Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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Noah D, modified 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 5:51 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 5:19 PM

Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

Posts: 1227 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
In this time stamped youtube link, Stephen Snyder says that cessations must be 30 minutes long to qualify as a true awakening. I thought this was interesting as I have not heard it before. My suspicion is that it comes from the the Pa Auk lineage as opposed to the Mahasi lineage. Or perhaps it is his novel theory since he refers to his "working model." 

I personally don't believe that the duration of a cessation relates to the degree of purification or transformation that occurs.  I think it really depends on where someone is in their practice and life as a whole, across multiple lines of development such as cognitive, emotional, perceptual, etc.  I have heard that traditional Mahasi training includes lengthening cessations.  But they also teach things like metta jhanas to advanced students, so it's definitely not the only mechanism of deepening insight in that lineage.  There's also a gap in the logic for me: if cessation is an experience of the unconditioned, why would time passed in the outside world make a difference?

Curious what others think about Stephen's statements in the video.

Edit: While Mahasi Sayadaw does advise one to train in lengthening cessations, these occur after the fruition knowledge and are part of the review knowledge and the phase of integration.  See the section on Attainment of Fruition here.  So it would not be the case that 30 minute cessations are required for one to attain the fruit of awakening according to the teachings of Mahasi Sayadaw.  But it may be the case that longer cessations can help with further deepening and integration, according to the Mahasi tradition.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 5:53 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 5:51 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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He's moving the goalposts so he can claim greater realization. "My cessation was longer than your cessation, padawan." 
 
But seriously, I don't think it matters much, if at all.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 6:21 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 6:21 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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According to my old teacher Kenneth Folk, only the thick-headed (those too dense) need these cessations to break their ignorant nutcracker emoticon The worst students so to speak emoticon Those who just don't get it easily. So I guess Stephen is heavy-handedly heavy-headed if he needs a 30 minutes long cessation to awaken emoticon 

​​​​​​​May we all dandy and all that! emoticon 
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Noah D, modified 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 7:28 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 7:26 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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Papa Che Dusko
According to my old teacher Kenneth Folk, only the thick-headed (those too dense) need these cessations to break their ignorant nutcracker emoticon


that's interesting. Was Kenneth saying that in relation to all cessations or only those of longer duration ? 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 8:24 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 8:24 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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Actually, no mention of "duration" in cessations, as you might well know emoticon there is no way to tell how long it lasted (Path Moment). He was referring more to the many people he has met during his teaching life and that showed him that some people he considers fully awakened, have never had a cessation, nor did they claim attainments, nor did they have jhanic states. In his opinion all this meditative stuff is not necessary for all, hence some work well with the Direct Path model etc ... I do remember him clearly suggesting to me that I don't need these 4 Paths to awaken (this was pre SE) but its good to have them if Im to ever teach this stuff to students (whatever he was alluding to back then).

It kind of makes sense to me that some beings might be more dense (karmic load) and have hard times "getting the cosmic joke", while others are less dense and can "recognise" THIS as an "Aha" moment. If we talk Suttas there are occasions where Buddha was giving a Dhamma speech and some in the audience would awaken from just listening to his teaching. Not sure they had a "Cessation", short or long emoticon 

But we are allowed to imagine things and say stuff like; this sudden awakening might be due to these beings being reborn as a past life Sotapanna or what the 2nd path name is ... and for them it was easy to "get it" etc ... We can speculate about all this. 
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Noah D, modified 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 9:53 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 9:46 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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Papa Che Dusko:
Actually, no mention of "duration" in cessations

Interesting, thanks 
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Noah D, modified 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 9:55 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 9:54 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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Chris M"My cessation was longer than your cessation, padawan." 

