/social/practical/daily one. Where can I read/watch/hear more about this divide, or is that his (and others?) personal interpretation of insight/wisdom/meditation?

Thank you for your attention.

​​​​​​​Cheers y'all
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 2 Months ago at 11/18/24 11:40 PM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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I actually just wrote up a thought i had about that here
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 11/19/24 12:06 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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I'm not sure I follow. Where do you see that divide? I'm not sure I experience it. Meditation can be more meditative an experience but life is life, there's no boundaries, it's all this. 
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Diogo Kelles Fonseca, modified 2 Months ago at 11/19/24 12:49 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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That divide is clear on daniel ingram's book mastering the core teachings of the buddha.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 11/19/24 4:59 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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Perhaps I don't understand. Is there a specific chapter you're thinking of?
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 11/19/24 7:22 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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Is this meant to be about the ol' duality, non-duality bifurcation of experience?
Martin, modified 1 Month ago at 11/20/24 10:43 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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Are you talking about the "two truths" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine) thing where some things are true on one level but not on another, such as saying I am not separate from any other person but I have a separate bank account?
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 1 Month ago at 11/22/24 4:44 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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Hey, sorry for any confusion. Very straightforwardly, these sensations now, the colors, feelings, sounds, sights, thoughts, smells, tastes, etc. are it, now, always, very directly, very literally, very obviously, nothing complicated about it. There is no division as you somehow interpreted the text to mean, just the fact that we often miss the sensate component of thoughts with meanings and interpretatins, so add those in and you have the whole basis of the path, as well as the basis of the result.

Best wishes,

​​​​​​​Daniel
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 11/22/24 7:48 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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There is no way to get out of this "sensate reality" and verify if some "other real reality" actually exists. 

It's all in THIS as IS. 

To gain this understanding gotta study the mind and the sense of self. 

Practice makes perfect. 
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Diogo Kelles Fonseca, modified 1 Month ago at 11/22/24 8:12 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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what up daniel...<br /><br />I'll reframe it.<br /><br />I think I interpreted this way because on the book you often apply commom dharma teachings to sensory reality... for exemple, spiritual ppl always say "stay with the present" but in your work, that doesn't actually mean enjoy the present and don't worry about the past or future, as it would be commonly interpreted. You argue that this type of teaching is actually refering to the actual sensations that can be perseived with mindfulness to develop concentration and/or insight.<br /><br />and that seems unorthodox.<br /><br />The same is true to various other teachings. General Dharma teachings are actually supposed to be applied to direct observation of sensory reality, to life in general, or both?
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Pepe ·, modified 1 Month ago at 11/22/24 10:21 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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Don't miss the big picture, balancing the 7 factors of awakening

​​​​​​​
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Diogo Kelles Fonseca, modified 1 Month ago at 11/22/24 10:59 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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Reframing my question, are dharma teachings like "live the present" or "attachment is suffering" etc are talking about sensory reality, are they talking about life in general as practical life advice, or both?

Cause it seems to me that a lot of dharma teachings, applied to life in general, are basically forms of spiritual bypass, they only make a lot of sense to me regarding meditative instruction.
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 11/22/24 12:31 PM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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Diogo Kelles Fonseca
 General Dharma teachings are actually supposed to be applied to direct observation of sensory reality, to life in general, or both?

I think you are asking a very important question... and in a way, it's similar to another question --- what is the difference between formal on-cushion practice versus normal life off-cushion?

The main meditation practice that is described in MCTB is vipassina, sometimes called mindfulness meditation.  (Actually there are many practices described, but that's one of the major focuses.) The basic idea of vipassina is that by developing a more direct and precise perception of how experience actually occurs, there will be better understanding, less confusion, and greater-well being... and even insights into the nature of self.

But how is this different than just experiencing "regular reality" while just living life? During sitting meditation practice, there is an attempt to focus much more directly and precisely on the sensations and emotions that are arising, rather than "thinking about" the sensations and emotions. That's the main difference. Less analyzing things, more directly experiencing things.

