RE: Richard's insight practice - Discussion
Just organizing what I've done so far and creating a practice thread.
Okay I've been doing many different practices: Noting "arising of thoughts", "gone", staying as "shinkantanza" (do nothing), "viewing all senses at the same time", "jhana jogging", "no-self" 2nd gear KFD concentration practices. They all work in their own way.
I started off with horrible concentration and after months of practice with audiodharma.org audio streams and in 2008 I got a first jhana. I started insight practice after that but it was weak and more like concentration instead. I started noticing that 2nd and 3rd jhanas with piti and sukkha while I was attempting vipassana. Once I got to noting more consistently (after being recommended to this site:grin
, I could just let go of the noting in the later part of the mediation sittings and hook up with the vibrations of the senses. Once that happened there was a shift where I thought my head would explode (probably A & P). Continuing to note I still didn't feel any dark night symptoms until I noted more accurately the 3 characteristics. The noting was too much focused on impermanence and ignoring not-self, and especially dissatisfaction. Once I started noting dissatisfaction after every mental striving a lot of my habitual enjoyments and negative mental habits were appearing obsolete due to the obvious dissatisfaction. This dissatisfaction lasted at least 3 weeks earlier this year. Once I started noting at work more, shifts happened and there was a gradual feeling that I could get relief while noting the most unpleasant emotional arisings. This became more confident even when dealing with difficult people (Cluster B types
).
This site helped with understanding no-self along with 2nd gear practices:
Anatta
Once equanimity started appearing it was like bursting for air in a sunny ocean after being down in the murky depths. The feeling of sanity was very encouraging. It was so encouraging that I started getting lazy. The equanimity was literally vibrating in my skull and the reactive part of the mind loved to go dormant giving the senses more vibrancy. The equanimity left me satisfied before, during and after fun activities. Yet this equanimity fades and has to be regenerated. I fell into reobservation which was 10 times worse than the dark-night experiences I had before. Thankfully they only lasted a couple of nights and equanimity would return again and again feeling more natural. Reobservation still happens but it's more like a vague unease or restlessness that reappears but with less force than before.
Now more recently looking at Nick's blog and some of his comments plus Tommy's experiment and I was getting a little confused while using Shinzen Young's instructions for Shinkantanza "just sitting" (which are similar but slightly different in approach) to just staying with all your senses at the same time. Both of these practices have been a help. With Shinkantanza I can let habitual thoughts go where they please and I ended up concentrating up to equanimity instead. I knew that wasn't really the practice because there's still too much habitual concentration intention. Now with applying the same practice but allowing all the senses to appear as they are at the same time it's easier to see the meditative striving for meditative states being similarly stressful as any other mental striving.
So yesterday I decided to return to basic noting (despite wanting to avoid it as too much striving) with the knowledge in the prior paragraph. Before I noted I just easily let go of any striving and stayed with all the senses (including taste) and then started noting. As I started noting I could tell when a new thought was arising but as the thought started it was very weak and then I noticed that the senses were still clear in awareness during this arising. When the thoughts made more thoughts and got more intense then they would start obscuring some of the senses. While noting the arising and the passing away a sense of elation started coming back again. So my practice now will be focused on staying with the senses first and then noting cessations or allowing shinkantanza. The noting nudges me in the right direction despite some interference with awareness.
Okay I've been doing many different practices: Noting "arising of thoughts", "gone", staying as "shinkantanza" (do nothing), "viewing all senses at the same time", "jhana jogging", "no-self" 2nd gear KFD concentration practices. They all work in their own way.
I started off with horrible concentration and after months of practice with audiodharma.org audio streams and in 2008 I got a first jhana. I started insight practice after that but it was weak and more like concentration instead. I started noticing that 2nd and 3rd jhanas with piti and sukkha while I was attempting vipassana. Once I got to noting more consistently (after being recommended to this site:grin
, I could just let go of the noting in the later part of the mediation sittings and hook up with the vibrations of the senses. Once that happened there was a shift where I thought my head would explode (probably A & P). Continuing to note I still didn't feel any dark night symptoms until I noted more accurately the 3 characteristics. The noting was too much focused on impermanence and ignoring not-self, and especially dissatisfaction. Once I started noting dissatisfaction after every mental striving a lot of my habitual enjoyments and negative mental habits were appearing obsolete due to the obvious dissatisfaction. This dissatisfaction lasted at least 3 weeks earlier this year. Once I started noting at work more, shifts happened and there was a gradual feeling that I could get relief while noting the most unpleasant emotional arisings. This became more confident even when dealing with difficult people (Cluster B types ). This site helped with understanding no-self along with 2nd gear practices:
Anatta
Once equanimity started appearing it was like bursting for air in a sunny ocean after being down in the murky depths. The feeling of sanity was very encouraging. It was so encouraging that I started getting lazy. The equanimity was literally vibrating in my skull and the reactive part of the mind loved to go dormant giving the senses more vibrancy. The equanimity left me satisfied before, during and after fun activities. Yet this equanimity fades and has to be regenerated. I fell into reobservation which was 10 times worse than the dark-night experiences I had before. Thankfully they only lasted a couple of nights and equanimity would return again and again feeling more natural. Reobservation still happens but it's more like a vague unease or restlessness that reappears but with less force than before.
Now more recently looking at Nick's blog and some of his comments plus Tommy's experiment and I was getting a little confused while using Shinzen Young's instructions for Shinkantanza "just sitting" (which are similar but slightly different in approach) to just staying with all your senses at the same time. Both of these practices have been a help. With Shinkantanza I can let habitual thoughts go where they please and I ended up concentrating up to equanimity instead. I knew that wasn't really the practice because there's still too much habitual concentration intention. Now with applying the same practice but allowing all the senses to appear as they are at the same time it's easier to see the meditative striving for meditative states being similarly stressful as any other mental striving.
So yesterday I decided to return to basic noting (despite wanting to avoid it as too much striving) with the knowledge in the prior paragraph. Before I noted I just easily let go of any striving and stayed with all the senses (including taste) and then started noting. As I started noting I could tell when a new thought was arising but as the thought started it was very weak and then I noticed that the senses were still clear in awareness during this arising. When the thoughts made more thoughts and got more intense then they would start obscuring some of the senses. While noting the arising and the passing away a sense of elation started coming back again. So my practice now will be focused on staying with the senses first and then noting cessations or allowing shinkantanza. The noting nudges me in the right direction despite some interference with awareness.
I agree. "Stay" would be the wrong word. After last night it's clearer to me that what we normally look at as the self is like you say: a zooming in on phenomena to look for what is to like or dislike. All thoughts feel like they have a wanting behind them and it's clear how pervasive habituation really is and how impersonal many decisions are and how foreign some reactivity is when you're clearly looking at it. 
Just allowing the reactivity to subside and let the senses (which are already working) come to the foreground on their own illuminates the remaining tension that's there. That remaining tension just feels like wanting without any particular object which is quite dangerous in the wrong environment. I have more respect for how much of a dark veil strong emotions are. Just thinking about a hateful person in my past and exacting revenge is a perfect way to blow mindfulness out of the water. That book by Thich Nhat Hanh "Understanding our mind" and how he uses gardening as a metaphor for developing new habits is the key. Developing a habit of a peaceful mind and making choices and actions based on a clear mind over and over again will atrophy the old habits (probably not completely) and strengthen the new habits. There are only two ways I can see now. You have to either develop a strong desire to change habits (which is exhausting mentally) or conserve energy from wasted mental movements and use them towards those same worthwhile goals.
There's still enjoyment in noting and it's important to note with more subtlety so one is not in a "meditation practice" but just getting on with life. Relax the body fabrications and then relax the mind fabrications to allow the clear seeing. At this point I don't see wanting disappearing so it makes sense to then find something that's worth wanting:
Yogi toolbox Good Practice
Venerable Ayya Khema
Yogi toolbox Lifestyle Approach
Never mind! That answered my question. Wow what an embarrassment of riches.
Just allowing the reactivity to subside and let the senses (which are already working) come to the foreground on their own illuminates the remaining tension that's there. That remaining tension just feels like wanting without any particular object which is quite dangerous in the wrong environment. I have more respect for how much of a dark veil strong emotions are. Just thinking about a hateful person in my past and exacting revenge is a perfect way to blow mindfulness out of the water. That book by Thich Nhat Hanh "Understanding our mind" and how he uses gardening as a metaphor for developing new habits is the key. Developing a habit of a peaceful mind and making choices and actions based on a clear mind over and over again will atrophy the old habits (probably not completely) and strengthen the new habits. There are only two ways I can see now. You have to either develop a strong desire to change habits (which is exhausting mentally) or conserve energy from wasted mental movements and use them towards those same worthwhile goals. There's still enjoyment in noting and it's important to note with more subtlety so one is not in a "meditation practice" but just getting on with life. Relax the body fabrications and then relax the mind fabrications to allow the clear seeing. At this point I don't see wanting disappearing so it makes sense to then find something that's worth wanting:
Yogi toolbox Good Practice
* Noticing the difference between superficial feelings and core drives.
Venerable Ayya Khema
Since each one (feelings-pleasant, painful and neutral) disappears to give room to another one, could we then say that each time one disappears and gives rise to another one that the “me” has disappeared as certain entity and arises as new one? It never occurs to us to say a thing like that but that would be logical, wouldn't it?
Yogi toolbox Lifestyle Approach
"This is where the Buddha ran into the central paradox of becoming, because the craving and clinging that provide the moisture do not have to delight in the field or the resultant becoming in order to bear fruit. If the mind fastens on a particular set of possibilities with the aim of changing or obliterating them, that acts as moisture for a state of becoming as well. Thus the desire to put an end to becoming produces a new state of becoming. Because any desire that produces becoming also produces suffering, the Buddha was faced with a strategic challenge: how to put an end to suffering when the desire to put an end to suffering would lead to renewed suffering.
His solution to this problem involved a paradoxical strategy, creating a state of becoming in the mind from which he could watch the potentials of kamma as they come into being, but without fueling the desire to do anything with regard to those potentials at all. In the terms of the field analogy, this solution would deprive the seed of moisture. Eventually, when all other states of becoming had been allowed to pass away, the state of becoming that had acted as the strategic vantage point would have to be deprived of moisture as well. Because the moisture of craving and clinging would have seeped into the seed even of this strategic becoming, this would eventually mean the destruction of the seed, as that moisture and any conditioned aspects of consciousness the seed might contain were allowed to pass away. But any unconditioned aspects of consciousness—if they existed—wouldn’t be touched at all." Thanissaro Bhikkhu: The Paradox Of Becoming.
