Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Chris M 12/18/24 2:24 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Adi Vader 12/19/24 4:54 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Bahiya Baby 12/19/24 6:08 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Papa Che Dusko 12/21/24 1:12 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Derek2 12/19/24 6:24 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology J W 12/21/24 12:32 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Noah D 12/21/24 1:33 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Jim Smith 12/22/24 12:40 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology J W 1/3/25 4:29 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Chris M 1/11/25 10:50 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Papa Che Dusko 1/11/25 5:29 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Percy Plays 1/13/25 11:42 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Ben V. 1/16/25 8:58 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Papa Che Dusko 1/17/25 4:49 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Papa Che Dusko 1/17/25 4:51 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Olivier S 1/17/25 5:48 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology shargrol 1/18/25 6:03 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 1/19/25 8:58 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Olivier S 1/18/25 1:22 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Actuality of Being 1/19/25 8:05 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Chris M 1/19/25 10:01 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology shargrol 1/20/25 5:41 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 1/20/25 2:20 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Jure K 1/20/25 6:00 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology shargrol 1/20/25 9:57 AM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Jure K 1/20/25 4:15 PM
RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology Hector L 1/20/25 10:35 AM
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 2:24 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 2:22 PM

Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 5604 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
This is a topic that asks DhO folks to reply in the form of telling your own story related to the differences and similarities between mediation (specifically insight practices) and psychology. This is something that pops up in almost everyone's practice. It's a confusing area, and we sometimes use insight practices to solve psychological problems, and vice versa. This presents a conundrum - which set of tools to use, and what kind of person to ask for help?


Here's my story:

I thought, at a certain point, that my meditation practice had provided me with all the tools necessary to address all manner of problems in my life. The honeymoon I had been experiencing after realizing a major insight was sweet, almost euphoric. I was, I thought, untouchable by any foible, emotional turmoil, external issue, or personal weakness. Nope.

​​​​​​​Something came up soon enough, a work-related issue: a big industry lawsuit had been filed for which I was made the point person for making sure the company followed the requirements of various subpoenas, stayed within the bounds of legal requirements regarding external communications, and for providing any information in the physical and digital formats requested by all the lawyers and the court. Let alone being required to testify in numerous depositions. Being the focus of the attorneys on both sides of this thing drove me into a deeply anxious, worried mode. It was constantly on my mind, and I couldn't let go of this albatross hanging around in my thoughts. I couldn't shake the resulting emotions. This stuff was overwhelming me. Making me ill. I kept thinking I was supposed to be over this shit. I'd already conquered anxiety, right?

Was this a case of my hard-won insights from meditation failing me? I desperately wanted to get out of the box I was in. But this was dredging up a long-standing personal issue that my practice hadn't addressed: fear of failure. Not just a personal failure but a very public failure that could, so I believed, ruin my career and my reputation, my life. Existential fear. Fear of failure is, of course, unsatisfactory, impermanent, and not me. I knew that deeply. So, I tried going back to my noting practice every day. I tried using the jhanas to relax out of my funk. I talked to my former meditation teacher, all to no avail. Turns out, this was a deep psychological issue that had been waiting to ambush me, resurfacing my anxiety and fear from pre-practice times - things I thought I'd overcome. Things I thought meditation has, and would, resolve! A foolish belief, that. Desperate, I tried something else.

I ended up spending time with a good therapist, which turned out to be useful in digging up some really deep, old wounds, tracing this from the dawn of (my) time into past strategies I'd created to hide my propensity to be afraid, to get others to see me as competent and courageous - and desperately do anything to prevent them from seeing me fail. But we all fail! If you can't stand to fail, deny failure. Go for constant perfection, and since that's literally impossible, you live your life with the fear that your failures will define you, reinforced by periodically falling off the cliff into more anxiety, worry, and fear. You will live a very safe but very boring life. It was psychology that brought me this particular piece of wisdom.

What are the issues that popped up in your life, post-practice, and that might help others when it happens to them. What helped you? Was it psychology, or meditation, or both?

There are no wrong answers, just stories.
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 4:54 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 4:43 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 415 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
I was formally diagnosed with depression and anxiety in 2008. I was probably undiagnosed for a full year before that because I didnt seek the assistance of a therapist/psychiatrist but tried to find solace in work, exercise, alchohol and cigarettes.

Once diagnosed from 2008 to 2016 I saw maybe 3 different psychiatrists and was treated using various different drugs. Including off label prescriptions of anti psychotics. Nothing helped me.

Sometime in 2014 I had visited a psychiatrist who was also a therapist. She was trained in multiple different modalities but specifically used a modality called REBT (Rational Emotive Behavioural Therapy). In REBT the hypothesis used is that we all have beliefs and some of those beliefs as they pertain to the self, others and world in general are irrational. "For example I am a fair minded person, the world must be fair with me". This belief would be considered irrational and its irrationality increases  with how strongly its held. REBT requires a person to examine and keep challenging all irrational beliefs as they manifest in their interactions with their own lives. As I was explained this I got pissed off by the word 'irrational'. I argued with the doc about how my beliefs werent irrational and how REBT itself was irrational. I vaguely remember leaving her clinic feeling very angry.

