Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

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Brian K., modified 9 Years ago.

Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 142 Join Date: 4/18/12 Recent Posts
Just wondering, seems very plausible and valid, I would one day like to be able to bring about jhana while playing guitar emoticon
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Brian K.:
Just wondering, seems very plausible and valid, I would one day like to be able to bring about jhana while playing guitar emoticon


The 'paths' as talked around here at the DhO and in MCTB most often than not lead to easy access to jhanic territory due to the brain changes. Will of mind stuff, meaning whenever and wherever one wishes to direct the mind towards jhanic factors, to fabricate the factors of each jhana, one can do so.

Nick
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Brian K.:
Just wondering, seems very plausible and valid, I would one day like to be able to bring about jhana while playing guitar emoticon


The 'paths' as talked around here at the DhO and in MCTB most often than not lead to easy access to jhanic territory due to the brain changes. Will of mind stuff, meaning whenever and wherever one wishes to direct the mind towards jhanic factors, to fabricate the factors of each jhana, one can do so.


Fabricating the factors becomes easier with practice, but stopping the fabrication of non-factors is much harder.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.031.than.html:
"Monks, there are these nine step-by-step stoppings. Which nine?

"When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thoughts & evaluations [verbal fabrications] have been stopped. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has been stopped. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breaths [bodily fabrications] have been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has been stopped. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perceptions & feelings [mental fabrications] have been stopped.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
End in Sight:
Nikolai .:
Brian K.:
Just wondering, seems very plausible and valid, I would one day like to be able to bring about jhana while playing guitar emoticon


The 'paths' as talked around here at the DhO and in MCTB most often than not lead to easy access to jhanic territory due to the brain changes. Will of mind stuff, meaning whenever and wherever one wishes to direct the mind towards jhanic factors, to fabricate the factors of each jhana, one can do so.


Fabricating the factors becomes easier with practice, but stopping the fabrication of non-factors is much harder.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.031.than.html:
"Monks, there are these nine step-by-step stoppings. Which nine?

"When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thoughts & evaluations [verbal fabrications] have been stopped. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has been stopped. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breaths [bodily fabrications] have been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has been stopped. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perceptions & feelings [mental fabrications] have been stopped.


Not if one sees the causes of such arisings. Once seen again and again over and over then their cessation is simply what results from seeing how they arise in real time in my experience. A pliant and malleable mind can drop those fabrications quite quickly if one has the mind trained to do so. Seeing how the mind fabricates mental overlays to sit on top of the phenomena of of the mind/body organism with extra mental overlays (thus giving shape to 'things' and 'objects' of consciousness), simply just paying attention to this process as it occurs, was enough to see it drop away in my own experience. As not seeing it occuring was fueling its continuance.

So if one finds they are able to fabricate the jhana factors but finds other 'hindering' factors arising along with them, simply pay attention to the 'objects' that are not the jhana factors. An 'object' may be soemthing that occured in one's life, it could be vedana, it could be soemthing seen, heard, felt, thought, something desired, something pulling the mind here and there. The mind has given shape to a mental 'object'. Pay attention to the 'object' and realise it is of one's own creation. Pay attention with this recognition in mind again and again. See how such an 'object' mind made, fashioned by one's own mind, is not permanent, it moves and shifts about , morphs and arises and passes seemingly without help from 'you', and more than not 'objects' of consciousness are pushing and pulling the mind here and there and that is what sucks about it.

See how the 'object' pulling the mind here and there is mind made. It is fashioned by one's own consciosuness. If one sees this again and again, the power to 'fashion' or 'not fashion' returns back to one's own innate intelligence and wisdom factulties of the mind. You will then be able to make a choice; to fashion and fabricate the 'objects' or simply cease their fabrication. Once practicing like so, dispassion for such a fashioning process leads to starving it of its fuel and it eventually will not take much more than this split second recognition for it as it arises for it to lose all 'shape' and drop away. Eventually, it may cease for good. In doing such a practice, jhanas may become what they are advertised seemingly as being in that sutta quote in my experience.

