Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 9 Years ago.

Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 3199 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
I recently got asked by a major TV news anchor to possibly be on a major TV news program to talk about the Hardcore Dharma movement, but for a relatively large number of reasons declined the invite.

However, it did get me thinking about how far this loose, somewhat hacked, in flux, etc. group of concepts, practices and the like was from being really ready for Prime Time, and it got me thinking about the various steps that might be needed for even the simple things, and I came up with a short list, and I have started talking with various people about this, such as Vince Horn and Kenneth Folk, but wondered if others might have thoughts on this.

These ideas are in general not particularly new or unique, but perhaps their juxtaposition and framing will help flush them out.

1) When the A&P to Dark Night transition is as well-known and accepted as being a normal part of human development, as is, say, PMS, and thought of in the same basic human sectarian terms, we will have done something good for the world.

2) When there is a set of basic attention training concepts and techniques that are part of mainstream education, like sports are (thanks to Kenneth Folk for his sports ideas: more on this to come), that will be real progress. How many kids could get off designer speed if we taught concentration and attention stabilization in school? I will bet a lot...

3) When meditation and related skill-sets can be discussed just as what they are: things to develop and skill-sets, rather than in religious terms with all the inherent craziness that nearly always comes along with that, and not have the religious world freak out about them, such as it does with things like evolution and climate change and other basic scientific topics, that will be revolutionary.

4) When the DSM 5 or 6 or whatever has something related to the basic stages of insight and the various criteria that can be used to diagnose them, as well as standard attentional exercises (techniques) to address them that are researched and validated, that will be a great day, as it will draw on the massive and pervasive power of the medical-psychological industry to help people transition through what are very normal if highly under-recognized phases of ordinary human development.

5) When I can see patients in the ED that have obvious what I think of as insight-side-effect-related stuff going on and actually use the concepts and knowledge I have to help them and this not be thought of as weird, that will be very freeing.

6) When we have a truly scientific, straightforward, secular, standardized, nuanced, detailed Anglo-Greco-Roman lexicon for what we do here, that will really help move things forward.

I could go on and on, but that is a start.

What aspects of this stuff would you like to see to make this stuff ready for Prime Time? What would it take to get there? Who will do that work? How do we get them to do it?
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 1635 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
I don't know if this has been done yet, but it would be nice if there were more scientific studies that were long enough to examine people go through the insight cycles (especially those who get to stream entry) and measure other behavioural changes. I'm sure funding would be an issue. emoticon Also there would have to be more dialogue between meditators and scientists and willing participants who have a serious practice but no serious objections to being followed and examined.
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Kenneth Folk, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Here are some thoughts on a conceptual framework based on a parallel with sports and athletics, moving away from the religious/spiritual realm and into plain old human development:

When I was a little boy, physical fitness was Jack Lalanne doing jumping jacks. The idea of physical fitness for ordinary people was just beginning to light up the radar screens of mainstream America in the 1960s. Most of us had only a vague, one-dimensional picture of fitness; you either looked like Jack Lalanne or you were not fit. There was a one-size-fits-all exercise routine for everyone, and as a result, most people didn’t bother to exercise; it didn’t make any sense for them.

Fast forward 50 years and notice the difference: there are gyms everywhere, personal fitness training is commonplace and within the reach of many middle class folks, and it’s possible to train with great precision to achieve the kind of physique that most appeals to you. Whether you want to be a ballet dancer or a power lifter, there are targeted and effective techniques to help you achieve that goal. Exercise science is well understood and getting better all the time. We can now look back and chuckle about how unsophisticated we were just a few decades ago.

