Science & Consciousness

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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/12/24 5:45 AM
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Science & Consciousness

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Based on a recent convo in my log I thought it would be cool to create a space for sharing some science meets consciousness type stuff, podcasts, articles, books, etc...

There are a number of scientific rabbit holes I've been stumbling down that all seem to be pointing to revelations similar to what one might understand through insight meditation. It's suprising to me how regularly some of these scientists seem to be talking around the same topics me and close friends or even many of us might discuss.

I'll update here whenever I find new stuff and may also summarize the links that were recently posted on my log. Please feel free to post anything you find that interests you in these areas. It can be fringe as long as it's fringe science. 

Here's something that popped up today...
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 The Physicist Who Says Time Doesn't Exist
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 12/12/24 6:25 AM
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RE: Science & Consciousness

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So was Newton an Arhant? emoticon
Eric Abrahamsen, modified 1 Month ago at 12/12/24 11:29 AM
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RE: Science & Consciousness

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I'll bite! I read a book recently that struck me as very Buddhist in spirit: it's called Mathematica, by David Bessis, and it's basically a combination of mathematician's memoir, and an argument that we're teaching math all wrong, based on a misunderstanding of how mathematicians actually do math. It was a very annoying book in many ways (one of those books that could have been a solid 30,000 word essay) but it has changed my approach to math, and educating my daughter, and really to learning in general, so I guess I can't complain, I got my money's worth.

His basic argument is that math isn't conducted the way we imagine, as a series of constrained manipulations of rigid logical structures. That's how mathematics books are written, but not how math is actually done. Actual math is done as a series of creative intuitive leaps based on mental models that the mathematician has built up over years of doing math. Solving most math problems involves finding the right mental model ­­— models typically consist of metaphors rooted in physical/sensory reality — and once that's been found the solution becomes more or less obvious to our intuition.

He talks about how these mental models are built up, which is where the material started to sound familiar: disconnecting the ego from any particular approach, getting the "self" out of the way, building up intuitive models based on repeated close observation of actual problems and their resolution. Recognizing that all mentals models are "wrong" in a fundamental sense, that at the most they can be useful, and that they should be worn lightly and discarded easily. All very Three Characteristics.

He specifically references meditation when talking about how these models are updated: not through rigorous logical testing, but through relevant practice, and consideration of the problem at hand, and then entering a mental state where practical observation is gently offered up to existing conceptual models, and the two are allowed to coexist side by side in the mind, and swirl around and inform one another, while we ourselves stay patiently out of the way and allow our subconscious to do its thing.

He describes several famous mathematicians (Grothendieck, Einstein, Descartes) as being rabidly interested in the discarding and updating of their mental models, and nearly egoless within that narrow realm.

There are the obligatory references to machine learning, in the sense that new data is used to update models, making them better at recognizing new kinds of patterns. I guess as a mathematician Bessis stands a better chance of employing ML metaphors in a meaningful way than your average pop-sci author, but I didn't find this all that enlightening.

But in general it was fascinating to read, and I think it's great to see a science book acknowledging the fundamentally psychological nature of the practice of science.

There's my contribution!
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 12/12/24 11:44 AM
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RE: Science & Consciousness

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I knew I'd heard his name before! He was the subject of a recent article in Quanta magazine:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/mathematical-thinking-isnt-what-you-think-it-is-20241118/

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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 12/12/24 11:56 AM
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yeah i took a lot of math and compsci in college, and if I were to explain how I think about "doing math", its a lot of like simulating A* in my head across the set {theorems, formulas from reference books, math tricks [adding 0 and /1 are classics]} with the goal what what youre trying to figure out in mind
kettu, modified 1 Month ago at 12/12/24 12:26 PM
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Eric Abrahamsen, modified 1 Month ago at 12/12/24 5:31 PM
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RE: Science & Consciousness

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Chris M
I knew I'd heard his name before! He was the subject of a recent article in Quanta magazine:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/mathematical-thinking-isnt-what-you-think-it-is-20241118/

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That's the one! And now, having read that article, you've pretty much read the book emoticon
Eric Abrahamsen, modified 1 Month ago at 12/12/24 5:39 PM
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RE: Science & Consciousness

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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate
yeah i took a lot of math and compsci in college, and if I were to explain how I think about "doing math", its a lot of like simulating A* in my head across the set {theorems, formulas from reference books, math tricks [adding 0 and /1 are classics]} with the goal what what youre trying to figure out in mind


Yup, and I think Bessis' point is that "math tricks" are not just tricks, they're actually the heart of doing math. I think he even says exactly that: a "trick" is just an intuitive mental model that is currently working for you.