In 2016 after two more years I went back to her because, well .... nothing else was working. This time I actually listened to her, truly and genuinely engaged with her and understood the core concept of REBT. I felt I was cured! I didnt need any therapy any more emoticon My mind was elated ... no more depression emoticon. This lasted for a couple of days and I could then feel the dunce cap on top of my head. So then I started to seriously work with REBT. I would keep a log in an excel sheet noting significant events through out the day where I felt agitated in any way (agitation including the good kind). In my meticulously  kept excel sheet I would write about whether I detected the irrational belief as it expressed, or in hindsight, and what I did to challenge it - either on the spot or later. This gave me something to do. Some kind of sense of control. But there was no great change in sight. I just felt as if I were a knife that was trying to cut out a part of itself.

At around the time when I started doing therapy was also when I began practicing very methodically with MIDL as my course curriculum.
In maybe a few months time there was an event in meditation that was signnificant, like slap in the face significant. I was meditating in line with instructions and the instructions required me to move through various different configs of attention/awareness finally settling on the breath at the nostrils for a short while. In that period of time when attention was briefly fully engaged with the breath at the nostrils and my sense of self was firmly established at the nock end of the arrow of attention, a dog started barking out in the street. A thought formed - fuck this dog, I hate this dog, I hate all dogs everywhere. It was a meaning based thought and had no visual or verbal presentation. While that happened 'I' was very busy attending to the breath - but yet that thought and associated proto attitude formation happened. It was clear to me that it was happening to me in some way, but then it was also super clear to me that 'I' wasnt doing it. I couldnt, I was too busy doing something else!! It felt like a slap in the face - metaphorically speaking.

From that day onwards I havent held any view or any attitude close to my chest. I definitely have views and attitudes, or there are views and attitudes, but I dont take them personally. From that day onwards I know that views and attitudes - every one of them - isnt mine! I dont own them, I didnt create them, they dont own me, they dont define me.

The result in treatment of depression and anxiety was that anxiety was completely gone - that day itself. In maybe a few months time depression was gone. In REBT sessions with my doc she started sensing a relaxed openness and acceptance. She could also see the excel sheet printouts, the sincerity the ... earnestness. She asked about what had changed, I told here about my meditation practice. She was very pleased, she told me that she herself was a student of a guy called Matthieu Ricard and would attend retreats with him in some Tibetan tradition. 

Over a few months in discussion with my doctor she took me off antidepressants entirely tapering them off sharply.

Free of depression and anxiety and associated psychiatric / psychological treatment since late 2016 - after suffering for almost 9 years with no end in sight. This had nothing to do with any path moment. This is the power of Insight.

(Timeline and dates are approximate)
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 6:08 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 5:28 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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So my big dilemma was like a neurotic obsession over a falling out with a group of people I was good friends with and who meant a lot to me. I had a history of depression and suicidal ideation before that but this neurotic dilemma was really my main issue. It isn't itself a core wound, to reference the original thread, but its certainly a product of that wound existing.

I think ultimately all this egoity and reactivity is potentially a product of the core wound, that's why all this suffering stuff happens and I think that's why we think we can solve everything with meditation. Meditation strips away the layers of the self and logically that ought to include all these deep trauma constructs but it is, I think we probably all agree, messier than that in reality. 

This neurotic dilemma I had actually got more intense with first and second path, which really threw me for a loop, I thought it was gonna be gone, on top of that I was gung ho meditating 4+ hours every single day, not seeing anybody, had a chronic physio issue, I was out of my mind....and it was just a nasty, crazy life situation that got whacker and more feverish and insane until "bang" third path. It really just made my experience a fairly chill breathable, liveable thing. I can still feel the sense of relief as so much striving and struggling fell away and I definitely notice this has deepened over time, not just as a meditative attainment but as a psychological thing. Getting it genuinely seemed to resolve a lot of social problems and allowed me to gently and softly and compassionately start getting very deep into my psychological problems because I no longer avoided them as much. The way I would describe it is I was no longer at odds with myself, my experience, the world. Basically everything before this moment was a chronic struggle. 

The main difficulty of third path is that as you strip away more of the self, more and more of pain and suffering is just right here, it's really, really vulnerable, people deeply hurt my feelings regularly, everything is a test of my compassion, I fail all the fucking time and I hate that.
I am thankfully a lot less neurotic, my head is clearer, my thoughts are less intrusive, my heart is more open so dealing with the inescapable human reality is a lot easier, I don't struggle with that as much. I just ride it out, I can just be absorbed in it, I am a lot more honest about when I'm angry or being a Deva or whatever it is. I have also been able to take actions towards resolving some of the karma around this neurotic dilemma I had with the people who were involved..I couldn't of done that a few years ago, I was told insane. Weirdly resolving that karma was one of the biggest reliefs I have ever experienced, on par with a path moment. It gets more complicated because I'm pretty sure the day that happened also lined up with my deeply seeing through a fetter. 
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And that's really were things get a bit hard to sort. Can we actually divide things into this is meditative or this is psychological? It's all one hologram y'know but certainly there are times to use different techniques. 

