Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path - Discussion
Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Frearless Style, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:15 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:11 PM
Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 8 Join Date: 12/17/24 Recent Posts
(Cross-posting from my post on r/streamentry, where I've already answered some questions)
Dear Fellow Path Travelers:
I'm a long time lurker and beneficiary of the many exp, guidance, and discussions you have generously shared here. You (and r/streamentry) have been my Sanga through my journey and I would not have made whatever progress I've made without you. THANK YOU ALL from the bottom of my heart!
I've been going through (what I think is) integration for (what I think was) the 3rd path fruition. I'm struggling a bit, compounded by this feeling I'm close to another "breakthrough". My half-serious theory is that the Self is fighting for its dear life.
Some online posts recommend seeking direct guidance/coaching by teachers to get to the 4th. I've talked to two 4th path teachers (including Delson Armstrong, who supervised and confirmed my most recent path/fruition exps) so far and they both just told me to follow my instincts and pretty much do whatever feels right at this point. Ironically my instinct is I'm on the verge of something and I just need to "hear" the right thing. I understand intellectually I need to let go of the need to control / for enlightenment etc but have trouble actually doing it.
I could also be completely wrong on where I am on the path; though the struggle to let go of self/doership is real!
Any specific teacher recommendation would be very welcome! Thank you kindly in advance.May you all be happy and free from suffering...May you all be fully awakened soon and easily...
Dear Fellow Path Travelers:
I'm a long time lurker and beneficiary of the many exp, guidance, and discussions you have generously shared here. You (and r/streamentry) have been my Sanga through my journey and I would not have made whatever progress I've made without you. THANK YOU ALL from the bottom of my heart!
I've been going through (what I think is) integration for (what I think was) the 3rd path fruition. I'm struggling a bit, compounded by this feeling I'm close to another "breakthrough". My half-serious theory is that the Self is fighting for its dear life.

Some online posts recommend seeking direct guidance/coaching by teachers to get to the 4th. I've talked to two 4th path teachers (including Delson Armstrong, who supervised and confirmed my most recent path/fruition exps) so far and they both just told me to follow my instincts and pretty much do whatever feels right at this point. Ironically my instinct is I'm on the verge of something and I just need to "hear" the right thing. I understand intellectually I need to let go of the need to control / for enlightenment etc but have trouble actually doing it.
I could also be completely wrong on where I am on the path; though the struggle to let go of self/doership is real!
Any specific teacher recommendation would be very welcome! Thank you kindly in advance.May you all be happy and free from suffering...May you all be fully awakened soon and easily...
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:16 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:16 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 953 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Hey, just want to say "Self fighting for dear life" is very characteristic of 2nd path working towards 3rd. That sort of struggle is largely gone by 3rd.
I don't necessarily think doing whatever feels right is bad advice, I also don't know if it's good advice. I'm not sure Delson has the appropriate attainments to really help you there.
There's a few people here who could help you if you want to keep a log and I'm sure some others will recommend some teachers. Roger Thisdell is good and donations based.
I don't necessarily think doing whatever feels right is bad advice, I also don't know if it's good advice. I'm not sure Delson has the appropriate attainments to really help you there.
There's a few people here who could help you if you want to keep a log and I'm sure some others will recommend some teachers. Roger Thisdell is good and donations based.
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:22 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:22 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 953 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
What experience do you have of rebirth, six realms? Can you see this stuff happen in your phenomenological experience?
What if any experience do you have with emptiness?
What if any experience do you have with emptiness?
Frearless Style, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:47 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:46 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 8 Join Date: 12/17/24 Recent Posts
Thank you kindly, Bahiya Baby, for your thoughtful inputs, questions, and suggestion. I'll reach out to Roger.
re: 2nd vs 3rd path. I'm very open to where I am exactly on the path. Thanks for the reminder that I might be over-stating where I am!