Years from now, we will look back and chuckle at how unsophisticated we were back in 2012 with regard to our notions of what constitutes “spiritual awakening” or “enlightenment.” Even for that minority of people who accept that such things are possible, the prevailing view is something I’ve been thinking of half-jokingly as the “pernicious convergence model,” which goes like this: yes there are all sorts of developments and variations as people develop along the axis of enlightenment, but eventually everyone will converge at a single point. What will that look like? It will look like my favorite enlightened fantasy, of course! If I am a Ramana Maharshi fan, anyone who does not look like Ramana simply has not yet gotten that far. If I am a devotee of the Dalai Lama, I will insist that everyone will end up like him. Pick your favorite enlightened person and try to shoehorn everyone into that mold. If they don’t fit, no problem; we can easily explain that by insisting that aren’t yet really awake. It’s a circular argument.

For better or worse, though, this rather un-nuanced view doesn’t fit either the observable facts (there are many examples of highly accomplished contemplatives and each of them is unique) or what we know about human development in general, i.e., there are lots of outcomes along any track of development.

Armed with the physical fitness parallel, on the other hand, we can consider that just as there is no one way to be physically fit, that there is no single thing called spiritual awakening or enlightenment. There are, rather, traits that can be developed, and when they cluster together in certain patterns we can point to those constellations of behavioral and experiences and say, “that is what we mean by contemplative fitness.” (Notice that this is an arbitrary call, an aesthetic influenced by personal and cultural values.) This, in turn, frees us up to train in an almost infinitely flexible way to achieve the outcomes that appeal to us. We will become ever more sophisticated in our ability to design contemplative exercises that target specific states, behaviors, traits, and subjective experiences like well-being, equanimity, compassion, or openness without any need for a religious overlay.

Just as with physical fitness, your outcome will be influenced by what you bring to the table. Are you 6’5”? You are not going to be a jockey. Do you have a delicate bone structure? You are not going to excel as a power lifter. Understanding that certain body types are best suited to certain sports, we can better help individuals reach their potential. We can specialize in the areas in which we are most gifted, while also cross-training to minimize the effects of our weaknesses.

Similarly, your contemplative fitness is going to depend on your inborn talents, your interests, and your willingness to do the exercises that lead to specific results. While it is difficult to imagine mainstream America (or any country) embracing spiritual enlightenment, it is not so far-fetched to envision contemplative fitness as part of a larger package of human development that includes academics, emotional and psychological health, and physical fitness. While we in the pragmatic/hardcore dharma community place a great emphasis on contemplative fitness, often to the exclusion of other forms of development, most folks will see it as just one way to realize one's full potential as a human being. And I think that would be just fine!
C C C, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Kenneth Folk:


Years from now, we will look back and chuckle at how unsophisticated we were back in 2012 with regard to our notions of what constitutes “spiritual awakening” or “enlightenment.”


I think we'll look back at our 2012 notions of spiritual practice and say "everyone used to do this thing called 'noting', and only about .001% ever became enlightened, even after years of practice. How insane were we?!!"

Daniel I don't think it's good to wait until the stars line up perfectly. Just go "balls out", and if all your colleagues think you're weird, big deal. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong. You won't know until you start treating people with mental problems and collecting statistics. It sounds like you're doubting yourself. emoticon
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Kenneth Folk, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

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C C C:


I think we'll look back at our 2012 notions of spiritual practice and say "everyone used to do this thing called 'noting', and only about .001% ever became enlightened, even after years of practice. How insane were we?!!"


How are you defining enlightenment and where did you get the .001% number? If "enlightenment" refers to a continuum of contemplative development including stream entry, then I would estimate the success rate at closer to 80%, at least for those students with whom I've worked personally. For almost all of those students, noting was an important part of the training and I continue to recommend it highly to students at all levels of development. Noting, especially the noting of mind states, brings not only ever-deepening insights into the nature of moment-by-moment experience, but also psychological benefits difficult to achieve by other methods.
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Steph S, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 669 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Posts
Hey Daniel,

Some of the major news network channels in the U.S., like CBS, have covered stuff on meditation in a really palatable for the masses type way. Actually, an article about some of Jud Brewer's research is posted on the CBS website. If you haven't already, you could get in touch with him and ask about how all that went down.