I don't really use therapists but I do have a support network, people I talk to all the time and can speak to about anything, these are people I'm also there for in return (which is an important part of our own healing I think). In addition to this I have a toolbox full of all kinds of non Buddhist practices to aid in dealing with trauma, I did a lot of tantra and embodiment practices before I got hardcore into meditation, not to mention shadow work, journeying, energy work, walking in the woods, taking baths, putting powders in my nose, throwing up, speaking to dead people, abducting aliens, singing and play guitar, writing songs, doing a little I ching. It's a holistic process. 
I do suspect we all need a little more than just meditation, whatever shape that takes. 

​​​​​​​Worth adding, have not had depression since SE.
Derek2, modified 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 6:24 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 6:24 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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I posted this before, a long time ago. But for those of you who like stories, here it is:

https://dcame.net/marywood.html
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J W, modified 1 Month ago at 12/21/24 12:32 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/21/24 12:32 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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This is a great thread. Thanks for posting this. I'd like to tell my story and my experience with meditation/therapy  and mood disorder as soon as I get a chance to sit down and type it out properly. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 12/21/24 1:12 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/21/24 1:12 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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"have not had depression since SE." 

me neither! emoticon Maybe Chris's SE was not the "real thing"? Maybe he is still pre SE in a A&P Stage thinking "I've figured this all out!" emoticon emoticon 
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Noah D, modified 1 Month ago at 12/21/24 1:33 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/21/24 1:33 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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I only started intensive meditation after having gone through years of therapy and even medication management.  After feeling like the benefits of those treatments had plateaud, I was lucky to find the concepts of DhO and MCTB: mahasi noting, POI, paths/"shifts", off cushion practice.  I was aware of many forms of spirituality before this point since my parents were interested when I was growing up. But the idea that hobbyist meditators could practice intensively and experience lasting positive transformations that did not require ongoing maintenance was new to me.  Since then I've done eleven years of intensive buddhadharma practice with only the first few years being mahasi noting.  For me the paths of dharma and mental health have been merged from the beginning.  There is an overall set of defilements/fetters/hindrances/etc and it does not seem so easy to separate them out.  They manifest on many levels such as emotional, cognitive, perceptual, somatic, etc.  I consider mental health treatment to be an aspect of dharma insofar as the patient is working towards lasting transformation of the mind (without continuing treatment) and the realistic view (i.e. 3 characteristics, emptiness, dependent origination).  For me these are not two separate axis of development and buddhadharma is not somehow lacking or incomplete.  I think it is probably the case that some mental illnesses or personality disorders may have higher rates in modern populations and thus modern treatments may be more effective for many.  Just my story and two cents.
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Month ago at 12/22/24 12:40 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/21/24 10:57 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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I see digging up psychological issues and digging through layers of emotions hiding other emotions as part of vipassana, dependent origination, the three characteristics: watching the activity (impermanence) of the mind (thoughts, emotion, impulses, sensory experience, senses of self and noself), seeing what causes dukkha to arise, seeing how the ego is involved. This is part of what shinzen young calls "clarity". Thanissaro Bikkhu also advocates this

I also see relaxation (physical, and mental/psychological - activating the parasympathetic nervous system/ deactivating the sympathetic nervous system) as part of samatha because I see relaxation included in  in the anapanasati sutta. I think you need to cultivate relaxation if you want to have the full effects of what the Buddha taught.

One thing I don't see enough discussion of in Buddhism is a discussion of diet. For me diet has a huge influence on my mental experience. I consider it just as important as sitting meditation and practice in daily life. This is the only place I am aware of diet discussed in relation to meditation:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html

"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge. Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But when they saw me taking some solid food — some rice & porridge — they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is backsliding into abundance.


I also think the depth of awakening a person experiences is related to the depth of suffering they are subject to. The first post in this thread I think is suggestive of that. 

But I think there can be differences of opinion on what is rightly considered part of Buddhism and awakening. Some people might say any type of mental anguish can be eliminated through awakening, and others might exclude some types. In either case they might prefer different traditions for dealing with different types of suffering.
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J W, modified 1 Month ago at 1/3/25 4:29 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/3/25 4:19 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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TLDR: I’m mildly bipolar, and have benefited from both meditation and therapy.  Meditation has helped me to become more self-aware, less reactive, more able to ‘ride the wave’ of emotional ups and downs as they happen.  Therapy has helped me to evaluate the various external factors such as lifestyle and environment, family dynamics, and biological predispositions, which may contribute to increased emotional instability, and to address those factors using a variety of specific methodologies, including behavioral therapy, internal family systems, medication, and meditation.  I agree with what Noah D mentioned earlier, that meditation and therapy are not two completely separate tracks, but two tracks with significant overlap, that can work well together.