I haven't been doing any practices or reading much about past lives, six realms, or emptiness. As far as I know I have no exp with any of these. My 3 sets of fruition insights so far all relate to DO or one or more of the Noble Truths.
re: 2nd vs 3rd path. I'm very open to where I am exactly on the path. Thanks for the reminder that I might be over-stating where I am!
I haven't been doing any practices or reading much about past lives, six realms, or emptiness. As far as I know I have no exp with any of these. My 3 sets of fruition insights so far all relate to DO or one or more of the Noble Truths.
pixelcloud *, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:53 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:49 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 49 Join Date: 10/25/24 Recent Posts
Well, hard to generalize what is gone where in the middle paths and how long the going might take. What Holecek so fittingly calls the primary contraction may also show itself clearer after 2nd. I think there is a reason the Anagami stages are often described as a long, developmental journey that for some takes years to unfold.
Anyway, check out Wystan Bryant Scott. 4th path, certified UM (Shinzen Young) teacher, total Dharma geek, quite flexible in his approach, at least that is my impression from afar, after listening to several of his Natural Awakening podcast episodes.
https://youtu.be/IlTneJzYCwg?feature=shared
I consider him far more qualified to teach than Thisdell, despite the fancy terms that seem to impress many. I have watched coaching calls that make me think 4th path alone doesn't mean one should necessarily teach. But who knows, maybe he's the perfect match.
Maybe check out Stephen Snyder, maybe his rather traditional approach and seniority vibes with you.
Anyway, check out Wystan Bryant Scott. 4th path, certified UM (Shinzen Young) teacher, total Dharma geek, quite flexible in his approach, at least that is my impression from afar, after listening to several of his Natural Awakening podcast episodes.
https://youtu.be/IlTneJzYCwg?feature=shared
I consider him far more qualified to teach than Thisdell, despite the fancy terms that seem to impress many. I have watched coaching calls that make me think 4th path alone doesn't mean one should necessarily teach. But who knows, maybe he's the perfect match.
Maybe check out Stephen Snyder, maybe his rather traditional approach and seniority vibes with you.
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:56 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:53 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 953 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
As second path matures one tends to develop an experience of birth in this moment and what birth means on a sort of phenomenological level.
For what it's worth when I got second path I had experienced much more than 3 cessations. A cessation is not always a path moment. First path reoccurred a few times before I got second. Second and first reoccurred "infinitely" before I got third.
A lot of the struggle is over at third and that struggle tends to be most obvious at 2nd.
For what it's worth when I got second path I had experienced much more than 3 cessations. A cessation is not always a path moment. First path reoccurred a few times before I got second. Second and first reoccurred "infinitely" before I got third.
A lot of the struggle is over at third and that struggle tends to be most obvious at 2nd.
pixelcloud *, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 3:08 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 2:59 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 49 Join Date: 10/25/24 Recent Posts
Here we go... Well, the question is, is there a shift to the nowness of the thing, as Ingram puts it? That seems to be the big change that the Anagami stages bring online.
Edit: When Shargrol writes "Core wounds show up late in the 4 path model" as has been my experience also, that implies that no, the struggle is not largely over after 2nd. In a way, it might only begin. But again, suffering less, noticing it more. So is that the same quality of struggle?
Ingram took 1 year to SE, and another year to 3rd, and then 6 years to 4th. If you wanna go with "the struggle is mostly over after 2nd", that's cool, but I really don't think the accounts of 3rd to 4th bear that out, even if it does happen that way for you.
And btw, what is the six realms stuff other than the self fighting for dear life in each contractile moment?
Edit: When Shargrol writes "Core wounds show up late in the 4 path model" as has been my experience also, that implies that no, the struggle is not largely over after 2nd. In a way, it might only begin. But again, suffering less, noticing it more. So is that the same quality of struggle?
Ingram took 1 year to SE, and another year to 3rd, and then 6 years to 4th. If you wanna go with "the struggle is mostly over after 2nd", that's cool, but I really don't think the accounts of 3rd to 4th bear that out, even if it does happen that way for you.