His solution to this problem involved a paradoxical strategy, creating a state of becoming in the mind from which he could watch the potentials of kamma as they come into being, but without fueling the desire to do anything with regard to those potentials at all. In the terms of the field analogy, this solution would deprive the seed of moisture. Eventually, when all other states of becoming had been allowed to pass away, the state of becoming that had acted as the strategic vantage point would have to be deprived of moisture as well. Because the moisture of craving and clinging would have seeped into the seed even of this strategic becoming, this would eventually mean the destruction of the seed, as that moisture and any conditioned aspects of consciousness the seed might contain were allowed to pass away. But any unconditioned aspects of consciousness—if they existed—wouldn’t be touched at all." Thanissaro Bhikkhu: The Paradox Of Becoming.
Never mind! That answered my question.
Wow what an embarrassment of riches.
Shinkantanza 1 hour: Allowed all the senses to be as they are. It seems to work in a reduction of mental stress. The trick is to avoid intending or trying to stop automatic thoughts. The only weird thing was that in a diffuse focus I couldn't feel my hands. Once you focus on them they come back. 
I'm noting all day. Noting is improving by staying with the vibrations of experience (95%) and then noting 1Hz (5%).
I'm noting all day. Noting is improving by staying with the vibrations of experience (95%) and then noting 1Hz (5%).
Did a little bit of retooling.
1 hour Great perfection (let senses appear in foreground)/Shinkantanza (let go of intentional noting)/HAIETMOBA (only note total experience):
Big relief. As I started with the above instructions in order the jhanas started appearing on their own with no object other than awareness. My brain likes to talk about the dharma and describe the experience so mental noting was replaced with HAIETMOBA which is like noting all sensations at the same time and that pure equanimity that first blew my mind a month ago came again except with little effort necessary and a feeling of normality like I'm getting used to it. The only concentration necessary is to ask "How Am I Experiencing This Moment Of Being Alive?" when the mind wants to describe the experience. The beauty of HAIETMOBA is the computation power needed to do it is less than basic noting. Of course when noting is done properly then I expect all the practices lead to the same result. My vision was a little distorted like having doors warp and melt. I was blinking but it happened even then because the concentration was so spot on. Once attention is allowed to include all senses the vision returned to normal. HAIETMOBA sends you into the senses much like quick noting so the brain feels a little bit of concentration tension but much less than with individual noting. The sense of self is still there but it feels like it's erroding. I'm just going to do this all day and as much as possible to see if there is any tiredness.
EDIT: This was a help also:
1 hour Great perfection (let senses appear in foreground)/Shinkantanza (let go of intentional noting)/HAIETMOBA (only note total experience):
Big relief. As I started with the above instructions in order the jhanas started appearing on their own with no object other than awareness. My brain likes to talk about the dharma and describe the experience so mental noting was replaced with HAIETMOBA which is like noting all sensations at the same time and that pure equanimity that first blew my mind a month ago came again except with little effort necessary and a feeling of normality like I'm getting used to it. The only concentration necessary is to ask "How Am I Experiencing This Moment Of Being Alive?" when the mind wants to describe the experience. The beauty of HAIETMOBA is the computation power needed to do it is less than basic noting. Of course when noting is done properly then I expect all the practices lead to the same result. My vision was a little distorted like having doors warp and melt. I was blinking but it happened even then because the concentration was so spot on. Once attention is allowed to include all senses the vision returned to normal. HAIETMOBA sends you into the senses much like quick noting so the brain feels a little bit of concentration tension but much less than with individual noting. The sense of self is still there but it feels like it's erroding. I'm just going to do this all day and as much as possible to see if there is any tiredness.
EDIT: This was a help also:
1 hour cessation noting practice: Just allowed the natural senses to be in the foreground. I inclined the mind towards all vibrations and inclined the mind towards the gaps between vibrations and felt very restful throughout the day. There's still a little bit of addictiveness to the waves which may have to do with dopamine. The withdrawal symptoms are still less than in the past and despite feeling a little like...
...the mind lets go into tranquillity.
...the mind lets go into tranquillity.
Just for fun I decided to do pure samadhi practice for an hour. I found that it was easy to stay with the breath and any cognitive interruptions didn't last long. It was like a teflon brain. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I got no jhana factors at all and I could tell the brain felt like it didn't need the practice and it just hurt my head with large 3rd eye pressure in the forehead. Even relaxing the tension while still practicing was painful (hello 3 characteristics!). The closest thing to a "jhana" now is simply doing the Shikantanza/Great perfection/HAIETMOBA (whatever you want to call it) practice and enjoying the vibrations in the senses. I can get the same results with quick light noting practice. Even those nice feelings are not something to attach to. They are starting to feel a little crude. It's almost like your brain likes basic table wine, but then when you try above average wine the basic won't do. I'm assuming when I try outstanding wine then the above average won't do either.
The next step is to keep presence in the senses all day and especially when on the computer, reading, working, and talking to people. I can still "checkout" and attach to thoughts in those activities so more clear seeing is needed to get back to reality.
The next step is to keep presence in the senses all day and especially when on the computer, reading, working, and talking to people. I can still "checkout" and attach to thoughts in those activities so more clear seeing is needed to get back to reality.
Note on old habits: I used feel sorry for myself a lot in the past and just recently I tried going in that same direction again. This time my tears were a lot less, the pain was less and the clouding of experience reduced. It lasted maybe 30 seconds and then I'm back to normal again. It seems freakish but at the same time quite healthy. This makes getting into a positive mood much easier. For those just starting on the practice after around 4-5 years (sooner if you do retreats) it really does get better.
Shikantanza: It's getting easier and easier to dwell in the senses. Some recent troubles with family members that recur regularly are now feeling less of a bother. I get less worked up. The drama is less engaging. I'm also noticing that fear and inhibition is starting to weaken in a more noticable way. I seem to care less and less what people think of me, and (even better) I care less and less what "I" think others think of me. In the past I could feel a harsh reactivity in the chest when thinking about the judgments of others and now I'm identifying less and less with it. The rest and elation is becoming less explosive and more normal. When I think about things I would like to achieve in the future, I'm more interested in what I'm doing about it now. I need less instant gratification.
In the past I could feel a harsh reactivity in the chest when thinking about the judgments of others and now I'm identifying less and less with it. The rest and elation is becoming less explosive and more normal. When I think about things I would like to achieve in the future, I'm more interested in what I'm doing about it now. I need less instant gratification.
Shikantanza: I think I had a turning point last night. I continued the practice as usual but I noticed that letting go is becoming much easier. I saw non-conceptually that 99% of my internal thinking and talk is about likes and dislikes even in indirect ways. By letting go of having to like or dislike anything it led to a jhana like experience except with no effort. The experience was so beautiful I was crying tears of joy with gratitude and relief. It was like the best clear indication of the three characterisitcs except with this practice there was nothing to do and nothing to achieve. Just let go. Unfortunately the experience was so overwhelmingly good that my brain wanted to conceptualize it and rehearse the results. Of course I let that go to and I want to keep letting go all day. I have to be careful because this letting go wasn't something that had to be done it was done all by itself simply by clear seeing. This was just a beautiful taste but the new habit has to take time to settle. The only real effort in this practice is to use willpower to keep seeing just for the sake of it. The concentration object (if I can even call it that) is just awareness or nothing. I didn't have to "concentrate" on it. It just happens on it's own. The last layers of fear and inhibition are starting to crack.
The experience is like AUTOMATICALLY letting go of something painful simply because it isn't necessary to function normally. The letting go also has a refreshing feeling of "there is nothing to need". Of course the "I" wants to feel like this all day but the "I" must be reminded that it is not needed to do this. There is also something deathlike in that I feel more and more accepting of death and imperfection in life. The near feeling before this nice experience is "I'm okay in just dying right here" except it's not suicidal but just deep acceptance that death is a natural part of life.
EDIT: This might be 4.2/4.3/4.4 Equanimity according to Daniel's Jhana/Nana table. At least the descriptions feel right.
The experience is like AUTOMATICALLY letting go of something painful simply because it isn't necessary to function normally. The letting go also has a refreshing feeling of "there is nothing to need". Of course the "I" wants to feel like this all day but the "I" must be reminded that it is not needed to do this.
There is also something deathlike in that I feel more and more accepting of death and imperfection in life. The near feeling before this nice experience is "I'm okay in just dying right here" except it's not suicidal but just deep acceptance that death is a natural part of life.EDIT: This might be 4.2/4.3/4.4 Equanimity according to Daniel's Jhana/Nana table. At least the descriptions feel right.
This particular quote from AEN's book is really helping me to get away from subtly manipulating thoughts. There's more room to allow thoughts without feeling guilt if there's a lot of thoughts. Less pain is good.
11 th December 2010
We often think that thought is obscuring our 'experience of Nowness' or 'experience of
Presence'...
As if the present moment is what is actually present in the absence of thought.
But have we actually look at thought itself... the actuality of thought.
Isn't thought itself an arising happening now? If we look nakedly at the manifestation of
thought... we discover it to be of the similar vivid intense presence as that which is
experienced in the absence of conceptual thoughts.
Thought too is Presence, is Nowness, is Awareness, whatever you want to call it (they
aren't an inherent substance but merely words pointing to the vivid and insubstantial
arisings of the moment)... it is vivid, bright, clear, though insubstantial (like anything
else). It is non-dual: there is no separation of a thinker and thought... there is just the
vivid appearance of thought.
Maintaining awareness, 'living in the now', presence, and so on, therefore does not
require getting rid of thought or 'remaining in the gap of no-thought' like what many
teachers teach.
Maintaining presence can be done 'within' thought itself... by dropping all striving (to
maintain any particular state of presence), resistance and clinging, and simply and
mindfully letting all experiences including thoughts to arise and subside in its own
luminous and empty nature.
Remember as I said before: thoughts aren't the problem, clinging is.
By being awake 'within' thoughts, we stop ourselves from getting lost in our thought
stories... we are present to the entire field of experience rather than narrowing our
focus on our mental chatter. Whatever arises is allowed to unfold and then subside on
its own without clinging or rejecting.
We often think that thought is obscuring our 'experience of Nowness' or 'experience of
Presence'...
As if the present moment is what is actually present in the absence of thought.
But have we actually look at thought itself... the actuality of thought.
Isn't thought itself an arising happening now? If we look nakedly at the manifestation of
thought... we discover it to be of the similar vivid intense presence as that which is
experienced in the absence of conceptual thoughts.
Thought too is Presence, is Nowness, is Awareness, whatever you want to call it (they
aren't an inherent substance but merely words pointing to the vivid and insubstantial
arisings of the moment)... it is vivid, bright, clear, though insubstantial (like anything
else). It is non-dual: there is no separation of a thinker and thought... there is just the
vivid appearance of thought.
Maintaining awareness, 'living in the now', presence, and so on, therefore does not
require getting rid of thought or 'remaining in the gap of no-thought' like what many
teachers teach.