That said, it's okay to have thoughts while in sitting practice. But the goal is not to have thoughts about thoughts about thoughts about thoughts about thoughts. The other part of vipassina practice is noticing thoughts AS thoughts. In otherwords, we notice that we are thinking at the beginning of stream of thoughts. And because thoughts are so tricky, sometimes it's good to "label" or "note" what kind of thought is happening, e.g. "planning thought" "comparing thought" "fantasy thought" "self-judgement thought". When we notice a thought as a thought it short-circuts the proliferaiton of thinking that the mind normally does.

So sensory reality in meditation is about 80% focused on directly experiencing basic "colors, feelings, sounds, sights, thoughts, smells, tastes" as daniel said. Regular reality tends to be about 80% thinking about experience and about 20% directly experiencing.

EDIT added this paragraph: The reason practice is important/required, is because it's nearly impossible to focus directly on sensory experience while living life off-cushion. Sensations really can't be fully experienced, emotions become overwhelming, and there is lots and lots of thinking about the past and the future while off-cushion. So to actually develop this skill, you basically need a sitting practice. Otherwise, it's kinda like trying to do advanced gymastics in real life without training in gymnastics step by step over time. emoticon

It's hard to describe why this kind of practice is so transformative, but it really does help clarify the mind and emotions and perceptions and makes them more appropriate. I guess it's one of those things that only makes sense if you try it. 

Just for the heck of it, I'll point out this chapter of MCTB where Daniel talks about how basic meditation on sensory reality develops into some very strong vipassina practice. It's here and he calls it "The Hierarchy of Vipassana Practice": 

12. Conformity – MCTB.org
 
Hope this is helpful in some way.
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 11/22/24 11:33 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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ah yes, Daniel Ingram's seven factors of enlightenment. love it. 
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 11/22/24 11:38 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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One thing might be worth knowing, is often times the word Dhamma/Dharma has many translations, but in the broadest sense means "Reality". So when the Buddha talks about "One who sees me sees the Dhamma, and one who sees the Dhamma sees me", he is talking about seeing reality directly and learning his teachings that route.
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pixelcloud *, modified 1 Month ago at 11/22/24 1:56 PM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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I think Diogo means the different frameworks of "relative reality" and "ultimate reality."   

And for that, I think the Three Trainings are a more useful frame than the Seven Factors. Especially when the latter are correlated to different meditation practices. No benefits in clarity from that in this specific instant, I fear. 

But I also wonder where in all the Buddhist discourses are there sentences like "be in the present?" I'm no scholar, though. 
So I think Buddhist new age chliches are another layer that we may have to unravel here a bit, thanks to a lot of McMindfulness. 

I  do think that "to be here in the present moment" and "attachment leads to suffering" rather refer to the domain of insight practice and/or the results of insight practice. And it was only after that fateful Jon Kabat Zinn character produced his "Three Chords on the Guitar are actually the Essence of all of Musicology and you can learn them in my Three Month Course" version of Buddhist mind training, that we have people being major league confused about content and ultimate reality of sensations. Or rather, that is the newest version of dumbing down and confusion. After all, some Buddhist meanderings resulted in a religious practice without mediation. Not quite the point the Buddha was trying to make, I think.

Because nowadays, "isn't it this general, lifestyle-y thing to try to be in the moment, and to try to not attach to much? Isn't that what mindfulness is about? Isn't that what this Buddhism stuff is all about?" That is an attitude I encounter a lot. Not saying that is the OP's opinion, mind you. 

In the framework of the Three Trainings, in the first and second training, the training of morality and the training of concentration, you treat reality as if the relative aspects all matter. You treat practice in concentration as if there is a continuous self that can experience a continuous state and that can get better at attaining that state, you treat training in morality as if the sense field is actually divided in a me and a you and how they treat each other matters. 

In the third training, you look into the nature of sensate reality/of experience underlying ALL sensate reality. The three characteristics. In that frame, the sense field turns out to be centerless, without free will, control, etc. So, from a sensate point of view, there is ONLY the present moment, and attachment is impossible. And it is obvious that trying to grasp causes friction. (Wait, what is there to try to grasp? Huh?)

The frame of training 1 and 2 and the frame of training 3 seem very contradictory. So does it matter what I do, or is there not even a choice? Or what? Yes. No. Both. Neither. It's the wrong question, because it is something that cannot be resolved on the plane of logic. Has to be experienced.
So: Here, buy my three month course and learn the three chords to rule them all... I'm kidding. 