I have long suffered from insomnia and mood disorder, which was almost certainly made worse by a decade of hard partying, starting in my teenage years.  I would do extreme things and make brash life decisions that left my parents and other family members very worried.  My problems worsened during my early 20’s- I would go on manic, days long, alcohol-fueled binges, followed by periods of miserable depression.  This type of pattern continued for years, until in my late 20’s I decided to stop drinking and try to pull myself and my life together.

I first began to meditate and study Buddhism around this time, 2019 or thereabout.  Shortly thereafter, I stumbled upon Progress of Insight as described in MCTB.  Upon reading about the POI and the concept of ‘cycles’, I started to become more self-aware of my behavioral patterns, and I began to view them as part of a ‘spiritual’ cycle, one could potentially be ‘progressed through’ in a logical way and ‘transcended’.  I also began to view some of my issues as potentially pathological in nature.  

I got really into meditation, obsessed, and had many deeply insightful experiences, as well as some difficult ‘dark night’ type periods, though nothing that I felt compared to darker times that I had experienced in my younger years.  I felt that I was making wonderful progress.  Eventually I became convinced that meditation could solve all of my problems, and that I could thrive no matter how difficult the conditions.  I felt invincible.

After a couple of years, towards the latter part of the pandemic, things began to unravel.  All of my friends moved away and my social network fell apart, my relationship frequently felt like it was on the rocks, my insomnia worsened, I had a rough period with my job.  I was depressed and unstable, and as much as I didn’t want to admit it, meditation wasn’t helping.  I had hit a wall, and eventually it led me to seek a therapist.  

I had tried therapy previously on a few different occasions but had struggled to find someone I really connected with; I hadn’t found it very helpful.  But this time, I was lucky to find a therapist who was also an experienced Buddhist meditator (had gone on intense retreats, who was very familiar with buddhist philosophy and various meditative techniques, etc).  I had someone who I could talk with from both a behavioral standpoint, and a meditative/spiritual one - someone that understood the meditative context and I could talk to about strange meditation experiences.  I trusted and respected this person, and remain very grateful for that relationship, which lasted for about a year and a half, from 2021 or 2022 (?) until I moved states in 2023, where this person was no longer licensed.

The first thing this person helped me realize was that external conditions have a real impact on the internal experience, and that these external factors were mostly outside of my control unless I made a deliberate effort to put myself in an environment in which I was more comfortable. I felt isolated because I was isolated. This person pointed out that I was putting myself into situations that made things harder than they needed to be.  As it turns out, getting myself into a better, healthier and more stable situation, with a better social group, in a place where I felt like I belonged, did more for my happiness than meditation ever could have.  And I feel extremely lucky that I had the means and the privilege to make those changes.

Secondly, my therapist suggested that I might be bipolar, and that I might try an antipsychotic.  By this point, I had become more self-aware of my behavioral cycles, but still hadn’t quite put 2 and 2 together.  This suggestion was the push that I needed, and I’ve now been taking very low-dose Seroquel for about 2 and a half years, which has improved my sleep quality and mood fluctuations significantly.

I am especially grateful for this individual because our relationship was experimental, in the sense that the intersection between meditation and psychology/therapy is still an emerging field (hence this post emoticon ), it’s an integration that has not yet been fully explored and established, and in many ways is still being built from the ground up.  Our relationship was at times “teacher/student”, and other times “doctor/patient”, which are two very different roles, and switching between these two different configurations is at times awkward and not always easy.  There were a couple of times when it was a bit uncomfortable, and moreso for them than for myself.

However, I think this clunkiness is, to some extent, inevitable in emerging fields, and anywhere where the wearing of multiple hats is required.  I hope that more experts continue to go out on a limb and try on another hat, even if just for size.  It certainly helped for me.  And, it does feel that the wearing of many hats is becoming increasingly important for a variety of reasons, not just in psychology/psychiatry and meditation, but across many industries and many fields of study.  I’ve since reached out to my therapist, on a couple of occasions, to thank them and let them know how I’m doing.  If you’ve found someone who’s had a positive impact on you, please let them know.  
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Overall, though I still have a long way to go, I would say I’m a lot less crazy, (who knows, maybe 50% less?) than I was 5 or 10 years ago, I can’t say how much of that improvement was the result of meditation, or therapy, and how much of it is just ‘growing up’.  I’ve certainly spent way more time sitting in meditation than I have in therapy, but sometimes a little nudge goes a long way.