Maintaining presence can be done 'within' thought itself... by dropping all striving (to
maintain any particular state of presence), resistance and clinging, and simply and
mindfully letting all experiences including thoughts to arise and subside in its own
luminous and empty nature.
Remember as I said before: thoughts aren't the problem, clinging is.
By being awake 'within' thoughts, we stop ourselves from getting lost in our thought
stories... we are present to the entire field of experience rather than narrowing our
focus on our mental chatter. Whatever arises is allowed to unfold and then subside on
its own without clinging or rejecting.
Where I am now with no self is that experiences and thoughts are known. This knowing doesn't have a substance or location. You can't grasp at it or conceptualize it. It just is. It's not solid. A thought of a "thinker" is just another thought. The "thinker" thought doesn't conceptualize other separate thoughts. It's just another thought. This is pretty fun, though there are deeper realizations.
Okay my Shikantanza practice has been changed with ruthless dependent origination reminders thoughout the day and during meditation. When sitting and doing nothing it's easier to get a handle on the vibrations in the senses and especially on the skin. When clinging/stress appears I just look at that as a sign that deep down the body believes in an inherent self. By understanding universal impermanence and letting go it's almost like instant relief and jhana factors start to rev up. The body sense appears to focus here and there while other parts of the body seem to disappear while the focus is somewhere else. In my sittings I'm feeling tingling sensations deeper in the throat and the back of the head. The sense of self appears to be a little version of me mimicking meditation while I meditate and is mimicking what I do throughout the day. This is definitely like the Wizard of Oz and pulling back the curtain. Similar to stories of the Buddha the brain assulted me with violent and super lusty female sexual images and movements doing it to me every which way and I just barely saw through them and didn't get lost in them. Psycho people were trying to shoot me with ridiculously scary smiles. Wow that was hard! You have to let go of everything. The Amygdala is packed with shit, lust, and over the top fears. That was almost overwhelming at times What's cool though is that there's more hope now that sexual desire and paranoid fears can be overcome with more practice. I can also see that with diligent mindfulness dieting might be more doable. You have to feel the aversion and craving and start letting go ASAP before the action takes place.
There was a point where the mind felt like it went into overdrive and the sense of self started to shrink like a collapsing star. Unfortunately there was some fear residue and the self narrowed to a singularity but didn't completely collapse. Seems like a near miss. Still I feel like I have replaced my butter knife with an exacto knife so I'll be continuing with this practice.
What's cool though is that there's more hope now that sexual desire and paranoid fears can be overcome with more practice. I can also see that with diligent mindfulness dieting might be more doable. You have to feel the aversion and craving and start letting go ASAP before the action takes place.There was a point where the mind felt like it went into overdrive and the sense of self started to shrink like a collapsing star. Unfortunately there was some fear residue and the self narrowed to a singularity but didn't completely collapse. Seems like a near miss. Still I feel like I have replaced my butter knife with an exacto knife so I'll be continuing with this practice.
Day practice: After yesterday I've continued with the viewing of dependent origination on everything. Even viewing how my computer screen is made up of small parts helps with the letting go. As soon as any clinging starts appearing I remind myself of the impermanent nature of the object and it's easy to let go. Letting go repeatedly eventually leads to strong concentration and a peak experience but when the experience returns to normal a few hours later it's still a good experience. I can see how it can normalize. When I ran out of work I was given some extra work and coworkers were shocked at my lack of complaining. It's been the smoothest normal day in my life so far. No reason to stop letting go.
It's been the smoothest normal day in my life so far. No reason to stop letting go.
Similar smooth day today. The difference is that when old mental habits wanted to come back they weren't as powerful and I actually caught some wrong speech developing in my mind and some quick compassion came out that was unexpected and beautiful that prevented me from saying something unskillful. It's almost like even the thinking of it was unpleasant and it needed to be dropped. A couple of days ago my normal equanimity felt more like driving on a good solid road but with a few bumps and potholes. Now it's like driving on a newly paved road. Less sticky in DhO parlance.
I definitely recommend introducing dependent origination reminders before letting go of clinging. It smooths it out with small doses of dispassion. It works pretty quickly. Just think about the impermanence of everything in you and around you and see how everything is built from tiny particles and realize that clinging to anything that isn't permanently solid leads to the same result. I'll still have to see how this plays out at work. Right now people are projecting stress on my facial expressions that I don't feel. I'm also trying to fabricate some smiles which I can see (like Shinzen's focus on the positive) magnifies the enjoyment so I can savour the results of letting go of clinging. This is definitely a nice shift. The confidence comes from knowing that I know what to do if old negative habits come back. I can see there's still more room for dispassion to continue. Staring out of the window at work and it was natural to feel more non-dual. The scalp and facial muscles are relaxed.
I definitely recommend introducing dependent origination reminders before letting go of clinging. It smooths it out with small doses of dispassion. It works pretty quickly. Just think about the impermanence of everything in you and around you and see how everything is built from tiny particles and realize that clinging to anything that isn't permanently solid leads to the same result. I'll still have to see how this plays out at work. Right now people are projecting stress on my facial expressions that I don't feel.
I'm also trying to fabricate some smiles which I can see (like Shinzen's focus on the positive) magnifies the enjoyment so I can savour the results of letting go of clinging. This is definitely a nice shift. The confidence comes from knowing that I know what to do if old negative habits come back. I can see there's still more room for dispassion to continue. Staring out of the window at work and it was natural to feel more non-dual. The scalp and facial muscles are relaxed.
Just re-reading an article on the AEN blog which I didn't fully understand before but I do now, in regards to thoughts. BTW I recommend reading all of it:
Dialectic of reflection and presence
My experience of the above even while typing and thinking is that it's like the thought bubble fills in the gap of a lack of mindfulness. That's why it's hard to do because it's about maintaining it all the time but at the same time not blowing tons of energy with noting or fabricated concentration. Thinking while mindful feels so different than thinking without mindfulness.
So this connects the noters and non-noters with the same prescription to be present to all phenomena. As soon as the practice is objectified and attached to it's just another divide being created.
In the meantime if it's hard to keep being present during thoughts because of the speed of mental activity in work or other emotionally turbulent situations then proceed as follows:
Yet cognitive therapy will still have a sense of separation so one should keep going in the practice while not avoiding responsibilities:
And I can stay present in all this typing. I don't have to "own" the knowledge. The confidence comes from doing which is similar to the jhana factors in dealing with laziness & doubt.
Dialectic of reflection and presence
The ultimate practice here is learning to remain fully present and awake in the middle of whatever thoughts, feelings, perceptions, or sensations are occurring and to appreciate them, in Mahamudra/Dzogchen terms, as Dharmakaya -- as an ornamental display of the empty, luminous essence of awareness. Like waves on the ocean, thoughts are not separate from awareness. They are the radiant clarity of awareness in motion. In remaining awake in the middle of thoughts -- and recognizing them as the luminous energy of awareness -- the practitioner maintains presence and can rest within their movement. As Namkhai Norbu (1986) suggests:
"The essential principle is to ... maintain presence in the state of the moving wave of thought itself ... If one considers the calm state as something positive to be attained, and the wave of thought as something negative to be abandoned, and one remains caught up in the duality of grasping and rejecting, there is no way of overcoming the ordinary state of the mind.”
"The essential principle is to ... maintain presence in the state of the moving wave of thought itself ... If one considers the calm state as something positive to be attained, and the wave of thought as something negative to be abandoned, and one remains caught up in the duality of grasping and rejecting, there is no way of overcoming the ordinary state of the mind.”
It is a dualistic fixation, the tension between "me" -- as self -- and "my thoughts" -- as other -- that makes thinking problematic, tormenting, "sticky," like the tarbaby to which Brer Rabbit becomes affixed by trying to push it away. Thoughts become thick, solid, and heavy only when we react to them. Each reaction triggers further thought, so that the thoughts become chained together in what appears to be a continuous mind-state. These thought-chains are like a relay race, where each new thought picks up the baton from the previous thought and runs with it for a moment, passing it on again to a subsequent thought. But if the meditator can maintain presence in the middle of thinking, free of grasping or rejecting, then the thought has nothing to pass the baton on to, and naturally subsides. Although this sounds simple, it is advanced practice, usually requiring much preliminary training and commitment.
"It's possible to make thought itself meditation... How do we go into that state? The moment you try to separate yourself from thought, you are dealing with a duality, a subject-object relationship. You lose the state of awareness because you reject your experience and become separate from it.... But if our awareness is in the center of thought, the thought itself dissolves... At the very beginning... stay in the thoughts. Just be there... You become the center of the thought. But there is not really any center -- the center becomes balance. There's no 'being,' no 'subject-object relationships': none of these categories exist. Yet at the same time, there is... complete openness... So we kind of crack each thought, like cracking nuts. If we can do this, any thought becomes meditation... Any moment, wherever you are, driving a car, sitting around, working, talking, any activities you have -- even if you are very disturbed emotionally, very passionate, or even if your mind has become very strong, raging, overcome with the worst possible things and you cannot control yourself, or you feel depressed... if you really go into it, there's nothing there. Whatever comes up becomes your meditation. Even if you become extremely tense, if you go into your thought and your awareness comes alive, that moment can be more powerful than working a long time in meditation practice.
My experience of the above even while typing and thinking is that it's like the thought bubble fills in the gap of a lack of mindfulness. That's why it's hard to do because it's about maintaining it all the time but at the same time not blowing tons of energy with noting or fabricated concentration. Thinking while mindful feels so different than thinking without mindfulness.
So this connects the noters and non-noters with the same prescription to be present to all phenomena. As soon as the practice is objectified and attached to it's just another divide being created.
I would like to close with a few final considerations for Western students of the further reaches of contemplative awareness. From anecdotal evidence, stabilizing the pure presence of rigpa in the ongoing realization of self-liberation appears to be quite rare, even among dedicated students of Dzogchen/Mahamudra. This tradition flowered in Tibet, a far simpler and more grounded culture than ours, which also provide a social mandala, or cohesive cultural context, that supported thousands of monasteries and hermitages where meditation practice and realization could flourish. Yet even there, years of preliminary practice and solitary retreat were usually recommended as the groundwork for full nondual realization which was sometimes described as the golden roof that crowns the entire spiritual enterprise.
In the meantime if it's hard to keep being present during thoughts because of the speed of mental activity in work or other emotionally turbulent situations then proceed as follows:
The question for modern Westerners, who lack the cultural support found in traditional Asia and who often find it hard to spend years in retreat or even to complete the traditional Tibetan preliminary practise, is how to build a strong enough base on which this golden roof can rest. What kind of preliminary practices or inner work are most relevant and useful for modern people as a groundwork for nondual realization? What special conditions may be necessary to nurture and sustain nondual presence outside of retreat situations? And how can this spacious, relaxed quality of presence be integrated into everyday functioning in a speedy, complex technological society like ours, which requires such high levels of mental activity and mental abstraction?