Thinking about the identity function of 0 for addition/subtraction and 1 for multiplication/division is actually one of the things that got me on my current kick of math reading. That and Japanese woodworking, which is heavy on the geometry and trig.

Did you know that the graph of slope 1 is a 45° line, and that one half of the full 90° slice is obtained by the slope 0->1, and the other half of the slice is obtained by the slope 1->infinity, and therefore 0->1 is somehow equal to 1->infinity, at least when it comes to the ratios of things? I'll bet you did know that, but that's the sort of thing that's got me suspecting that someone has been holding out on me, in terms of mysteries of the universe.
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pixelcloud *, modified 1 Month ago at 12/13/24 11:28 AM
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RE: Science & Consciousness

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Lisa Feldman Barrett and the Theory of Constructed Emotion fits that bill, I think. She is the only rigorous scientist (most cited scientist in her field) that I'm aware of that uses predicitive processing frameworks (or who arrived at those) to describe how the brain creates "emotions" on the fly. Her main popular science book How Emotions Are Made is super, super interesting. Not least for making the long overdue case that the triune brain hypothesis has been refuted (!) by geneticists over 30 years ago, and psychology basically hasn't got the memo yet. The brain didn't evolve in layers, there is no limbic system/mammalian brain that houses core emotions, the amiygdalae aren't fear centers, etc. I think the meditation world could really catch up on that. Theory of Constructed Emotion makes a lot more sense and coincidentally sounds a lot like dependent origination. She goes into a lot of detail highlighting the errors made in the science of what she calls the classical view of emotion, where you have core emotions living in certain brain regions that are passively triggered and how that view of folk categories basically dominated Western psychology for decades. Hello, Jaak Panksepp... 

The theory also shines an interesting light on social reality and how it defines the frames through wich the brain builds its categorization engine. We are not born with fear circuits, for example, but basically learn a language of body sensations and social situations being labeled a certain way that the brain than uses to guess what the current situation is most like, one group of wich we in the west label fear. Turns out that is not a human universal, same as as the language instinct might be universal, but wich sounds or signs denote what boundary of object or process is not. Seems like you actually learn to see more or less shades of colours (!) depending on what categorization system you grow up in, similar to asian kids loosing the ability to differentiate r and l sounds because their language systems don't differentiate there. Seems like there are actually cultures who don't know fear, because they don't have a social category with that concoction of arousal patterns and associations, so the brains that grow up in that culture don't learn linguistic-psycho-somatic "fear words" as a way to categorize a situation, as I would put it. Wich isn't to mean they just label an essential emotion differently - because specific essential emotions don't seem to be a human universal. I think that's mindblowing and super relevant for meditation and understanding how the experience projection comes about.

I could link a number of podcasts, but I think the interesting details are really in How Emotions Are Made and should be consumed in long form. 



"But evolution has provided the human mind with the ability to create another kind of real, one that is completely dependent on human observers. From changes in air pressure, we construct sounds. From wavelengths of light, we construct colors. From baked goods, we construct cupcakes and muffins that are indistinguishable except by name (chapter 2). Just get a couple of people to agree that something is real and give it a name, and they create reality. All humans with a normally functioning brain have the potential for this little bit of magic, and we use it all the time."

"Through prediction and correction, your brain continually creates and revises your mental model of the world. It’s a huge, ongoing simulation that constructs everything you perceive while determining how you act."

"The triune brain idea is one of the most successful and widespread errors in all of science."