I remember my therapist at one point saying that they wished more people meditated, because therapy can only take you so far.  I think the same can be said for meditation, in most cases.  There are limits to meditation, and there are limits to therapy, and I believe that both of these practices can compliment each other to fill in the gaps of the other.
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Chris M, modified 25 Days ago at 1/11/25 10:50 AM
Created 25 Days ago at 1/11/25 10:49 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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Today's rant, after getting some terrible news about a relative:

Bad stuff is going to happen during your life. To you, to those you love, to friends, coworkers, and others you know. If you expect to be able to deal with these bad things with unfeeling numbness, good luck. Your responsibility as a relative, a friend, or an acquaintance, as a human being, is to feel. To have empathy, compassion, and love. Feel free to tell anyone who says otherwise to "fuck off." Numbness, not feeling, hiding from bad stuff, is a black hole that's, at best, only a temporary refuge. It usually leads to more bad stuff, sometimes really, really bad stuff.

Please don't practice just so you can dig holes to hide in. 

End of rant.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 25 Days ago at 1/11/25 5:29 PM
Created 25 Days ago at 1/11/25 5:29 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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Good rant!
Percy Plays, modified 23 Days ago at 1/13/25 11:42 AM
Created 23 Days ago at 1/13/25 11:42 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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very relatable
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Ben V, modified 21 Days ago at 1/16/25 8:58 AM
Created 21 Days ago at 1/16/25 8:58 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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Great topic!

I'm presently emerging from a short but intense bout of depressive states.

For me it's really more a combo of psychology and Dhamma that is helpful when I find myself in such states (which can happen once every few years for about a week, especially post-holidays in the deep Canadian Winter time).

And even when it comes to psychology, there are very different approaches that would be helpful and others not.

My own approach as a therapist is psychodynamic (strongly Jungian) and yet if I find myself depressed, I'm coming to find such approaches unhelpful for me. When experiencing an emotional crash, I find that therapies that are more ''action-oriented'', behavioral activation style, journaling my thoughts and challenging them, are more helpful to emerge from it.
Once feeling better, insight-oriented approaches are then helpful if one wants to reflect deeper on what's going on deep down.

As for the Dharma, during an emotional crash, I notice that the philosophy of it, especially talks of impermanence, dukkha and death is unhelpful. Makes me feel worst. But the actual practices of Dharma is very helpful; especially mindfuless/Awareness practices and just giving loving-presence to my environment.  Reconnecting to the state of Presence is just amazing and sometimes, just that in the past has had the effect of full recovery.

All this being said, I don't see a one size fits all formula for every psychological difficulties. One needs to search what the right formula is for oneself. Time and experience can teach one that. For me, my depressive states are very existential (about the inevitable loneliness and loss aspect of life and also about death) but overly focused on those aspects. And perhaps for that reason, I would find psychology without Dharma incredibly dry and unhelpful for me.

​​​​​​​Last thought, I've gain lots of insights on the particular type of depressive states I experience by journaling/writing. I wrote three pages that was part of what helped me feel better. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 19 Days ago at 1/17/25 4:49 PM
Created 19 Days ago at 1/17/25 4:49 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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People in Scandinavia try treat winter blues by sitting in hot sauna and then go out roll in the snow and back in the sauna and then repeat. I guess hot-cold showers can do the same! emoticon 
​​​​​​​Best wishes! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 19 Days ago at 1/17/25 4:51 PM
Created 19 Days ago at 1/17/25 4:51 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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But just to be fair to you, even though m in Scandinavia, I'm not brave enough for hot cold showers! I do the Irish way instead; first hot whiskey then cold beer, and rinse and repeat as it feels fit. emoticon 
Olivier S, modified 19 Days ago at 1/17/25 5:48 PM
Created 19 Days ago at 1/17/25 5:48 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

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 I love sauna!
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Check these out! You will love it Papa che.


Laukkanen, J. A., & Laukkanen, T. (2018). Sauna bathing and systemic inflammation. European Journal of Epidemiology33(3), 351–353. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10654-017-0335-y

Laukkanen, T., Khan, H., Zaccardi, F., & Laukkanen, J. A. (2015). Association Between Sauna Bathing and Fatal Cardiovascular and All-Cause Mortality Events. JAMA Internal Medicine175(4), 542. https://doi.org/10.1001/jamainternmed.2014.8187

Laukkanen, T., Kunutsor, S., Kauhanen, J., & Laukkanen, J. A. (2017). Sauna bathing is inversely associated with dementia and Alzheimer’s disease in middle-aged Finnish men. Age and Ageing46(2), 245–249. https://doi.org/10.1093/ageing/afw212

Laukkanen, T., Laukkanen, J. A., & Kunutsor, S. K. (2018). Sauna Bathing and Risk of Psychotic Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study. Medical Principles and Practice27(6), 562–569. https://doi.org/10.1159/000493392

Dantzer, R., O’Connor, J. C., Freund, G. G., Johnson, R. W., & Kelley, K. W. (2008). From inflammation to sickness and depression: when the immune system subjugates the brain. Nature Reviews Neuroscience9(1), 46–56. https://doi.org/10.1038/nrn2297