Maybe this is helpful:
If you look at water under a microscope, you learn all kinds of usefull things about the nature of water.  And that water is in principle the same liquid, H20, that you can drown in when you fall into a pool. If you fall into a pool, however, you need to know how to swim in water, your knowledge of how all water as the same characteristics on a molecular level might not help you much on that front. 

Both frames refer to water. But they are used toward different goals. Statements like "Don't struggle and you'll float" might be useful in various watery scenarios, and then again, they might not. "All water is flow, and you can never grasp flowing water" might equally come in handy or be quite useless. 

Is a map meant as a way to find a certain destination or to learn what geological structures are to be found in the area? Or might one help with using the other? By, for example, making clear that the destination street actually is high up in the mountains?

So it depends on the map, they might refer to the same territory but are not meant to help with the same navigation task in that territory. Some maps may have utility in different frames. But they still might have been conceived with only one goal in mind. 

But here, in Buddhist practice, we have, I think, THREE MAPS, that you get as a package, because Prince G. thought that neither of them alone is sufficient to navigate the territory of relating to "life in general." On the one hand, that is more to juggle, but on the other, it is more navigation aid - if you can learn to figure out what map to use in what circumstance and how they might work synergistically.   

Now, blanket statements like "be in the moment" or "don't get attached" MIGHT be useful in a relative frame of reality. If that is helpful in an ethical, behaviour modification kind of way, then, sure, take it as "general life advice". 

But I think where these statements come from is the findings of the old pracititoners, that insight practice actually changes something fundamental about how experience unfolds, wich then let's experience actually "be" (for want of a better word) in the "here and now", because something about how default mode networks and attention network function has fundamentally changed, if we posit a meat brain to be a local projection node of experience.

So you can try to "be in the here and now" as an ethical, "general life advice", but what 4th path individuals mean by that, how they experience the momentariness of sensations, seems to be something fundamentally and qualitatively different from someone trying to be more present and trying to not be attached to the things in life that did NOT train in the third training, the training of insight mediation, and did not attain the changes that this training specifically brings about in the acomplished practitioner. 

BUT our hypothetical 4th path individual cannot opt out of "relative life circumstances." The specifics of how you treat another person still matter, even though you might have had deep insight in the ultimate non-existence of a center point anywhere in the sensate field and there might be no more experiental contraction into that illusion in the cranium of that 4th path individual. There is still a body to feed, even if the experience is now just sensations displaying bodies moving around in a world, one of wich provides behind the skin barrier data. 

So different ways to frame reality to work towards different goals are, in one sense, different frameworks and the differences matter, but, in another way of looking at it, they are different frames to work with aspects of the same reality.

Because the everyday, "general life" is known to you only as sensate experience and what sensate experience actually displays is "life in general".

As I said, I think the Buddha, metaphorically speaking, handed out a package of three maps. And then people started to produce all sorts of blanket statements relating to the whole package without making clear to wich map they refer, or whether they refer to where you end up if you actually use all three, and some people couldn't read maps and got things wrong and simplified overmuch (like that fateful Jon Kabat Zinn character), and here we are. 

​​​​​​​That samsara and nirvana may turn out to be the same "place" that you get to by using the three maps in conjunction is something that has to be experienced. Until then, it is a paradox. But I think the frame of the three trainings helps with understanding it, in so far as propositional knowledge can go in that direction. 
Martin, modified 1 Month ago at 11/22/24 1:52 PM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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I think what you are saying makes sense from a certain perspective. With continued practice, your perspective may change. You might want to see what happens. 
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 11/23/24 4:56 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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Hello Diogo

It makes a lot of sense to me to think in the following way.

Dharma - a set of duties to perform given that a particular role has been accepted. So a warrior has a Dharma, a merchant has a Dharma, a parent has a Dharma, a friend has a Dharma. A set of duties describing how best to fulfill that role. One can play multiple roles in life, sometimes sequentially, some times in parallel, so one may have multiple different duty sets.

The day we accept the 3 Noble truths and set ourselves on a path to achieving them, to see to fruition the promise embedded within them, we have defined a role for ourselves. Call it 'Yogi' call it 'Dharma practitioner', the specific language is less important than the intent and meaning. To do justice to this role, to perform it well so that the original objective of freedom from suffering is met, we pick up a set of duties and start delivering on them to the extent possible.