"Some scientists refer to the control network as an “emotion regulation” network. They assume that emotion regulation is a cognitive process that exists separately from emotion itself, say, when you’re pissed off at your boss but refrain from punching him. From the brain’s perspective, however, regulation is just categorization. When you have an experience that feels like your so-called rational side is tempering your emotional side—a mythical arrangement that you’ve learned is not respected by brain wiring—you are constructing an instance of the concept “Emotion Regulation.”"
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 12/13/24 2:00 PM
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RE: Science & Consciousness

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Interesting! She's no slouch - from Wikipedia:

Lisa Feldman Barrett is a Canadian-American psychologist. She is a University Distinguished Professor of psychology at Northeastern University, where she focuses on affective science and co-directs the Interdisciplinary Affective Science Laboratory. She has received both of the highest scientific honors in the field of psychology, the William James Fellow Award from the Association for Psychological Science for 2025, and the Award for Distinguished Scientific Contributions from the American Psychological Association for 2021. Along with James Russell, she is the founding editor-in-chief of the journal Emotion Review. Along with James Gross, she founded the Society for Affective Science.

​​​​​​​Here are links to Lisa Feldman Barrett's website and her Wikipedia page:

Lisa Feldman Barrett

LFB Wikipedia
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pixelcloud *, modified 1 Month ago at 12/13/24 2:31 PM
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RE: Science & Consciousness

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Earlier this year she presented a philosophical lecture for the first time, as the last in a series of four she gave at Bochum University in Germany. Some of her slides read "Objectivity is conditional. It's inherently relational." And "Not things. Dynamically interacting signal events." And she arrived at that through cognitive neuroscience, psychology and related fields... When I mentioned dependent origination to her after the lecture she had never heard of it and got a huge kick out the Leigh Brasington quote "There aren't any nouns, it's just that some verbs move kinda slow."

"Here's my fourth and final lecture on #philosophy and #neuroscience at Ruhr University Bochum. The title is "Relational Realism as a Framework for Studying the Mind." This material is very new and it was my first time presenting it." (from her twitter)

https://youtu.be/poQ6HwkhJfk?feature=shared
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/14/24 7:21 PM
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 Hey, so, I basically can't recommend a scientist any more than this guy. His work is well on the way to revolutionizing healthcare and will likely revolutionize our understanding of life in the process. (Teaching cancer to reintegrate with the body and return to being regular cells + a lot more)

"Collective intelligence of the body: the multiscale architecture of Selves" by Michael Levin

If you can merge his work with Holographic mind/universe in your own mind I think you basically arrive at the cutting edge of human understanding and an understanding that comports with what is revealed through advanced meditative practice. 

You can find a good intro to his work and its medical application in podcasts with Lex or Curt, usual culprits.  (Perhaps these would be more entertaining introductions, but he is generally quite entertaining, very aware that what he's discussing is totally mind blowing)

Very compelling stuff as the philosophical implications of everything he's researching are basically inescapable. It's the Biology of no-self. 
 
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pixelcloud *, modified 1 Month ago at 12/15/24 10:48 AM
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RE: Science & Consciousness

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Ooh, interesting. Gonna have to dig into his work. Thank you, Bahiya. 

And for the sake of more/better entertainment, Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett: How to Understand Emotions | Huberman Lab Podcast - YouTube
is probably a way better introduction than the video I posted above after saying I'd rather not post an introductory podcast. ;) I think that premiere lecture on Relational Realism is just so interesting for what she is trying to formulate there, but not that smooth to listen to. Really not a good representation of her as an eloquent and sharp mind that might be interesting to read long form books by. The Huberman conversation does a better job there. 

​​​​​​​She's been on Lex Fridman's podcast twice, too:
Lisa Feldman Barrett: Counterintuitive Ideas About How the Brain Works | Lex Fridman Podcast #129
Lisa Feldman Barrett: Love, Evolution, and the Human Brain | Lex Fridman Podcast #140
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 12/15/24 3:09 PM
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Thanks for all the nice links, everyone.
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 12/16/24 7:41 AM
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RE: Science & Consciousness

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Thank you very much for starting this thread Bahiya and many thanks to those who have already contributed. 

so far, mathematica was a discovery for me and I am very excited to dive into that book.