And btw, what is the six realms stuff other than the self fighting for dear life in each contractile moment?
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 3:40 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 3:21 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 953 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
I think your misrepresenting what I meant by struggle. I mean specifically the ravenous seeking after deeper attainment that can characterize the journey to third. Which is how I interpret the self fighting for dear life in OP's post.
Maybe it's just me but I didn't have any of that sort of dilemma remaining after third. Plenty other things to struggle with but the sort of chronic seeking for deeper wisdom that one can get after SE largely fell away.
It is I must point out common enough for people at third to think they're enlightened. It can be really quite a significant departure from ones previous experience.
I am not suffering or struggling in any manner that is comparable to how I was before third, that has ripened since third for sure but something very significant changed at third.
A lot of deep psychological stuff has showed up in third but experiencing that is often rather pleasant. Often very revealing. It's not defined by my struggling against it but in realizing that I was struggling and now no longer need to.
I may be biased by the ripening of my practice since then but it is certainly true that all of this selfish/neurotic and meditative stuff was a chronic problem before third and was much less so after.
Maybe it's just me but I didn't have any of that sort of dilemma remaining after third. Plenty other things to struggle with but the sort of chronic seeking for deeper wisdom that one can get after SE largely fell away.
It is I must point out common enough for people at third to think they're enlightened. It can be really quite a significant departure from ones previous experience.
I am not suffering or struggling in any manner that is comparable to how I was before third, that has ripened since third for sure but something very significant changed at third.
A lot of deep psychological stuff has showed up in third but experiencing that is often rather pleasant. Often very revealing. It's not defined by my struggling against it but in realizing that I was struggling and now no longer need to.
I may be biased by the ripening of my practice since then but it is certainly true that all of this selfish/neurotic and meditative stuff was a chronic problem before third and was much less so after.
Frearless Style, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 3:37 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 3:37 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 8 Join Date: 12/17/24 Recent Posts
Thank you for sharing that. I did not know that! I don't think I have exp'd birth in this moment. Regardless, confirming on my end that there's a lot more work to be done

Frearless Style, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 3:42 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 3:39 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 8 Join Date: 12/17/24 Recent Posts
Thank you, pixelcloud! I found their websites and will check them out. I'll take a look at the video too.
RE a shift to the nowness of the thing. I think I need to refresh that means exactly but since the last shift, there's a strong sense of okayness with the world by default and I feel like I'm meditating all the time. I also feel like I'm by default present and very aware.
RE a shift to the nowness of the thing. I think I need to refresh that means exactly but since the last shift, there's a strong sense of okayness with the world by default and I feel like I'm meditating all the time. I also feel like I'm by default present and very aware.
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 3:42 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 3:41 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 953 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Please do pop in if you ever want to discuss your practice. You are welcome here. We're grizzled and gruff in appearance but our hearts are in the right place.
Ps: I just wanted to say. Pixelcloud is an incredible name. It's right there, I love it.
Ps: I just wanted to say. Pixelcloud is an incredible name. It's right there, I love it.
Olivier S, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 4:21 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 4:21 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
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Realize that different people will have different issues and concerns come up at different stages along the way and not necessarily in the same order...
I know both Roger and Wystan personally and they are good people, they also have their own biases and view on how things should unfold and what they mean etc., much in the way I just described. I'm sure working with Wystan must be nice, but it also seems to me that at this sort of stage, practice is so personal that intuition is likely the best guidance...
Just my 2 cts
I know both Roger and Wystan personally and they are good people, they also have their own biases and view on how things should unfold and what they mean etc., much in the way I just described. I'm sure working with Wystan must be nice, but it also seems to me that at this sort of stage, practice is so personal that intuition is likely the best guidance...