Nick

Edited a few times for flow
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
I would one day like to be able to bring about jhana while playing guitar

Here's something fun to try with this idea, it's something I've used for a few years to keep time while recording guitar parts[1]: If you're playing the guitar, let the body do what it does and see that you don't need to think about it. While that's happening, tune into the whole "in the hearing, just the heard" thing and just notice the kaleidoscope of sounds, the timbre of the chords, the vibration apparent as it hits your ear, just basically tuning into what's already there. In my experience, access concentration is immediate (but that's probably more to do with previous practice) and it's really easy to find yourself in 2nd jhana very quickly due to the effortlessness and the natural pleasure of playing an instrument.

[1] If you're using a click-track to record, look at how the sound of the metronome is experienced in exactly the same 'place' as the sound of the guitar. It's easy to experience them both at the same time which makes it much easier to keep time 'cause they're being perceived simultaneously.
C C C, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Brian K.:
Just wondering, seems very plausible and valid, I would one day like to be able to bring about jhana while playing guitar emoticon


It's very important to remember that pleasure and fun are good things. Don't aim to achieve jhana while playing. How can you aim for pleasure?? It's impossible! It's like meeting a girl and saying to yourself, "ok so tonight I'm going to go for a blow job".

Instead you live as a natural healthy (non-buddhist) person would. As you play, you focus on whatever aspect of the playing draws your attention most easily. You don't do this by figuring it out. Pleasure seeking is the brain's natural behaviour; just get out of its way and let it function, maybe with a bit of guidance. It might be the feel of your fingers flying around between strings and frets, or the way the chords sound, or whatever...

If you're a good natural, pleasure will lead you into new realms. Don't aim for anything. Don't be a robot. Buddhist-robots are the worst type. Don't let buddhist rules suck the life out of you.
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Brian K., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 142 Join Date: 4/18/12 Recent Posts
I just think the focused attention available would be of huge benefit is all, i love playing music either way, i just thought it was a cool concept and possibly extremely beneficial to my playing !
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Luke Avedon, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 14 Join Date: 6/26/11 Recent Posts
Aren't the Jhana states absorption states, therefore by definition, you couldn't be doing anything else when you are in them?
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Brian K., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 142 Join Date: 4/18/12 Recent Posts
but if u are sitting in meditation say, focusing on ur breath, ur doing SOMETHING... if i were to focus on something else, couldn't the results be the same? Depending on what is being focused on
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Luke Avedon:
Aren't the Jhana states absorption states, therefore by definition, you couldn't be doing anything else when you are in them?


ab·sorb (b-sôrb, -zôrb)
tr.v. ab·sorbed, ab·sorb·ing, ab·sorbs
1. To take (something) in through or as through pores or interstices.
2. To occupy the full attention, interest, or time of; engross. See Synonyms at monopolize.
3. To retain (radiation or sound, for example) wholly, without reflection or transmission.
4. To take in; assimilate: immigrants who were absorbed into the social mainstream.
5. To learn; acquire: "Matisse absorbed the lesson and added to it a new language of color" (Peter Plagen).
6. To receive (an impulse) without echo or recoil: a fabric that absorbs sound; a bumper that absorbs impact.
7. To assume or pay for (a cost or costs).
8. To endure; accommodate: couldn't absorb the additional hardships.
9. To use up; consume: The project has absorbed all of our department's resources.

Get to 1st or 2nd or perhaps 3rd 'path' as talked of around here and in MCTB and one may see how easy it can become to access the jhanas. The level of absorption may differ from sitting compared to walking around. Here we are perhaps though talking about the vipassana jhanas related to certain nanas rather than deep trance-like samadhi jhana.

Access the nanas long enough, cultivate the mental 'handles' for each and it wont take but a thought to direct the mind to fabricate the jhana's factors too. Others will disagree, but perhaps they haven't had the brain changes discussed in MCTB as 'path'. Also what needs to be 'absorbed'? And what does 'absorption' really mean? How 'absorbed' does one need to be to fabricate the factors of each jhana? In the beginning, and perhaps without the brain changes that result in will of mind access, perhaps kasina or anapana inspired 'absorption' is helpful. The hindrances need to be temporarily subdued somehow.

In the experience of many post-what is called 'path' here, it's will of mind stuff for a number of them. And when it's will of mind stuff, jhana doesn't need to be no-one-can-wake-me-from-this-trance 'absorption', though that can happen if there is no intention to use jhana for insight.