I'd really like to see more like that out there on network news about the biological changes that occur with meditation. As religious as lots of people are, I think it's mostly the people on the extreme end of it that totally refute science. I have friends and family who are quite Christian and even they are willing to break down and say, ok, this makes sense when they see hard scientific evidence. Especially when it comes to helping people cope with disease.

With the A&P to Dark Night stuff... most major coverage I've seen that is advocating meditation has been about the beneficial, stress reducing, feel good aspects of practice. Nothing new to you probably, but it will likely be a big challenge to break out the info that there is stuff like A&P and Dark Night that are part of practice, as it might really freak people out and turn them off to even giving it a try. Or bring on a Dateline type special about the latest danger plaguing mankind - dun dun dun the evil side of meditation! Not saying it's not possible to frame it in a way that is helpful, so this is one to get creative with. Perhaps you'd have to go from the angle that these are things alot of people already are going through, whether or not they formally meditate - and saying, look people are already depressed, angry, disillusioned, etc. and these stages are a valid explanation for that.

As far as meditation in school, ABC, CBS and NBC have done stories on kids doing transcendental meditation. I know very little about TM other than its reputation as being cultish - so I have no idea whether it's a legit form or not. Regardless, the link to kids and meditation is publicly out there in some way. You could expand on this with the practices that have influenced you and your own way of doing things. Also, who do you know that teaches meditation to children?

A long time ago you had talked about wanting to do the lexicon. Has it mostly been a case of not that many people being able to help out yet.. or something else?

Hope this helps.. I'm happy to discuss more.

Steph
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Steph S:
With the A&P to Dark Night stuff... most major coverage I've seen that is advocating meditation has been about the beneficial, stress reducing, feel good aspects of practice. Nothing new to you probably, but it will likely be a big challenge to break out the info that there is stuff like A&P and Dark Night that are part of practice, as it might really freak people out and turn them off to even giving it a try. Or bring on a Dateline type special about the latest danger plaguing mankind - dun dun dun the evil side of meditation!


There are already websites devoted to talking about negative (and sometimes very long term!) side effects people have experienced while practicing Transcendental Meditation. Interestingly, while many of the side effects they describe sound very DN-esque, some of them sound ominously worse. I think, in order to address Dark Night stuff in a helpful way (and avoid a current or future Dateline special along the lines you're mentioning), we need to have a sense of 1) what side effects people get outside of the hardcore dharma movement, 2) whether they're the same or different as what we know, and 3) if they're different, what practices are other people doing that we're not that are specifically hurting them, or what manner of placebo effect is shielding us, or what manner of nocebo effect is harming others and what have we done to avoid it. Otherwise we appear to be some combination of ignorant and partisan / fanatic / blinded to the true state of things.
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katy steger, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 1741 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi Daniel -


To me, this site has a "white hat open source" structure to it: it naturally fosters people's best efforts and sincere engagement over time, including beneficial use of "heated debate" events.

There are some very wealthy businesses that would love to accomplish this efficiency and effectiveness (and overall bonhomie) of the DhO, but their willful sustaining of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder's_syndrome]"founder's syndrome" cannot uproot counterproductive and stressful social memes which squash good ideas, fair play and practical, sincerely engaged testing. So, new employees (despite lavish pay, charitable-matching, extensive mat/pat leave, free gourmet meals, etc) start on their "founder's slide" after about six months, petering into mediocre results and best efforts applied to "excuses" just after 12 months.

Founder's syndrome can start with an attitude of "graciously" helping others, not realizing that the "grace" is contaminated with conceit or avoiding the realization of how destructive is conceit and ignoring how productive is "white hat open source". That's corporate schadenfreude: it's a liability to "non-person corporate persons" that if you built it (and run it on conceit), no one will give a damn. Paycheck, please. So "Founder's syndrome" chokes a slow death: its memes choke the authentic and ongoing base of sincere and interested engagement born on a fair field and mutual goalwork; it cannot withstand stress, so there's turn over and mediocre performance. Turnover is fine and natural, so long as the current team is modeling the white hat mode to the newbies, so the newbies can also pass it on.