Just my 2 cts
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 4:32 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 4:32 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 953 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent PostsFrearless Style, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 4:32 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 4:32 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 8 Join Date: 12/17/24 Recent Posts
(I'm assuming the "pop in" comment is directed at me)
Thank you, Bahiya Baby, for being welcoming. To be honest, I felt a bit wary before posting here given the many advanced (and unfamiliar) concepts referenced by practitioners here, so your kind message really helped
Sorry for the lack of clarity re "struggle". Yes, the struggle is related to my drive for enlightenment. The drive was greatly weakened after my 2nd personality shift. I went from driven to basically stopping my practice so the next set of personality shifts in some ways caught me by surprise. Since about a week ago, I started having the strong sense that I'm close to another breakthrough. The last two times I had this feeling, I experienced my first and third big personality shifts soon after (one immediate, and the other about 3-4 days after the start of the feeling). The "struggle" mostly refers to this sense combined with some random spikes of dukkha (nana?) that started about the same time, which let me to theorize maybe there's some subconscious struggle going on.
I want to sincerely thank you and pixelcloud both for taking your valuable time to reply to my posts. I'm very grateful for your feedback and thoughts!
Thank you, Bahiya Baby, for being welcoming. To be honest, I felt a bit wary before posting here given the many advanced (and unfamiliar) concepts referenced by practitioners here, so your kind message really helped

Sorry for the lack of clarity re "struggle". Yes, the struggle is related to my drive for enlightenment. The drive was greatly weakened after my 2nd personality shift. I went from driven to basically stopping my practice so the next set of personality shifts in some ways caught me by surprise. Since about a week ago, I started having the strong sense that I'm close to another breakthrough. The last two times I had this feeling, I experienced my first and third big personality shifts soon after (one immediate, and the other about 3-4 days after the start of the feeling). The "struggle" mostly refers to this sense combined with some random spikes of dukkha (nana?) that started about the same time, which let me to theorize maybe there's some subconscious struggle going on.
I want to sincerely thank you and pixelcloud both for taking your valuable time to reply to my posts. I'm very grateful for your feedback and thoughts!
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 4:48 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 4:47 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 953 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Yes, yes that was directed at you.
Yeah, I tend to save detailed diagnosis for people who are keeping logs.
My gut tells me that you.are in a post 1st/2nd kind of area. Obviously there's a tonne of idiosyncracies to this stuff as Olivier so wisely pointed out. What I'm pointing to about birth and pixelcloud is pointing to about primary contraction are very much a similar territory and I reckon this is the kind of stuff you are experiencing. You seem to be noticing the ultimate dilemma of the self. Which sucks but is a sign of maturing practice, so great job there.
I just want to say that the kind of struggle your describing did end for me around 3rd and wherever you're at I hope it's consoling to hear that it can end at some point.
Do consider keeping a log here or popping in to ask questions. You're welcome to ask more questions here in this thread if ever they arise.
Yeah, I tend to save detailed diagnosis for people who are keeping logs.
My gut tells me that you.are in a post 1st/2nd kind of area. Obviously there's a tonne of idiosyncracies to this stuff as Olivier so wisely pointed out. What I'm pointing to about birth and pixelcloud is pointing to about primary contraction are very much a similar territory and I reckon this is the kind of stuff you are experiencing. You seem to be noticing the ultimate dilemma of the self. Which sucks but is a sign of maturing practice, so great job there.
I just want to say that the kind of struggle your describing did end for me around 3rd and wherever you're at I hope it's consoling to hear that it can end at some point.
Do consider keeping a log here or popping in to ask questions. You're welcome to ask more questions here in this thread if ever they arise.
Frearless Style, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 5:33 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 5:33 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 8 Join Date: 12/17/24 Recent Posts
Re I might be actually 1st/2nd path instead of 3rd: That's super interesting and helpful. I'm glad and happy to hear this (for various reasons)! I'll think about the log suggestion. Thank you kindly for guiding me and others on this wonderful journey!

Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 5:42 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/17/24 5:42 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 953 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
It's totally natural, normal and healthy to make mistakes in our assessment. it's compliicated to read about, it's a whole different ball game when you're actually experiencing it and there's only so many people we can speak to who have tread this path before us. The paths are at their core, this process is, an invitation to deeper honesty, openness and humility regarding our own suffering... and that of others. Godspeed !!
Frearless Style, modified 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 2:09 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 2:09 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 8 Join Date: 12/17/24 Recent Posts
FYI I just chatted with Roger for almost an hour! He's wonderful and super helpful. Gave me a number of points including a koan, some of which felt like exactly what I needed to hear. He made the insightful pointer that I'm expecting the next breakthrough to be like the previous ones. He didn't explain more and I dunno why but just that statement disdoged something. I had massive piti waves while he was giving pointers and had to close my eyes to meditate while he was talking but he didn't take offense
Wanted to give you a quick update and thank you sincerely for recommending him. Gonna go meditate and work on the koan now!! Sending you Metta.

Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 2:14 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 2:14 PM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 953 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent PostsFrearless Style, modified 1 Month ago at 12/20/24 8:52 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/20/24 8:51 AM
RE: Seeking teacher recommendation for 3rd => 4th path
Posts: 8 Join Date: 12/17/24 Recent Posts
My Dear Dharma Friends from this post:
Just closing the loop on this. Around midnight tonight, I read a passage in a Mahayana text and immediately closed my eyes and fell into a meditative state. I watched thousands and thousands of sensations/thoughts etc over the next 20m and my mind auto-labeled them nonself in each case. I had similar exp before but not at this volume. It was interesting to watch.
The sit ended with seeing awareness/intention as non-self. Then for the next 6 hours (it's around 6am local right now) I was flooded with dharma talks in my head. I finally understand 4NT, DO, emptiness, which are all the SAME THING. I understand now how everything including awareness/intention/self is fabricated and determined and the practice is just to help us see these facts. It feels like I found the keys I'm looking for are right in my hands. It's pretty funny actually and I don't know why I didn't see it before! It's the most obvious thing ever.
I feel very energic and good right now and the sense of imminent breakthrough is now gone so I think this was what the feeling was about. So I'm all good for now! Just want to thank YOU for your kind words and encouragements and for being indulgent when I sort of claimed 3rd path. I don't really care where I am but I know I HAD to work on doership, which actually happened!I stayed sane thanks to you and was glad to see people who understand and care. It's funny I just feel very content now; when I started practicing, all I wanted was to gain wisdom (I didn't even know suffering can/will be reduced) and I feel like I gained A LOT tonight. Thank you for being part of my path, wherever it leads.
May you all be happy....May you all be free from suffering...
Just closing the loop on this. Around midnight tonight, I read a passage in a Mahayana text and immediately closed my eyes and fell into a meditative state. I watched thousands and thousands of sensations/thoughts etc over the next 20m and my mind auto-labeled them nonself in each case. I had similar exp before but not at this volume. It was interesting to watch.
The sit ended with seeing awareness/intention as non-self. Then for the next 6 hours (it's around 6am local right now) I was flooded with dharma talks in my head. I finally understand 4NT, DO, emptiness, which are all the SAME THING. I understand now how everything including awareness/intention/self is fabricated and determined and the practice is just to help us see these facts. It feels like I found the keys I'm looking for are right in my hands. It's pretty funny actually and I don't know why I didn't see it before! It's the most obvious thing ever.
I feel very energic and good right now and the sense of imminent breakthrough is now gone so I think this was what the feeling was about. So I'm all good for now! Just want to thank YOU for your kind words and encouragements and for being indulgent when I sort of claimed 3rd path. I don't really care where I am but I know I HAD to work on doership, which actually happened!I stayed sane thanks to you and was glad to see people who understand and care. It's funny I just feel very content now; when I started practicing, all I wanted was to gain wisdom (I didn't even know suffering can/will be reduced) and I feel like I gained A LOT tonight. Thank you for being part of my path, wherever it leads.
May you all be happy....May you all be free from suffering...