I would like to bring here someone who I find fascinating, Suzan Blackmore, a zen neuroscientist. Just to give a short example of what she says you can check this:
https://youtu.be/Mb_0dCgVnFI?si=KNk5eNEQKzASzTAN

However, I would like to point, as is my custom, that there is a lot if BS even in this area. Especially from physicists who are awed by quantum theory in particular and want to explain consciousness that way.
There are also many spiritual gurus who jump on that bandwagon. 

​​​​​​​i want to point gere that being a good physicist does not qualify someone, automatically, to talk about consciousness in a meaningful way. 
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 12/16/24 2:39 PM
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Anyone here familiar with the work of Bernardo Kastrup?
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/16/24 2:42 PM
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I have not yet engaged with Kastrups work, though I see him everywhere. 

​​​​​​​What are your thoughts? 
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pixelcloud *, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 7:11 AM
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I have tried to engange with Kastrup's work. I find it... difficult. He seems quite taken with himself and his stance, and seems, from my cursory dips into interviews, to have no idea what hardcore meditation does, and has, to my knowledge, not had a discussion with a high lever practitioner that is in the prime of his/her intellectual capacity. Wich is what I'd like to see. The dialogue with Shinzen was very disapointing to me, because Shinzen seems to not be the sharp guy he was years ago and did rather seem like an old man losing touch talking with Kastrup. Similar to the Ruben Laukkonen/Delson Armstrong Guru Viking thing. Maybe Kastrup in dialogue with Daniel Ingram would be interesting, but then again, a philosopher talking about Idealism... Hm. So far (so far, mind you), I have not seen anything there that is really all that interesting to dive into. I'd rather practice. Or listen to people that peak my interests more. 
But who knows, maybe that'll change tomorrow. 


​​​​​​​Thoughts, Todo?
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pixelcloud *, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 7:58 AM
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Postscript:

After typing the above, I looked for a Kastrup interview to check up on my prejudices and got into this one
Bernardo Kastrup on Metacognition - #1
And I gotta say, I find it very entertaining, I get a very different impression of Kastrup as a thinker and I'm quite pleased with how careful he articulates his ideas. Nice to update my perspective. 
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 11:03 AM
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I have just started reading his book "Decoding Jung's metaphysics".
I have discovered Kastrup because of my interest in Jung which I first turned to at the beginning of my quest at age seventeen, a very very long time ago. 

it will take me some time to go through it as I have a lot of other readings going on in parallel. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 7:52 PM
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More biology of no-self stuff. I'm big on this whole human experience is a decentralised network of intelligent organisms thing. 

Are we actually controlled by Mitochondria?

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pixelcloud *, modified 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 2:05 AM
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"All metacognitive experiences depend on this fundamental recognition of the subject distinct from ist experiences and therefore the subject distinct from the world."

"Underlying metacognition is self-awareness. Wich is a very broad term that I am using in a much more restricted sense right now wich is the awareness of the subject as distinct from its experiences."

Kastrup, in the podcast linked above. I think there are many people here who had the direct experience of metacognition also being anatta. Understandable that Kastrup holds that position, given how epically the western mindfulness movement failed in explaining non-duality to science and philosophy (see Kastrup's definition of mindfulness), but it limits the validity of his musings somewhat. A bit later, at around 50 minutes in, he completely looses me with his wonky definition of agency and his seemingly random boundaries as to what has agency and why. 
If you take anything away from this unfolding, it would unfold differently. The very fact that you take up space shows how integral you are. Hence you have agency. But computer chips don't have agency in that same way. Says Kastrup. The "all parts are necessary" logic is interesting, but I never heard someone make the hair raising claim that this only goes for arbitrarily bounded parts of the web. Oh boy...

I do agree with his criticism of Sam Harris, though, I think it can be applied in just the same way to Harris as a meditation teacher, where he burns the same straw men and doesn't seem to be aware of his ignorance as well: 

https://youtube.com/shorts/13xsCqQb5R0?feature=shared
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pixelcloud *, modified 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 3:34 AM
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RE: Science & Consciousness

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Kastrup responds to my criticisms of Analytic Idealism (part 1)

This is superb. Just a pleasure to listen to Kastrup lay out his views.

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