So, in three years, the Overground has become a place of open source white hat dharma testing, naturally cauterizing a mis-take that's becoming an unproductive perseveration and fairly shutting down trolls with a "you're being warned/you've been warned/see ya" system. That's very good.

So, just as oat seeds give rise to oat treesemoticon, DhO's open source white hat structure has given rise to a resource for people who are both in a "dark night" place as well as those in a stable jhana training. Practitioner's oscillate between being mentors and students all the time. This benefits everyone and raising the bar for all learning/teaching. How's that for anicca and anatta and working to abate dukkha?


What aspects of this stuff would you like to see to make this stuff ready for Prime Time? What would it take to get there? Who will do that work? How do we get them to do it?
Maybe you can you set up a forum area for this and see how the white hat open source approach develops ideas for "prime time", giving it time to organically develop?

[edit: adding quoted box]
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katy steger, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 1741 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
And to be clear, it's a tribute to founders own conduct -- putting your practice out there for scrutiny and input as well as praise as much as the next person --- that the "choke" and impracticality of founder's syndrome is avoided.

The founder(s) set the tone. In setting up the DhO, you surely anticipated that a lot of smart people were going to come along in the dark night and throw up some stuff. Yet it's clear that the forum and founder(s) are really practicing the Progress of Insight in both wrangling/engaging/guiding persons' expressions dark night/non-equanimity and also recognizing their potential and progress over time.

So, this kind of white hatty open source-ness is very skillful and reflects the sincere practice of its founder(s). That's already exceptionally good, in my book:
1) When the A&P to Dark Night transition is as well-known and accepted as being a normal part of human development, as is, say, PMS, and thought of in the same basic human sectarian terms, we will have done something good for the world.


edit: added quote box and purple text
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Two things before I say anything else: Kenneth, great to see you on the DhO again! Daniel, I get the image of you in a Ron Burgundy-style get-up, complete with big 'tache, if you ever actually do any stuff on TV.

1) When the A&P to Dark Night transition is as well-known and accepted as being a normal part of human development, as is, say, PMS, and thought of in the same basic human sectarian terms, we will have done something good for the world.

I do think that a lot of headway has been made since the dharma-clusterbomb that is MCTB presented a no-bullshit description of what proper insight meditation entails. Just knowing that this transition is typical of pretty much every effective spiritual model is a key to progress in itself, but I don't honestly know whether it could ever be viewed in sectarian terms without a massive shift in the science as a whole. I know there's an ever-increasing openness to this side of things, but the general pattern of how quickly changes in prevailing scientific paradigms go would suggest that we're looking at a good few decades before the radical perceptual changes possible through insight meditation are fully accepted and understood. It's not to say it won't happen, but I think the issue which is so glaringly clear to many of us on here, that a big "spiritual" experience is inevitably followed by the mental-shitstorm from Hades, would be rarely, if ever, considered by your average meditator who got into this just trying to be less stressed out.

2) When there is a set of basic attention training concepts and techniques that are part of mainstream education, like sports are (thanks to Kenneth Folk for his sports ideas: more on this to come), that will be real progress. How many kids could get off designer speed if we taught concentration and attention stabilization in school? I will bet a lot...

I would state quite categorically to anyone in the world that what is possible through meditation is far, far, far better and more satisfying than any drug whatsoever. End of story.

The idea of introducing these sorts of attention training techniques into schools is excellent, and may become more possible as the educational system changes in future; I encourage my daughter to work with her attention and to use it to cut through her own mind-stories, which she has confirmed to be effective, and without any reference to Buddhism or any religious model.

3) When meditation and related skill-sets can be discussed just as what they are: things to develop and skill-sets, rather than in religious terms with all the inherent craziness that nearly always comes along with that, and not have the religious world freak out about them, such as it does with things like evolution and climate change and other basic scientific topics, that will be revolutionary.