At this point any Dharma teachings cannot remain intellectual ideas. We have to convert them, or somebody has to convert them for us into action points. Action points for 'bhavana' or cultivation in formal meditation, action points for living our lives. These action points are rooted in the intellectual ideas but since they are something that we have to do, as opposed to think about, they have to be tailored to what is within reach for us today.

A simple set of action points could be, merely as an illustration:

1. In formal meditation sessions progressively develop stable attention skills using the breath as an object - detailed instructions in TMI
2. You will experience a lot of tranquility eventually in formal meditation sessions, try to approximate that tranquility getting as close to it as possible in daily life by actively calming the body, confining attention to the task at hand, and cognitively reframing every situation that makes you feel agitated or angry. Unless a panther is chasing you under the jungle canopy agitation, excitement, anger (towards colleagues, friends, family, aquaintences etc) are to be simply relaxed - again and again and againn as many times as you need to.

In this fashion different specific action points for different contexts in life on and off the cushion form a part of an evolving duty set (or Dharma). A duty that we have to perform in order to do justice to the role of a yogi so that as a yogi we are successful.


​​​​​​​I hope something here makes sense.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 11/23/24 8:31 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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It's all quite simple (to vastly overstate the case) - you have to break things down before you can build them back up. IOW, you need to investigate your sensual reality in great depth (your perceptions and your experiences) and deeply "get" how they are put together by your mind. Once you grok that in your bones, you will see how that process affects the entirety of your existence and everyone else's. Daniel Ingram's MCTB is a master class in doing the former. Other traditions in Buddhism are probably better at doing the latter - but all these roads can lead you to the top of the mountain.
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Diogo Kelles Fonseca, modified 16 Days ago at 1/2/25 10:40 PM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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"As I said, I think the Buddha, metaphorically speaking, handed out a package of three maps. And then people started to produce all sorts of blanket statements relating to the whole package without making clear to wich map they refer, or whether they refer to where you end up if you actually use all three, and some people couldn't read maps and got things wrong and simplified overmuch (like that fateful Jon Kabat Zinn character), and here we are. "

thank you for your text.

I also think that is the case.

After some research, I think what I was talking about is the difference between Conventional Truth (Sammuti Sacca) and Ultimate Truth (Paramatha Sacca), I belive that's what daniel presents in his work, and I was wondering if that divide was his original (as very few ppl in buddhist communities talk about that to the point it made me wonder that), or something more classic. Apparently there's this way to see things in the pali canon
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Actuality of Being, modified 3 Days ago at 1/15/25 7:47 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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For an infinite being, there simply isn't something, someone or anything - else. Nothing, nothing else, not a thing, happening. The apparent notions to the contrary, appearing conditions, would also be the appearing of, the very same infinite being. 

So if there is to seem to be something happening, if there is to seem to be 'experience' - an infinite being, being infinite, could simply be or appear to be said experience, in a manor in which it seems, something, all kinds of things, everything, an entire universe - was already happening, already underway. 

Yet, even in being a 'universe', in & of which it seems much was already happening - this would not constitute a seeming experience for a self-aware infinite being. For there to seem to be something else happening already - an infinite, unconditional being - would have to 'veil' itself, of it's own unconditinality & infinitude. Only in such a manor could or would it then seem to, an infinite being, that there is something else, or something other than, itself, such as teachers, teachings, states, awakening, enlightenment or what have you. 
Eudoxos , modified 1 Day ago at 1/17/25 7:48 AM
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RE: Regular reality vs Sensory reality in Daniel's work.

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In my experience, this gets talked about regularly in theravada circles. I can paraphrase two instances from the top of my head. U Pandita in a talk: when you observe, there is no I, no soul, no man/woman. A book by Ajahn Tong: when the mind stays with the the ultimate truth arising at the 6 sense doors, the convential truth does not arise.

I did not understand the highly momentary nature of such statements at first. The issue was cultural/linguistic, as I reflect upon it now. Many Buddhist texts, especially Zen-related, speak about concepts, beyond concepts etc; me being trained in Western philosophy, concept (essence) meant something rather permanent (as opposed to contingent accidents), so I would not be clear on the momentary nature of concept (sañña: perception, conceptualization, contextualization, ...).

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