Imagine being able to follow the instructions in the link below eventually without the need to sit? If your mind says it is impossible, it will be impossible. Mindset. Though 'path' as talked of at the DhO and MCTB will change your brain so that will of mind access may present. Perhaps that should be the objective first?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.028.than.html

Nick
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fivebells ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
This can happen, but it is not a good context for cultivating access to jhanas. Particularly playing music, which will bring to mind all sorts of emotion and identity issues.
C C C, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
fivebells .:
This can happen, but it is not a good context for cultivating access to jhanas. Particularly playing music, which will bring to mind all sorts of emotion and identity issues.


This makes no sense. Absorption into jhana is all about accessing the deeper layers of mind, the realm of archetypes, devils and angels, childhood memories, Elephant gods with a hundred arms, and so on. And this is where emotions and identity are in full swing. That's the whole idea. Music is the perfect method.
C C C, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Jhana = trance state, hypnotic state. Both have levels of absorption.

The writings of Milton Erickson and Anton Mesmer match up perfectly with those of advanced jhana practitioners.
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S. Pro, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 86 Join Date: 2/7/10 Recent Posts
Knowing both Jhana and Trance/Hypnosis I disagree (I´ve never read Milton or Erickson though):

Hypnosis includes absorbtion in thoughts/mental imagery where as in Jhana thoughts are mostly absent. Inducing hypnosis is done by concentrating just as in Jhana. The level needed for hypnosis is by far lower than that needed for Jhana, it does not even come close to access concentration. Also, Jhana factors like piti-sukha are absent in hypnosis.

Just my personal experience...in
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N A, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 157 Join Date: 7/10/11 Recent Posts
I wonder what does the usual "in the zone" description correspond to in Buddhist terminology. If accessing jhana while playing music is possible at all, then you can be sure that professional musicians do it all the time.
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Nick Myers, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 54 Join Date: 12/9/11 Recent Posts
N A:
I wonder what does the usual "in the zone" description correspond to in Buddhist terminology. If accessing jhana while playing music is possible at all, then you can be sure that professional musicians do it all the time.



The in the zone thing seems more of an unconscious version of access concentration and not jhana. But i could be wrong.
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Dodge E Knees, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 9/25/11 Recent Posts
N A:
If accessing jhana while playing music is possible at all, then you can be sure that professional musicians do it all the time.


I've never been a pro muso, but was semi for a while, ie just about scraping a living together from music while doing odd jobs on the side, but I distinctly remember getting into what I now know was a concentration state, years before I got into meditation.

I'd just started learning the 5 string banjo and was trying to learn a particularly tricky Earl Scruggs lick. With the unfamiliar finger picks, weird tuning and tab...eyes, left hand, right hand; I had to concentrate really hard, working the same phrase over and over to try to build the muscle memory. I distinctly remember raising my head and feeling like I had to really pull myself out of an altered state and realised I hadn't been conscious of my surroundings or my body for however long it was. Whoa, dude was about the only comment I could muster!

This happened to a much lesser extent a few other times while playing music, but I recognised it pretty quick after I started doing meditation.

I think if pro musos get into these sort of states it is most likely during repetitious practice. I can't imagine slipping into it during a gig, or when improvising, there's too much going on, you have to respond to the other players and react to what's happening.

Strangely I now have access to jhana at will, but it never even occurred to me to try it while playing. Then again, family, work, dharma....I don't have much time for that any more emoticon
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N A, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 157 Join Date: 7/10/11 Recent Posts
Dodge E Knees:
I think if pro musos get into these sort of states it is most likely during repetitious practice. I can't imagine slipping into it during a gig, or when improvising, there's too much going on, you have to respond to the other players and react to what's happening.

Not all musicians improvise or play with other people. I was thinking of classical pianists for example.

Obligatory Glenn Gould video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RjebdVKIAM. You can be sure he's not distracted by anything. He's focusing on the music to an extent that's probably impossible for any ordinary human.
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Dodge E Knees, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Anyone able to get into jhana while doing random things?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 9/25/11 Recent Posts
Good point! If you're a pro playing a rehearsed piece by yourself I would say it's very likely you would get into some concentration state or other.

I hearby withdraw my previous statement!

edit: just to be pedantic though, I suppose it may not technically be jhana unless the factors, piti, sukka etc are present.

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