Since unresolved psychological issues and developmental deficiencies often present major hurdles to integrating spiritual realizations into daily life, spiritual aspirants in the West may also need to engage in some degree of psychological work, as a useful adjunct to their spiritual work, and perhaps as a preliminary practice in its own right. (Welwood, 1984, 2000). Perhaps for Westerners genuine nondoing and letting-be can only be fully embodied in a healthy, integrated way once one has learned to attend to bodily feelings and grapple with one’s personal experience in a Focusing-style reflective manner.[Link] That is why it is important to understand the uses and limitations of psychological reflection, and to study its role as a stepping-stone both toward and “back” from nondual presence – as a bridge, in other words, that can begin to unlock deeper qualities of being and help to integrate them more fully into everyday life.
Since unresolved psychological issues and developmental deficiencies often present major hurdles to integrating spiritual realizations into daily life, spiritual aspirants in the West may also need to engage in some degree of psychological work, as a useful adjunct to their spiritual work, and perhaps as a preliminary practice in its own right. (Welwood, 1984, 2000). Perhaps for Westerners genuine nondoing and letting-be can only be fully embodied in a healthy, integrated way once one has learned to attend to bodily feelings and grapple with one’s personal experience in a Focusing-style reflective manner.[Link] That is why it is important to understand the uses and limitations of psychological reflection, and to study its role as a stepping-stone both toward and “back” from nondual presence – as a bridge, in other words, that can begin to unlock deeper qualities of being and help to integrate them more fully into everyday life.
Yet cognitive therapy will still have a sense of separation so one should keep going in the practice while not avoiding responsibilities:
While psychotherapy and meditation both led to a freeing of mental and emotional fixations, the meditative approach struck me as the more profound and compelling of the two, because it was more direct, more radical, more faithful to the essential nature of awareness as an open presence intrinsically free of grasping, strategizing, and the subject-object split altogether. At the same time, the reflective dialogical process of psychotherapy provided a more effective and accessible way to work on the issues, concerns, and problems of personal and worldly life – which meditators often tend to avoid dealing with. Yet I had doubts about the ultimate merits of an approach that did not address, and was not designed to overcome, the subject-object struggle that lay at the root of most human alienation and suffering.
And I can stay present in all this typing. I don't have to "own" the knowledge. The confidence comes from doing which is similar to the jhana factors in dealing with laziness & doubt.
Okay so I tried the new approach to let go of the past thoughts, future thoughts and even the present projections in a 2 hour meditation. I felt very good after this. Whatever negative mood I was in vanished. By squeezing myself down to the present moment as close as I could the mental formations were very jumpy and obvious to note. The jhanas didn't really appear and could barely start but that was okay. The concentration was enormous anyways. I could see how my mind was quickly (and quietly) moving into subtle thoughts on progress and analysis along with the usual interruptions. My eyes were open and some of my senses like vision and hearing were very clear. Any ear worms (which I get lots) vanished during this practice. To expand on the practice I started noting the aggregates I understand and I did this at a much slower pace. Just allowing the commentary to be there and to remind myself that the thoughts aren't a "me" which removes the stickiness of clinging.
With Tommy's suggestion I'll look into dependent origination in further detail and Greg Goode's Direct Path user guide which looks really meaty.
With Tommy's suggestion I'll look into dependent origination in further detail and Greg Goode's Direct Path user guide which looks really meaty.
I haven't been doing much meditation recently. I have lots of projects on the go. Reading The Direct Path by Greg Goode just keeps pointing back to the same consciousness that knows the senses and thinking. The clinging is going away more naturally. Watching Cloud Atlas just hammered in the point of interdependence and conceptual barriers but a movie only goes to the surface. Just the questioning of enlightenment and most phenomenal questions lead to that they are known. This creates a sense of wanting to abandon the questions (clinging).
Okay my practice is still refining. I find when I lose mindfulness it's not just the lack of letting go but also the lack of concentration and metta. I've separated them for too long. When I meld the three together like under the Vimalaramsi method it can seem to include great anger and other dark emotions and flip it on it's head. I don't feel guilt when there's anger. I just let go because there is always some task that needs to be done. It's so practical it should be used constantly. When clinging just pay attention to emptiness and the let go. After that one should concentrate on a task and if there is enough relief one should smile and develop some basic metta. I'm so thankful. I still use the Gendlin Focusing method here and there when I feel there's a some procrastination going on. The subtle bits of clinging are so deep. They are like brain imprints that are waiting to manifest when mindfulness and concentration end.
I still use the Gendlin Focusing method here and there when I feel there's a some procrastination going on. The subtle bits of clinging are so deep. They are like brain imprints that are waiting to manifest when mindfulness and concentration end.
Well I've changed from what I was like only a few months ago. I've just tried a basic concentration practice and found it easy to follow the instructions but I can't seem to get beyond the 1st jhana and even when that happens it's very light and my chest feels yucky and irritated. My arms can feel this way as well. With mindfulness I find that I just don't need jhanas and this means any attempt at classical cessation will have to be let go of since it needs deep samadhi to fade the senses. Even this 1st jhana I cultivated today, the left overs of this is slightly unpleasant and even remind me of when I loved the 4th jhana but could tell that I wasn't benefiting from it as much as I should have. It feels like the opposite of letting go. I just want to let go further and make it the only practice. I just want to sit there and do nothing.
Yet paradoxally I feel better than I have before. Even when dealing with difficult people and their judgmentalness I can tolerate it better than before. My presence sometimes softens their stance when I just take the instructions or corrections and just get on with the work. I sometimes feel like giving up on work but I just let that thought go and by the end of the day I feel totally different as my learning at work continues. Much of my improvement comes from disidentifying from any experience as a self and letting go to the point where the zooming in of my craving and aversion functions retreats back into my skull like a turtle back into it's shell. It's like I'm getting on with the day but brow is relaxed and there's no object to leap towards. This allows me to create more dispassion that I can continue to develop. I still have some food cravings that I indulge in but when I'm sitting in the restaurant I feel like "what the fuck I'm I doing here? Enough already! All you can eat is stupid!"
My experience is telling me "fuck cessation" and "direct path all the way baby!"
I guess if I keep declinging from all experiences as "self" that's all that matters. Even questions like HAIETMOBA and "Who am I?" felt overly compounded sometime ago. Real concentration to me feels like thoughts have to be allowed in and any manipulation or solidfying is terrible. I'm also enjoying having normal sleep without jhana after affects keeping me awake.
I don't know if anyone has gone through this and feels this is bad practice or good practice. I would appreciate some feedback.
Yet paradoxally I feel better than I have before. Even when dealing with difficult people and their judgmentalness I can tolerate it better than before. My presence sometimes softens their stance when I just take the instructions or corrections and just get on with the work. I sometimes feel like giving up on work but I just let that thought go and by the end of the day I feel totally different as my learning at work continues.
Much of my improvement comes from disidentifying from any experience as a self and letting go to the point where the zooming in of my craving and aversion functions retreats back into my skull like a turtle back into it's shell. It's like I'm getting on with the day but brow is relaxed and there's no object to leap towards. This allows me to create more dispassion that I can continue to develop. I still have some food cravings that I indulge in but when I'm sitting in the restaurant I feel like "what the fuck I'm I doing here? Enough already! All you can eat is stupid!" My experience is telling me "fuck cessation" and "direct path all the way baby!"
I guess if I keep declinging from all experiences as "self" that's all that matters. Even questions like HAIETMOBA and "Who am I?" felt overly compounded sometime ago. Real concentration to me feels like thoughts have to be allowed in and any manipulation or solidfying is terrible. I'm also enjoying having normal sleep without jhana after affects keeping me awake.
I don't know if anyone has gone through this and feels this is bad practice or good practice. I would appreciate some feedback.
With a little help from The Direct Path from Greg Goode (Mind chapter) I got back to the "I AM" stage but this time it's more of a habit and less disassociative. It feels really good. I just basically brought the answers to the HAIETMOBA and "Who am I?" questions back but I didn't ask them. I just move to the answers. Throughout the day I found myself wanting to listen to people more and dig into the details without craving or aversion. The elation wasn't as big as in the past because it feels more normal and even more restful and nonchalant. I'm going to have to dig into this and keep being in my body and senses and letting go as the days go on. There's of course a tendency to attribute consciousness (the thing that stuff happens to that you can't detect :grin as a big self and I want to avoid pushing expectations on the "Self" to make arisings better. Choices/attention/mindstates are all known to the consciousness.
as a big self and I want to avoid pushing expectations on the "Self" to make arisings better. Choices/attention/mindstates are all known to the consciousness.
Currently facing the above fear and I had some dreams (I don't get them too often) that include being on small thin flat plateaus jutting out of a mountain and seeing some of them crumble killing some friends (faceless non-entities). Then the dream turned to my teeth reverting to before they were straightened.
Dream moods - places
Thanks dreams...for stating the obvious.
Dream moods - places
To dream that you are standing at the edge of a cliff, indicates that you have reached an increased level of understanding, new awareness, and a fresh point of view. You have reached a critical point in your life and are afraid of losing control. Alternatively, it suggests that you are pondering a life-altering decision.
To dream that you or someone falls off a cliff, suggests that you are going through some difficult times and are afraid of what is ahead for you. You fear that you may not be up for the challenge or that you cannot meet the expectations of others.
To dream that you or someone falls off a cliff, suggests that you are going through some difficult times and are afraid of what is ahead for you. You fear that you may not be up for the challenge or that you cannot meet the expectations of others.
To dream that your teeth has fallen out and you try to refit them back into the mouth signifies a lack of self-confidence and embarrassment. You are afraid that others will know of your short-comings. If you acted calmly in your dream, then it may point to how can make the best out of any situation. You are able to rise above unfavorable circumstances.
Thanks dreams...for stating the obvious.
I'm starting to clear up my sense of "I". Ironically with Dzogchen practice, the subtlety of awareness makes it easier to drop it quickly, but has now tempted me with renewed noting practice. Nick's post on the Khemaka Sutta is just what I need. With letting the sense of self arise and pass away I was still looking for no-self (which doesn't make any sense) and manipulating my experience to suss out insight. By using the basic noting "urge", "aversion", "desire" I could start breaking down what feels like the self. What surprised me was that some of the feelings of self often didn't have a self involved. For example I would see a person flashed in a mental projection and it wasn't me or anyone I knew. Other times it was obviously vedana related things like desire or aversion. Sometimes that desire or aversion would be covered up by quick mental stories, scenarios and especially rehearsing to protect the self in future conversations that might never happen. By zeroing in on the self and breaking it down I could see that sweeping around like spotlight with intention on finding a self that vibrates has it's downside. The mere search or intention to pay attention could solidify a self due to aversion or desire related to insight outcomes. By doing this practice I could tell I still needed concentration because it took quite a bit to keep at it and the third eye pressure would come up again. I was probably going up the nanas but without that interest I had in the past. In truth I feel better than I did when I was playing with equanimity of formations and thought it was so fantastic.