I think that this is a very realistic possibility, but the timescales involved before it becomes as commonplace as, for example, NLP terminology, may be a little longer than we expect. I remain optimistic though, it's a wonderful thing to aim for and I think that the Hardcore Dharma movement could be instrumental in making this possible; many of us work in other mediums and carry our practice into everything we do, our interactions with others and the way these relationships develop could provide some unconsidered links which allow for this to become a reality sooner, rather than later.

Isn't it about time we had a revolution anyway? emoticon

I've got more I wanted to add but these are the bits that initially stood out to me, I think this is an excellent idea and wouldn't be surprised if this allowed for the development of both the wiki, the updated MCTB and any other projects related to Hardcore Dharma...all dependently co-arising. emoticon

Excellent, excellent stuff.
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katy steger, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 1741 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
but I don't honestly know whether it could ever be viewed in sectarian terms without a massive shift in the science as a whole. I know there's an ever-increasing openness to this side of things, but the general pattern of how quickly changes in prevailing scientific paradigms go would suggest that we're looking at a good few decades before the radical perceptual changes possible through insight meditation are fully accepted and understood.
Yeah, this is a good point. Could a little tricky talking the Texas Board of Education into the "jhana curriculum."

Nevertheless, the switch from designer speed to meditative stabilization is a great challenge. It is the beginning of someone seeing how to cultivate and use their mind well.

On this point I think it would be really great if someone designed some form of concentrative test so before and after metrics could be obtained. When there are repeatable results, that helps quite a bit.
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Daniel Johnson, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:

5) When I can see patients in the ED that have obvious what I think of as insight-side-effect-related stuff going on and actually use the concepts and knowledge I have to help them and this not be thought of as weird, that will be very freeing.


I'm so curious if there are some stories behind this one. Have you talked with these patients ("off the record") about meditation? I can only imagine how helpful it would have been if I'd gone to the ER when the Dark Night first hit me and some doctor there was able to explain things to me.
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a c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 9 Join Date: 3/22/12 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:


1) When the A&P to Dark Night transition is as well-known and accepted as being a normal part of human development, as is, say, PMS, and thought of in the same basic human sectarian terms, we will have done something good for the world.

2) When there is a set of basic attention training concepts and techniques that are part of mainstream education, like sports are (thanks to Kenneth Folk for his sports ideas: more on this to come), that will be real progress. How many kids could get off designer speed if we taught concentration and attention stabilization in school? I will bet a lot...

3) When meditation and related skill-sets can be discussed just as what they are: things to develop and skill-sets, rather than in religious terms with all the inherent craziness that nearly always comes along with that, and not have the religious world freak out about them, such as it does with things like evolution and climate change and other basic scientific topics, that will be revolutionary.


Is anyone familiar with Kazimierz Dąbrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration TPD)? Dabrowski was a Polish psychiatrist and psychologist (1902-1980) who devoted his life to these aims, but he remains largely unknown in the US outside the field of gifted education. He described the psychological characteristics of particularly intense children who tend to experience A&P/Dark Night phenomena at an early age (though he does not use these terms) and their trajectory of development given optimal support. I believe TPD is, essentially, a secular model of enlightenment tailored to meet the needs of young chronic dark night yogis.

Dabrowski was a lifelong meditator who clearly became highly enlightened, and he was motivated to study what he did by the suicide of his best friend in college. He was also profoundly affected by WWI and WWII. He was imprisoned under Stalin and became a member of a covert anti-fascist group, ultimately emigrating to Canada where he spent the remainder of his life. He was also a playwright and poet, an indefatigable Renaissance man who believed strongly in the importance of creative expression.

I’ve been flirting with the idea of contributing something on Dabrowski and TPD for the MCTB expansion project if people are interested. I’ve found his work to be enormously helpful for putting my own early experiences into context and suspect others on the forum might similarly benefit.