Rosenblat, J. D., & McIntyre, R. S. (2016). Bipolar Disorder and Inflammation. Psychiatric Clinics of North America39(1), 125–137. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.psc.2015.09.006

Sæther, L. S., Ueland, T., Haatveit, B., Maglanoc, L. A., Szabo, A., Djurovic, S., Aukrust, P., Roelfs, D., Mohn, C., Ormerod, M. B. E. G., Lagerberg, T. V., Steen, N. E., Melle, I., Andreassen, O. A., & Ueland, T. (2023). Inflammation and cognition in severe mental illness: patterns of covariation and subgroups. Molecular Psychiatry28(3), 1284–1292. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-022-01924-w

Szabo, A., O‘Connell, K. S., Ueland, T., Sheikh, M. A., Agartz, I., Andreou, D., Aukrust, P., Boye, B., Bøen, E., Drange, O. K., Elvsåshagen, T., Engh, J. A., Hope, S., Collier Høegh, M., Joa, I., Johnsen, E., Kroken, R. A., Vik Lagerberg, T., Lekva, T., … Djurovic, S. (2022). Increased circulating IL-18 levels in severe mental disorders indicate systemic inflammasome activation. Brain, Behavior, and Immunity99, 299–306. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbi.2021.10.017
 
shargrol, modified 19 Days ago at 1/18/25 6:03 AM
Created 19 Days ago at 1/17/25 6:32 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 2827 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I'm starting a political party: we're pro-second breakfast, pro-siesta, and pro-sauna. Please join me. ;)

EDIT: I forgot, my mexican friend tells me that it's not enough to be pro-almuerzo, I also need to be pro-merienda --- so there will also be afternoon snacks and drinks. 

​​​​​​​Sheesh, maybe pro-apéritif as well? Sure, why not?
Olivier S, modified 18 Days ago at 1/18/25 1:22 PM
Created 18 Days ago at 1/18/25 1:22 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 1021 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
I'm in! I will have my beef rôti carpaccio tonight in your honor. Consider me available if any office needs to be filled...
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Actuality of Being, modified 18 Days ago at 1/19/25 8:05 AM
Created 18 Days ago at 1/19/25 8:05 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 10 Join Date: 1/11/25 Recent Posts
Chris M
This is a topic that asks DhO folks to reply in the form of telling your own story related to the differences and similarities between mediation (specifically insight practices) and psychology. This is something that pops up in almost everyone's practice.

Or... if it pops up, it pops up as a thought, in direct experience, which implies - this is something, and this something pops up in almost everyone's practice. 

It's a confusing area, and we sometimes use insight practices to solve psychological problems, and vice versa. This presents a conundrum - which set of tools to use, and what kind of person to ask for help?

Perhaps that is, rightfully, the confusion.As if now it's not a thought that popped up in direct experience - it's 'an area' - which 'we' sometimes use... to solve 'problems'. Now the thought that popped up in direct experience has seemed to define or become, a psychological problem, and so now there seems to need to be a solution, to this thought, which popped up in direct experience. A 'conundrum'. Which set of tools to 'use', what kind of person to ask for help - for this thought that popped up?


Here's my story:

I thought, at a certain point, that my meditation practice had provided me with all the tools necessary to address all manner of problems in my life. The honeymoon I had been experiencing after realizing a major insight was sweet, almost euphoric. I was, I thought, untouchable by any foible, emotional turmoil, external issue, or personal weakness. Nope.

Thoughts pop up, presently. Only. Isn't it so?
You, awareness, present & aware of thoughts popping up - are untouchable, and are appearing as the very thoughts. Presently (only), isn't it so? What is 'the problem' - presently? 


​​​​​​​Something came up soon enough, a work-related issue: a big industry lawsuit had been filed for which I was made the point person for making sure the company followed the requirements of various subpoenas, stayed within the bounds of legal requirements regarding external communications, and for providing any information in the physical and digital formats requested by all the lawyers and the court. Let alone being required to testify in numerous depositions. Being the focus of the attorneys on both sides of this thing drove me into a deeply anxious, worried mode. It was constantly on my mind, and I couldn't let go of this albatross hanging around in my thoughts. I couldn't shake the resulting emotions. This stuff was overwhelming me. Making me ill. I kept thinking I was supposed to be over this shit. I'd already conquered anxiety, right?

Perhaps the direct experience is more - focus is upon the thought, of 'being the focus of attorneys'?
Maybe it's the thought, which feels off', to you, awareness.
And more discord is felt with the thought, 'it was constantly on my mind'?
and also, maybe worry, an emotion was felt, and there is no 'worried mode'. 
'Worried mode' might just a thought that popped up, which feels discordant. 


Was this a case of my hard-won insights from meditation failing me?

Meditation is effortless, isn't is so? 
Presently, in direct experience, for whom is that "hard-won insights"? 
Maybe that thought, in & of 'itself' - is what feels off.