By also reading some more of Strength to Awaken by Rob McNamara and his insight into how the ego wants to keep you in the comfort zone I can now see how to break that. By finding something aversive (exercise:grin I can keep the noting from the meditation session and bring it out during the day. Basically if the ego doesn't want to do something but you are noting anything that feels like a self and you let the desire or aversion pass away on it's own the relief is enough for you to get on the wagon again as long as you are paying attention to details of what's going on. During exercise you just keep attention on the details of the burn and pain like an interested scientist as opposed to an ego that just wants comfort. I remember what exercise used to be with lots of highs and crashes with pride falling. It ruins the experience yet if I tune into exercise as it is and less as a goal oriented thing where I imagine a fitter self in futuristic projections, the mental stress is far less.
By also reading some more of Strength to Awaken by Rob McNamara and his insight into how the ego wants to keep you in the comfort zone I can now see how to break that. By finding something aversive (exercise:grin
I can keep the noting from the meditation session and bring it out during the day. Basically if the ego doesn't want to do something but you are noting anything that feels like a self and you let the desire or aversion pass away on it's own the relief is enough for you to get on the wagon again as long as you are paying attention to details of what's going on. During exercise you just keep attention on the details of the burn and pain like an interested scientist as opposed to an ego that just wants comfort. I remember what exercise used to be with lots of highs and crashes with pride falling. It ruins the experience yet if I tune into exercise as it is and less as a goal oriented thing where I imagine a fitter self in futuristic projections, the mental stress is far less.
Had a good exercise this morning. The complacency stops when I stop thinking about complacency and stop thinking about results.
I have been mulling throughout the day on how dependent my consciousness is to objects and sense perceptions. It's still sinking in as I plow through my Great discourse on causation book.
I continued my meditation tonight (2 hours) and decided to merge Rigpa with noting but without labels. I guess this would be like bare attention with noting. I started hitting jhanas again (I haven't done this since last summer) and didn't feel the nausea or extreme boredom as I have recently. I shot up to the 3rd jhana with noting and slammed hard into the 4th jhana. I saw strong circular colourful objects like Christmas ornaments in front of me (pretty interesting and useless). The noting wasn't entirely consistent but it didn't stop for too long either. I never really got lost in absorption. In the 4th jhana my clarity of senses was all pervasive. Quiet mind and clear senses. This seems to be a wall for me as vibrations thin out and are hard to penetrate but I did manage to let go more than I have before. As soon as stories appeared regarding enlightenment or any neurotic analysis I started labeling again and more importantly LETTING GO! Noting to me is just more of reminding the mind "Do I KNOW what is happening now?" I started feeling better and got more out of this equanimity. Chasing desires and stories about enlightenment is annoying. LOL! What I also noted is disatisfaction with my mastery of thoughts. The thinking part of my mind doesn't seem as mastered as all other phenomena. The sense of self is still tied to thoughts and I can tell I haven't had any experiences like others have had where the self is just gone. I also need to revisit labeling different thought forms as Fella describes in my older posts. Just break it down. My next goal is to do just that when I get to equanimity. I may have to go beyond 2 hours though.
Still I'm pretty happy.
I have been mulling throughout the day on how dependent my consciousness is to objects and sense perceptions. It's still sinking in as I plow through my Great discourse on causation book.
I continued my meditation tonight (2 hours) and decided to merge Rigpa with noting but without labels. I guess this would be like bare attention with noting. I started hitting jhanas again (I haven't done this since last summer) and didn't feel the nausea or extreme boredom as I have recently. I shot up to the 3rd jhana with noting and slammed hard into the 4th jhana. I saw strong circular colourful objects like Christmas ornaments in front of me (pretty interesting and useless)
. The noting wasn't entirely consistent but it didn't stop for too long either. I never really got lost in absorption. In the 4th jhana my clarity of senses was all pervasive. Quiet mind and clear senses. This seems to be a wall for me as vibrations thin out and are hard to penetrate but I did manage to let go more than I have before. As soon as stories appeared regarding enlightenment or any neurotic analysis I started labeling again and more importantly LETTING GO! Noting to me is just more of reminding the mind "Do I KNOW what is happening now?" I started feeling better and got more out of this equanimity. Chasing desires and stories about enlightenment is annoying. LOL! What I also noted is disatisfaction with my mastery of thoughts. The thinking part of my mind doesn't seem as mastered as all other phenomena. The sense of self is still tied to thoughts and I can tell I haven't had any experiences like others have had where the self is just gone. I also need to revisit labeling different thought forms as Fella describes in my older posts. Just break it down. My next goal is to do just that when I get to equanimity. I may have to go beyond 2 hours though.Still I'm pretty happy.
I only managed 2 hours again this sit. I focused on thought formations and also the sense of "I" as it manifested. I was probably in the 2nd jhana most of the sit but the clarity was good. I remembered earlier posts from Tommy M and a talk by Andrea Fella in this thread and just noted how the thoughts appeared and the sense of "I". The sense of "I" seems to appear only when lost in stories and especially about likes and dislikes. The fact that all this happens and is known by consciousness means there can't be two selves (consciousness and thinking). The feeling of separation is the difficult knot to untie because I think it's based on not letting go enough. Clinging seems to be the sense of self, therefore this clinging is repeatedly going on even when I don't think it is. Treating it like just another sensation is something I'll have to continually work on all day to make it sink in. "One sensation cannot sense another". Taking a shower this morning I was annoyed with mental stories and I just let go and took in all the details of the water on my skin and sounds and still keep letting go. Now I know why this sense of self feels permanent. It's because in weak concentration it keeps coming back like a bad horror movie ending. 
Throughout the day I'm feeling good even when I normally should be frustrated (work related). By depersonalizing reactive thoughts it's like I'm "doing" even less. When I get caught up in thoughts and then turn to it as a sensation and watch it pass away it's like not-self.
I agree with Jake. Live life fully engaged.
When I get caught up in thoughts and then turn to it as a sensation and watch it pass away it's like not-self. I agree with Jake. Live life fully engaged.
Finished Analayo's Direct Path to Realization. (Thanks Ian!) This book was helpful in pointing out the 7 factors of awakening with good descriptions. I found that joy was something I wasn't getting into as much. It was more about letting hindrances go but these factors are a lot like jhana factors as follows:
Mindfulness leading to investigation leading to energy leading to joy leading to relaxation leading to concentration leading to equanimity. The joy is in noting when hindrances aren't there. The concentration helps to keep them at bay and calm the mind. It was also interesting in that the Buddha mentions these factors as to why people can forget well remembered information and remember other information with less effort.
The investigation is of the 5 aggregates: Matter, cognition, feeling, volition, consciousness.
With practice in daily life I can feel how manipulated volition is by pleasant and unpleasant sensations so I can definitely understand that aggregate as not self. Cognition needs to be tested by observation to avoid misinterpretation. It happens quickly after the memory is used to compare experiences so it can label objects. It's definitely more about experience and habit than a "me". Matter is obvious to me. Feeling is definitely out of control for me if it's based on external objects I can't control. Internally the mind throws all kinds of thoughts that create unwanted feeling (no self again). The difficulty for me is consciousness. I know that consciouness relies on an object but other than knocking myself out with cessation I'm not sure what a direct path version of experiencing impermanace of consciousness would be. Do I have to get into the ring with a boxer and get beaten unconscious?
My recent practice was pretty intense. I quickly moved up and down jhanas 1 to 4 and felt the letting go more deeply but also in a more violating way (probably a good sign). I had the dream of going towards a suffocating void. Hahahah! Resistance.
Mindfulness leading to investigation leading to energy leading to joy leading to relaxation leading to concentration leading to equanimity. The joy is in noting when hindrances aren't there. The concentration helps to keep them at bay and calm the mind. It was also interesting in that the Buddha mentions these factors as to why people can forget well remembered information and remember other information with less effort.
The investigation is of the 5 aggregates: Matter, cognition, feeling, volition, consciousness.
With practice in daily life I can feel how manipulated volition is by pleasant and unpleasant sensations so I can definitely understand that aggregate as not self. Cognition needs to be tested by observation to avoid misinterpretation. It happens quickly after the memory is used to compare experiences so it can label objects. It's definitely more about experience and habit than a "me". Matter is obvious to me. Feeling is definitely out of control for me if it's based on external objects I can't control. Internally the mind throws all kinds of thoughts that create unwanted feeling (no self again). The difficulty for me is consciousness. I know that consciouness relies on an object but other than knocking myself out with cessation I'm not sure what a direct path version of experiencing impermanace of consciousness would be. Do I have to get into the ring with a boxer and get beaten unconscious?
My recent practice was pretty intense. I quickly moved up and down jhanas 1 to 4 and felt the letting go more deeply but also in a more violating way (probably a good sign). I had the dream of going towards a suffocating void. Hahahah! Resistance.
Yesterday morning on the bus I kept thinking about consciousness and it made sense to me to see what is "mine" in consciousness and what is "mine" in senses and of course they just work on their own. Some more relief came just from attention to what can't be controlled with senses and consciousness. There was also a slight move to let go of senses when I did this but just briefly, kind of like a dry heave.
1 hour meditation yesterday: I made a resolution to do as little as possible and to not even "let go" as Daniel would say in MCTB. The letting go happens on it's own, just get out of the way. Whatever emotions (positive or negative) I would just watch arise and pass away and it was like everything was just happening on it's own and it didn't matter what arose. Such a relief. The thought sensations that created any emotion just came and went like waves and any normal blocking of these experiences with analysis was not used so the experience was smooth instead of bumpy.
God it seems so good but it seems so far from being like this all the time.
1 hour meditation yesterday: I made a resolution to do as little as possible and to not even "let go" as Daniel would say in MCTB. The letting go happens on it's own, just get out of the way. Whatever emotions (positive or negative) I would just watch arise and pass away and it was like everything was just happening on it's own and it didn't matter what arose. Such a relief. The thought sensations that created any emotion just came and went like waves and any normal blocking of these experiences with analysis was not used so the experience was smooth instead of bumpy.
God it seems so good but it seems so far from being like this all the time.
1 1/2 hour meditation: Really sticking with the same practice as last time. Just see things as they are and when daydreams start just note them and watch them go and continue looking at the 3 Cs. This was a more painful result and I relaxed my facial muscles as the 3rd eye was getting too tight. I noticed that whenever any big problem arose in my mind to interfere with the concentration the mind went through dissatisfaction. It's pretty clear when thinking about likes and dislikes that there's nothing that I can obsessively think about and get permanent satisfaction. Nothing satisfies permanently. Mental arguments (even good ones) can leave an annoying residue in the mind. It's important to look at core values and to pick your battles. There was definitely some more dark night symptoms, though I've seen them before and they pose less of a problem than they did the first time. I was mainly looking at the changes in the visual field with eyes closed and noticing hearing at the same time (this is getting easier) and I would ask the question when an obsessive thought arose: Is this going to permanently make me happy? Of course NO is the answer and the thought would drop and I was back paying attention to the senses. It's almost like the senses are irritating white noise to the clinging aspect of mind but when that aspect is let go of there is peace. I would crack a smile when that happened.