TPD is not without its issues. The terminology is problematic, as he uses common terms in idiosyncratic ways; relatively little of his work has been translated from Polish; the theory itself is complicated and particularly inaccessible to those who have not had these experiences themselves, among other things. However, it is unique among psychological models in viewing periods of neurosis/anxiety/depression as critical to growth and advanced moral development. It has much utility in and of itself, but it may also serve as a case study for identifying specific difficulties faced by those attempting to shift the mainstream perspective on human development. This will not be an easy thing to do, given the current state of affairs in the fields of education and psychiatry and the pressures to maintain the status quo. Consider Plato’s allegory of the cave…
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Is anyone familiar with Kazimierz Dąbrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration TPD)?

I've definitely heard of it and, from what I can recall, I can definitely see why you would suggest it. This was the first ever non-spiritual model I found that described this "positive disintergration" as an integral part of the process of development, I was only about 19 at the time and it helped me understand so much without reference to any spiritual system although I'd genuinely forgotten about it until you mentioned it.

Definitely an interesting model, it'd be great to hear more about it.
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bernd the broter, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
a c:

Is anyone familiar with Kazimierz Dąbrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration TPD)? Dabrowski was a Polish psychiatrist and psychologist (1902-1980) who devoted his life to these aims, but he remains largely unknown in the US outside the field of gifted education. He described the psychological characteristics of particularly intense children who tend to experience A&P/Dark Night phenomena at an early age (though he does not use these terms) and their trajectory of development given optimal support. I believe TPD is, essentially, a secular model of enlightenment tailored to meet the needs of young chronic dark night yogis.


I read a bit of it, but I didn't come to the conclusion that he is talking about the progress of insight at all.
Exactly what makes you think he does?
The notion that difficult "psychoneuroses" are an important for development themselves is one which isn't that unpopular in psychotherapy in general.
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Constance Casey, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 47 Join Date: 9/21/09 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:


What aspects of this stuff would you like to see to make this stuff ready for Prime Time?
What would it take to get there? Who will do that work? How do we get them to do it?


I would rather see it come up in a documentary production on pbs than on prime time network at this point.
I'm often uncomfortable about the way in which major networks present and/or edit information.
So, my concern is the way in which it is written and presented, this is very important.
The people involved need to be clear, and not have hidden agendas, be helpful, etc.

It can be brought to the attention of a director-writer interested in making videos who is familiar with this territory.
They will need money and support.
If I had the finances, I've considered this as a project of interest.
I could see a number of interviews with teachers and students, as a place to start, with information on the stages of insight, etc. also, some of the latest work in neuroscience.
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
I would rather see it come up in a documentary production on pbs than on prime time network at this point.

Not being familiar with U.S. television networks, I can't really comment on their general practices in terms of editing and such, but I do know that the major broadcasters in the U.K. are also prone to partisan presentations of certain subjects, depending on their intent. Based on this, I think your idea is a good one and would certainly allow for a more in-depth, real-life look at what it is that we practice and discuss.

It can be brought to the attention of a director-writer interested in making videos who is familiar with this territory.

This is something I'd be very much interested in, I'm not a professional by any means but I know enough about writing, video production, editing and the pragmatic dharma movement to be able to do something with it. It's obviously not quite as simple as that, but I think it's a really good idea which is worth discussing in future and I'd be more than happy to do whatever I can to facilitate it.
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Constance Casey, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 47 Join Date: 9/21/09 Recent Posts
I was just thinking about Judy Irving, and felt I wanted to share this woman's work.
I respect her work and how she does things.
I may be able to meet with her in an upcoming trip to San Franscisco in September to discuss a project with her.
http://www.pelicanmedia.org/bio.html

Just sharing....because it is important how we share emoticon

with metta, and upekkha, Constance

p.s. this is just an additional note for this thread not a reply to anyone.
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Simon T., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Getting ready for Prime Time: a Long Term Plan

Posts: 381 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
One interesting example of how to bring awareness to the path is the work of Sam Harris. He already got the attention of scientists, skeptics and atheists and now he try to get them interested in the dharma. Those are the kind of people that can get really interested in the dharma once it has been strip off the dogmas. I think western psychology and western philosophy is too dependent on dualism to change anything soon. On the other hand, hard science point toward non-dualism and scientifically-minded people can be interested by the empirical approach of insight practices.

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