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Siavash ', modified 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 10:39 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 10:39 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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Every time there is a number, you can throw other numbers too.
Why 30 minutes? Why not 29 minutes and 47 seconds? What is so different about the number 30? Sounds so absurd, I think.
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Jure K, modified 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 11:16 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 11:16 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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I had cessations probably 7 years ago just little blips and they would reoccur throughout daily life. But the fear that came within the same 7 years was also immense! I really cannot remember the last time I've had a cessation, I've had the part that comes after it, the glow, but even that has dimished significantly. However, the immense, terror, guilt, grief is gone. Normal emotions are still present but the perception of them is very different and I haven't had a cessation in forever. Who cares
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 1/1/25 8:00 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/1/25 8:00 AM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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Jure K, modified 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 6:32 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 6:32 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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Alleluia!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 6:36 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 6:36 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

Posts: 3342 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
"I haven't had a cessation in forever. Who cares"

the cow protecting her calf might! emoticon 
T DC, modified 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 8:32 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 8:29 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

Posts: 532 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
What I experienced as cessation - and seems in line with standard definitions of it in these parts - occurred wholly of its own accord.  Thus there could be no true intentional "lengthening" of it.  The idea of control over the cessation process actually seems antithetical to its basic point.

It also occurred as a split second experience, and thus what a true extension of it would involve is unclear.

Frankly I would assume anyone talking about 30 minute cessation events has a definition of cessation closer to formless realm experience than a momentary total blinking out of perception.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 9:08 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 9:08 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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Amen emoticon 

Putting "cessation" and "time" in the same basket is hilarious to me emoticon (in my "not-experience")
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Jure K, modified 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 11:12 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 11:12 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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Besides the time in cessation thing, I think re reading the 4 noble truths would be of benefit to people. And most notably asking the fricken question, Is your practice reducing suffering? What are the perceived benefits?
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Jure K, modified 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 11:40 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/2/25 11:40 PM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

Posts: 499 Join Date: 9/8/20 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko
"I haven't had a cessation in forever. Who cares"

the cow protecting her calf might! emoticon 
Hey Dusko! So maybe we should stop protecting the calf?
Eudoxos , modified 1 Month ago at 1/3/25 6:48 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/3/25 5:10 AM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

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It makes sense that longer cessation would be more beneficial — looking at it from the side of the brain having much more time to rewire under perfect conditions — WHEN compared to a shorter cessation under otherwise identical conditions (inside+outside). So it is speculative.

The Thai-Mahasi lineage (started in the 50s by Mahasi-chosen Burmese emisar to Thailand, later known as Bhaddanta Asabha Mahathera, and Mahasi-trained Thai monk later known as Ajahn Jodok, who was teaching in Wat Mahathat) extends what Mahasi was teaching perhaps less formally, as the extended fruitions as a part of the standard training protocol - exercise 13 is for the path (stream-entry), exercise 14 for reviewing cessations, exercise 15 for extended cessations (5 minutes up to 24 hours), all this through resolutions. This structure is present in similar form in courses in the AJahn Tong sub-lineage (he was Jodok's student).

The legend in Chom Tong was that when Ajahn Tong (the abbot) would meet with other high ranking monks in the temple, they would kick off the meeting with 1 hour cessation to have clear minds, and then talk business. The same Ajahn Tong, however, said at one occasion that it was the quality of cessation (=fruition, in the context) and not the duration which was important.

As a side note, I think most monks in Asia would be encouraged to absorb wide range of meditation techniques later in their training, Mahasi or elsewhere (there might be exceptions like Pa Auk), including brahmaviharas, jhanas and other.

And then, almost traditionally, the video title says nirodha-samāpatti = NS (attainment of cessation (of feeling and perception)) but then speaks about fruition attainment (phala-samāpatti) = ñ15. I've never had NS, but manuals like Visudhimagga clearly distinguish these two (as does Jodok here), and MCTB2 describes in detail different phenomenology before and after. Is it hair-splitting? If not, why this confusion?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 1/3/25 5:52 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/3/25 5:52 AM

RE: Stephen Snyder - 30 Minute Cessation

Posts: 3342 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
To reboot a computer with lots of junk it will take far more time to do, than one with less junk emoticon Hence I prefer Kenneth Folk's view on dense persons vs less dense persons. Karmic loads vary. Those minds in need for long cessations simply had far more karmic junk to reboot. 

Yes its all assumptions on our part! emoticon But its fun! 

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