Towards the end of the practice I started looking more at the aggregates (especially consciousness) and really trying to find a self in any of it. I can start to see the mind imputing a self onto vision yet vision by itself is just vision. I can see how this practice is helpful in that when you don't find a self it's a little bit of a realization but at the same time fleeting so repetition is necessary. My next practice will be to look for self in 5 aggregates with more detail.
1. Is this aggregate a self?
2. Does the self own this aggregate?
3. Is this aggregate inside a self?
4. Is the self inside the aggregate?
5 aggregates x 4 types of attachments = 20 forms of attachment (no wonder it's so hard).
Towards the end of the practice I started looking more at the aggregates (especially consciousness) and really trying to find a self in any of it. I can start to see the mind imputing a self onto vision yet vision by itself is just vision. I can see how this practice is helpful in that when you don't find a self it's a little bit of a realization but at the same time fleeting so repetition is necessary. My next practice will be to look for self in 5 aggregates with more detail.
1. Is this aggregate a self?
2. Does the self own this aggregate?
3. Is this aggregate inside a self?
4. Is the self inside the aggregate?
5 aggregates x 4 types of attachments = 20 forms of attachment (no wonder it's so hard).
Continued this morning with investigation of aggregates. I looked at consciousness. It is definitely in need objects to be conscious of. By looking at all my senses I asked:
1. Is this aggregate a self?
2. Does the self own this aggregate?
3. Is this aggregate inside a self?
4. Is the self inside the aggregate?
The only answer I get is sensing. No self. The result of that is it plunges you right into the senses and going up jhanas seemed faster. Because consciousness is intertwined with perception it's easier to see how nama-rupa is dependent on consciousness and consciousness needs something to be conscious about. This is really reminiscent of Heidgger's "Being-in-the-world" concept (except hundreds of years before him ).
Being-in-the-world
Unfortunately there are some hindrances with other aggregates so I'll look into those next.
1. Is this aggregate a self?
2. Does the self own this aggregate?
3. Is this aggregate inside a self?
4. Is the self inside the aggregate?
The only answer I get is sensing. No self. The result of that is it plunges you right into the senses and going up jhanas seemed faster. Because consciousness is intertwined with perception it's easier to see how nama-rupa is dependent on consciousness and consciousness needs something to be conscious about. This is really reminiscent of Heidgger's "Being-in-the-world" concept (except hundreds of years before him
).Being-in-the-world
Being-in-the-world is Heidegger's replacement for terms such as subject, object, consciousness, and world. For him, the split of things into subject/object, as we find in the Western tradition and even in our language, must be overcome, as is indicated by the root structure of Husserl and Brentano's concept of intentionality, i.e., that all consciousness is consciousness of something, that there is no consciousness, as such, cut off from an object (be it the matter of a thought, or of a perception). Nor are there objects without some consciousness beholding or being involved with them.
At the most basic level of being-in-the-world, Heidegger notes that there is always a mood, a mood that "assails us" in our unreflecting devotion to the world. A mood comes neither from the "outside" nor from the "inside," but arises from being-in-the-world. One may turn away from a mood, but that is only to another mood; it is part of our facticity. Only with a mood are we permitted to encounter things in the world. Dasein (a co-term for being-in-the-world) has an openness to the world that is constituted by the attunement of a mood or state of mind. As such, Dasein is a "thrown" "projection" (geworfen Entwurf), projecting itself onto the possibilities that lie before it or may be hidden, and interpreting and understanding the world in terms of possibilities. Such projecting has nothing to do with comporting oneself toward a plan that has been thought out. It is not a plan, since Dasein has, as Dasein, already projected itself. Dasein always understands itself in terms of possibilities. As projecting, the understanding of Dasein is its possibilities as possibilities. One can take up the possibilities of "The They" self and merely follow along or make some more authentic understanding. (See Hubert Dreyfus' book Being-in-the-World.)
At the most basic level of being-in-the-world, Heidegger notes that there is always a mood, a mood that "assails us" in our unreflecting devotion to the world. A mood comes neither from the "outside" nor from the "inside," but arises from being-in-the-world. One may turn away from a mood, but that is only to another mood; it is part of our facticity.
Only with a mood are we permitted to encounter things in the world. Dasein (a co-term for being-in-the-world) has an openness to the world that is constituted by the attunement of a mood or state of mind. As such, Dasein is a "thrown" "projection" (geworfen Entwurf), projecting itself onto the possibilities that lie before it or may be hidden, and interpreting and understanding the world in terms of possibilities. Such projecting has nothing to do with comporting oneself toward a plan that has been thought out. It is not a plan, since Dasein has, as Dasein, already projected itself. Dasein always understands itself in terms of possibilities. As projecting, the understanding of Dasein is its possibilities as possibilities. One can take up the possibilities of "The They" self and merely follow along or make some more authentic understanding. (See Hubert Dreyfus' book Being-in-the-World.)Unfortunately there are some hindrances with other aggregates so I'll look into those next.
I was going through dukkha nanas (probably desire for deliverance) all this morning. Really shitty. It affected my work and memory and it felt like nothing satisfies. By the end of the day I felt better, go figure (anicca). I continued looking at thoughts and again the answer is shimmering senses and thoughts that naturally lose centre stage. On a more personal note I find that sexual stimulation is more like a choice now and much easier to control. Some women at work are SO enticing and until recently it was easy to get caught up in sexual papanca (mental proliferation). It was a perfect example of craving tying consciousness and object together. I walk past this woman and she's got PERFECT skin! Beautiful raven hair! My neck turned instantly like I discovered a long thought extinct species. She looked at me like this has happened to her 50 times a day. You just let go and get on with your life. It's pretty simple. If you think about something enjoyable or something fearful both craving and aversion increase intensity. I think what did it for me was disatisfaction in the lack of thinking about a more wholesome (I don't know if it's a good word) form of love. Just simply noting lust with total acceptance that it's there can prevent it from escalating. Also some of the really attractive women are so attuned to their attractiveness that their conceit ruins it. Attractive people don't have to be nice and are often imbeciles so all they have to do is say something totally stupid or politically correct to shatter the illusion. Also the fear of letting go of sexual arousal and turning impotent is just superstition. All I have to do is think....and it's back.
Whoops there goes the mental clarity.
You just let go and get on with your life. It's pretty simple. If you think about something enjoyable or something fearful both craving and aversion increase intensity. I think what did it for me was disatisfaction in the lack of thinking about a more wholesome (I don't know if it's a good word) form of love. Just simply noting lust with total acceptance that it's there can prevent it from escalating. Also some of the really attractive women are so attuned to their attractiveness that their conceit ruins it. Attractive people don't have to be nice and are often imbeciles so all they have to do is say something totally stupid or politically correct to shatter the illusion. Also the fear of letting go of sexual arousal and turning impotent is just superstition. All I have to do is think....and it's back. Whoops there goes the mental clarity.
I tried noting while listening to some exquisite classical music (Bach Gamba Sonatas - Casals) and the experience was extremely relaxing. When the mind wants to wander onto different topics the consistent noting keeps you on track. I haven't fallen in love with noting like I am now. Every note needs a dose of acceptance of what is to really soften negative mindstates. Noting while talking about the practice in my mind or just thinking about practice is like a reinforcement that demolishes doubt.
Every note needs a dose of acceptance of what is to really soften negative mindstates. Noting while talking about the practice in my mind or just thinking about practice is like a reinforcement that demolishes doubt.
Ian And:
Richard Zen:
I just notice stress and start looking at what perception caused it. It's like diffusing a bomb before it goes off. Very cool.
Very cool, indeed! Way to go, Richard.
Richard Zen:
Because I'm looking at perception/recognition I'm seeing stress start up and I'm able to let go of it before it gets full blown.
Are you able to see how your affective response (vedana) plays a part in helping you to recognize the stress? Especially if it is unpleasant vedana. If so, then you're seeing more and more of the mental process (dependent co-arising).
Yes vedena is something I didn't see too well before because of how fast it is. It's REALLY fast! In the past it would be feeling tone and then action right away.
Willpower was dominated by feeling tone. What I found with noting is that my willpower is heavily affected by feeling tone, however I realized that accepting the feeling tone with noting I can see it pass away. I knew I was starting to get somewhere when I could do the same thing with lust. It feels more like a choice. I could also note disatisfaction with practice or just about anything. I understand now what Shinzen Young was talking about when he says to let go when there's stress but knowing that perception colours feeling tone and how perception is also heavily affected by memories of past experiences I can look at the reductionist and simplistic labeling of perception and how narrow it is.What I felt today was a different kind of freedom. It was like I was getting closer to being "done" like the meditation may seem too ritualistic and isn't needed as much but I want to just use this freedom to act in a more conscious way, if that makes any sense. Lightness and normality at the same time is what I didn't expect. The speed bumps are when the perception goes off but now I actually KNOW what's happening.
It's not just something to let go of but something to understand. I sometimes laugh when a speed bump happens. Even when I write this there is some tension to grasp at the practice but it's just another perception that can be seen.I'll just keep looking at the aggregates and steady myself kind of like walking a tight rope wire. "Oh here comes some more stress. What perception happened before it?" I think noting feeling tone more consistently is the next step. Noting thoughts and treating them like sensations was very helpful.
Richard Zen:
Yes vedena is something I didn't see too well before because of how fast it is. It's REALLY fast! In the past it would be feeling tone and then action right away. Willpower was dominated by feeling tone. What I found with noting is that my willpower is heavily affected by feeling tone, however I realized that accepting the feeling tone with noting I can see it pass away.
I think noting feeling tone more consistently is the next step. Noting thoughts and treating them like sensations was very helpful.
Willpower was dominated by feeling tone. What I found with noting is that my willpower is heavily affected by feeling tone, however I realized that accepting the feeling tone with noting I can see it pass away. I think noting feeling tone more consistently is the next step. Noting thoughts and treating them like sensations was very helpful.
That's my practice nowadays. Noting only body sensations for the first 10-15 minutes, and the switch to note feeling-tones only, while noticing the body sensations and thoughts. By noting endlessly feeling-tones, not only I see body sensations and thoughts arise and pass away, but also triggering (pre) jhana. I noticed aversion whenever I feel solidity of body sensations or stream of thoughts. My mind wants a break! (The thing I don't get is that this is like the opposite of steadiness of jhanas). And when noting attraction to the body sensation, I noticed unpleasant sensations at the periphery.