I desperately wanted to get out of the box I was in.

Simpler, effortless & easier to acknowledge the emotion worry, isn't it? 

But this was dredging up a long-standing personal issue that my practice hadn't addressed: fear of failure.

Same for (the emotion) fear, isn't it?
As in, it's how the thought, "failure", feels.


Not just a personal failure but a very public failure that could, so I believed, ruin my career and my reputation, my life.

Oh my!

Existential fear.

Oh geez! 

Fear of failure is, of course, unsatisfactory, impermanent, and not me. I knew that deeply. So, I tried going back to my noting practice every day.

Simpler, effortless & easier - to allow (the emotion) fear, to be felt, isn't it so?

I tried using the jhanas to relax out of my funk. I talked to my former meditation teacher, all to no avail. Turns out, this was a deep psychological issue that had been waiting to ambush me, resurfacing my anxiety and fear from pre-practice times - things I thought I'd overcome. Things I thought meditation has, and would, resolve! A foolish belief, that. Desperate, I tried something else.

Maybe there is not 'my anxiety'. Maybe the sensation dubbed 'anxiety', is how not acknowledging the already felt emotion, feels?
The 'desperate' and 'trying something else' - is really - aversion from allowing the emotion to be fully felt, isn't it so?
Lot of seemingly complexity seemingly ensues doesn't "it"?


I ended up spending time with a good therapist, which turned out to be useful in digging up some really deep, old wounds, tracing this from the dawn of (my) time into past strategies I'd created to hide my propensity to be afraid, to get others to see me as competent and courageous - and desperately do anything to prevent them from seeing me fail. But we all fail! If you can't stand to fail, deny failure. Go for constant perfection, and since that's literally impossible, you live your life with the fear that your failures will define you, reinforced by periodically falling off the cliff into more anxiety, worry, and fear. You will live a very safe but very boring life. It was psychology that brought me this particular piece of wisdom.

Check direct experience (effortless, easily and simply) - is fear an emotion, as in how some thoughts, beliefs or interpretations feel... or is there a self (in direct experience) which is or isn't, afraid? 

'We all fail' is one interpretation. Doesn't feel very aligned, or, true. 
'If you can't stand to fail, deny failure' is another interpretation. Also doesn't feel very aligned, or, true. 
Yes?
'And since x, y or z you live your​​​​​​​ life with the fear that your failures will define you...' is another interpretation, isn't it?
'Falling into worry or fear', is another interpretation, yes?
Whereas worry and fear are emotions. Simply, presently, and effortlessly felt, or not... as how the presently appearing (popping up) thoughts, beliefs or interpretations - feel. 


What are the issues that popped up in your life, post-practice, and that might help others when it happens to them. What helped you? Was it psychology, or meditation, or both?

There are no wrong answers, just stories.
Acknowledging, and allowing emotions to be felt. 
And therein, clarity, and interpretations to change. 

Much love! 
​​​​​​​♥️
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Chris M, modified 18 Days ago at 1/19/25 10:01 AM
Created 18 Days ago at 1/19/25 8:29 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 5604 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Thanks, but what's your story? What's your experience been when difficulties have arisen? 

You said --

Acknowledging, and allowing emotions to be felt. 
And therein, clarity, and interpretations to change. 

How's this working for you? Are you fully free from any sort of fear, anguish, pain, sadness, or anger?
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 17 Days ago at 1/19/25 8:58 PM
Created 17 Days ago at 1/19/25 8:58 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
Things cannot end with hardship, and so Release follows. Release means letting things take their time.
shargrol, modified 17 Days ago at 1/20/25 5:41 AM
Created 17 Days ago at 1/20/25 5:41 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 2827 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
(Out of curiousity, why are you quoting I Ching?)
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Jure K, modified 17 Days ago at 1/20/25 6:00 AM
Created 17 Days ago at 1/20/25 5:51 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 499 Join Date: 9/8/20 Recent Posts
From the age of 19 I had been struggling with crippling anxiety, intrusive thoughts and depression, during this time I had therapy with multiple psychologists. This was pre-meditation. With time, I learnt that thoughts were thoughts and nothing more, anything intrusive wasn't so intrusive anymore but I was still taking medication, drinking alcohol and not in the best psychological state.

Even in my late 20s I was still always restless with life, I had so many unanswered questions and just didn't get how people, myself included, built these ideas of themselves and how these ideas were supposed to be us. That's when I started to read about Buddhism, Daniels book and I started to meditate. Psychologically, I wasn't experiencing significant overt distress however I was very switched off and closed off, I avoided everything so as not to experience any distress.