Pablo . P:
Richard Zen:
Yes vedena is something I didn't see too well before because of how fast it is. It's REALLY fast! In the past it would be feeling tone and then action right away. Willpower was dominated by feeling tone. What I found with noting is that my willpower is heavily affected by feeling tone, however I realized that accepting the feeling tone with noting I can see it pass away.
I think noting feeling tone more consistently is the next step. Noting thoughts and treating them like sensations was very helpful.
Willpower was dominated by feeling tone. What I found with noting is that my willpower is heavily affected by feeling tone, however I realized that accepting the feeling tone with noting I can see it pass away. I think noting feeling tone more consistently is the next step. Noting thoughts and treating them like sensations was very helpful.
That's my practice nowadays. Noting only body sensations for the first 10-15 minutes, and the switch to note feeling-tones only, while noticing the body sensations and thoughts. By noting endlessly feeling-tones, not only I see body sensations and thoughts arise and pass away, but also triggering (pre) jhana. I noticed aversion whenever I feel solidity of body sensations or stream of thoughts. My mind wants a break! (The thing I don't get is that this is like the opposite of steadiness of jhanas). And when noting attraction to the body sensation, I noticed unpleasant sensations at the periphery.
I think feeling tone will be a tough nut to crack. How do you get disenchanted with pleasant and painful feeling tones? More withdrawal symptoms on the horizon I'm sure.
Richard Zen:
I think feeling tone will be a tough nut to crack. How do you get disenchanted with pleasant and painful feeling tones? More withdrawal symptoms on the horizon I'm sure.
Quick answer: you cannot get disenchanted pointing at them BUT you do get disenchanted by pairs (feeling-tones + body sensations, or feeling-tones + thoughts) or triplets (feeling-tones + body sensations + thoughts). Those two drag the feeling-tone away, its a co-dependent arising & passing.
Later today I'll try to explain in a one or two paragraphs the method I "discovered".
Richard Zen:
To be perfectly honest I'm still enjoying paying attention to sanna which has recently improved my standard of living to the point of mass gratitude. It's like equanimity without meditation. That Boisvert book is highly recommended. As Ian And points out it's vedana (especially negative vedana) that pushes you to bad sanna (recognition) then obsessive thoughts (papanca). Like Boisvert says recognition recognizes details of an object like color or other properties but it also recognizes "this is worth craving", and "this is worth hating". LOL! Looking at the 3 Cs to correct distorted or reductionist recognition is just that and you can't rush the dispassion because it comes eventually. His description of panna is similar to how the Dalai Lama queries perception. He wants you to see if you noticed what is unpleasant in what is superficially pleasant and what is pleasant in what is superfcially unpleasant. It's seems simple but it's hard because we avoid doing this to our favorite things.
I'm probably going to keep it simple for now but yes the co-dependent arising of things will probably become more apparent as I go along since there always is a feeling tone happening at all times.
I'm probably going to keep it simple for now but yes the co-dependent arising of things will probably become more apparent as I go along since there always is a feeling tone happening at all times.
Hey, thanks for your thoughtful response. I read a few pages of the Boisvert book, hopefully I'll have more time to read it when my move to another flat ends. I can relate my practice with what you wrote above. It's hard to know between superficial and deep layers of (un)-pleasantness. It's probably like tension in the jhanas progression. So far, I can only explore pleasantness in unpleasantness in the same level: center vs periphery.
Hopefully that helps! The stress or tension you feel in the body or skull is based on clinging/thinking about likes or dislikes. It's hard to see because people are so conditioned to be used to it that when they get the different levels of relief from meditation practice it's like discovering a new planet because they've never experienced it before. Concentration states relive tension up to a point and vipassana (when done properly) can relive tension even further.
Before starting with Mahasi Noting, I did 6 months of Bhante Vimalaramsi's 6Rs and Metta practice. I noticed the tension at the skull linked to thoughts, and found some relief of tensions. Nevertheless, this method with minimal pointers is not for me. I already come from a Taoist background were there's minimal references, and I hate it. Instead, the Four Foundation Noting I'm doing right know, let me easily be aware of the 3Cs and their co-dependence.
EDIT: Oh BTW if you want to note mind states a good experiment is to note moods throughout the day.
Yes, that's what I need to add!
Also, I'm planning to do 10' noting rounds of body sensations, feeling-tones and thoughts in my daily activities.
Pablo . P:
Before starting with Mahasi Noting, I did 6 months of Bhante Vimalaramsi's 6Rs and Metta practice. I noticed the tension at the skull linked to thoughts, and found some relief of tensions. Nevertheless, this method with minimal pointers is not for me. I already come from a Taoist background were there's minimal references, and I hate it. Instead, the Four Foundation Noting I'm doing right know, let me easily be aware of the 3Cs and their co-dependence.
Then you know the suffering characteristic. If you're not attached to any aggregate while you're practicing then you're okay. That's why meditation when you're in daily life helps because a lot of the time you're okay when you sit and meditate but during life when you get hit with attachment and pain it's because we are on automatic pilot off the cushion. Practicing during daily life (especially during challenging times) can be like a radar for when suffering is likely to happen. As I pointed out before, noting moods during the day helps a lot but after awhile you want to see that perception/recognition before the mood even starts.
If you look at my earlier part of the thread I mixed it up with HAIETMOBA/Rigpa/Shikatanza to relieve the mechanical noting I was doing before because striving for concentration states or any state was just another form of pain I was ignoring. I came back to noting after that and started up concentration again because I wasn't addicted to it anymore so it could support me instead of being a false refuge. The period of just sitting non-dual with what was happening was still noting but without too much labelling covering up the actual experience. That's why I like the instruction make sure that what is looked at is really looked at and comprehended before I label it. Noting can be very mechanical. Sticking to the 4 foundations of mindfulness/3 characteristics/5 aggregates/7 factors of awakening should be sufficient, I hope! LOL!
Ha Ha! I hope so!! I'll read your early reports, it's interesting what you say because things are not straight forward, there are many things to be address before one can jump to stream-entry. And yes, noting can be mechanical sometimes, or even disturbing when done out-loud (my voice do like ripples in the body or are felt like harsh), so I have to periodically change how sensations are noted and which should I focus on.
Best!
I'll read your early reports, it's interesting what you say because things are not straight forward, there are many things to be address before one can jump to stream-entry. And yes, noting can be mechanical sometimes, or even disturbing when done out-loud (my voice do like ripples in the body or are felt like harsh), so I have to periodically change how sensations are noted and which should I focus on. Best!
More feeling tone meditation 3 hours: Noted any discomfort in body and thoughts. Noted pleasant thoughts and sensations. Suffering disappears on its own as expected but understanding the perceptions that rest on feeling tone helps to keep the pleasant tones from running away with thoughts and the same for unpleasant thoughts. Watching feeling tones arise and pass away on their own without interruption is really important. Willpower is heavily affected by feeling tone when you're clinging to any of it. A good reminder that really illustrates no-self and the three characteristics:
Everything is an experience including meditation and thinking about meditation or thinking about anything or doing anything or craving anything or wanting to change anything on ad infinitum is just more ephemeral experiences.
Consistently reminding myself of this really hits home in an uncomfortable way. There is no self. It's as clear as it could possibly be. No self is not a thing it's the absence of finding something permanent let alone a permanent self. The search itself is empty of permanence and attachment to the search hurts as bad as any attachment. There is no searcher. It's just searching. Feeling a little discombobulated. Anatta is unsettling and freeing at the same time.
Questions for myself: "When I'm asking a question is it a questioner?" (Most likely it's anxiety.)
"Can I stop searching now?""Can I stop chasing my tail?" (Waves white flag)
I don't feel like doing anything, which means I'm not clinging.
Everything is an experience including meditation and thinking about meditation or thinking about anything or doing anything or craving anything or wanting to change anything on ad infinitum is just more ephemeral experiences.
Consistently reminding myself of this really hits home in an uncomfortable way. There is no self. It's as clear as it could possibly be. No self is not a thing it's the absence of finding something permanent let alone a permanent self. The search itself is empty of permanence and attachment to the search hurts as bad as any attachment. There is no searcher. It's just searching. Feeling a little discombobulated. Anatta is unsettling and freeing at the same time.
Questions for myself: "When I'm asking a question is it a questioner?" (Most likely it's anxiety.)
"Can I stop searching now?""Can I stop chasing my tail?" (Waves white flag)
I don't feel like doing anything, which means I'm not clinging.
Ian And:
Hi Richard,
Yet, who knows if the Mahanidana Sutta was an accurate portrayal of Gotama's instruction, or whether the compilers took some liberty and inserted the standard formula for jhana thinking, "Well, this is probably what the Buddha meant to say." Or whether it was inserted for ease of memorization's sake. (For clarification here, I'm just speculating about that comment, so don't take it too seriously.)
What I do know from my own direct experience is that even though I had attained the eight and then the ninth level of dhyana, that that wasn't necessarily the basis for the realization moments I experienced outside of meditation practice. Yes, I had accomplished all that, but it was during my reading and contemplation of Katukurunde Nanananda's book Concept and Reality that I experience some really useful breakthroughs. Realizations that helped me personally to see things that I had not seen before about how the mind works. In the end, that is really all a person can ask for of the teaching, in whatever manner it manifests itself.
What I was mainly referring to with regard to the reference to dependent co-arising was following the middle eight factors in one's experience of the twelve factored paticca samuppada in regard to any experience you may have. That means: consciousness makes > contact with one of the > six sense bases > and recognizes name and form > conditioning volitional formations > from which feeling arises > giving rise to craving > and clinging. Seeing the last four factors in this series provides one with the opportunity to develop dispassion toward them. Does that make any sense to you?
I can access 4 jhanas but have never attained the immaterial jhanas. I'm a householder and have too many responsibilities to have long retreats so I do the next best which is meditating at home and daily mindfulness.
In your opinion should I cultivate all 8 jhanas and develop dispassion for them or is that not really necessary? I just need to cultivate dispassion for all five aggregates? Yet consciousness to be seen impermanent from understanding it's leaning on objects may need strong concentration to fade the senses enough so consciousness stops briefly (stream-entry?)?
My opinion (which may change; but as it stands right now...) is that what is very helpful, if not outright necessary, is at least the first four dhyanas and a good insight practice, whether or not that insight happens during meditation or outside of meditation (as in my case). On the other hand, what I gained from having experienced sanna-vedayita nirodha (or the cessation of perception and feeling) was the direct realization that the processes of mind really can be shut completely down. It was kind of a corroboration all its own. Although it was not a state that I wanted to enter very often. In other words, I didn't develop any clinging to it.
I somewhat agree with Ajahn Chah in the following quotation, which obviously is saying that developing the 8 dhyanas is not necessary for awakening. And to that extent, he may be correct. However, after awakening occurs, there is the problem of maintaining it through mindfulness, which dhyana attainment can help assist and condition the mind in cultivating an ongoing state of mindfulness.
Yet, who knows if the Mahanidana Sutta was an accurate portrayal of Gotama's instruction, or whether the compilers took some liberty and inserted the standard formula for jhana thinking, "Well, this is probably what the Buddha meant to say." Or whether it was inserted for ease of memorization's sake. (For clarification here, I'm just speculating about that comment, so don't take it too seriously.)
What I do know from my own direct experience is that even though I had attained the eight and then the ninth level of dhyana, that that wasn't necessarily the basis for the realization moments I experienced outside of meditation practice. Yes, I had accomplished all that, but it was during my reading and contemplation of Katukurunde Nanananda's book Concept and Reality that I experience some really useful breakthroughs. Realizations that helped me personally to see things that I had not seen before about how the mind works. In the end, that is really all a person can ask for of the teaching, in whatever manner it manifests itself.
What I was mainly referring to with regard to the reference to dependent co-arising was following the middle eight factors in one's experience of the twelve factored paticca samuppada in regard to any experience you may have. That means: consciousness makes > contact with one of the > six sense bases > and recognizes name and form > conditioning volitional formations > from which feeling arises > giving rise to craving > and clinging. Seeing the last four factors in this series provides one with the opportunity to develop dispassion toward them. Does that make any sense to you?
Richard Zen:
I can access 4 jhanas but have never attained the immaterial jhanas. I'm a householder and have too many responsibilities to have long retreats so I do the next best which is meditating at home and daily mindfulness.
In your opinion should I cultivate all 8 jhanas and develop dispassion for them or is that not really necessary? I just need to cultivate dispassion for all five aggregates? Yet consciousness to be seen impermanent from understanding it's leaning on objects may need strong concentration to fade the senses enough so consciousness stops briefly (stream-entry?)?
My opinion (which may change; but as it stands right now...) is that what is very helpful, if not outright necessary, is at least the first four dhyanas and a good insight practice, whether or not that insight happens during meditation or outside of meditation (as in my case). On the other hand, what I gained from having experienced sanna-vedayita nirodha (or the cessation of perception and feeling) was the direct realization that the processes of mind really can be shut completely down. It was kind of a corroboration all its own. Although it was not a state that I wanted to enter very often. In other words, I didn't develop any clinging to it.
I somewhat agree with Ajahn Chah in the following quotation, which obviously is saying that developing the 8 dhyanas is not necessary for awakening. And to that extent, he may be correct. However, after awakening occurs, there is the problem of maintaining it through mindfulness, which dhyana attainment can help assist and condition the mind in cultivating an ongoing state of mindfulness.
"The renowned meditation master, Achaan Chah, was asked during a Questions and Answers Session: 'Is it necessary to be able to enter Absorption in our practice?'
"The Master replied: 'No, Absorption is not necessary. You must establish a modicum of tranquillity and one pointedness of mind. Then use this to examine yourself. Nothing special is needed. If Absorption comes in your practice this is OK. Just don't hold onto it. Some people get hung up with Absorption. It can be great fun to play with. You must know proper limits. If you are wise then you will know the uses and limitations of Absorption, just as you know the limitations of children versus grown men."
"The Master replied: 'No, Absorption is not necessary. You must establish a modicum of tranquillity and one pointedness of mind. Then use this to examine yourself. Nothing special is needed. If Absorption comes in your practice this is OK. Just don't hold onto it. Some people get hung up with Absorption. It can be great fun to play with. You must know proper limits. If you are wise then you will know the uses and limitations of Absorption, just as you know the limitations of children versus grown men."
Yes I want to read concept and reality next since your book recommendations do help. It's nice to know that dependent origination is what a person needs to see and dispassion from consistent investigation. I've seen so many posts from people where they talk about how they are able to disembed from "space" and are able to note everything it can be hard to understand at times yet this idea of being disenchanted from ALL the jhanas is the direction so many choose because they find it less painful. Though I know you're point of view on that.
Certainly looking at sanna versus panna gave me the same flavour of equanimity without a concentration state. I look at things as just more experiences now. The 1st jhana feels that way now. Just another ho-hum experience.I'll continue with the investigation of vedana in daily life (because you can get a lot of hours out of the day just for that) and add some concentration to my practice to help with consistent mindfulness (which is the crux of the problem).
One question. When you put consciousness leading to volitional formations, what you mean is that you can't have volitional formations without consciousness? This is to mean that craving and clinging affect volitional formations but you're trying to point out what leans on what?
BTW that's cool you could let go of vedana in that way but I can understand how you may not want to get into that state because from what I read in Boisvert's book is that it's death like and not awakening.
Yes that is very clear. I'm going to focus on vedana on unpleasant sensations in particular. It's been good in the past when doing work outs. It's painful but it's not permanently solid.
I'm also reading Concept and Reality. There are similarities between papanca and mindstates. Strong papanca leads to moods. I recently did a meditation where I just noted papanca and when I let go of it I note FREE to make it even more obvious to my brain.
I'm also reading Concept and Reality. There are similarities between papanca and mindstates. Strong papanca leads to moods. I recently did a meditation where I just noted papanca and when I let go of it I note FREE
to make it even more obvious to my brain.
I've just finished reading Psycho-Cybernetics and it is definitely going to be my "focus on the positive" practice. The key to it is that desire is often based on what you imagine and dwell on in your mind. If you dwell on successful actions and positive actions (especially in great detail) the desire will propel you along and over time those actions will develop into new habits. Thinking about the negative aspects of responsibilities will only force you to use willpower to achieve goals but if positive details are dwelled upon in the mind until the desire takes over then willpower isn't needed.
Eg. If you're shopping for something you want it doesn't take willpower to buy it (even if the weather is inclimate or there are other obstacles) but if you need to do some responsibility that has unpleasant elements dwelling on the positive results will make you tolerate a lot more the obstacles to your goal because you're not dwelling on the negative aspects. It may be cold outside when taking out the garbage but if I dwell on the pleasant results of a cleaner smelling home and more space and keep dwelling on it at some point I'll get off my seat and start taking out the trash.
When you add years of meditation the desire is not something that has to be clung to as permanent and it's energy that can be used.
With vedana practice I can see the need to be disenchanted with it. There's a pleasant relief of letting go of typical habits (come home from work and watch TV or surf the net). Then when you pay attention to annoying things but look at the pleasant parts in the main ("It will be nice when the taxes are done") there's no need to note things and let go you just like the results of responsibilities being taken care of being put behind you.
I'm also starting to notice my mind wanting to withdraw more and "do nothing" in an even deeper way than my typical Shikatanza practice. Combining both practices is making life much better and clearing out any repression of normal desires.
Eg. If you're shopping for something you want it doesn't take willpower to buy it (even if the weather is inclimate or there are other obstacles) but if you need to do some responsibility that has unpleasant elements dwelling on the positive results will make you tolerate a lot more the obstacles to your goal because you're not dwelling on the negative aspects. It may be cold outside when taking out the garbage but if I dwell on the pleasant results of a cleaner smelling home and more space and keep dwelling on it at some point I'll get off my seat and start taking out the trash.
When you add years of meditation the desire is not something that has to be clung to as permanent and it's energy that can be used.
With vedana practice I can see the need to be disenchanted with it. There's a pleasant relief of letting go of typical habits (come home from work and watch TV or surf the net). Then when you pay attention to annoying things but look at the pleasant parts in the main ("It will be nice when the taxes are done") there's no need to note things and let go you just like the results of responsibilities being taken care of being put behind you.
I'm also starting to notice my mind wanting to withdraw more and "do nothing" in an even deeper way than my typical Shikatanza practice. Combining both practices is making life much better and clearing out any repression of normal desires.
Emptiness as viewless view
I don't know if this above quote applies but I find it helpful explaining how I feel. Any success the mind gets into by just awareness the thinking mind wants to co-opt and yet when it does the little bit of stress starts up again so letting go of attaching and clinging to meditative attainments is what has recently allowed me to go a little farther. With the acceptance of the mind getting lost in thoughts it becomes clearer how the mental volitions arrive after the perception of what I would like to have or get rid of. It's weird and insightful seeing a part of "me" appear only as mental habits. Free will (as I've known it) is starting to unravel
"Oh Wow got it! The system itself causes the separation and in moving out of the system we see our true nature."
Yes! It is very subtle, like a magical spell. Infact 'ignorance' is also a form of knowing; a very very deep and conditioned form of relative knowing. The subject-object way of seeing things is not the only way, it is just a convenient way but has since then become ultimate. When we are not completely out of the subtle influences, it is advisable to have firm establishment of the right view of dependent origination (a non-dual and non-local view) and practice with this new 'awaken eye of immediacy'. When the non-dual and non-local direct experience dawn, the emptiness view will dissolve itself. It too is a raft.
Never underestimate the subtlety of these tendencies. They are so strong and subtle that even the antidote introduced can turn around and becomes the virus!
Yes! It is very subtle, like a magical spell. Infact 'ignorance' is also a form of knowing; a very very deep and conditioned form of relative knowing. The subject-object way of seeing things is not the only way, it is just a convenient way but has since then become ultimate. When we are not completely out of the subtle influences, it is advisable to have firm establishment of the right view of dependent origination (a non-dual and non-local view) and practice with this new 'awaken eye of immediacy'. When the non-dual and non-local direct experience dawn, the emptiness view will dissolve itself. It too is a raft.
Never underestimate the subtlety of these tendencies. They are so strong and subtle that even the antidote introduced can turn around and becomes the virus!
I don't know if this above quote applies but I find it helpful explaining how I feel. Any success the mind gets into by just awareness the thinking mind wants to co-opt and yet when it does the little bit of stress starts up again so letting go of attaching and clinging to meditative attainments is what has recently allowed me to go a little farther. With the acceptance of the mind getting lost in thoughts it becomes clearer how the mental volitions arrive after the perception of what I would like to have or get rid of. It's weird and insightful seeing a part of "me" appear only as mental habits. Free will (as I've known it) is starting to unravel
Basically how it looks is when your mind gets caught up on a like or especially dislikes it feels like a thought form of a self, plus the related emotions. Then a disassociative self (often developed in meditation) appears to "let go" of those thoughts but then creates new thoughts to cling to about the thoughts that were let go of and then letting go of this by just not adding to it leaves you in a river of sensation where it should be easier to make different choices than you normally would make. The first "self" is more intense because of a longer time to develop those habits and the second "self" comes from beginner meditation practice. Just let the bubbles burst on their own.
and then letting go of this by just not adding to it leaves you in a river of sensation where it should be easier to make different choices than you normally would make. The first "self" is more intense because of a longer time to develop those habits and the second "self" comes from beginner meditation practice. Just let the bubbles burst on their own.