So with that initial foray into therapy and some insight into thoughts, i had the idea that i had "worked" on my stuff. I really didn't know at the time but I was a deeply fearful individual and this really started to come out when I began meditating. However this time the fear was coming out as intense physical sensations in the body. It got worse and worse as I practiced but I knew if I kept going, there would be some benefit. In fact there was immediate benefit from meditation but it was temporary and my fearful disposition with basically everything was still very much there overall. It didn't help that there was this belief that meditation was supposed to fix everything and here i was, fearful as ever and very fragile. I was very confused and that's when I sought therapists, medications to help whilst meditating. Meds, therapists and this forum helped me see insights into psychological stuff clearer. Other limiting beliefs such as having to attain stream entry with an intense sense of urgency and the sense that I was only any good if I achieved stream entry or achieving anything else for that matter also produced tremendous amounts of suffering. I also noticed how nothing i did was really enjoyable, it was always a fucking mission trying to be "good" at everything which caused so many problems throughout my life.

During this time I had cessations, however immense fear still presented itself in the body. The cessations didn't make THAT much of a difference to how my fear was perceived at the time, however there was small but noticeable reductions in suffering as a result of understanding some limiting beliefs, which led to greater psychological well-being. I knew at this point there was alot of untangling to do and it was working, I just had to keep going.

Another example of how ive been helped with psychological suffering throughout my life, was when I broke my left arm 3 years ago. I never posted this in my practice log, as i couldnt assed. But I was in hospital for a month at the time of the inital injury, i had significant blood loss and went aneamic, they also isolated me from everyone else due to covid infection that i got while being in the hospital, which made it very difficult as i had no physical social contact. It was a compound, exposed fracture and required 2 plates and 12 screws to hold my left forearm together. It became so swollen that they couldn't close it and had to cut tissue out of my thigh and patch the gaping wound on my forearm with it. I have also been taking 2 different antibiotics for 3 years due to infection, as it was an exposed fracture. After 3 years one bone didn't heal the best and I needed a bone graft, this surgery required bone to be cut from my hip and implanted in the suspect bone. This was the last surgery that was done at the end of 2024 December. It's looking good now and plates are out and the arm is almost there. If it wasnt for my practice I'd be absolutely F'd!! However I've been ok throughout the ordeal and have maintained my practice. I even kept working, started a small business, developed my chosen skill set and got a certificate, with a broken bloody arm.

There have been other many other significant instances where practice has helped me psychologically, particularly with terrible workplaces, understanding relationships and understanding people too.

Fast forward 10 years later, present day i have noticed an immense reduction in suffering. Finally at 38 I feel as if these limiting belief systems have been dismantled, there is a big positive change in the perception of fear and even how fear and other emotions are felt within the body. Where that relates to exact path moments and how it relates to spiritual attainments or knowledge, I'm not sure, but I know something incredible has happened and it's definitely nothing euphoric. It had me absolutely speechless though when i started to notice the stillness, i couldnt believe it, I was dumbfounded. The immense intensity of stuff arising has subsided but that's not to say that "negative emotions" don't come up. They're not seen as negative as they were perceived to be before, I see them as just another side of a coin, immensely important and if integrated and understood will bare great understanding of a situation and myself.

To say I'm grateful for meditation is an understatement, when I think back to how much I suffered as result of my psychology/life it brings a tear to my eye. I know more bad stuff will happen in my lifetime however I'm much more prepared at getting myself through those situations. The process has been truly truly worth the confusion and difficulty, it saved my life and also made the lives of the people around me better.
shargrol, modified 17 Days ago at 1/20/25 9:57 AM
Created 17 Days ago at 1/20/25 9:57 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 2827 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Wow, what a story Jure K - thanks for sharing it!
Hector L, modified 17 Days ago at 1/20/25 10:35 AM
Created 17 Days ago at 1/20/25 10:35 AM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 147 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
I combined the two approaches.

The mental model I am using comes from a combination of the Buddhist trikaya model as well as the Mandukya Upanishad's classification of consciousness as wake, dream and deep sleep.

​​​​​​​For me meditation works on the boundary of wake and dream and sometimes deep sleep and Jungian analysis works on the subconscious dream realm and less so that on the more subtle states. I treat meditative insight as if it was a lucid dream prompt and the meditation experience as if it was a dream. So the experience I regard metaphorically and try to relate the meditation experience as a sequence of cause and effects. The causes being the reading material of whatever sutra or teaching as the dream prompt and the experience like a dream to be understood using metaphors during Jungian analysis. It has worked for me so far and helped me understand a lot of yogic texts and sutras.
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 16 Days ago at 1/20/25 2:20 PM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/20/25 2:20 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
I learned it at burning man, and i like to do it for folks to try and help them out
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Jure K, modified 16 Days ago at 1/20/25 4:15 PM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/20/25 4:15 PM

RE: Stories About Meditation & Insight vs Psychology

Posts: 499 Join Date: 9/8/20 Recent Posts
No problems, and thank you to you and many others on this forum, you helped me so much.

I'm still gobsmacked at the change, it's as if fear, grief and other emotions barely even register in the body, instead they're experienced as micro expressions or something. Incredible

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